Müller trouser draft and toile

[Gerry]

It's certainly better, but there's still room for improvement.

The waistband still needs to look a little straighter, only on a slight tilt. As is, it dips down slightly once past the side seams. Slip the band down a tiny bit lower at the sides/top of the hips.

A small amount of cloth needs to be picked up into the waistband at the back. It's still being pushed down a little. Particularly on the right side. It could be that you need to compromise a little on the right side (don't expect patterns to turn out symmetrical).

Your darts are a little too far to the sides for my liking. The don't have to be very long with low rise trousers (in fact you want them short), but it does help if they point to the fullest part of the seat (yours are to the sides of that area).

I'm sure others will chip in with further observations, but those are a few things to be getting on with.

[Trouser Snake]

Gerry, it's starting to get really messy. I feel like I've been going around in circles the past 100 days. I have pulled off the waist band again and unpicked the darts. I guess I can move them a centimeter towards the middle. That would be a start. I'll drop the seam where the waist band meets the trouser side seam by a centimeter, and maybe drop the waist band seam at the back 5 mm. I'll see what that does.

These trousers have me worried. It's like a car which looks ok at a glance, but underneath the paint job, has a load of body filler and welded bits. I am thinking about starting again with yet another Müller draft....

[Gerry]

I have pulled off the waist band again and unpicked the darts. I guess I can move them a centimeter towards the middle. That would be a start.

Typically, darts are about midway between the side seam and CB. They can be placed more towards the side seam - especially with low rise, because the darts are more about helping the cloth to curve round the seat rather than shaping the small of the back too - but not excessively. Personally, I'd keep them short and reign them in a little, more towards the CB (certainly more than a cm).

I'll drop the seam where the waist band meets the trouser side seam by a centimeter

Pinch out the cloth while wearing them so that the vertical length is pulled up a little. Either gauge how much you pinched, or pin it and measure. That will give you an idea of how much to lower the rise at the back of your pattern. Again, it could be that each side of your body requires a different amount. Some asymmetry is common in most people.

These trousers have me worried. It's like a car which looks ok at a glance, but underneath the paint job, has a load of body filler and welded bits. I am thinking about starting again with yet another Müller draft....

Don't start another draft, you'll only face the same problems. To reiterate what has already been said, there is no one magic draft to fit everyone. You are always going to have to adapt a draft to the peculiarities of your body, based on observations and adjustments made during fittings.

You're already getting there, things are improving, don't abandon ship. It may turn out that, once you're finished, you don't like the style and then decide to try a higher-rise draft with more leg room. But if you stick with this project and get the fit right, you'll not only have learnt loads, but that knowledge can be taken forward, resulting in a quicker resolution of the problems that will inevitably occur on your next project.

[peterle]

Don't start a new one, you are pretty near. Fitting a right pair of pants US one of the most challeging tasks, especially when fitting youself.
The things I see:
Front:
There is a bit of bulging width at the crotch.
To relax I would elongate the waistline about 1cm at the zip and fade in the zip line to the existing curve. To keep the front waistline the same length, take some mm at the side seam and ease the rest in when sewing the waistband, (The waistline should always be a bit longer than the waistband for a better hold up)
Back:
There is a bulging length under the butt.
Mark a Point on the inseam about 7cm below the crotch tip. Draw a line from this point to the point where the hip line crosses the outseam. Slash the line keeping a small hinge at the outseam. Overlap the slash 2cm at the inseam. This operation takes some length from under the butt and makes the underside less slanted, it also shortens the back inseam, you have to stretch it with the iron. (For the toile: Open the inseam from knee upwards, sew a dart like above, stretch the back inseam and resew it).

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for your help Peterle. I will make some changes to this toile. I understand the back alteration, but I am not entirely sure what you mean with the front. My trouser currently has no waistband on it and the darts have been unpicked. I will continue for the learning experience but I must confess, it sounds like open heart surgery.

[peterle]

Your center front line is quite slanted at the moment. The top of the zip pulls the fronts towards the center. Thus the fabric below (crotch line) also accumulates at the center. Reducing the slant by adding 1-1,5cm at the belly point allows the fabric to distribute better.


Wavy line means easing in.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for the drawing. It really helps.

I unpicked the inseam stiching above the knee. I folded my paper pattern to have a look what the effect of that dart would do and can see it pulls the centre back more into the middle and upright. It makes the tilt of the upper back trouser less. I sewed the dart, 7 cm down on the inner leg, 1 cm each side of that line, and up to the seat line where it meets the outer leg seam. I still need to sew the darts and put the waist band on, but, I have slipped them on and I am impressed at what a difference this has made. Here is a photo of me holding them up just to see what the back now looks like.




I will make the front adjustments in the morning. It is after midnight here now. I will take another look at the waist band line and get the back to front tilt right. I am glad I have persisted with this one. Thanks everyone for the education!

[Trouser Snake]

So I have had some difficulties. I tried to make the adjustment to the front fly, but the seam allowance was already trimmed too narrow. I chopped out the fly area in a square either side to the crease line on each leg and inserted a new piece of calico in that area. The problem was when the trousers were reassembled, they didn't sit flat. So I decided to make two new front legs. I drew the new centre front angle 1 cm towards the fly either side, and took about 5 mm from the side seam at the outer lef top. After I sewed the legs together to each other, I ripped one of the legs turning it right way round at the cut notch bottom of zipper. No amount of iron on patching could save it.....

So, tomorrow, it is off to the shop for more calico. I am going to have to make a completely new toile. I'll draft the back again with a new angle like the ones I made with the huge diagonal darts. That wedge made the back leg inseams shorter than the fronts by 2 cm. Not sure what to do about that. Take 2 cm off the fronts? Or just steam it? I have kind of lost what little progress I had made. I am going to have to start again. 

[Gerry]

That wedge made the back leg inseams shorter than the fronts by 2 cm. Not sure what to do about that. Take 2 cm off the fronts? Or just steam it?

I think you said earlier that you'd increased the inseam length. Double check your inside leg measurement, just to make sure that you didn't inadvertently make it too long. That could in part account for the extra length beneath the crotch line; though one would expect it at the front too. Which begs the question, are you including balance points when sewing your toiles? It's important to get the positions of back and front pieces precise, relative to each other. Apologies if you've already been doing this, but I have to ask.

Otherwise, it's over to peterle and others for advice (I have no knowledge of the Müller systems)

[posaune]

When I draft I take 1 - 1.5 cm (with wool): I stretch  the back inseam with the iron. (And if you work with say 1.5 cm slant you may get the same results and do not have the difficulties. Your slant factor was 0.8?)
I attach a pic from the default draft. the front inseam is about  32.96 the back inseam ist about 32.56 and measured the distance I have 0.47cm. Because of the bias in the back I can stretch that easil


lg
posaune

[Trouser Snake]

Hello Gerry. I do mark and match up the hem, knee, hip and waist lines on the fronts and backs. I think I might have said I increased the inseam because it was too low on one of the toiles. I measured again and pushed the tape measure right up there.

Posaune, thanks for the drawing. I have found with the Müller drafts that when constructing the back inseam, you subtract 0.7 cm from whatever the front measures. I have been doing that. Although the wedge/dart I took out of the back legs from 7 cm below the crotch line helped with the fit, it did take 2 cm from the back inseam. I was able to steam it and stretch it when I rejoined that seam.

I am not sure which way to go now. I am almost thinking about redrafting another pattern onto paper using the skinny fit Müller block but straightening that outer leg curve more. Either way I need to get some more supplies.

EDIT: I have just checked. I have drawn a Skinny Fit Müller pattern without that 2 cm creaseline shift, and I did change the body rise from 22 cm to 20 cm. I have not cut a toile from this yet. As I appear to like cutting hundreds of toiles, I might try this, and then go through the fitting process. I just feel with the othe Adam of London copy, I was making things up and getting myself in more trouble than need be.

[Trouser Snake]

Hello all. I have cut and sewn another toile using the instructions in the Müller trouser book. It is the Skinny Fit block. I am not a fan of the side seam, particularly where it curves and meets the waist band. I knew I didn't like it when I had drawn it but for the sake of religiously following the instructions, I went with it. My toile has 2 cm seam allowance all around with 5 cm on the cuff, 1.5 cm either side of the fly and 3 cm above the waist band.

Here are some drawings for your consideration. The previous 'Adam of London' pattern based upon the pulled apart pair of trousers I have here (illustrated in green) versus the new Müller Skinny Fit draft (illustrated in black keyline).

Althought the outer leg curves on the front are somewhat similar, the trouser backs are different. I am wondering if it would work if I changed the back trouser outer leg curve at the top to a flatter line as seen on the Adam pattern? Add say 0.5 cm to 1 cm to the outer edge where it meets the waistband. Also, would I then take 0.5 cm to 1 cm from the centre back seam? I have a bit of looseness/excess cloth there. Maybe the angle needs to be more slanted?

And one other thing. What about the crotches on the new fronts and backs? They look quite different compared to my Adam draft previously.

I will iron and put on the toile and upload some photos in a moment to show you where I am up to.

Thanks, Stephen

[Trouser Snake]

Photos of the recent toile. Müller Skinny Fit, pg 28 Trouser book. Pinned on the fly as the zip is not completely sewn in yet.

Your thoughts and advice appreciated.

[posaune]

Better! the back trouser is not drawn into the (Spalt??? Word )anymore. The hip lines goes a bit up at the center back and falls down in center front. (As far as I can see) Not much maybe 1 cm. So it is nearly in balance
I would increase the front: fronttrouser width = 1/4 Hipcirc. This will relax the front a bit. And relaese the front tip of the inseam a bit.
and decrease the back pants = 1/4 hipcirc + 0.5. Maybe take a away at inseam tip.
You have a flat rear.
lg
posaune

[Gerry]

Yes, much better, your persistence has paid off.

You have 'cat's whiskers' at the CF crotch line, suggesting that the crotch is a little short in width. The front fork needs to be a little longer to release that tension.