Müller trouser draft and toile

[posaune]

I fully agree with Peterle. These are minor problems and done after the fitting. Don´t you fret. If you need more in front than in back... so what? I can give you a pic how it is done.

lg
posaune
And as I said before it would be easier if we could see your whole sideview to analyse your posture. I think that is part of your difficulties.

[Trouser Snake]

Thank you both. I still have the 104 cm HG front pattern, and a mostly completed back pattern. After struggling with a hip curve on the back, I decided to try something else and I have just drafted yet ANOTHER pattern... , this time it is using exactly the dimensions in the book. It has a HG of 102 cm. The hip curve is so much better, plus, I have more crotch diameter. The only issue is, the waist measurement is 92 cm and I am 90 cm. I am hoping when I cut and sew them this evening, they might be a good fit... apart from the waistband being 2 cm too wide... but I will deal with that later.

If this doesn't work out, I will need to go back to the 104 cm draft, and somehow deal with an ugly back trouser hip curve problem. I should draw this and post pictures so you can see what I mean.

I will post some photos when I have sewn this, and give you some good side view photographs.

[posaune]

The issue maybe that the draft is shortened sitting more on the hip.
If you have difference between 90 (Waist) and 102 or even a 104 hip and get a "hippy" back I have difficulties to imagine. But I am used to ladies measurements.
I give you a pic how to egalise the side seams. I overdid it a bit and only roughly - here the front is very "hippy" First the draft. I shifted the front trouser to the side. Centered the difference at side seam and drafted a new side seam in light blue. Then I subtracted from front and added to the back and draftet a new center line



lg
posaune

[Trouser Snake]

Yes, I am still here!

Well, I cut through another 4 meters of calico. I tried a few things and did some study. I pulled apart one of my last two bought pairs of trousers and did some measurements; made some observations. I have been thinking a lot about the centre back seam, the crotch shape.

Anyway, the one I am presenting here is the closest I have got to a fit. This is based upon the skinny fit Müller block, with a few changes. I have looked at the difference between this block and the skinny fit jean block, also found in the book. Main differences are the crotch shape and width and the angle of the back waistline. I noted that the outer leg of the jean was a lot straighter than in the trouser block. After making the toile I unpicked the outer leg and redrew it, and also shifted the seam line 2 cm towards the front (thanks posaune!). I think you are right about drafting the outer leg seam straight Gerry. It took a while to get this idea into my head!

Ok, so it isn't perfect. You will be able to see better than I where it can be improved. I have 3.5 cm seams all around so could accomodate most alterations. Please let me know what you think. Thanks.

[peterle]

Well. The good thing first. The crotch diameter seems to be right now.

In your last pics I recognized that lifting your arms change the fit. For future pics please let your arms hang ad just bend the elbows.

Obviously you did change the fronts a lot. They are out of balance. Look at the creases. They bow inwards dramatically towards the waistline. Also the hip lines meet in a dramatic chevron. This tells me you took out too much at the front center seam. This causes a diagonal pull.The pockets will gape. And it would look terrible with stripes or checks.

When you like experimenting, open the waist seam and the side seam of a front part till the hip line and open the zip. Get in the pants, close the waistband and look what happens when you move the loose front more towards the outside or to the inside.

Do the alteration of post 50. At least 1,5cm. Make a short dart instead of easing in.

The alteration of post 82 will clean the back a bit.

[Trouser Snake]

Thank you peterle. I did change the centre front zip angle. On the toile I posted in post 76, I angled the zip 1 cm towards the outer leg at the waistline. This was the instruction with the Müller book. On this most recent toile, I angled this line a FURTHER 1.7 cm towards the outside... so, 2.7 cm total! This is why it is pulling those crease lines towards the centre front! It is so obvious to me now that you have pointed this out. I was doing this to compensate for the straightening of the side seam, or so I thought.

I will unpick some stitching on these and get into them and see what happens. I will make the alterations and post some photographs.

[Trouser Snake]

Here is a photo the front pattern from post 76, compared with what I did to this current one. I cut 1.7 cm from the centre front and added it to the side to straighten the side seam.

[Gerry]

On this most recent toile, I angled this line a FURTHER 1.7 cm towards the outside... so, 2.7 cm total!

This thread is too long to find my post, but I'm pretty sure I said that the angling should be no more than half an inch, otherwise it causes problems (as you've discovered). Apologies if I didn't say this (might have been another, recent thread).

You're getting there.

[Edit] I just remembered, it was in the following thread:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,1511.msg11733.html#msg11733

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks Gerry for your input, and I am sorry this has gone on for so long. You think I would have learnt my lesson by now. I am indeed learning by making these mistakes.

In my 20 toile marathon since June, I have figured out a few things. I don't want that curve to the outer leg which I seemed hell-bent on drafing, again and again. I am not really one for pleats either. What I would like is a flat front trouser with just a single small dart to the back.

I am after something quite minimal really. There isn't much to a pair of trousers. Just two parts; a front and a back, and those seams! I am both astounded at how difficult this is and in awe at those who have put in the hours and mastered this.

I will give this another go.

[Gerry]

The only way we learn is through making mistakes, so no need to apologise. The important thing is learning from them.

You need some curvature to the hips, and going by memory nothing you've posted has had excessive curvature, so perhaps you're obsessing too much about this issue?

That aside, if you do want a straighter side seam you have a few options:

1 Shift the crease line of the leg towards the side seam a little (as with that 2cm shift in the other Muller draft).

2 Increase the width of the fronts slightly in order to straighten the side seams, then take out that excess either in the form of a front dart, or a gather - the gather being taken into the waistband. In the case of the latter, keep the extra width small so that it isn't noticeable once gathered in. Many tailors like to do this anyway, locally, near the hips, because the slight ease helps prevent pockets from gaping.

[Hendrick]

Perfect Gerry, especially with a straighter center front like you suggest... Now here's how I measure the surplus waist width to gather...  Put the top sides of your front and back parts together and align. Take a piece of silk paper the width of the waistband and make the bottom line of it follow the waisline of the joined parts. Now fold in the excess in the paper band from the top of the band to the waistline to find the excess to gather. For a trouser with Italian (slanted) pockets, start gathering abt an inch "before" the pocket opening till abt an inch "after" the side seam.  Press the waistband to form. Clearly, this works best with a classic, bias cut waistband facing. Following the two thumb rule'you will be able to slide your two thumbs into the front waist to arrange your shirt, but your your trousers will sit at your hipbones nevertheless... I first went back to this working on 70's style flatfront pants for women...

Cheers, Hendrick 

[posaune]

Oh oh I admire your patience! When you have time (between sewing a new toile) have a look at HandemadePhD. In her Reference guide/ table of contents you will find many chapters about trousers and grainlines .
lg
posaune
example:
https://handmadephd.com/2021/03/13/crease-line-placement-at-the-hips/

[Gerry]

Oh oh I admire your patience! When you have time (between sewing a new toile) have a look at HandemadePhD. In her Reference guide/ table of contents you will find many chapters about trousers and grainlines .
lg
posaune
example:
https://handmadephd.com/2021/03/13/crease-line-placement-at-the-hips/

Interesting reading, but I stopped after a while. It's nuts that her crotch width changes with every repositioning of the crease line. It seems that the distance between the crease placement and the side seam is kept static and taken out in the other direction to the fork tip, no matter what; because typically the crease is half the distance between the fork tip and side seam?

I may have misunderstood (apologies to the lady if that's the case), but I think this goes back to what I was saying earlier in this thread: determining the crease position based on an estimate (fork width) doesn't make sense. She's sort of doing things in reverse - estimating crotch width depending on the exact positioning of the crease line - but it kind of invalidates some of her findings. I prefer to position the crease relative to the CF (fly-line), or vice versa, maintaining the crotch width at its ideal measurement. Obviously the leg should fall where it needs to fall, but by following the basic principle I mentioned, repositioning of the crease - as with the Muller draft's displacement of 2cm - is a little more forgiving if the crotch width doesn't change correspondingly.

What have I missed?? 

[Hendrick]

You missed nothing Gerry. Here's the thing, men put on weight disproportionally (had to type that twice, early morning). Most algoritms in drafts are based on ideal proportions. You are correct in questioning the position of the creaseline in relation to the diameter in a pant. Or better; in relation to the thigh circumference, because that is what this is about. If I put on 10 percent of waist width (god forbid), it is extremely improbable that I will also put on 10 percent of thigh width. And there we go. Ideally the creaseline will visibly run down to the middle of your front thigh. By adding to the centerfront and using the "ideal" algorithm, your creaseline will move too far away from the center of your front leg towards the center front. This will also result in a frontleg that (at least for my tastes) becomes too curved at the sides. So basically it is all about the relation between the waist and thigh widts.

Cheers, Hendrick