Müller trouser draft and toile

[Trouser Snake]

Gerry, I would have stuck with the 'mod shops' had their quality not gone down the crapper. But where does one go at age 58 from mod 'cosplay'?    A: Bespoke

I have pulled apart an old pair of Adam of London trousers. Here are some photos comparing my current draft with the pulled apart trousers. The crease lines are aligned. I can see some similarities. Their outside leg curve on the back is straighter as it reaches the waistband. Dart is in a different location. Also different angle to the centre back seam. It is as if they have shaved a little wedge off this and glued it to the outside leg thus straightening the outer curve at the top. Also, wider front crotch; narrower back crotch.

See what you think...

[Gerry]

In general, the Adam trousers seem to have a tiny amount more ease, which is no bad thing. The fly is slightly angled, which is commonly done when trousers don't have pleats. It pushes the sides seam a little further out, which helps to prevent excessive curving over the hips. If the front is anything to go by, the leg is a little more parallel/stovepipe in shape than your own draft. It's a look that I favour.

If the trousers fitted you well, then there's no shame in copying the cut. Just be sure to leave inlay, so that you can amend any minor fitting issues that perhaps you weren't happy with. On the other hand, if there were issues with the cut that annoyed you, then keep up the drafting/toiles.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for the analysis. With the Adam trousers, do you have any comments regarding the straightend top of the back trouser side seam, in comparison to the front? To me it appears that by adding a cm to the outside leg at the top to straighten that curve, they have taken a bit off the centre back seam, which would round the bum a bit?

I guess it wouldn't hurt basing a pattern on that Adam pair, and making a toile. It might give me some experience and something to think about with my own pattern. I do want to learn to draft my own though. I was trained as an Illustrator and have a technical style. I really enjoy the drafting process.

[Hendrick]

I am an avid wearer of slim line slacks, but they should permit a button fly... What this trouser (not the pattern) appears to do is give room where needed; to the front crotch and leg, allowing you to sit down without pulling the back of your trouser down.Further, it exploits the part bias on the center back of the trouser (like in jeans), so less diameter in the back but natural stretch from the tilted fabric. Lastly if you plot hip position top down on the side back part you see that it drops below the construction line of your pattern, making for a cleaner sideseam. Agreed with Gerry about the volume of the lower leg; no matter how narrow, you still want fall and drape for a mens'trouser...

Cheers, Hendrick

[Hendrick]

Was going to post this earlier...

[Trouser Snake]

Hey Hendrick, that's cool. Just one button on the jacket? Interesting. I must confess I like three myself! My favourite era is the sixties, before the flower power thing. Some nice sharp suits back then. Maybe one day I'll be able to make one... Thanks

[Gerry]

With the Adam trousers, do you have any comments regarding the straightend top of the back trouser side seam, in comparison to the front? To me it appears that by adding a cm to the outside leg at the top to straighten that curve, they have taken a bit off the centre back seam, which would round the bum a bit?

In ready-to-wear, garments are finalised on models or mannequins, so patterns end up as whatever looked right during the fitting process. It's possible that Adam simply copied some vintage trousers and graded them, but the original manufacturer would have gone through that process, no doubt. There's no one way to draft trousers. All cutters have their idiosyncrasies and a lot of shaping is done by intuition - 'rock of eye' based on years of experience. In short, I don't know. 

To be honest, I haven't cut trousers the tradition way in a long time, so I don't even remember a lot of the 'rules'. I no longer take the back side seam out at an angle. Instead it's an exact facsimile of the front's side seam. I create a rise line to angle the waist up to the CB (which keeps things towards the bias over the seat), then take a side-in approach for the rest of the draft (the fronts are constructed in the conventional way). It's a combination of old and new. In Regency times, 'pantaloons' were cut from the side inwards, though often the side seams were literally straight lines, much like classic/selvedge-seam jeans today. I prefer a little shaping and more accurate leg placement, but I favour the straighter cut that results from this alternative approach.

The real advantage is that ease is distributed over the seat and inner thighs, where it's needed, rather than accumulating at the sides, where it tends to catch on the hips. The drape is more on the inseam, which not only hangs more naturally, due the inverted V shape of the legs (nothing to catch on), but it's also less noticeable: we tend to recognise shape by the external lines - which is why we talk of shapely hips/thighs/waists; and also why we speak of silhouette  - the internal stuff is secondary detail (nobody ever said, "Phwoar, nice inside leg!").

[Trouser Snake]

I have made some progress. Using the trousers I pulled apart as a reference, I drafted a pattern using the method I have learnt in the Müller book.

In the book, the back trouser is drafted from the front trouser. There are a couple of 'flexible' measurements in the construction of the back. One is the distance up from the front trouser hip line, used to plot the angle of the diagonal line upon which the centre back seam is established. The book mentions between 2 to 3 cm above the hip. I found to make a pattern which was close to my pulled apart trousers, 5 mm was used (drawn in red in my diagram).

The other flexible measurement is the amount you shift the point to the right of the crease line. The point from which the half of the total back trouser width is measured to either side (drawn in blue on my diagram). From these measurements the back trouser crotch width is plotted. The book suggests between 1 and 1.5 cm. My measurement was 0.5 cm. It seemed to match my trousers.

There is only one other flexible measurement. This is the purple line on my diagram. The left purple measurement is plotted to the right with 1 to 1.5cm added. This determines the length/height of the centre back seam.

After drafting the pattern I discovered a few things didn't match. When I ironed the pieces of trouser to interfacing, things must have got a little twisted. I think this has caused some miscalculations on my part. Although the outer legs feel a lot better to wear, there is some excess fabric in that centre back seam. I hope this can be seen from the photographs.

The question I have is how to correct this? I believe the problem is in that centre back seam. Maybe the angle is wrong? Is the whole top section of the trouser leaning too far to the outside? If I raised the starting point of the red line up to 2 to 3 cm, it will change the centre back angle. It would also mean the outer leg line in the back would have to be brought in towards the centre back, thus keeping the waist measurement correct.

If anyone has a suggestion or comment, I'd appreciate it. I am not sure which way to tilt the upper back or that centre back crease line to reduce the excess drape in the centre back. Overall though, I think this is the closest I have got to a trouser which fits.

Thanks.

[posaune]

well, I think the back pants needs to come up (The hip line is sagging down) and then you need a bigger tip of the inseam (the pants gets dragged into the rear). The crotch diameter is too small. Measure it.
lg
posaune

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for replying.

The crotch diameter? Do you mean the back trouser crotch width? This is the Total Crotch Width (1/4 Hip Girth - 4 cm; which is 25 cm - 4 cm = 21 cm) minus the Front Trouser Crotch Width (1/10 of half the Hip Girth + 2 cm; which is 5 cm + 2 cm = 7 cm).... which means it is 14 cm. Is this what you meand by diameter, or is it something else. Sorry for the lack of knowledge.

Also, how do you mean the hip line is sagging down? The hip line on the back is drafted from the front like in the Müller books. If it is sagging, where have I gone wrong please? [see picture of Müller method]



Thank you Posaune!

[Gerry]

They're starting to shape up.

The waistband, in profile, looks a little odd. The front is being pushed down by your slight tummy, which gives it a kinked look.

As I mentioned earlier, you could probably do with undercutting the belly a little by bringing the height of the fronts down at the CF and reshaping things. Some adjustment at the side seams will probably be necessary too, in order to get a smooth, slightly tilted look to your waistband in profile. Chalk a nice line that looks right from front to back, while you're wearing the trousers, and use that as your seam line with the waistband. Don't cut away cloth, think of it as inlay (you might need it again if the adjustment doesn't look right).

As for the back, I think what posaune was saying is that there's a little too much length. As thinks stand, it looks like cloth is being pushed down below the waistband. That excess needs 'picking up' into the waistband. Again, don't cut away cloth you may need again later. Try pinning some of that excess out to see if matters improve, and to give you some idea as to where the new waistline seam will be.

[Greger]

Have you ever been in a real tailors shop? Not a store. Not a made to measure. A real tailors shop. Some of these tailors are looking over every detail of your body. They watch how you place your feet. They see what happens when you turn, bend over, movements of sitting, does the hem move up, and whatever else they can think of. If you are paying attention some you might wonder if they are gay (few are).Trousers that have no pressure points are extremely nice.
First things first. Fit. Not style, fashion or anything like that. When the fit is completed style, fashions, etc. are added.
The belly is contorting the fit. The seat seam is hollowed out too much. The slant of back is probably to much. The center back rise is high. The back darts are improper size for seat shape. Seat and hip width circumference- what if you have a larger seat and narrower hip width? Or,the other way around? How are you going to adjust the pattern for these?
Every person's body is different. This is why patterns don't work without some thoughts of correction. It is better to have generous inlays than cutting a new one, new one, new one.... Some tailors fit loose, so they can pin towards fit. Some chalk the amount they think the seam needs to move. Since they are basted, instead of sewn, some will rip out some basting and pin. Or, any combination that gets the job done.
Patterns supposedly get us into the ballpark. Since there are many figure shapes the patterns don't include (unless specialized pattern, that need changes to), tailors use methods of adapting. All the patterns you have shown have not included any adaption for the belly.
Book writers to find some answers. Poulin, Stone, some more American, Tailor and Cutter  (British) the German companies certainly have patterns that will fit you better. After fit style and fashions are easily added with a few adaptations.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks Greger. No I have not been to a real tailors shop. I am fairly new to this world, but eager to learn. It may have been naivety on my part but I was hoping if I followed the recipe closely, I'd end up with something which fits. It looks like it isn't as easy as that.

I bought the Müller trouser book to assist me in my quest, but I am missing some essential knowledge and experience. This is going to take me some time to figure out. Although as an artist, I have a very precise clean style; no amount of applying this to a pair of trousers will work if I cannot master fitting.

Today I tried on my recent toile. I rolled the waistband over on itself, shortening the rise. It took up a lot of that loose fabric in the back. I have a 38 mm wide piece of elastic I can join and slip over the trousers as a guide to chalking a waistband. To be honest, I would rather start again and get the draft closer to this elusive perfect fit, than have to pin and unpick and rebaste etc. Or is this all part of the job?

I intend to stick with this. I am not going to give up on it. I will do some experiments on the waist of the current toile today. Again, I do appreciate the help you are all offering. It is most generous of you.

So I continue with this toile, or do I start over again?

[Gerry]

To be honest, I would rather start again and get the draft closer to this elusive perfect fit, than have to pin and unpick and rebaste etc. Or is this all part of the job?

Greger is spot on. No draft is ever going to get you 100% close to your ideal fit. A pattern is always finalised through fittings. And that's no different for ready-to-wear: they use models and mannequins across the size range to check that their garment looks OK for most people. Drafts may seem very scientific, but in reality the methods are often based on estimates. Estimates designed to get a tailor up and running as quickly as possible so that they can get on with the real art of tailoring: fitting.

You'll only waste time and card in thinking that you can achieve all this through drafting alone. Leave inlay, fit to your body, correct your pattern based on observations and empirical testing (alterations). Don't be put off, you don't need to learn it all; not if you're only making stuff for yourself. You just need to figure out what changes are necessary to get a good fit for your body. If you do decide to take things further, then yes, studying the books is a must.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks Gerry. Yes, it is apparent that there is no secret recipe to this. I have massive respect to the tailors who do this every day and have mastered this art! And Greger, I downloaded a Poulin book and see what you are saying about patterns and fitting.

Today I read back through what you were saying about the waist band earlier. I made a big rubber band from elastic and slipped it over my trousers whilst wearing them. I drew  a line a couple of times on the toile and came up with a similar result each time.

I removed the waist band, drew the stitching line neater, and basted it back on with small stitches. At the front I have removed 2 cm following the previous stitching line subtle curve. At the side seams the line goes upward as it gets to the centre back where it is 1 cm lower than previously. Perhaps I need to remove more at the back, which might suggest then that my rise was over estimated to begin with. I did leave 2 cm inlay on the side seams front and back originally. I have cut nothing off the waistband in this recent alteration.

I still have the excess fabric in the centre back seam which I need to fix. Here are photos so far.