Müller trouser draft and toile

[Trouser Snake]

....and here are the pages with the discrepancy. I have emailed the publisher about this. They have been pretty good replying to other questions I had, so they should get back to me in the next day or so. They are on vacation. My German is slightly better than my bespoke tailoring skills.

Looking at their illustration, and measuring it, they have not moved that front crease line.

The images are from the email I sent them.

[Gerry]

Ok, it's nothing to do with what I was banging on about (though if anyone ever encounters that problem, everything I wrote still holds).

I'm pretty sure the 2cm shift is a compensation to ensure correct leg position. Many drafting systems simply divide the full width at the crotch line (fork tip to side seam) in two, and use that point to drop a perpendicular for the crease line/leg position. This wrongly assumes that the fork tips are snug against the inner thigh at crotch height. In reality, the tips of the forks are pulled into the gap between the legs in order to bridge it. So the true mid point is a little further along to the side seam. Hence the compensation (I'm assuming).

They don't seem to have followed their instructions on the diagram. Probably an oversight. They may have recycled an old draft, but forgot to amend the artwork.

[Trouser Snake]

Gerry, you might be right. It could be that the illustration is incorrect; as you say, an old draft.

I was going to try a several things...

I will alter the toile I posted originally.

I have drafted a 'Basic Block - Slim Trousers without Darts' from pg 9 of the same trouser book. Will cut and sew up a toile and see how this compares.

I could also construct a toile of the 'Skinny Fit Trouser' without the 2 cm crease line shift.

I shall post my findings over the coming days.

[Gerry]

I could also construct a toile of the 'Skinny Fit Trouser' without the 2 cm crease line shift.

That would make no sense at all, for the reason I gave: it's almost certainly a compensation to give correct leg placement. I used to do something similar myself, but now take a measurement, which can be done in one of two ways.

First method: drop the edge of a tape measure down the centre of one leg so that it runs over the middle of the kneecap. Either eyeball the position of the measure's edge at the crotchline, or mark it with chalk/a pin. Now measure from that point to the fly-line. That's your ideal crease-line position from the fly-line on your draft - fork widths are always estimated so, when you think about it, it makes no sense to position the crease line relative to the fork tip.

Second method: measure between the centres of the kneecaps, halve the distance and use that from the fly-line. Just make sure not to bend the knees when doing this, or you'll skew the measurement. Better still, get someone else to do the measuring.

NB Both methods assume a straight leg and standard/straight-leg position.

[Schneiderfrei]

Thank you everybody for your responses. To answer some questions:

The trouser draft is from the Müller book, Pattern Making Mens Trousers, pg 28, Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers. I will post the pages for study purposes if that is ok?

Depends on what year it is. If it's from the 60s 50s or before I think we all post such things. We tend not to post large chunks of stuff from 2000 on for copyright reasons.

[posaune]

I have the same book in german. ....printed 2012
After drafting to the right the knee height line, inseam  line and sidelength line... and so on ...you draw the horizontal hip line in (1/10 of 1/2 hip+ 3) up from inseam line. On the hip line you draft the Fronttrouserwidth = 1/4 hip-1 cm to the right. And angle up to Siede seam line and down till Inseam line. Now you add to the right the front trouser crotch width = 1/10 of Hip/2 + 1 cm. You have a total frontwidth of Ftw + Ftcw. You part now the total Frontwidth in half and angle up and down. This is the center front line from which you measure to the right and left 1/4 leg width -1cm and 1/4 knee width -1 cm (this is another typo in your book).
lg
posaune

[posaune]

I searched again in the book in the noon. If you go to the basic jeans pattern I found the 2 cm. you divide the total Ftw like this: to the left 1/2 Ftw-2 and to the right 1/2Ftw +2. You draft this "center"line and from here at kneelevel to the left 1/4 Kneewidth-0.5 cm to the right 1/4 Kneewidth -0.5 cm. The skinny fit jeans is done after the skinny fit basic pattern.
lg Posaune

[Trouser Snake]

Thank you posaune. I appreciate your time checking this. I did see that the jean pattern has the shift of 2 cm.

I have just heard back from Müller:

"There is a mistake in the text.The sentence should read as follows:

Divide the total front width by two and square up and down for the front crease line.
The centre should not be shifted by 2.0 cm.

Sorry for the mistake. We will take note of the correction."

I have just completed a toile for the slim fit trouser. I used the exact measurements in the Müller example as they were very close to my own. The result is, I am not fond of the bagginess in the leg so I will not go further with this.

What I will do now is draft another 'skinny fit' pattern (without the 2 cm shifted crease line). Looking at my original photos I posted and taking into account the comments here about the fronts being small, I shall leave ample seam allowances on the fronts to allow for alterations.

Thank you all for your input,

Stephen

[Gerry]

What I will do now is draft another 'skinny fit' pattern (without the 2 cm shifted crease line).

I'd advise you to take a measurement (see above) before redrafting. You may find that the 2 cm shift is more inline with your actual leg position, for the reason I mentioned above. At the risk of sounding like one of those nut-job street preachers, "the majority of drafts have this wrong!".

Drafts often use estimates where exact measurements (or at least more accurate estimates) can be used; and to determine leg position relative to an estimate (fork width) just doesn't make sense. Conventional wisdom sometimes isn't that wise IMO.

[Hendrick]

Thank you Gerry, for your "morphologic wisdom"... In my opinion most trouser drafts are too curved at the sideseams and I never managed a clean fit without shifting the leg, from under the crotchline outward. For me, this depends on the drape of the trouser. I fully agree that the position of the creaseline has less to do with the crotch diameter than with the hip-circumference. This is different for womens' trousers... In smaller sizes, womens'knees "meet",or nearly, whereas there upper thighs dont. The bigger the size, the less that will be the case. We call it the "open crotch effect"...

Cheers, Hendrick

[Trouser Snake]

Gerry, if I understand this correctly, I am hanging a one meter steel ruler from above my waistband so the middle goes right through the centre of my knee bone. My legs are straight, feet almost touching. I am marking off the line at the top near the waistband and measuring to the fly/zipper. I am getting about 8 cm.

I am looking at my drafts I did of the crease line 2 cm to the left, and the other pattern where it was not shifted. The pattern without the 2 cm shift to the outer leg is 8 cm from the fly; the shifted one is 10 cm. I might try redraft this time without the crease line shift.

I think with the pair I originally posted,the rise was too much at 22 cm. In the book they have their example at 19 cm. I might take 2 cm off. I think the waist at 90 cm and seat at 100 cm is about right. I find the legs always need to be hemmed a little shorter. Should I shorten the legs in the draft? I am using Andrew Ramroop's measuring video as a guide. I have a rise of 77 cm (perhaps 78 cm?) and side length of 99 cm. Any additional advice with the measuring?

Oh, one other question. This 'skinny fit' pattern has frog mouth pockets. Is there any reason that would be the case? Would slanted pockets create gaping with a tighter fitting trouser?

[Gerry]

Gerry, if I understand this correctly, I am hanging a one meter steel ruler from above my waistband so the middle goes right through the centre of my knee bone. My legs are straight, feet almost touching. I am marking off the line at the top near the waistband and measuring to the fly/zipper. I am getting about 8 cm.

I meant a tape measure, but if you're measuring yourself then yes, a rule is going to be easier. The caveat being that you might inadvertently angle the rule and, ideally, we want it to be perpendicular to the floor. At least with a measure gravity ensures a vertical drop (albeit with a gentle pull between the hands to straighten it).

The measurement isn't taken at the waistband. The legs join the trunk at the crotch line so that's where you need to pin/mark. Make sure the rule/measure runs over the centre of the kneecap. Once things are marked at the top of the leg, measure across from there with a tape to the fly line (again, at crotch level).

In your photos, your feet aren't 'almost touching'. You have a fairly regular/straight leg posture, not closed, so you need to stand how you normally do to take the measurement. If you're unsure about your leg position, stand as normal and take a measurement from the centres of the kneecaps then halve it. Compare that with the measure at the crotchline. If there's not much in it, you're straight postured.

I am looking at my drafts I did of the crease line 2 cm to the left, and the other pattern where it was not shifted. The pattern without the 2 cm shift to the outer leg is 8 cm from the fly; the shifted one is 10 cm. I might try redraft this time without the crease line shift.

You need to remeasure correctly before making this judgement.

Earlier, you posted a draft without the 2cm shift. Notice how the side seam is more curved. That shaping is immutable and may not be that flattering/what you want. I agree with Hendrick, it's a little too curved for my tastes (yours may differ though - if you try a toile it's all experience).

I think with the pair I originally posted, the rise was too much at 22 cm. In the book they have their example at 19 cm. I might take 2 cm off. I think the waist at 90 cm and seat at 100 cm is about right.

In your photos the rise at the front looks a little high, but you seem to have secured the waist really tightly to keep the trousers up, which is possibly why things look a little cramped below the waist. Sewing on a provisional waistband will help you better evaluate the fit. It can simply be pinned closed.

I find the legs always need to be hemmed a little shorter. Should I shorten the legs in the draft? I am using Andrew Ramroop's measuring video as a guide. I have a rise of 77 cm (perhaps 78 cm?) and side length of 99 cm. Any additional advice with the measuring?

Keep things simple, leave the full length. Simply fold up the hems in a fitting/when evaluating a toile. I always do my drafts referenced to the floor and leave them that way. With an early draft I once made the mistake of shortening the legs to my chosen hem height. It threw out all my vertical measurements so any adjustments thereafter were confusing and I inadvertently ended up with a dropped crotch. Not by much, but enough to feel uncomfortable when walking.

Although they look a little tired, I still wear those trousers (just for daily stuff), but I have to hitch them up and wear a belt quite tight in order not to feel like I'm waddling. With regular trousers, such an error wouldn't have been a big deal. However, with narrow leg it makes a difference. Similar principle as a high armscye, if the crotch is dropped then it restricts movement and the trousers have a tendency to be pulled down as one walks. With a more voluminous cut there's enough material/ease to compensate for any such drop and the legs can take strides without restriction.

Oh, one other question. This 'skinny fit' pattern has frog mouth pockets. Is there any reason that would be the case? Would slanted pockets create gaping with a tighter fitting trouser?

Frog mouth were/are a common choice with tighter fit stuff. They don't gape, but the flip side is they're not that practical (you can barely get your hand in them, let alone anything else). As to whether slanted pockets will gape, it depends on so many things: angle/positioning/mouth-width/star-sign/phase-of-the-moon (at least it can seem like it). If you have trousers in your wardrobe that don't have this problem, use them as a guide.

[Trouser Snake]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I have drafted and cut the paper pattern without the crease line shift. I can see what you and Hendrick mean about that side seam now. I think I would prefer to keep that curve straighter. This incidentally was the problem with my first attempt from 'Caffeinated Tailor' Youtube videos... that wild britches look on the sides.

I have about 4 meters of 180 cm wide calico here and a few cheap zips. I will cut and stich up this draft I just did and see if I can learn something from it. I have changed the inseam height. I remeasured and think it was too low. I'll probably end up drafting another with a shifted crease and thus straighter side length.

The past few years I have been wearing 'staprest' from Jump the Gun or wool trousers from Adam of London, so I am very familiar with frog mouth pockets. I do like making the slanted ones though.

I'll post some pictures when I get these made up. Again, I appreciate the education. Thanks!

[Gerry]

I can see what you and Hendrick mean about that side seam now. I think I would prefer to keep that curve straighter. This incidentally was the problem with my first attempt from 'Caffeinated Tailor' Youtube videos... that wild britches look on the sides.

The main thing is to get the leg position right, then worry about the side seam. It's possible to straighten things out even with a more closed position; but, at the risk of sounding sexist, I find that conventional shaping can look a little feminine: even if one manages to avoid the jodhpurs look, the curves can resemble women's pants ... and most men have fairly straight sides. 

Just to stress, my comments in this thread mostly relate to a narrow-leg cut where different rules apply. Rules that many tailors aren't aware of because they refuse to make trousers that skinny.

The past few years I have been wearing 'staprest' from Jump the Gun or wool trousers from Adam of London, so I am very familiar with frog mouth pockets. I do like making the slanted ones though.

Try a single, slanted pocket on one side of your next toile and decide for yourself if any gaping is acceptable.

Berwick Street has a couple of good cloth shops along it, so I'm familiar with Adam of London (there's a branch on the same street). Pretty good quality from what I can tell (I've never bought anything from them), but I did that look when I was a teenager. Nice to look at though (brings back memories).

[Gerry]

I just checked out the Jump the Gun website. The name didn't ring a bell, but I remember having a look through their window the last time I was in Brighton. I love the Harry Palmer raincoat. I'm going to have to make one of those at some point. Some nice Loake shoes too (not that I need another pair!).