Müller trouser draft and toile

[Trouser Snake]

Hello Cutters and Tailors,

After losing everything in a flood two years ago, I recently took on the task of trying to construct some trousers for myself. Twelve toiles on, it has turned out to be a lot more difficult than I ever imagined!

This began with a series of videos on Youtube (Caffeinated Tailor). I drew a pattern, made a toile, and sewed a pair from wool. Although amazed they even went on my body, the wild drape on the outer leg at the hip, britches style, was not my thing at all.

I then drafted from the Metric Pattern Cutting book and had issues with the back being too tight across the seat, as well as the trousers being too baggy in the back leg.

After reading a bit here, I decided to invest in the Müller Trouser book and Müller Menswear book.

My issue seems to be the fit. I simply can't get this right. I have now drafted and made toiles from the Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers (pg 28, Trouser book) and Basic Block: Trousers without dart (pg 35, Menswear book). I am about to embark on yet another pattern draft and toile: Basic Block: Slim Trousers without darts (pg 9, Trouser book).

I could keep going on making toiles and not knowing how to fit them, or I can ask the experts here! I was trained as an Illustrator in the 80's so I really enjoy the drafting. The Müller method suits my brain and I'm happy to stick with it if possible.

Here are the photos of my last effort, the Skinny-Fit Trousers. I have been dressing in a so-called 60's Mod style for the last decade or so and prefer tighter trousers to baggy. Maybe I am getting too old for this type of thing?! Open to suggestions.

I am grateful to have found you here and eager to learn. I have been pulling long days the past two months and I'm rather desperate. I won't cut more wool until the toile fits.

Thank you in advance for your time.

-Stephen

Edit: Just to mention something... The Skinny Trouser Draft said in the text to move the centre crease line 2cm to the left (outer seam), but on the illustration the seam has not been moved. I am unsure why the crease was moved. It alters the pattern including the back trouser draft. I have emailed Müller but they are on vacation. Other trouser drafts did not have this 2cm shift... strange

[posaune]

this 2 cm are done to center the back pants at crotch level. See attached Pic.


your trouser is not balanced - as far as I can see. The front hip line goes down, the back is a bit wide and the front tight and is pushed down. You must change the measurements a bit. More to front less to back. side seams are falling nicely
lg
posaune

[Trouser Snake]

Thank you for your reply. I only have 1 cm seam allowance on the front trouser; 3.5 cm seam allowance on the back, so adding to the front might mean a new draft and muslin. That is ok as I can do this in a day.

The book says, "Divide the total front width by two, measure 2 cm to the left and square up and down for the front crease line". However, when you look at the accompanying illustration, they have not moved the crease line on the front trouser. I am wondering if this is throwing me off? I do see a shift to the crease on the back which you mentioned. This is on the front though and I have not encountered it on other pattern drafts.

In the meantime I am thinking perhaps this is the wrong block to try. I found I had very little ease onto the waistband; about 5 mm. The book suggested a fabric with stretch.

Like you mentioned, the trouser photos I posted look too tight (across the front). Tonight I was trying a different block, the Slim Trouser without Darts. Would it be worthwhile to try this or go back to my other pattern and make the fronts wider? And what to do about that 2 cm shift of the crease to the outer leg on the front?

One other thing is I have checked the rise on some trousers I own, and they all seem to be about 20 cm. On the photos I posted they are 22 cm rise. There is constrained movement in the forks. I wondered if the crotch is too low? Or is it the fronts are not wide enough?

Thanks

[posaune]

you are right - I have not seen this in any Mueller draft. Maybe a wrong translation? The shift in Back is done for construction only. In your draft it is 1 to 1.5 cm - normally it is about 2 cm. It means not much fabric under the tush, ergo tight between the legs - near to the skin. The grain line stays. And yes if you press the trouser later the crease line (I hope that is the right word, As you dress with the iron you will get a crease line which run over center knee up center  of your cheeks and ends near the back center waist. Maybe it is your posture or you have a belly - you just need more width in the front and less in the back. For testing just insert some fabric there. You can add at ftrw and subtract at btrw in the pattern. But this is for later. Open the front and pin in a triangle (and make the CF straight) Then you see too if crotch is to low or not, because the trouser can go up now. As the sideseams are straight - I do not think that it is more then that.
lg posaune
lg
posaune

[Gerry]

.

The book says, "Divide the total front width by two, measure 2 cm to the left and square up and down for the front crease line". However, when you look at the accompanying illustration, they have not moved the crease line on the front trouser.

I don't have any experience with the Müller system(s), but I do have experience of drafting narrow-leg trousers. If the knee circumference is snug - and I don't necessarily mean tight (though that will cause this problem too) - then the crease line is pulled towards the inseam and is seemingly off-centre. This is due to the asymmetry of the knee joint. The knobbly bit of bone on the inside of the joint means that its 'true centre' is not the middle of the knee cap (which is where we want the crease to run).

Briefly check your knee and you'll see that this is the case. And it doesn't take much to cause this problem. You can seemingly have a comfortable amount of movement at the knee, but if things are even a little snug the creases will be out. Likewise if the upper inseam is too scooped on the fronts and/or if the thighs are snug. There's more meat on the inside of the thighs than on the outside, so similar asymmetry results.

This is possibly the reason why the crease line has been shifted over in your draft instructions, to compensate for the above. It's certainly one way of dealing with the problem (though not ideal).

Another solution is to create more ease/circumference at the knee, thereby allowing the crease to drift back to its intended position and allowing the leg to hang more naturally (rather than being pulled inwards). However, in doing this we lose the narrow look we're after. Supposedly.

One thing I tried on my most recent draft is to mark extra ease at the inseam of the back knee only. I then came down the inseam some seven inches and, keeping things as straight as possible, gently curved from that point, through the ease mark, then up to the fork tip on the back. This trick worked beautifully. It kept the illusion of a narrow/tight leg, because the fronts remained untouched, but all along the back - and more importantly at the knee - there's more ease. No more off-centre crease-lines.

The curving has to be just right though. If it's too pronounced, then drape can get trapped on the inside leg at the knee. Not that noticeable unless you're looking for it, but not very attractive when it is drawn to one's attention.

I won't be able to make a pair of trousers from this new draft until the Autumn, but I am pleased with the toile. Of course, Müller may have some totally different reason for doing the crease displacement, but what I outlined is worth being aware of. Especially if, like me, you favour more narrow-legged trousers - We are the Mods, We are the Mods, We are, We are, We are the Mods! 

PS, stick with your draft. Learn to fit because you're always going to have issues with your drafts, no matter what method you use.

[Trouser Snake]

posaune, thanks for your advice. Just so I have this correct, you want me to open the fly (zip) and pin a triangle of fabric there? Essentially seeing what a more vertical centre front would do to the fit. Is this correct, or am I to open up each leg crease line and fit triangles in there?

Gerry, to be honest, I was a scruffy punk listening to the Stranglers. Sometime in the 2000's I decided to smarten myself up.    My Mum liked the change. I've never been one for flares, nor wearing your waisband below your crotch line! I appreciate what you said about the knee being snug.

I have just about drafted that other Slim Fit Müller trouser. Been up all night (again). Shops open soon so I will get another half mile of fabric to play with. But perhaps you are right, I probably need to stick with this draft as there will always be issues. I was kind of hoping this would be paint by numbers, but there is clearly a definite art to it.

[Gerry]

The Stranglers were a great band. Although I became one of those post-Quadrophenia mods, I still loved a lot of the late 70s/early 80s New Wave bands. The look I'm into now is more proto-mod, i.e. late 50s/very early 60s. There's some really interesting men's wear from that period. Less camp/fab-and-groovy and more classic, but with a nod towards what was to come.

[Greger]

Narrow pant legs can have problems with calf muscles. Calf muscles vary in size from person to person.
What Gerry says about narrow look but, plenty of room is very good advice. I do think the narrow look is going out of style and fashion. In good wool cloth good inlays to use for being relevant as times change.
Because you have somewhat of a belly, not much, but it is there, a bit of room to fit. Changing the front of the pattern by adding there will help. To do this add a bit out and up. The waist line might best be curved some.
Some of the books posted here explain patterns, changes and fitting. None of them are the same. None of them have all the answers.

[Schneiderfrei]

"Thank you for your reply. I only have 1 cm seam allowance on the front trouser; 3.5 cm seam allowance on the back, so adding to the front might mean a new draft and muslin. That is ok as I can do this in a day."

Or just sew on a bit extra.

Which draft are you using? Can you give any details? Eg is it the one that is posted here:

https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,86

[Gerry]

One thing that's commonly done with low-rise trousers, is to undercut the belly slightly. Bring the rise down by about half an inch at the CF. This helps to prevent material being pushed down at the front due to any prominence of the belly - not necessarily fat, but roundness (which often occurs with age). It creates a more severe angling from back to front, but looks better from the front.

[posaune]

Interesting Gerry. The moving of the crease line does not make any changing in fit in my opinion. I reposit the leg if the legs (thighs, knees, feets) are very tight together or spread wide. I cut the crotch line horizontal and move the underpart in or out - depending.
so the crease line moves in or out - but taking the fabric along. The calfes are taken care off with widening the side seam  1 cm on both sides under back knee level. And only back pants. You have to dress the sideseam of the back pants to get the right length for the front side seam.

lg
posaune (who is sewing men clothes only for her husband)

[Greger]

What Gerry said about lowering the front waist band is fine unless you gain some more weight there. For me fighting the bulge is not easy. Lost about 20 pounds because of open heart surgery. About six years ago, later close to 10 pounds is back. I'd rather have a higher waistband than the belly spilling over the waistband.
What Posaune says about the crease line I believe is fine. When you put the outseam and inseam together the crease line is easy to press in its new location.

[peterle]

Well, I'm pretty sure the pattern directions don't change the crease line only:
 In this early stadium of drafting you just determin the point from wich to square the center line (crease line). Therefore everything that follows this step is shifted towards the side seam. Most prominently the knee and hem line. So the effect of the 2cm shift is a lower leg shifted towards the side. Also of the underside, wich is evolved from the front.(So it has an affect on the fit, like Posaune's alteration she mentioned in her last post)
Trouser Snake, did you remeasure the Mueller sketch? Maybe they shifted the point but it's just not obvious

[Gerry]

Interesting Gerry. The moving of the crease line does not make any changing in fit in my opinion. I reposit the leg if the legs (thighs, knees, feets) are very tight together or spread wide. I cut the crotch line horizontal and move the underpart in or out - depending.
so the crease line moves in or out - but taking the fabric along. The calfes are taken care off with widening the side seam  1 cm on both sides under back knee level. And only back pants. You have to dress the sideseam of the back pants to get the right length for the front side seam.

lg
posaune (who is sewing men clothes only for her husband)

It's an aesthetic thing, Posaune. All of my early trousers had this problem, but I was unaware of it because they were all casual in style, so I didn't bother pressing creases into the legs. It was only when I started on more dressier trousers that I began to notice that things were off. And it looks dreadful when one is aware of it.

If there's any snugness at the knee, then changing the leg position does absolutely nothing. The leg won't hang as intended and the centre creases are always pulled inwards. More ease is required at the knee to truly solve the problem, in particular along the inseam, because that's where there's more bulk. Hence the (successful) experiment/fix that I mentioned above.

Repositioning and pressing the creases more towards the side-seam is a common 'solution', but a really poor one IMO.

[Trouser Snake]

Thank you everybody for your responses. To answer some questions:

The trouser draft is from the Müller book, Pattern Making Mens Trousers, pg 28, Basic Block Skinny-Fit Trousers. I will post the pages for study purposes if that is ok?

In regard to the crease line and that 2cm relocation to the left. A week ago I was curious about this so drafted two versions for comparison. I have photographed these patterns from above and then traced the outlines from the photographs.

There is a definite difference to me in the front panels. Not so much in the back. Here are the photographs and drawings...