A Close-Fitting Sloper

[jruley]

And another new toile!  This one has the narrowed back and higher scyes.  First, without sleeves:

(I should note that the chest line is now drawn at the level of the bottom of the right (lower) scye, vs. the left in the last pic set)










Now, with sleeves:

[posaune]

Jim, it would be best that you showed us the pattern.
You lay front to the back touching at side seam so that the form of the armhole is good to see and the sleeve on top under the armhole.
lg
posaune

[jruley]

Jim, it would be best that you showed us the pattern.
You lay front to the back touching at side seam so that the form of the armhole is good to see and the sleeve on top under the armhole.
lg
posaune

I presume this is what you were looking for?

For this re-draft the armhole and sleeve cap shapes were drawn carefully following the instructions in the pattern book.  1/4" seam allowances have been added.

Side and yoke seams are overlapped 1" to account for the 1/2" seam allowances.






The sleeve is straight, so it's not surprising it doesn't hang cleanly given the shape of my arms.  I wonder if a higher cap would make the shoulder cleaner?

[peterle]

Yes a higher cap will make the sleeve cleaner, but also restricts the sideway movement of the arms.

Letīs try some analytics of your sleeve:
The sleeves are very tight at the back of the upper arms and a lot looser on the front of the upper arms. all pulling and folding lines concentrate to the front of your shoulder bones(bulge) which seems to be their center point. Thatīs why I think this is the issue point of the sleeve.



My first alteration would be to shift the pitch of the cap line 1-1,5" towards the front( now itīs on the center line). Thus the front cap line would get steeper, the cap would create more room for the shoulder bone/bulge and the material would be shifted more to the back of the arm where it belongs to. The back cap line would get a bit shallower, so the "ridge" in the armhole seam around the yoke seam would get less and follow the bodyīs form( which is flatter in this area) a bit better.

But I look forward for Posaune`s opinion...

[jruley]

My first alteration would be to shift the pitch of the cap line 1-1,5" towards the front( now itīs on the center line). Thus the front cap line would get steeper, the cap would create more room for the shoulder bone/bulge and the material would be shifted more to the back of the arm where it belongs to. The back cap line would get a bit shallower, so the "ridge" in the armhole seam around the yoke seam would get less and follow the bodyīs form( which is flatter in this area) a bit better.

For the "normal" balance shown in the pattern book the pitch line is indeed shifted forward, because the back armhole is longer than the front.

So, evidently balance affects the sleeve pitch line placement?  This is another subject the book forgot to address - but then it doesn't address balance changes at all!

Since I can't post the copyrighted illustration from the textbook, here's a description of the sleeve draft:

- Draw a vertical construction line (pitch line, as peterle calls it)
- Square out horizontal lines at level of bottom of scye, elbow, and cuff
- Calculate the sleeve cap height.  For the close-fitting sloper it is one-third of the armhole circumference minus 1-1/8".  Mark this distance up from the scye line.
- Draw diagonal construction lines for the front and back sleeve cap.  Their lengths are the front and back armhole lengths, minus 1/4".
- Divide these lines into fourths.  Mark out specified amounts of fullness at these locations.
- Sketch in a smooth curve.  Check the resulting length vs. front and back armhole lengths and correct as needed.  No ease is added.

Is this similar to other shirt sleeve drafts?

[posaune]

well, Peterle, you've got me. I'm a bad sleeve fitter. I hate that.
I agree: The front looks roomy, the back looks tight.
How much is cap height: 1/3 from armhole height (pity, that the yoke is missing)?
What I'm wondering about is the front sleeve's curve. If you look at the bodice pattern the front pattern has a long curve at pit, I can't see this in the sleeve.
When I look at pics without sleeves above I would like to take away about 1 cm length from front armhole and put it in the back armhole. So the sleeve cap would shift to the front too.
Sorry no great help. Will sleep over it.
lg
posaune

[jruley]

How much is cap height: 1/3 from armhole height (pity, that the yoke is missing)?

Cap height is 1/3 of armhole minus 1-1/8".

I have replaced the pictures with one including the yoke.

[Schneiderfrei]

That looks like it comes to about 5 1/2 inch cap height? That is quite tall really.

[pfaff260]

Not to high. Rundschau takes 12 cm for a tighter shirtsleeve in a man's shirt. That would be 4.73.  In lady drafts it's sometimes a litle higher.
I have been thought for lady's: Measure the height of the sleeve hole and sustract 3,5 cm from this (= 1.38 inch). That is your capheight.
But as far as i can recal, this sloper is not a shirt, but a basic from wich you can make clothingpatterns. Maybe this is why the sleevecap is this high. To make it useable for a jacket.

[posaune]

Graham, the sleeve cap is high for a shirt but not for a tighter fitting bodice. (it has about 70% of armhole height)
But look at the armhole:
the back is nearly as high as the front. Look at side seam point: the front armhole seam is longer than the back armhole seam. side seam is gone to back.  This is not repeated in the sleeve pattern.
Now look at the first pattern at page 1
here it looks like it should : the front is shorter, side seam is centered, the sleeve matches the armhole curve.
So my assumption about the length of the front versus the back was right (in a way). First we must alter for this otherwise I fear this sleeve draft will not work. But I'm a bad sleeve fitter and  please wait till some one better with sleeves will write.

lg
posaune
what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?

[peterle]

The system I use also calculates the cap height from the armhole heigth. But I think that is secondary. Your cap height doesnīt look suspicious to me.

The altered balance( balancing shortens or lengthens the armhole )lines of back and front) is also regarded in your pattern, because the diagonals use the length of the front or back armholes.

But I think you have slight forward shoulders. The average figure pattern fits a shoulder,thatīs highest point is at the shoulder seam. At this point the center line of the sleeve is attached to, and thatīs why the highest point of the cap is located at his point. But looking at your profil pics it seems to me, your shoulder reaches itīs highest point a bit  in front of the shoulder seam (about 3cm). So the sleeve cap has to reach itīs full heigth also a bit earlier.
But keep the vertical line at itīs place. It indicates where the sleeve has to meet the shoulder seam. This wonīt change.

To experiment just pull your sleeve cap a bit to the front at the shoulder seam when wearing. You will feel (and see) it, when the cap is in the right position.

well, Peterle, you've got me. I'm a bad sleeve fitter. I hate that.

I hoped  fitting sleeves is your most beloved thing...

what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?

The Page1 shows a pattern without shoulder dart at the yoke seam. the last pattern pic shows the yoke attached to the body piece with closed yoke dart. Placing the yoke with CBs in a line will make the back armhole higher for this inch. So I think we donīt have a problem here. Also the chest line is not straight. it has a kink, that also makes the front shoulder look higher than it is.

[posaune]

Peterle, yupp, the sloper had no shoulder dart. But we added more length for the shoulderblades. Which result was a shoulder dart. When you rotate it to the armhole the length of he armhole will still be there. You just take the rotated amount away as yoke dart.
I agree with the forward shoulders - you see the shoulder knobs pressing to the front and all  the other things you mentioned (but only 2 cm - I'm a coward).  But maybe you must rotate the whole sleeve a bit too because it is set to deep in.
Lg
posaune
Maybe to draw a grainline from the highest point of sleeve and horizontal line is a good helper.

[jruley]

Thanks everyone for your comments!  Responding to a couple of the points that have been made:

But as far as i can recal, this sloper is not a shirt, but a basic from wich you can make clothingpatterns. Maybe this is why the sleevecap is this high. To make it useable for a jacket.

Actually the sloper is very close to a shirt, and this cap height is recommended for shirts.  Jacket sleeve caps are even higher.

But look at the armhole: the back is nearly as high as the front. Look at side seam point: the front armhole seam is longer than the back armhole seam. side seam is gone to back. This is not repeated in the sleeve pattern.

Please review the draft description in post #184.  It may be hard to see in the photo, but actually the displacement of the side seam is accounted for in the pattern. 

what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?

We lost nothing from the back, but added a total of 1-1/2" (if memory serves correctly) to the front for balance adjustments.

Hopefully this clarifies a few things and the committee can come up with a course of action.

[lepus]

As a sloper it has no collar, just a plain, representative neck line.  I'm sure it could be smoother.

If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.

As a bodice sloper it may have no collar, but as such it has no sleeves either. A bodice sloper does however have a neckhole and armholes that must be suitable for the attachment of collars and sleeves, so I don't see a reason to neglect any of those.

[jruley]

If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.

All I can say is I followed the directions in the draft, plus the advice of several forum members that a smaller opening was more appropriate for a shirt.

Those who feel it is "wrong" might make criticism more constructive by presenting an example of one which is "right".