A Close-Fitting Sloper

[posaune]

Oh Jim, Lepus is right. The back neck is dipping. and before adding a collar and sleeve the neck - armholes schould be right.
And thank you for clerifying where the 2 cm are.
To your problem: You are right a committee is bad for advising. (I'll try to slap on my hands before writing) Peterle is a good adviser and will lead you through. So do what he wrote, open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
Start with 1 cm to........
(Before I slap on my hands: It could be that you must open all and rotate the side seam point too)
lg
posaune
to write about it makes the progress so slow - so the nerves are strung - in reality
with a few hand intervened, it would be done quickly (this sentence I googled!).

[jruley]

Oh Jim, Lepus is right. The back neck is dipping. and before adding a collar and sleeve the neck - armholes schould be right.

I didn't say he was wrong, and I am truly grateful for everyone's input.  However - neither he, nor you, have told me what to do to fix the neck.  Maybe it should be obvious, but do I just raise the back neck height?  How much?  Or is it more complicated?

You are right a committee is bad for advising.

I meant no offense, and I'm sorry if any was taken.  It's perfectly natural that different people confronted with a problem like this will see different things, and take different approaches.  But I can only move in one direction, unless I want to make multiple toiles; so sometimes I just need to be patient and let the group reach consensus.

to write about it makes the progress so slow - so the nerves are strung - in reality with a few hand intervened, it would be done quickly

It reminds me of reading about the scientists updating software on the Mars rovers.  It takes 20 minutes for the commands to go up, and another 20 minutes to get an answer.  In our case it's more like 10-12 hours!  So, what's most helpful to me is not just a comment (the neckhole is wrong) but some instructions (here's how to fix it).  Otherwise I have to ask more questions and we go through another 12 hour cycle.

Now back to the sleeve:

...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.

Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea was to move the SP forward, and redraw the curves accordingly?

[jruley]

Not having a clear plan forward, I decided to try a little experiment.
First, for reference, here is the left shoulder "as is":







It looked to me like there is excess bulk in both front and back, so I tried pinning some of it out:







It's a long way from perfect, but I think definitely helped.  The vertical pull lines would seem to indicate that a higher sleeve cap would fit better; and a higher cap would be narrower, reducing the bulk where I pinned it.

I'm sure professional eyes will see things I missed.  I left the pins in place in case anyone wants me to try some adjustments.

[peterle]

It´s hard to say wether this alteration is sufficient. It seems to be mainly cosmetics(wich is a good thing when theright  balance is achieved) .
Particular I can´t see the back of the arm. in the older pics there was a severe pulling, let´s say in biceps height. I think this will not be removed by your alteration.

Posaunes tip to rotate the sleeve in the armhole is easy and fast to do and possibly removes all the problems. Especially the left sleeve looks twisted. Try it. In case it doesn´t work, we will try somthing different. I´m sure we will solve this as well although we both hate fitting sleeves.
By the way, "sleeve seam" means armhole seam I think.

Something you should do in any case: the curve of the front armhole and the front  curve of the sleeve  should be fully congruent from sideseam to about 1" above your first prick. This is important for a clean sleeve.

Regarding the neckhole: I´ve adressed this in post #168. In case you did it then it was not sufficient. The aim is to get the back neckhole running horizontal when worn. It seems it dips now for circa 1-1,5 cm in center back. just let your wife draw a new back neck line on the toile when you wear it. in the pattern the back neckhole will just be shallower.

[jruley]

Posaunes tip to rotate the sleeve in the armhole is easy and fast to do and possibly removes all the problems. Especially the left sleeve looks twisted. Try it. In case it doesn´t work, we will try somthing different. I´m sure we will solve this as well although we both hate fitting sleeves.  By the way, "sleeve seam" means armhole seam I think.

Posaune wrote:

...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.

This would have left the bottom 1/3 of the "sleeve" (i.e. armhole) seam attached.  So, just to be clear, you are saying to rip the whole seam and rotate the sleeve in the armhole?

Regarding the neckhole: I´ve adressed this in post #168. In case you did it then it was not sufficient.

Post #168 reads:

I also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.

I interpreted that as an alteration to the front neckhole (which I haven't done yet) with no change to the back.

Your new instructions are clear:

The aim is to get the back neckhole running horizontal when worn. It seems it dips now for circa 1-1,5 cm in center back. just let your wife draw a new back neck line on the toile when you wear it. in the pattern the back neckhole will just be shallower.

Something you should do in any case: the curve of the front armhole and the front  curve of the sleeve  should be fully congruent from sideseam to about 1" above your first prick. This is important for a clean sleeve.

I will check this once I try rotating the sleeve in the armhole.

[peterle]

I´ve done both. Sometimes only rotating succeeds, sometimes redistributing only 2/3 of the cap succeed. Try the 2/3 first, when not succeeding redo the rest as well.

Neckhole: that´s the problem with words, ambiguous.  Posaune and I wanted you to clip just the front neck hole originaly in post #151 and152. The back neck was ok then. Clipping made it to deep.

[Henry Hall]

Clip to the neckline.

[jruley]

Rotating only part of the sleeve is not possible because there is no ease in the cap.  So, I ripped the left sleeve loose, then had my wife pin the top of the cap where it seemed to want to be.  I noted this position and pinned the sleeve smoothly into the armhole, then sewed, shifting all the pitch points 1/2".

Here is the result.  Compare to the right sleeve, which was not altered.

This seems to have helped, but there are still vertical pull lines indicating shortness in the cap.

[jruley]

Since peterle has the left sleeve, so to speak, I thought I might borrow the right to test a higher and narrower cap.  Here is the altered pattern sitting on top of the existing one.  The cap height has been increased about 3/4" (total length remains the same), and the width reduced about 1/2" on each side:



After a first trial I decided to rotate this sleeve in the armhole similar to the left one.  I also reshaped the upper back side of the cap slightly. 

Here is the result - original sleeve cap on left side, and the new on on the right:

[posaune]

JIm, take at look at this article:
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5750112-fitting-sleeves
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5781382-fitting-sleeves-continued
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5803901-fitting-sleeves-ease

I think that covers your problem quite well.
lg
posaune
lg
posaune

[peterle]

Thanks Posaune for these pics. They exactly illustrate my approach  in Post#183.

I look forward seeing the impacts of this alteration to a long sleeve.

Jim. I prefer the tighter version of the sleeve. It has a better proportional harmony to the width of the shirt.

[jruley]

Thanks posaune and peterle.  Just to confirm I understand:

- start with the new sleeve (narrower, higher cap)

- shift the cap line forward as shown in posaune's links.  1 - 1,5 cm was recommended in post #183.

Questions:

- Do you think it will still be necessary to rotate the sleeve in the armhole or will the alteration take care of this?

[jruley]

I drafted a new pattern using the tall narrow cap and shifting the pitch line forward 5/8".  No ease was added and the sleeve was not rotated in the armhole. 

The redrafted sleeve was put on the left side; yesterday's alterations remain on the right.  The back neckhole has also been filled in to start determining the proper collar seam position. 

I would say the new sleeve feels like the fullness is better placed, but also feels tight.  Rotating it in the armhole may help, but here is the first try:

[jruley]

The back neckhole has been sewn across (to prevent stretching) and clipped.

The new left sleeve has been rotated forward 1/2" in the armhole.

I'm out of ideas at this point, but I also wonder how much more improvement is possible?

[peterle]

Ok, just wanted to post two times, but you where faster each time.

Please clip the SA of the center back. It pulls and disturbes the balance.

Ease will certainly help to cover that shoulder bone. measure the armhole line and the cap line with the tape measure standing on it´s edge. the cap shloud be longer for about 3cm. The ease should be distributed around the thight area of the shoulder bone.

Try to rotate the sleeve.

Can you please post the new pattern?