A Close-Fitting Sloper

[jruley]

Today I drafted and made up the "Close-Fitting Torso Sloper" from Myoungok and Injoo Kim's "Patternmaking for Menswear: Classic to Contemporary".  The draft was simple and mostly easy to follow, though little use of the subject's personal measurements was called for.  The calculations used proportions of the chest and height measure.  A lot of attention was paid to making the sleeves fit the scyes, with four notches; and I have to say they fitted well even if they don't necessarily hang well.

The results shown are the straight draft for my chest measure (40, taken on the skin) and height (72) with only one adjustment.  The proportionate scye depth was about 1-1/2 inches below the actual armpit.  I checked the measure by means of a string tied around my body at this level, and my wife took the measure from the C7 vertebra to the string.  Not wanting the scye to be overly tight, I raised it 3/4" and redrafted the sleeve for the new scye.  The pattern and fitting shown include this adjustment.

Here is the pattern:



And now the fitting.  The shoulder slope and balance seem OK to me.  The dropped right shoulder is evident in the photos, which surprised me since I didn't notice it looking in the mirror.  I suppose many people instinctively straighten out when they can see themselves.

The body seems loose to me, but maybe that's to be expected in a straight cut garment with no darts.

If anyone has observations or advice, I'd be very grateful.

[hutch--]

Jim,

It may just be my eye but the pattern looks like it needs to be tapered from the underarms down to the waistline a bit more as it would remove some of the excess fabric at around the waistline level.

[Greger]

Have you added inlays so you can crook the fronts?

[jruley]

Jim,

It may just be my eye but the pattern looks like it needs to be tapered from the underarms down to the waistline a bit more as it would remove some of the excess fabric at around the waistline level.

That may be the next step:  The close-fitting sloper with darts.

Have you added inlays so you can crook the fronts?

The book does not specify how much seam allowance is included in the sloper draft, so I assumed none.  I added 1/4" to the scye and sleeve cap for accuracy in assembly, and 1/2" for the straight seams. 

This is a sloper, not a finished pattern, so neither wearing ease nor inlays have been added at this point.

[posaune]

Well there are some things which are not right. And they are nearly the same things we had with the coat.
First the balance. The hem goes up in back as the back waist line does. And stands away at CB.  Folds are emerging around the shoulderblades. The back needs more length over the shoulder blades (1 - 1.5 cm).
I would adice doing this first. Some things will settle.
Next is the shoulder (front). You see the folds from shoulder point to fist button and in back there is a little horizontal fold too. The back neck is very high. Could mean your shoulders are straighter - especial the front (front is too crooked). To prove this: unbutton the front and look what the CF is doing , falling straight down || or forming a V or an /\.
The folds in front go to the second last button indicating a pull from side seams to there.
But here we have the same effect as in the coat thread: In the front photo you have another posture as in the back view. So I do not know what exact I'm seeing.
In front pic (first pic) I see the right side hanging.
lg
posaune

[jruley]

First the balance. The hem goes up in back as the back waist line does. And stands away at CB.  Folds are emerging around the shoulderblades. The back needs more length over the shoulder blades (1 - 1.5 cm).
I would adice doing this first. Some things will settle.

Just to be clear:  You think I need more length in the back only, between the collar seam and chest line (bottom of scye)?  Or have I misunderstood?

Thanks,

Jim

[posaune]

Jim, I would do it slowly. So maybe you need not to take out front.
I attach a pic with the normal procedure for a posture like yours.  To confirm if you have this posture you have to check 2 measures: front waist CF to floor and back waist to floor. They must be equal - if you have a normal posture. If not - try to alter the sloper.
lg posaune
http://www.mediafire.com/view/1s15cckrucz04kc/posture.png

[peterle]

just to correct a point of view. the inlays are added mainly to have enough fabric for the fitting. so they would be most necessary in a sloper. 
Look in the cutting tables of the book you posted. There you can see where the most important inlays are placed.

To understand Posaunes sketch of the back: this alteration creates room for the protruding/strong shoulderblades. It creates some  vertical length over the shoulder blade (bigger circle) but keeps the back short at the armhole, thus keeping the armhole close to the body. The center back is just lengthend a bit, more then the armhole lesser then at the shoulder blades. this avoids a bubbling length  of the center back between the shoulderblades.
The resulting vertical dart towards the shoulderblade must be sewn close. How this dart will be treated in a real garment depends on the garment and fabric choice.

[jruley]

But here we have the same effect as in the coat thread: In the front photo you have another posture as in the back view. So I do not know what exact I'm seeing.

Before I make any changes, please take a look at this second set of photos to see if posture is more consistent.  There is a lump in the floor (happens in old houses!) at the spot I've been standing, so it's possible I'm shifting my weight to compensate.

No changes have been made to the sloper:

[TTailor]

What is it really? A close fitting shirt block?
A close fitting block of any sort needs shaping  and this just seems like a shirt yes?

I ask only because a close fitted bodice block for a man is what I would call my own draft that I use for doublets and, well, anything that has to fit the body contours closely and this does not.

[jruley]

What is it really? A close fitting shirt block?
A close fitting block of any sort needs shaping  and this just seems like a shirt yes?

I ask only because a close fitted bodice block for a man is what I would call my own draft that I use for doublets and, well, anything that has to fit the body contours closely and this does not.

I am using the authors' terminology.  They call this draft the "close-fitting sloper".  The next stage is "with darts" which adds shaping at the front, back, and side seams just as the name implies.

The "close-fitting sloper with darts" is very close to a fitted shirt pattern, but ease has to be added in certain areas.

My thought was to start fitting without darts, to check the shoulder slope, balance, and scye depth.  If these will be affected by shaping below the chest line then it makes sense to add the darts before going any further.  What is your advice?

Thanks,

Jim

[TTailor]

Well.
Posaune and I see similar things I believe.
Can you send me (msg) a scan of the draft? I promise not to use it or disseminate it, it is just more helpful to understand what it is all about.

[TTailor]

so... if this is a draft that will eventually lead to modifications to become a shirt, then, the neckline is off.
Too low in front and too wide in the back. figure out why- is the draft bad or is there a mistake in reading the draft?

Don't need to think about inlay crookening the neck point as this is a shirt, but definitely an inlay is needed in a waistcoat or jacket!

How much ease is allowed beyond the basic chest measure?

As for overall distribution of circumference, I think there is just a bit too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front for you.

You see, I would make major adjustments at the drafting stage because there are quite a few changes to be made that are not so easy to correct in one fitting.


So, keep in mind that these things I am saying are isolated approaches to individual fitting areas.

From the back photos , you can see (especially on your left) how the fabric is slightly taut over the upper blade. Need length to go over that part of the body. So unpick the top of the sleeve. and unpick 3/4 (or most of the shoulder seam length). Leave the shoulder seam allowances pressed as they are. You should  baste in a piece of muslin under the front shoulder to act as an inlay.
Get help for this next part.

Put the shirt back on and get your helper to pin the shoulder seam closed where it wants to naturally lay.
You will likely  need to pin a dart in the back shoulder first, then pin the back shoulder onto the inlay you basted in place.
Do the left and then the right, which will be different as your right side is dropped. Don't try to fix the drop yet.

In fitting, Just don't force the fabric to do anything that causes another problem. Thats the golden rule!

This fitting of the shoulder should also help the tension evident from shoulder to CF line in the front photos.

Do this and see what results you get.

[jruley]

How much ease is allowed beyond the basic chest measure?

The width from CF to CB is half the chest circumference (taken on the skin) plus 2".  So that's 4" ease over the full chest.

the neckline is off.
Too low in front and too wide in the back. figure out why- is the draft bad or is there a mistake in reading the draft?

Back neck width is 1/12th chest + 1/4".  No seam was added to the neck hole, so what you are seeing is the location of a finished seam.  It's almost touching the neck, so should it really be smaller?

As for overall distribution of circumference, I think there is just a bit too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front for you.

These are based on proportions of the chest.  On the back, scye to CB is 1/6 chest + 1-1/2"  On the front, scye to CF is 1/6 chest + 1".  These were within about 1/8" of my wife's measures on my body, but she may not have measured accurately.

How to determine how much to add or remove?  If both the back and back neck are too wide, should I try taking in the back seam?

From the back photos , you can see (especially on your left) how the fabric is slightly taut over the upper blade. Need length to go over that part of the body. So unpick the top of the sleeve. and unpick 3/4 (or most of the shoulder seam length). Leave the shoulder seam allowances pressed as they are. You should  baste in a piece of muslin under the front shoulder to act as an inlay.
Get help for this next part.

Put the shirt back on and get your helper to pin the shoulder seam closed where it wants to naturally lay.
You will likely  need to pin a dart in the back shoulder first, then pin the back shoulder onto the inlay you basted in place.
Do the left and then the right, which will be different as your right side is dropped. Don't try to fix the drop yet.

Is this essentially the same as the alteration posaune suggested?

If so, I think I would be more comfortable guesstimating the extra length needed, and adding a separate back piece, which will be needed anyway.  My wife is not a skilled fitter, and I would rather have a controlled, repeatable change than a series of random experiments.

[TTailor]

Ok, i assumed that you added seam allowance beyond the pattern line at the neck. Its important to do so, so the actual sewing line can be marked, and the sewing line is stable.

No do not take in the back to fix the neck. What is the calculation for the front neck depth?
What is your measured neck size? Chest proportional drafting is a good starting point but doesn't always work. That is why " working scale" 1/3 chest plus 6" is often used for some points because using chest scale makes some measurements too large proportionately. Like the neck, and scye depth, but I digress.

Yes the change is the same as what posaune mentioned for the shoulder.

Fitting is not a random experiment, guessing at how much to change is a random experiment.

I understand that you feel your wife is not a skilled fitter, but she is there and we are not.
I am off to work so I don,t have time atm to get into detail. Will check back later.







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