Author Topic: Jacket Toile Fit Check  (Read 34314 times)

TTailor

  • Venerable Member
  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
  • There is no formula!
    • A Tailor Made It
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #60 on: March 23, 2016, 11:00:12 AM »
Quote
So, in essence I need to adjust the shoulder slope, either by taking the ends of the seams down in the back or thicker pads?

Do not just adjust the shoulder slope.
Thicker pads will take up some of the excess in the back armhole for sure.
You need to know how your final fabric will behave. How much ease can you ease in on the back shoulder line? That will indicate how much of what you pinch out of the armhole can be transferred to the shoulder.

It si similar to what I described above. Dart manipulation, think of the pattern not just as a front and back plane but as somehting that accomodates three dimensions and compound shapes as it covers the body.

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #61 on: March 23, 2016, 11:51:13 AM »
A little more progress:

I lowered the right front into position on the side body so the scye curve could be uniformly lowered.   Here is the result.  I don't see significant differences from the last set, but the pocket line is more horizontal:









Here are the changes resulting from today's tuning.  As you can see the right scye has now been lowered a full inch relative to the left on the back.  I never would have guessed I was that lopsided!






« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 04:58:46 AM by jruley »

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #62 on: March 23, 2016, 11:56:57 AM »
-
Quote
Took in the front seam on the left side body, below the pocket line, to reduce the vertical fluting Terri pointed out in the front skirt.

Ahh well that is not the place to take it out. What you want to do is pin it out in a vertical dart near the front of the hip pocket, this is later transferred on the pattern into the horizontal pocket dart, in other words the horizontal dart increases in size. It has to come out there not on the side panel seam.



I was trying to keep both fronts the same, at least above the top button.  Looking at the new pictures closely, I suspect you are right :).

Quote
Do not just adjust the shoulder slope.
Thicker pads will take up some of the excess in the back armhole for sure.
You need to know how your final fabric will behave. How much ease can you ease in on the back shoulder line? That will indicate how much of what you pinch out of the armhole can be transferred to the shoulder.

It si similar to what I described above. Dart manipulation, think of the pattern not just as a front and back plane but as somehting that accomodates three dimensions and compound shapes as it covers the body.

I am going to cut new backs, based on my new pattern but with inlays at the neck and shoulder seam.  That will leave room for alterations and lengthening.

The final fabric is a wool suiting, but I'm not sure I can smoothly ease more excess length than the back already has.

Thanks,

Jim

peterle

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Experienced Professional
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #63 on: March 23, 2016, 10:50:36 PM »
Iīm loosing the thread...

You overdid the sloped shoulder alteration. Looking on the back picture, there is a hollow at the top of the back seam. Pushing the CBneckpoint into the right position(downwards) will make it more obvious. Iīm sure there would be a more or less horizontal fold. You can see it beginning to form in the profil pic ca 2" below the neckhole.

Maybe you should pin the toile to the shirt at center back neck point before putting it on? Thus it would be always in the right position.

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2016, 11:18:32 PM »
Iīm loosing the thread...

You overdid the sloped shoulder alteration. Looking on the back picture, there is a hollow at the top of the back seam. Pushing the CBneckpoint into the right position(downwards) will make it more obvious. Iīm sure there would be a more or less horizontal fold. You can see it beginning to form in the profil pic ca 2" below the neckhole.


Maybe I have a basic misunderstanding here.  You say the neck seam must always be in the proper position.  I agree that's where it must be when the coat is fitted.  But when you put the coat on, the arms go through the scyes.  They can't go anywhere else.  So if the scyes are reasonably tight, won't the collar seam just go wherever it wants to?  There is nothing at the neck to restrain it.

Let me put it another way.  Coats are usually (my impression anyway) cut with inlays above the neck seam.  After final adjustments are made, this extra length is trimmed away.  Is it wrong to apply the same principle to this mockup?  Once the upper back is looking good (not to say it is yet), why can't I just cut any extra length away to match the ends of the shoulder seams?

Quote
Maybe you should pin the toile to the shirt at center back neck point before putting it on? Thus it would be always in the right position.

That's an interesting idea, but the material in this mockup is stiff enough that I think it would just pull the shirt up higher on my back.

Given the excessive shoulder slope, I can think of three adjustments to try next:

- raise outer ends of shoulders

- lower neck end of shoulders

- take a narrow wedge out of the CB seam all way down to the waist.  This would reduce the back neck width and also reduce the shoulder slope.

peterle

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Experienced Professional
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2016, 12:14:47 AM »
Yes this is a basic misunderstanding.
The CB neckpoint is the only point on a body, that can be identified precisely. It is the protruding 7th vertebra. It is the only reliable reference point. Here we start measuring, here we start drawing, here we start fitting. All the rest of the jacket, each point of the pattern has to be put in the right  position relatively to this point.
For fitting this means the only thing we know is, this point of the garment has to sit on exactly this point of the body. Thatīs why we pin it there. Everything else is unsure and has to be adapted when not fitting.

Given that the shoulders are now too sloping, and the back neck is too wide for me, I wonder if just taking a small wedge out at CB might solve both problems?

A vertical dart along the back seam would make a rounded back seam. this would tend to cause a hollow bulge. It wouldnīt change the slope. But just try it and see the effect.

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #66 on: March 24, 2016, 05:37:00 AM »

Given that the shoulders are now too sloping, and the back neck is too wide for me, I wonder if just taking a small wedge out at CB might solve both problems?

A vertical dart along the back seam would make a rounded back seam. this would tend to cause a hollow bulge. It wouldnīt change the slope. But just try it and see the effect.

Quite right; I won't embarrass myself by showing the pictures :).

OK.  I cut out new backs with fitting inlays as described above.  After confirming the fit hadn't changed, I reduced the shoulder slope by letting the outer ends of the seams come forward 3/4" on the back.

The coat fits down on the shoulders now, and the collar seam (just below the white tape in the photos) seems to be in the right place.











« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 05:00:05 AM by jruley »

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #67 on: March 24, 2016, 06:45:57 AM »
I got the remaining wrinkles out of the upper back by pinning out a horizontal wedge as shown.  Passed the back up on the side bodies an equal amount (1/2") to keep the coat in balance.

It remains to clean up the back.








majka

  • Guest
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #68 on: March 24, 2016, 08:50:06 PM »
Until the much more experienced people come here, here are my 2 cents.

It is difficult to see it exactly without stitching the wedge and ironing it, but in my opinion the change brought few problems I am seeing. In the following picture, I am using the more pronounced side:

You did "steal" some length from the front part . If you go with it, you have to give some of it back one way or another. The seam needs needs to be changed - perhaps not as much as shown, some length should come back there, it is bit too tight in my eyes - this is the black line in the picture.

As for the wrinkles shown by the blue lines. In the front part, even if you do the previous correction (giving some length back), you are now missing part of the armhole and should get the initial shape back. The shape of the armhole in the back needs to be checked too, there is similar problem there. I think this is the case, not too much seam allowance tightening the armhole too much (in such case, clipping it would help). I would need to see the shape hidden under the arm. If you simply moved the side part down, the armhole would have awkward shape there. Without the re-positioning, there would be simply not enough space to get the arm through and the problem would be obvious. Now, it is just a bit too tight. You can see it in the front view, not repeated here.



peterle

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Experienced Professional
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #69 on: March 24, 2016, 09:50:29 PM »
I think the shortened back is not good. the back seam gets pulled upwards and makes the hole lower back swing away from the body.

So i refer to the post #66 pics:
the fold in the upper back could be caused by the pinned pads. The fold start where you pinned the pads at the shoulder seam. The left pad is crunched in the pics. Remove the pins at the back armhole.
It looks like you have only altered the shoulder seam in the outer half? it should be done over the hole length.

Your back seam is always drifting to the right at the hem. I think your high hip pulls the garment to the right. please post a back pic like the first in Post 66 but remove the 6-7 pins in the side seam from hem upwards. I would be interested wether the back moves towards the middle when unrestricted.

Your back seems never to be close to your body at the hip line, even with a long back balance. Thatīs why I suppose you have a forward hip posture (posaune already mentioned it). To verify please post an exact profil pic facing towards the stairs without toile . There should be a vertical line in the background (like the doorframe) to judge wether the most protruding points of the blades and the buttocks toutch the same vertical line or the hip is forward:

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #70 on: March 24, 2016, 11:47:01 PM »
Here are the side profiles peterle requested.




peterle

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Experienced Professional
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2016, 12:43:14 AM »
Thank You.
Defenitely a forward hip posture.
 How to alter your basic pattern:



"Drehpunkte" means pivot points.
Proceed i this manner:
Lay your pattern onto another sheet of paper/ your toile).
Copy the back and side body above the drehpunkte.  using your pattern as temolate pivot the backseam 1cm forward at the hem. using the second drehpunkt pivot sideseam 1cm forward at the hem. redraw the hemline, keeping a right angle at the center back.

Same with the side body.

Copy front from foldline -neckhole-shoulder-armhole to Drehpunkt. Pivot sideseam forward for 1cm at the hem. Shift  parallel the hole front edge from hem to highest button forward for the same amount. redraw hemline, lapel and lapel fold line.

Maybe you need more than 1cm.

Neglect the sleeve sketch in the pic. it belongs to a different alteration.

jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2016, 12:58:48 AM »
It looks like you have only altered the shoulder seam in the outer half? it should be done over the hole length.

I think I know what you were seeing.  Here's a closeup of the left shoulder.  The line of blue stitches marks the edge of the pattern piece (beginning of the inlay).  Pink chalk line is the old seam line:


These are the same as Post #66.  Shoulder pads are smoothly basted.  The back seams sewn and pressed, but left free from the waist line down:









jruley

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 536
  • Human Being
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2016, 12:59:43 AM »
Thank You.
Defenitely a forward hip posture.
 How to alter your basic pattern:

Thank you very much!

Before I make these changes, do you think I have the alteration for dropped shoulder correct?
Is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

peterle

  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 346
  • Experienced Professional
Re: Jacket Toile Fit Check
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2016, 03:20:26 AM »
I think the dropped shoulder, the difference of left and right armhole to be precise, is right.
But I think the slope on both shoulders is yet to deep. The shoulders seem to sit only on the outer thirds. You probably can feel this when wearing. The garments weight should be distributed evenly across both shoulders and the neck.
I think you should shallow the slope of both shoulders a bit. donīt forget the front shoulders. A shallower slope will probably also remove the stress folds of the front armholes majka was talking of.

is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

Do you mean the drop of the lower shoulder or the slope of the shoulders?

The most reliable method for finding the right shoulder line is a pin fitting. Unfortunately this is not possible when fitting yourself.