Jacket Toile Fit Check

[jruley]

Until the much more experienced people come here, here are my 2 cents.

It is difficult to see it exactly without stitching the wedge and ironing it, but in my opinion the change brought few problems I am seeing. In the following picture, I am using the more pronounced side:

You did "steal" some length from the front part . If you go with it, you have to give some of it back one way or another. The seam needs needs to be changed - perhaps not as much as shown, some length should come back there, it is bit too tight in my eyes - this is the black line in the picture.

As for the wrinkles shown by the blue lines. In the front part, even if you do the previous correction (giving some length back), you are now missing part of the armhole and should get the initial shape back. The shape of the armhole in the back needs to be checked too, there is similar problem there. I think this is the case, not too much seam allowance tightening the armhole too much (in such case, clipping it would help). I would need to see the shape hidden under the arm. If you simply moved the side part down, the armhole would have awkward shape there. Without the re-positioning, there would be simply not enough space to get the arm through and the problem would be obvious. Now, it is just a bit too tight. You can see it in the front view, not repeated here.

Majka,

for some reason your picture does not show on my screen.  Can you re-check the link?  Can anyone else see it?

Thanks,

Jim

[jruley]

is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

Do you mean the drop of the lower shoulder or the slope of the shoulders?

I meant the drop of the lower shoulder, relative to the higher one.

[jruley]

But I think the slope on both shoulders is yet to deep. The shoulders seem to sit only on the outer thirds. You probably can feel this when wearing. The garments weight should be

I wonder if part of the problem is the shoulder seam shape?  The draft I used is for concave shoulders:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=78.0

Compare the "natural shoulder line" here:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=79.0

So, if I want to keep the concave shoulder profile, I need to shallow the slope more and also use thicker pads.  Or I could reshape the seam for a natural line, and my slope is probably near correct.  Have I analyzed this correctly?

[Greger]

Jim, you would do well if you had more books on fitting. Poulins book, which you can download, has some excellent advice. Hosteks book is worth every penny about fitting. Another book you can download is, believe his name is Carley, about alterations, so not everything you want to do, but a ton of advice in it.

With pins you can change the shoulder seam to another location. Perhaps you would like it back out of sight. Some like it straight across the top. Others like it a little in front. And, then there are those who like it crisscross one way or the other. And, many more things.

[posaune]

Jruley,
you are walking in circles.  If you want a natural shoulder or a concave one you can decide that later when the thing fit.
I would pin out first that vertical dart from hem up to pocket to get a better fit in front as Terri suggested. After this is done take a pic and show it. Then you look at your armholes. I think they are a smidge to tight in front. Snip little snips where the armhole curves and look if it this gets better with this folds at front side.
If you want to take out a length across back you should do this about 4 cm under the neckhole - not at armhole level. I too think the draft has a big slope but this was done in older drafts. The fit does not depends on where the shoulder seam runs but the front and back must be proportioned. Your back looks long in this part and there are ripples. If there is too much length at back armhole (not forget you ease some of it in with the real fabric)  you can dart out at back armhole, - this dart will be rotated in the shoulder seams and ease it in - as Terri told you. As you have a big slop there (bias) no big problem as long you take no garbadine.
lg
posaune

If you want to know your amount of hanging and you have no measureing device for it - You tape a piece of paper angled to the door. Your wife should take a pencil and trace your shoulder lines or mark the SP on the paper. Now you can measure the difference. You can do this for the waist and hip too.

[jruley]

I think it's best if I'm the one who says it:  This isn't going to work.

I thought this would be a fun little side project. It is not; it's serious work.

This is going to take a lot more time and effort than I am willing to give it right now, so I think it's best to put it aside.

I really, really appreciate everyone's patience, time, and generosity with their knowledge.  I hope you will be able to help someone else who is better prepared.

[posaune]

Well, I would try again. I would not expect that I got it right for the first time.
Now you know what you are up to and no - you are not Quasimodo. If you look at the pic from Östereichische Schneiderzeitung you see your posture (good find, Peterle) and what to do to a basic draft to get good results. You have to add  to the draft the hanging side which I think will be about 1.5 cm not more.  How the hip behaves at hanging side is to see. Some have it high at hanging side some low.
Cheer up
lg
posaune

[peterle]

I´m sure you would succeed.

A tip for this and future projects: It is nearly impossible to fit one self. Some of the issues can only be removed by using pins and hands while the garment is worn.
The best and only way to fit one self is a personal dress form, made of parcel paper strips. With such a copy of your body fitting is a lot easier.
Even Chanel uses this kind of dressforms for not bothering ther customers with fittings, so you would be in good company.

To get an impression of the how to´s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLT6vsfkkkI

[TTailor]

Jim, was your intention to gain experience drafting or in the making?
I understand that you make more period garments, are they for yourself or others?
What kind of process do you take with those?

I think this is a good thread for people to see, because it does illustrate the trials and tribulations of trying to make a custom draft.
I think it is a good idea to have someone with experience walk you through it, and so I hope you find someone close by.
Don,t be discouraged though, even with years of experience, it rarely is 100% correct the first time. There are always modifications to be made as each body is different. That is with regular proportionate shapes. With more complicated figures, there are many more things to consider, and modify for sure. It is not as simple as many would think.
Sometimes putting it away for awhile gives you the chance to mull things over and come back to it later with fresh ideas and insights.
T

[Greger]

There never to many fitting books. An author may explain some things very well, but not so much the others. This is where other authors come in handy. No book has all the answers, anyway. For example, Poulin says to balance the coat mid-shoulder to mid-shoulder leaving the outer shoulder for later, being that is for shoulder capacity. Instead of jumping to different problems at random he has divided the problems up into sections, which he has numbered, in the first group. Hosteks method shows out some other problems. On the side his method opens the door for a more crooked cut if you want too. Even these books have valuable fitting information http://costumes.org/wiki/index.php/History100pages1893to1898cuttersguide As a small boy I heard grandfather explaining to people who came to him about fitting problems. Many of his answers came right out of these books. MTOC, didn't mention that one. Horsteks probably hadn't written his book yet. The best know the most.

In America look up sway back, the Germans call it something else, hips swayed forward.  It is not a good idea to have buttons and button holes, but inlay out there instead, which you might need. Something about the don lon wedge, one side may be different than the other. It is sort of a lever pulling the front hem forwards or back, but also lengthening or shortening the hem length.

[Schneiderfrei]

Those texts should not be regarded as required reading.  Every tiny nuance has been useful to me in developing an inner eye to what to look for.

[Greger]

Some alterations tailors are real tailors. Some of them might help you. You can ask some of those wedding clothing stores (doubtful, but maybe). How many tailors have ended up in retirement homes, bored out of their minds, waiting for somebody to come along with a subject they are interested in? It is very possible their is one nearby.

Many people have two sided bodies. How many home sewers buy a pattern, sew it up and wonder why it doesn't fit. Watching YouTube this one tailor had the two sides taped together, the tape was a hinge so he could chalk one, then the other (larger on top). Another method is cut out the larger, draw the smaller (which comes from the fitting), then poke lots of holes in the line, which you rub chalk through when chalking the pattern. That is another way to have left and right handy. Dressing trousers? Poke holes down the smaller line.

[lepus]

Although it was my intention to just occasionally follow the progress in this thread (no time, and too many cooks and all that), I was getting so confused that I have to put forward a couple of points; I promise I will be silent after.
It's quite possible that others have already addressed the same issues, but as I wanted to explore the use of an external picture server, I decided to add my contribution anyway. Please skip already resolved points and out-of-date matters, or skip this whole post if obsolete; a delayed response is practically inescapable for me.

• The cure for low shoulder
  
  Why wasn't a simple, standard modification applied, such as shown in Fig. 1? It illustrates a straightforward moving down of the armhole from A to B, with a re-draw of the shoulder lines (1, 2) and the side seam (3), without side effects from wedges in a variety of places.
  
  Fig. 1:
  
  
  
• Is that cure necessary?
  
  The tailor will not only strive for a correct fit, but will also want to hide figure "abnormalities" as far as possible. With that in mind, why weren't unequal shoulder pads considered, alone or in combination with a moderate armhole drop? For a low shoulder one would correct about half the amount with a drop and the rest with a higher pad. That involves a sleeve modification, but the effect is usually better and less obtrusive.
  
  
• The diagnosis
  
  Can we really be sure that the right shoulder is low? Low, that is, with respect to what the pattern assumes, as shown in Fig. 2, where the armhole of the garment (A) ends higher than that of the body (B). But when I look at the initial photographs at the beginning of this thread, I have my doubts. It's always a bit difficult to judge solely from photographs, but when I look at the back (reproduced in Fig. 3), I see no obvious signs of low shoulder.
  For a low shoulder with the arm assumed unchanged, one would expect diagonal folds from underside of armhole to higher back, something similar in the front, as the arm pushes the armhole down. The end of garment shoulder tends to collapse and this can also lead to the collar sliding off sideways. In actual fact, the shoulder points are practically at the same height, if the door moulding is taken as a vertical reference. Any correction deemed necessary at the fitting stage could probably be delt with using shoulder pads.
  
  Fig. 2:
  
  
  Fig. 3:
  
  
  


• High or low
  
  Why was it decided that the right shoulder was low with respect to the pattern and not the left shoulder high? Were measurements done and compared with the pattern dimensions? I don't seem to be able to find them.
  
  


• Measuring
  
  Over the years several contraptions have been invented to assist with taking measures. One of the simplest ways to obtain information about arm scye location is to place a ruler or similar object under the person's arms, against the muscle bundles running to the arm (Fig. 4).
  
  Fig. 4:
  
  
  Make sure that the upper edge of the ruler is horizontal, with the arm relaxed and hanging down. You'll need a fixed reference point F to measure the distance to the horizontal plane. Compare with the same measurement on the pattern, taking seam allowances and ease into account.
  There are a couple of pitfalls with this method. Sometimes prominent shoulder blades need increased back length. If the figure is then measured in the groove between them, the length may appear too short. Second, remember that the armhole's lowest point is actually lower than the upper edge of the ruler, as it has a rounded shape. One could use a template for the lower part of the armhole, cut after the pattern, to aid in measuring when one doesn't want to apply a correction.
  
  


• Shoulders
  
  When the fronts are examined there is a height difference visible, again using the door as a vertical reference. But it seems to me, not just from this photograph (Fig. 3), but also from elsewhere in the thread, that the figure may have a tendency to tilt the upper body slightly to the right. I doubt whether a dropped shoulder correction in the pattern would be advisable in those cases.
  If one were to insist on modification, giving a slight slant to the upper body part would seem more appropriate, depending on what one wanted to achieve. A modification like that has many variants, depending on what the actual body shape is, for instance something like in Fig. 5. Sometimes a prominent hip is present as well, on the ipsi- or contralateral side, which has to be provided for.
  
  Fig. 5:
  
  
  


• Shoulder joint
  
  The left shoulder joint (front and left side photographs) seems to point forward a bit more and push slightly against the garment. This may have to be accommodated for separately. Also, the collar seems to be lifted and displaced a bit on the left side, which may be associated with the same issue.
  
  


• Back of armscye
  
  There certainly is looseness and untidiness there, as is evident from the side views (Fig.6). However, this looseness looks to appear only from the shoulder tip down the back (2), not on top of the shoulder. In fact, the upper part fits quite well, the collar, although insufficiently shaped perhaps, is in the right position (1), the upper back seems smooth. Many people hold their shoulder blades slightly forward, which gives that effect.
  I would be reluctant to extensively modify the pattern for it, and would prefer to introduce padding at the back, keep the back scye short and attach the back shoulder with fullness to the front. The slightly wide back can then roll smoothly against the sleeve.
  I noticed also that the shoulder seams are rather far to the back at the shoulder end (3); not necessarily a problem, but shoulder seam displacement can make modifications more difficult. At least a temporary conversion to shoulder seam at natural shoulder is what I would undertake.
  
  Fig. 6:
  
  
  


• High or low again
  
  This is my dilemma here, I secretly think that the shoulders here are not low at all, but high, with the left a little more prominent. Jacket patterns in general (but I don't know about this particular one) assume introduction of shoulder pads. When one imagines that here, the shoulders would end up too high. This can also be seen in the rest of the thread, after the right shoulder is progressively lowered. The collar, or its line of attachment, then rises far too high up the shirt collar and horizontal surplus folds appear along the top of the back, while the neck opening is lifted upwards.
  
  


• On balance
  
  Others have already pointed out that the balance of a coat only refers to the part above a horizontal plane through the chest or bottom of scye line. Just as a general reminder: the symptoms of a wrong balance can be seen lower down (the way the fronts and the back hang, etc.), but those symptoms are only reliable indicators if the garment hangs freely from that chest plane. As soon as a forward abdomen, a pronounced hip or a backward seat are present, those indicators are useless. For that reason I do wonder why among all the photographs I don't remember a single one with a chest line drawn in front and back, a most helpful indicator.
  
  


• Foreparts
  
  It seems clear from the start that the foreparts do not hang correctly and swing sideways and backwards. It's difficult to determine what to do about it without any guide lines at waist and seat height. My guess is that a prominent (not necessarily larger in circumference) abdomen is partly responsible for that. In many side views I can see that the piece deviates forward, but as the figure is hidden from view by the toile the how and what of it remain guesswork. Posaune did already point this out early on and I concur. That would be, together with the major balances (in J. King Wilson terms), my main concern at this stage, instead of the shoulder experiments.
  
  


• Reference point
  
  As has been said by others, a good, reproducible reference point is required. The extension of the seventh cervical vertebra is often mentioned (processus spinosus vertebrae prominentis, for the anatomists among us), but I find that it is not always easy to locate a definite point accurately by palpating it. Often I use the edge of a comfortable, well and close fitting shirt collar, worn closed.
  
  


• On toile fitting
  
  I think it's wise to remember that the fit of a thin cotton garment model, without interfacing, sleeve and collar will not guarantee a one-to-one correspondence to a real jacket. To me, it makes little sense to try to obtain a precise fit in it. I would use the cotton model to look at the general impression, the shape of the garment on the person and to correct major flaws. Then perhaps for practice construct a sample using fabric of comparable weight and characteristics to what the end result is supposed to be. That piece would have provisional interfacing, collar, sleeves attached and perhaps also a lining of some sort to make sure the garment glides easily over the shirt. A detailed fitting would be done with that while the weights of all the different parts exerted their influence.
  
  


• Knowledge base
  
  I'm beginning to understand why the Cutter and Tailor forum doesn't allow coat or jacket making posts. I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but the avidity with which pattern modifications are carried out, following "recipes" plucked from anywhere, seemingly without much understanding of the mechanics involved, surprises me. Perfectly fine if one wants to experiment with modifications, and even advisable to do so, however creating a usable pattern seems to be the object here. In which case I would plead in favour of a rigorous, systematic top-down approach, section by section. That necessitates a good understanding of basic fitting principles and one could do worse than studying J. King Wilson's treatise on the subject and experimenting with his ideas. The little book is nearly completely available online at the other forum, as far as I know.
  
  

Despite these remarks, I wish every success and look forward to a well-fitting, well-constructed jacket being modelled in due course. Don't give up. Tenaciousness is a virtue.

[Henry Hall]

How can one shoulder be high? Unless a person defies gravity or grows higher on one side  it is always one shoulder dropping and any assumed 'height' of the opposing shoulder is an offsetting of balance to that side. Just like a so-called "high hip" is really the effect of the 'sagging' shoulder which causes displacement: one tilts up and the other tilts down.

They're all effects of spinal displacement, but one can't gain height in this way without the other being low, it's just that the lowered shoulder is often more pronounced than the height gained on the other side.

The 'mechanics' need to be understood, yes, preferably by everyone.

[jruley]

Although it was my intention to just occasionally follow the progress in this thread (no time, and too many cooks and all that), I was getting so confused that I have to put forward a couple of points; I promise I will be silent after.

Thanks for your comments.  I will not try to respond in detail, but thanks for the detailed review.

I'm sure it's obvious to you that I didn't know what I was doing.

You may have missed that peterle found that the neck point in the initial draft was significantly too far back.  This was not corrected until post #18.  So the first toile (earliest pictures, that you worked with) was way too crooked.

It is also possible I stood straighter for these earlier pictures.  As the coat got more lopsided I may have unconsciously conformed my body to it, or just been more sloppy about posing.

When and IF I take this up again, I will probably just go back to the original draft and reevaluate how it fits.  Then make changes one at a time.

Too many other demands on my time to work on this now.