Jacket Toile Fit Check

[jruley]

I thought I might be able to develop a personal jacket pattern by fitting a toile.  (Hint to new readers:  Save yourself time by jumping ahead to this conclusion):

A tip for this and future projects: It is nearly impossible to fit one self.

But this is still the "Wild Enthusiasm" stage.  So we continue:


Starting point was the 1970 T&C "Modern Suit Jacket" using dimensions for my RTW size of 42R. 

Author's comment:  No personal measurements?  What could possibly go wrong?

After trying on the first mockup (not shown) I made a few changes:

- Reduced back width at shoulder 1/2"

- Changed major vertical balance 1/2" (upper back 1/4" longer, shoulder piece in front 1/4" shorter)

- "Slightly Corpulent" adjustment from the 1923 MTOC applied to the lower front, reflecting the fact that my waist measure is 40 and not 38.  Basically, I straightened the front below the upper button, and spread the pocket dart open a bit more to avoid adding too much length at the bottom edge.

The second mockup is shown below.  First four pictures are unbuttoned, next four buttoned.  Edges have not been pressed back so the lapels are 3/8" wider than finished, and the bottom is 1-1/4" longer.

To my untrained eye it seems to hang well, but I wonder if I should reduce the skirt?

I would like to know if more experienced eyes see any big issues before I attach the sleeves.

[Henry Hall]

I'll start while I'm here.... low right shoulder. The immediate visual giveaways are the button, bottom of lapel and darts are visibly out of alignment. Buttoning the coat shows the lapel lifting and curving on that side.

[posaune]

Oh, it is not only the right hanging side. I assume the posture is in that way, that the lower body is pushed into front. So the slightly corpulent draft maybe not enough. The back skirt is too full because of that. The bust could have some more fabric. It looks tight.  I suppose you will sew in a nice  interfacing  and a plack to give the bust more fullness.  The shoulder seam is much in the back  - unusual  in a draft of the 70 th.  The CF is too long compared to the side seam - take up at Neckpoint front shoulder - or release the pocket dart (donelon wedge??). The back armhole gapes - could maybe be ironed in.
But wait for Terri. I'm not a man's tailor.
lg
posaune

[jruley]

Thank you Henry.  Like many people, I hate to admit that I'm asymmetrical; but it's pretty obvious from the photos.

The simplest correction for this sort of thing I found in the literature was to shorten the shoulder piece on the low side while leaving the back alone.  I guesstimated 1/2" and moved the shoulder seam on the right side accordingly.  The right lapel will need to be shortened a corresponding amount and the right scye will need to be deepened, but those can wait for the present.

Here's how it looks with this correction.  I think Henry was right, it looks much more even now.

Thanks Posaune for your comments as well.  I'll wait for Terri before making more changes.

[Henry Hall]

Do take note of what Posaune said about the front being long. Examine your last photo above.

Also, for a fitting check pop in any shoulder padding you plan to use. You don't want to alter it then find it has another problem when the pads are in.

[Schneiderfrei]

I remain bothered by the diagonal folds on both sides, in the area of the chest.

From the scye down to centre front, top button.

Maybe that is what posaune meant would be helped by a nice canvas installed. but is there really enough width in the chest?

G

[TTailor]

Shoulderpads? Your jacket should have a pad, if only a thin one because most drafts allow for it. It also helps to give support to the silhouette.
I am a fan of basting hems up and edges in for fittings. I am also a fan of some support in the fronts of a toile to mimic the intended structure, whether it is a second layer of muslin or some fusible.
Remove the button.
Mark the intended centre front line on both sides of the jacket.
Pin the front closed where it sits easily, dont force it. If it doesn't close on the line, (or at all without pulling) then mark the point where it does close. It looks like you will need moreat the chest level.

Look at the back. Something odd is happening in the hang of the cb. Do you want it to fit closer to the body? But deal with the fronts first.
The fronts hem doesn't look excessively long in relation to the back hem bit you definitely have a drape of excess fabricgoing on and the hang of the fronts is angling outwards. Pin out excess across horizontally just below the level of the break point and see if that helps straighten up the fronts, and brings some of the excess fabric in the skirt forward.

I think looking at the rundschau drafts for figures with fullness in the front waist would be useful for you. They have very good methods to determine how much to allow at the waist and also the location of the neck point in those drafts.

Post a picture of your pattern.

[jruley]

Here is the pattern.  I accented some of the primary construction lines with a marker so they showed up distinctly in the photo.  The background is a cutting mat with a 1" grid.  Be careful of optical illusions since I had to zoom out to a fairly wide angle to get everything in one frame:



(Before someone asks, this pink stuff is from a huge roll of shelf paper given to me by a neighbor.  It's dimensionally stable and free!)

The mockup material is actually canvas drill, not muslin, so there is some stiffness and body.

The button was placed as indicated in the draft.  The center front line was not specified.

The back seam is almost straight as shown, so it's not too surprising the coat does not fit close to the back at the waist.  Maybe taking this in would help shape the skirt better?

I will make up shoulder pads and turn the edges to their finished positions tomorrow.  Maybe by then someone will have spotted a glaring defect in the pattern.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

[TTailor]

Will you post the other half of the pattern as well?
These drafts often do not give you a precise CF location so I would calculate it by marking off the seam allowance on the front edge and then decide for yourself how much button overlap you need at the top button, so I usually choose 3/4".
Lets say on your pattern the CF line runs parallel then to the front through the second button.

As for the fit of the back, its your jacket so you get to decide if you want shaping and how much or how little. It is just something to think about.

Have to go will check in later, after work.

[peterle]

looking at your pattern it seems to me that your front shoulder is a very crooked. this makes the lapel fold line very long.
The effect is, the fronts gape towards the hem and the hem folds over like a godet in the side part. I´m sure the waistline of the pattern, when transfered to the toile, would form a significant V.
To try out wether this is the right theory, just pin away a horizontal wedge about 2" above the chestline of the fronts. the wedge should have about 2cm at the center front and fade out to 0 at the armhole.


two possibilities to alter:
-Work in the lapel fold line heavily with the iron and secure with a ribbon ( wich must be done in every case) to keep this line short. The front armholes of the toile will stay tight.
- reposition the shoulder line in the pattern. the new neckpoint should be a bit more to the right towards the center front. In this case the front armholes would loosen up a little. This has to be the method when working with fabric that does not take ironwork well like cotton or linnen.

Another tip: The closing button is usually more or less at the waistline, yours is 2" above. positioning the button is important for the proportions of a coat.

[posaune]

Peterle, I agree absolutley with you and Terri. The neckpoint is to wide out. So CF is too long in the upper part. Take out a wedge at the center of  lapelheight and if now to short open the draft for a wegde under the waist for lost length.
The front armhole l would prefare a bit more curved.
lg
posaune
(When you raise at shoulder you bring the neck point more to the center too and get rid of the length, quick and dirty)

[spookietoo]

I am loving this. Wonderful learning experience for improving my eye.

So, a question please to all:

Am I looking at this incorrectly? The blue shirt, to me, seems to indicate that the shoulder point is 3/4"- 1" forward on both sides. Would a forward shoulder adjustment be called for?

[jruley]

Here are today's changes:

I took in the center back 1/2" at the waist line, sloping off to nothing at the shoulder line and bottom.  This put some shape into the back, and helped a lot with the skirt issues at the sides.

To reduce the length of the roll line I angled the shoulder seam to shorten the  fronts 1/2" at neck point , with no change at the shoulder.

I turned up the hem to its finished length and the lapels to finished width.

I added shoulder pads.

Here are the new photos:

















To me the jacket looks better buttoned, but is really collapsing when unbuttoned, especially on the right side.  Maybe it's the crooked shoulder?  I tried adjusting for that by sliding the fronts outwards at the shoulder seam, but it made the collar pull away at the sides of the neck.  I'm sure there are ways of correcting that, so I may re-do it and show the results.

[jruley]

OK, here it is with the fronts straightened.  The only change from the last set of photos is to slide both fronts outward along the shoulder seams 1/2".  I found my mistake in attaching the collar so it does not pull away from the neck.


















Enough alterations have accumulated that I think my next step will be a new pattern incorporating them.  This will also let me show Terri both halves 


I might also extend the center front line to account for the amount taken out of the back

[peterle]

The back looks much better now.

I think the fronts did not really improve. They are yet gaping. The edges of a good fitting coat hang parallel even unbuttoned.
The  front armholes are really tight now because of the pads. The pads should be placed more to the back I think.

I think your neckpoint is a lot too far out. When you lengthen your dartline you will see the neck point is positioned nearly 2" behind this line. It should be placed roughly on  or even in front of this line. (Look up your T&C pattern for reference. Is it this one? http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=949).
Parallel shift your shoulderseam towards the center front, and reconnect this new points to the armhole and neckhole in a smooth line. Thus your front parts can hang from a more central point.