Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Well, it sounds to me like you could let some out of the front shoulder and take some from the back shoulder.  But I'm just an untrained amateur.

You could probably do the iron work with just snipping the basting but I think it is not very handy. When doing ironwork with double layered fabric don't forget to flip the material and repeat the process to the underlayer.

Jruley is right:
Front balance: the vertical distance from the chest line to the neck point.
Back balance: the vertical distance from the back chest line to the back neck Point.
Nativ speakers please don't be shy and tell us wether there is a more common term in English?

To lengthen the front balance slash your paper pattern horizontally and insert a 1cm strip. Best level is at the most narrow spot, where the "stretching" has the least impact to the armhole curve.
Same for the back, but you have to take out 1cm in your case.
On your cut fabric pieces you just lay your paper pattern on the fabric and shift it 1cm up (at the front) and remark the gorge-neckhole-shoulder line.
Same for the back, but 1cm downwards.

The reason for the front/back distribution is to keep the given scye size and circumference. Just shortening the back balance for 2cm would also shorten it's size and circumference.

OK, thanks Peter, I think that all makes sense. Much appreciated. Obviously ripping it down, making the adjustments, and basting it back up again is going to take me some time, but I'll update with how I get on.

Thanks again for your time and patience. 

Sorry, no shortcuts in tailoring.

When you do the ironwork first lay the same pattern pieces precisely onto each other and do it double layered. Thus you make sure both pieces get stretched for the same amount.

Well, that took a bit longer than anticipated... On the one hand, real life really gets in the way, and on the other, I had quite a bit of trouble getting the shoulders even halfway right - I've been plagued with folds from the back neck to the middle of the shoulders. This is about my fourth attempt, and I'm still not entirely happy with it, but I'm about out of ideas about what to do about it.

Pinned:




Unpinned:




The balance is much better, as is the back waist, but the upper back is a bit of a mess now. I'm guessing I haven't corrected the curve of the centre back seam properly.

Thoughts?

Maybe the back is a little too wide?

Peterle will know better...

The balance is much better now.
I'm not sure about the reason of the folds in the upper back. These are stress folds, they form a triangle and point symmetrical to two points mid shoulder seam.
What is there underneath? Your shoulder blades? The end of the shoulder pads?

Why do you think you did not do the back seam curve correctly? What did you do?

My approach would be to open the shoulder seam leaving 1cm at the neck end and about 3-4cm at the sleeve end closed. Will the folds relax and settle down? If yes: Change the shoulder accordingly.
If No: I would open also the outer end of the shoulder and do a shoulder fitting. (Streaking the fabric gently upwards with the flat hand so it lies smooth, pin, marking new shoulder seam line.) Obviousely You need a second person to do this. Or a personal dummy.

The thing about the back seam was just a guess... I just tried to blend the CB seam in from around the chest line after moving the pattern down.

There's quite a bit of hollowing applied to the shoulder seams, so it could be related to that. That might also explain the trouble I was having with folds appearing behind the neck point.

Doesn't help that it's literally the worst possible place to try and work on by yourself...

I'll try your suggestion of opening the shoulder seams.

OK, opening the shoulder seams seems to have helped, and I think I've figured out what's happened...

The chap / course I've been following takes what I think might be a slightly unconventional approach to the shoulder seam - he doesn't put any fullness in the back shoulder, and he hollows both the front and back shoulder seam by about 1cm from the original pattern line. He then stretches both front and back shoulder to accommodate the hollowing.

What I think has probably happened is that when I've redrawn the shoulder seam after moving it to correct the balance, I've drawn a straight line on fabric that has already been distorted by stretching - and then I've hollowed it again, and stretched it some more. It looks like reducing the hollowing of the shoulder seams should resolve this.

Time to take it apart again...

Curious about that shoulder treatment- does he say why he does it that way?  Could it be to accommodate a different shape shoulder pad than you are using?

OK, a concave shoulder line will definetly have an impact. It explains those strange stress folds.
I'm also trying to understand, what should be the aim of concave shoulder lines? Hollowing the back shoulder line will take length where it is needed most-over the shoulder blades. You See the effect in your coat.
When you want a concave shoulder you do it at the front. You stretch the front neck hole and support it with a permanent gusset in the canvas underneath.

I knew that would open a can of worms...

Fortunately, one of the things I like about this particular chap is that he does explain his reasoning for pretty much everything. He doesn't just say "do this, do that", he goes through the theory of what he's trying to achieve, how that relates to the anatomy, and the pros and cons of different approaches.

On the back shoulder, his argument (as I understand it) is that it's the wrong place to put fullness to accommodate the shoulder blade, and that for most people it's better achieved by gathering the back of the scye. He doesn't say you should never put fullness in the back shoulder, but he does argue that you shouldn't do it automatically - instead it should be a conscious decision made for a specific reason.

The first set of images I shared had the shoulder constructed in this way, and it seemed fine. I think the problem here is that I've re-applied the hollowing of the shoulder on top of fabric that was already stretched.

Obviously I have no idea who's right in this argument, and one of the things I've realised through the process of getting this far is that everybody does everything differently, which sometimes makes it difficult to combine advice from different sources.

Still, I've done these shoulders enough times now that doing them a couple more times doesn't really seem so bad any more, so what I think I'll do is try them again hollowed in the way I've been doing up until now, only a bit less, and then try them again with the back shoulder straight and with some fullness.

There are 3 separate videos on shoulders in the course I'm working from...

The first covers the shoulder anatomy and the position and design of the seams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nul6HxPVlhI&list=PLWamty-BkYri1k4esNez5hk_DI3I8eZdk
The second covers the arguments for and against fullness in the back shoulder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHC6FuHaJgs&list=PLWamty-BkYri1k4esNez5hk_DI3I8eZdk
And the third is the practical lesson on preparing, basting, and canvassing the shoulder, basting the the armhole, and inserting the shoulder pads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7asmuj8vlbc&list=PLWamty-BkYri1k4esNez5hk_DI3I8eZdk

I think your second link was meant to be this one, Dunc:


I've never liked the look of fullness at the shoulder seam and don't put it in any garment. Like Reza, I came to the conclusion long ago that it wasn't necessary most of the time. Place the fingertips of one hand on the opposite shoulder tip, right at the edge of the shoulder. Swing your arm back and forth. There's no movement. If we raise the arm horizontally, away from the body, then there is movement but the width of the top shoulder narrows/is actually shortened. If we now crook our arm at the elbow and bring it forward, we shorten/narrow that width even more. We don't require ease at the shoulder seam, it's needed further down over the blades. That's where all the expansion is.

I've been following Reza for sometime now. I don't agree with every little thing he does, but at least he explains his method, as you say Dunc.

Yes, thanks! I've corrected the link now.

I don't feel remotely qualified to judge the merits of the argument for or against, so I think the best thing to do is try both and see how it goes.

Quote from: Gerry on February 12, 2025, 12:38:43 AMWe don't require ease at the shoulder seam, it's needed further down over the blades. That's where all the expansion is.

Hmmm...
Maybe that's why 19th century cutting guides used a narrower back neck, with a diagonal seam which came down over the prominence of the shoulder blades?  With the front seam cut rounder than the back was hollowed, to provide that bit of length over the blades?

Maybe the main reason we put the seam on top of the shoulder today is to better accommodate checks and stripes, which get very badly distorted by the old fashioned cut?

Like Dunc, this is just unqualified speculation...