Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Hi everybody,

I am currently experimenting with different shirt drawing techniques. I found a Spanish (Balleste Barcelona https://www.instagram.com/ballestebarcelona/?hl=hu) draft, it is a bit similar to Budd's edit.
However, I found that it calculates the height of the yoke with a formula, but does not fold it back from the front pattern like Budd does, so I get a much higher back than, for example, in the Müller system.
I'm also trying to decipher Budd's technique, do you have any tips on how to edit it? Do you fold the yoke back to get enough back height?
Could the solution be that, according to Müller, I draw the yoke and the front neck separately, and thus fold the yoke back to get the necessary point on the back panel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H7dO7peN2g&t=923s

Also, in the Italian Ligas system, I saw a solution where the shoulder slope of the rear pattern and the front pattern are the same.





I hope you can help me.

Thanks,
Akos

Also, if I work with a measured armhole depth, but I know that my shoulders are angular, is it enough to adjust the shoulder angle only, without the armhole height?

With standard posture, the cloth at the back breaks over the ridge that runs along the top of the shoulder blade (scapula) and drapes down from there. That's the place to run the yoke's seam-line IMO. This results in a relatively skinny yoke compared to a lot of ready to wear, which can have the seam lower down the back, mostly for ease of sewing.

Why estimate when you can measure? The ridge of the scapula is thicker towards its extremities. Feel at this point for its middle and mark off this horizontal in chalk, at the CB point, on the garment your subject is wearing. Measure down from the nape of the neck to the chalk mark and transfer this drop to your pattern. A pin can be used instead of chalk.

If measuring yourself: with the hand on the opposite side of your body, reach over and feel for the ridge of the scapula. Stick a pin into whatever you're wearing (preferably a shirt), horizontally, towards this end point. Take off your garment and measure down from the nape. Don't use the hand on the same side of the body that you're pinning. You'll end up raising the whole of the shoulder in order to do this, making it harder to feel the ridge and most likely throwing out the measurement.

Personally, I don't like the standard approach of bringing the shoulder seam forward. The yoke is often cut so that the grain runs horizontally across the shoulders; or, if the yoke is split, with its shoulder seams on grain, creating a slight diagonal direction of grain in relation to the back. Both approaches prevent the shoulder from stretching out. However, when using patterned cloth, I find this clash of pattern direction with the fronts too visible (from the front), so I run the shoulder seam right on top of the shoulder. It makes for a very skinny yoke though, and you need to use the shirt makers' technique of doing the burrito method to close yokes, and not the home-sewers version of rolling up the back piece.

If you want a more conventional yoke, then the armhole and front pattern is drafted before determining how far the shoulder seam is brought forward. Typically, the length of the armscye from the underarm to the top of the shoulder will be less at the back. Ideally you make them even, so the front seam is brought forward by whatever amount is needed to make this possible. Usually between a quarter to a half inch, but obviously it varies. It's not the end of the world if you're not exact, but this does align the seams at shoulder and armpit when ironing sleeves. The seam end at the neck opening is brought forward by the same amount, or similar. There's no 'must-do' rule for this, though. You can bring the whole seam more forward for strength/aesthetics. Typically, ready-to-wear will drop the seam more at the neck, to keep the front's seam more horizontal/less towards the bias. This can also be done to make the shoulder angles the same, which makes things easier to draft and cut with some systems (which I don't know about, so don't ask!  )

Incidentally, incorporating darts at the edges of the yoke seam at the back - a tuck, in reality, with a yoke that isn't split - requires extra cloth/length at the back's shoulder tips. We add cloth in order to take it away and create shape (the darts being no different that those on trousers, in this respect). The dart causes the yoke to follow the natural curvature of the shoulder blades at their ends. If this compensation isn't made, then any 'pinch' at the yoke line creates snugness across the shoulders (a bad thing, because we need ease); or, in the worst case scenario, shortness in the back armscye, pulling the shoulder seam towards the back (often twisting it, visibly) and creating drag lines at the front. I speak from bitter experience (a mistake I kept making when I was learning to draft shirts).

Hi tmakos,  Thank you for your post. It's great to see.

I maybe haven't read something, but what is Budd's edit?

Can you say what is the base for your draft?

I notice that in the fotos on your link there is excess fabric in the yoke of the shirts, even when the gentleman is leaning forward.  Is that a look you prefer? There are many personal tastes for sure.

G I

Quote from: Gerry on November 13, 2023, 09:25:45 PMWith standard posture, the cloth at the back breaks over the ridge that runs along the top of the shoulder blade (scapula) and drapes down from there. That's the place to run the yoke's seam-line IMO. This results in a relatively skinny yoke compared to a lot of ready to wear, which can have the seam lower down the back, mostly for ease of sewing.

Why estimate when you can measure? The ridge of the scapula is thicker towards its extremities. Feel at this point for its middle and mark off this horizontal in chalk, at the CB point, on the garment your subject is wearing. Measure down from the nape of the neck to the chalk mark and transfer this drop to your pattern. A pin can be used instead of chalk.

If measuring yourself: with the hand on the opposite side of your body, reach over and feel for the ridge of the scapula. Stick a pin into whatever you're wearing (preferably a shirt), horizontally, towards this end point. Take off your garment and measure down from the nape. Don't use the hand on the same side of the body that you're pinning. You'll end up raising the whole of the shoulder in order to do this, making it harder to feel the ridge and most likely throwing out the measurement.

Personally, I don't like the standard approach of bringing the shoulder seam forward. The yoke is often cut so that the grain runs horizontally across the shoulders; or, if the yoke is split, with its shoulder seams on grain, creating a slight diagonal direction of grain in relation to the back. Both approaches prevent the shoulder from stretching out. However, when using patterned cloth, I find this clash of pattern direction with the fronts too visible (from the front), so I run the shoulder seam right on top of the shoulder. It makes for a very skinny yoke though, and you need to use the shirt makers' technique of doing the burrito method to close yokes, and not the home-sewers version of rolling up the back piece.

If you want a more conventional yoke, then the armhole and front pattern is drafted before determining how far the shoulder seam is brought forward. Typically, the length of the armscye from the underarm to the top of the shoulder will be less at the back. Ideally you make them even, so the front seam is brought forward by whatever amount is needed to make this possible. Usually between a quarter to a half inch, but obviously it varies. It's not the end of the world if you're not exact, but this does align the seams at shoulder and armpit when ironing sleeves. The seam end at the neck opening is brought forward by the same amount, or similar. There's no 'must-do' rule for this, though. You can bring the whole seam more forward for strength/aesthetics. Typically, ready-to-wear will drop the seam more at the neck, to keep the front's seam more horizontal/less towards the bias. This can also be done to make the shoulder angles the same, which makes things easier to draft and cut with some systems (which I don't know about, so don't ask!  )

Incidentally, incorporating darts at the edges of the yoke seam at the back - a tuck, in reality, with a yoke that isn't split - requires extra cloth/length at the back's shoulder tips. We add cloth in order to take it away and create shape (the darts being no different that those on trousers, in this respect). The dart causes the yoke to follow the natural curvature of the shoulder blades at their ends. If this compensation isn't made, then any 'pinch' at the yoke line creates snugness across the shoulders (a bad thing, because we need ease); or, in the worst case scenario, shortness in the back armscye, pulling the shoulder seam towards the back (often twisting it, visibly) and creating drag lines at the front. I speak from bitter experience (a mistake I kept making when I was learning to draft shirts).

Hello Gerry,

Thank you very much for your detailed description, it's very helpful.

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Quote from: Schneiderfrei on November 14, 2023, 10:04:57 AMHi tmakos,  Thank you for your post. It's great to see.

I maybe haven't read something, but what is Budd's edit?

Can you say what is the base for your draft?

I notice that in the fotos on your link there is excess fabric in the yoke of the shirts, even when the gentleman is leaning forward.  Is that a look you prefer? There are many personal tastes for sure.

G I

Hi Schneiderfrei,

I'm trying to decipher Budd's technique from the Kirby-style video. I probably used the wrong term (edit), I meant editing the pattern/drafting. The Instagram page I linked to sells their own shirt pattern system, and it somewhat resembles Budd's technique. In the video I linked (around 13:15 minutes in), Darren folds the yoke back, obtaining reference points. This step is missing in the Spanish version, resulting in a much higher back. I'm just trying to figure out how Budd draws the yoke separately and why he folds it back.

The link to the Spanish system:https://www.etsy.com/listing/1551561413/tailor-made-shirts-pattern-making-system?click_key=978416485f4e248638787d705c1150069011df33%3A1551561413&click_sum=abc4e8c1&ref=shop_home_active_3
The image I attached is from the Italian Ligas system, recommended by a pattern maker from Sicily (if I remember correctly, his name is Luca). Due to copyright reasons, I didn't want to upload the entire design, although Mr. Ligas provides free access to the shirt pattern.
https://ligastorino.com/

Generally, I prefer the seam running across the top of my shoulder, but I'm experimenting and trying to learn more systems. In the Müller system, the formula resulted in a larger chest width than the back width, which is frustrating. Although through experience, I roughly know how to provide the correct chest width measurement, curiosity drives me toward exploring other systems.

Akos

tmakos, in the video he uses the front pattern, in conjunction with the folded yoke, to determine and mark the position of the yoke's seam-line on the back. The front seam of the yoke is aligned with that of the front pattern and the yoke has been folded along the top of the shoulder. Note that he uses a bradawl tool to mark the back piece (placed underneath the top).

Although the back seam of the yoke is horizontal, it looks like it's at a slight angle with the back when folded over to that side. He then draws in a curve to that dropped position at the armscye. So he's effectively incorporated a dart/tuck into the back. The yoke seam will remain horizontal, though.

Unless someone here uses a similar system, I don't know how you'd figure out his way of drafting the yoke. It isn't shown in the video. It's possible that they use a standard block for the yoke and everything (positionally) is determined by that card-marker they use to determine the front shoulder slope.

Quote from: Gerry on November 14, 2023, 09:32:15 PMtmakos, in the video he uses the front pattern, in conjunction with the folded yoke, to determine and mark the position of the yoke's seam-line on the back. The front seam of the yoke is aligned with that of the front pattern and the yoke has been folded along the top of the shoulder. Note that he uses a bradawl tool to mark the back piece (placed underneath the top).

Although the back seam of the yoke is horizontal, it looks like it's at a slight angle with the back when folded over to that side. He then draws in a curve to that dropped position at the armscye. So he's effectively incorporated a dart/tuck into the back. The yoke seam will remain horizontal, though.

Unless someone here uses a similar system, I don't know how you'd figure out his way of drafting the yoke. It isn't shown in the video. It's possible that they use a standard block for the yoke and everything (positionally) is determined by that card-marker they use to determine the front shoulder slope.

Thank you once again for your comment.

I was wondering if it's possible to do this by using the Müller system's yoke and folding it over to the back?
Also, from what I saw in the video, it seems that the right angle isn't drawn from the transferred point but rather about 1.5 centimeters above it.

Quote from: tmakos on November 14, 2023, 09:44:09 PMI was wondering if it's possible to do this by using the Müller system's yoke and folding it over to the back?

You could use a standard block, but how do you determine the front shoulder angle to ensure that it fits you? Clearly Budd have a system.

Personally, I use points of the body to determine seam/dart/pocket/etc positions. It makes more sense doing this than estimating everything with systems; but it takes longer to draft (more measurements).

Quote from: Gerry on November 14, 2023, 10:00:58 PM

Quote from: tmakos on November 14, 2023, 09:44:09 PMI was wondering if it's possible to do this by using the Müller system's yoke and folding it over to the back?

You could use a standard block, but how do you determine the front shoulder angle to ensure that it fits you? Clearly Budd have a system.

Personally, I use points of the body to determine seam/dart/pocket/etc positions. It makes more sense doing this than estimating everything with systems; but it takes longer to draft (more measurements).

The most suitable method for measuring the neck angle? I've been doing this based on experience, but I'd like to be more consistent.
And which system has worked best for you in making shirts?

Quote from: tmakos on November 15, 2023, 03:01:37 AM

Quote from: Gerry on November 14, 2023, 10:00:58 PM

Quote from: tmakos on November 14, 2023, 09:44:09 PMI was wondering if it's possible to do this by using the Müller system's yoke and folding it over to the back?

You could use a standard block, but how do you determine the front shoulder angle to ensure that it fits you? Clearly Budd have a system.

Personally, I use points of the body to determine seam/dart/pocket/etc positions. It makes more sense doing this than estimating everything with systems; but it takes longer to draft (more measurements).

The most suitable method for measuring the neck angle? I've been doing this based on experience, but I'd like to be more consistent.
And which system has worked best for you in making shirts?

What I meant was, if one were using a block for the yoke - one which didn't change from person-to-person and where the yoke's front-seam angle is always fixed - then we'd need a way for determining the front pattern's shoulder slope for that particular yoke, in order to get the correct position at the back. It's possible that Budd have a system for doing this. Then again, perhaps they draft each yoke from scratch. It's a shame it wasn't shown/clarified in Kirby's video.

I use my own variation of Michael Rohr's method to determine shoulder slope, from an old 1940s book. Don McCunn also has his variation of the method. You treat the shoulder tip as a pair of coordinates. Two sets of separate measurements for front and back; and two sets for each side of front and back if one shoulder drops relative to the other.

The first coordinate is the measurement from the shoulder tip (acromion) to the CF/CB at natural-waist level. The second coordinate - this is my own deviation from the method - is the length along the top of the shoulder, from the side of the neck to the acromion.

If you think of these measurements as arcs, then where they bisect is the position of the shoulder tip. A straight line is then drawn from the side of the neck to the acromion position and extended by a quarter of an inch, to prevent the arm seam from riding up onto the shoulder: effectively, we're adding a little ease at the seam ends (things can feel tight otherwise).

The downside to this, when making shirts, is that a conventional sloper has to be drafted first, then modified to accommodate a yoke. Shirt makers have their own systems/drafts to eliminate this unnecessary first step.

Thank you, Gerry. I think I need to digest this information in my native language.

Do you have any tips on how to make set-in sleeves easily? I've been trying the classic French seam, which requires a lot of ironing but works well with thin fabrics. Is there a noticeable difference in feel between set-in sleeves and sleeves sewn in with side seams?

Quote from: tmakos on November 16, 2023, 04:05:08 AMThank you, Gerry. I think I need to digest this information in my native language.

Do you have any tips on how to make set-in sleeves easily? I've been trying the classic French seam, which requires a lot of ironing but works well with thin fabrics. Is there a noticeable difference in feel between set-in sleeves and sleeves sewn in with side seams?

The advantage of set-in sleeves is that the sleeve seam can be offset from the body's side seam. This avoids all that bulk under the arm, which is difficult to sew when doing the arm and body seams as one.  An example is shown here (scroll down)

https://www.swann-paris.com/shirt-quality.html

Shave about three eighths off the front of your sleeve pattern - though you might need more depending on the seam allowance you use - and add it to the back of the pattern. I don't cut up patterns up to do this, I merely correct the initial draft immediately after drawing it, keeping each end of the sleeve cap relatively flat to facilitate this.

To sew set-in sleeves I loosely baste them in place, distributing any ease along the back shoulders. The baste should be loose enough so that material can be shifted here and there under foot while sewing, to realign/correct things if need be.

I bias-bind all my seams, though I'm still trying to improve the method for sleeves. It works beautifully for the long seams, but a little uneven on the armhole seams (not that you can see this from the outside, which is the main thing). It looks good enough there, but I'm sure I can better my results and I'm still experimenting (I have a few ideas).

The basic method:

Align your pieces, right-sides-together, back piece on the bottom. Align a strip of flat, bias tape (cut your own), about an inch and a half wide, with the seam edges of the shirting, right-side down. Using a quarter-of-an-inch foot (a quilting foot with a built-in, quarter of an inch seam guide - they're widely available for every type of machine), sew the seam.

Press the seam open, then flat again. Now fold and press the bias towards the seam edges. Baste through all layers to hold them firmly in place. Wrap the bias round to the other side of the seam and press this fold. Run the seam through the quarter inch foot again. Because of the thickness of the bias, the whole piece is shifted to the left very slightly, so this second line of stitching hits the bias tape right on the edge of its first fold. Having said that, the needle can easily stray so you have to align your work with the guide of the foot in advance, then constantly monitor the needle as you sew, making sure it's hitting the edge. Best to do things in short bursts.

Flip everything to the other side so that the loose edge of the bias is on top. Now run the lower blade of your shears under it, cutting along the seam and reducing it to around an eighth. Press the seam flat using a sleeve board and fell. You can do this from the right-side, running the blade/edge-guide of the foot in the seam. Again, because of the thickness of the bias, the seam will be shifted over to the left and the needle should hit its edge, even though you're sewing blind (so to speak). Alternatively, fell from the inside. Exactly the same thing, but at least you can check that the needle is hitting the edge. Personally, I prefer to top stitch from the right side of the cloth. What looks good on one side doesn't necessarily follow on the other side.

The first line of stitching goes through three layers, essentially staying the main seam with the bias. The second line of stitching is a hair's-breadth away and goes through five layers. This reinforces the seam, making it very strong, though its main purpose is to secure the bias, preventing it from splaying of pleating under the foot when felling. The final line of stitching only goes through three layers, two of which are the fold of the bias. This secures the seam but makes it flexible, due to the stretchy nature of bias. It's possible that the very ends of the shirting seams are caught too, but any stresses will turn these edges into lint pretty quickly, so we're basically dealing with three layers.

The end result looks very similar to a hemmed seam, which is popular among bespoke makers, but because the shirting isn't wrapping over itself, which is normally the case, the seam is very clean and pucker-free. Plus I can keep it to a skinny quarter of an inch, yet it's very strong. Photo here:

https://flic.kr/p/2pfYJ7j

Full shirt here:

https://flic.kr/p/2p2GR5w

Another benefit of set in sleeves is the offset rotates the sleeve forward a bit, which follows how the arm naturally hangs on most people. This can also be achieved by removing some of the sleeve pattern on one side and attaching it to the other, which gives you a rotated sleeve without needing to set in the sleeve. However, this obviously doesn't eliminate extra bulk in the seam at the sleeve. I remember one person on the old C&T forum that preferred to do it this way. It's all about which trade offs you find acceptable.