Question for sleeve lovers

[posaune]

I had recently a discussion with a friend about sleeves. I told him I had to rotate the whole sleeve back about 1 cm in the armhole to get a nice fall with a special posture. No other alteration are necessary.
He thought it over and came up with those pics

1. The normal sleeves position

2. you see the tip of the side body is 1cm away from the undersleeve  line

3. Sleeve rotated backwards 0,8 cm (all the sleeve mark on the body) .But see the tip of the side body is now only 0,5 cm from the undersleeve line.

4. He asked me if this can solve the problem?
I would lie do say that I have had spend a thought about the position of the undersleeve line. But I think his suggestion is faulty.
What do you think? Is the position of the undersleeve line as crucical??
lg
posaune
seeing the pics now I think I mixed forward with backwards. In my opinion he has moved it forward - but I have difficulties with right and left too.  Anyway if forward or backward rotating it will cause the same problem.

[TTailor]

My first thought is that at some point the undersleeve changes direction, so to speak, and the sleeeve and armhole can only match for a certain distance.
If the sleeve has to be rotated forwards or back did you need to change the armhole shape as well?
But I have not thought too much about it and maybe I dont understand the question properly.

[Schneiderfrei]

Hi posaune,

Is this situation of the 1 cm difference on every draft or just this particular one?

Does that difference serve a purpose ie shifting fabric around the body or could it be an error.

G

[Tailor Fritz]

I think it was in the C&T post "Matching sleeve and armhole" where it showed that the undersleeve curves away from the side body armhole for a purpose.
Along with a bit of ease in the undersleeve it allows for a fuller hind arm. http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=58

Whether you keep the armhole shape and correct the run of the sleeve or vice versa doesn't really matter, as long as the shapes still match.
When you rotate forward (up) the undersleeve needs to be fuller to get the old shape relation back (same shape as and distance to side body). When moved backwards (up) you need to alter (hollow) the front of sleeve and hollow the undersleeve run. You also need to move the sleeve's pitches accordingly.

[Fero]

My first thought is that at some point the undersleeve changes direction, so to speak, and the sleeeve and armhole can only match for a certain distance.
If the sleeve has to be rotated forwards or back did you need to change the armhole shape as well?
But I have not thought too much about it and maybe I dont understand the question properly.

Hi Terry, see pic no.4 ,may be she is asking ,if the white chalk (pointed by the arrow) needs to be done to get the original shape of the sleeve back .

[peterle]

Posaune, how was the sleeve hanging before the alteration? What was the problem you solved with the rotating?

In my eyes rotating the sleeve in the armhole mainly changes the position of the elbow and lower edge relatively to the armhole. The whole elbow line and cuff line will shift forwards or backwards. This effect could also be done by shifting the elbow and hem line in the pattern.

On the other hand rotating the sleeve means to shift the highest point (and lowest) of the sleeve crown. Shifting this point can be necessary to accommodate a specific shoulder , that has a pitch point more forward or backward than usual. This effect could also be done with reshaping the crown.

In both cases I think rotating the sleeve is a quick and dirty method,  that just works in small boundaries. But due to the fact it always changes two things at once, it can have unwanted side effects.

regarding your question, I think it´s not the distance of the underarm seam to the side tip, it´s the shifted pitch point of the crown that makes the changes work (as you can see in the 4th pic)

[posaune]

Well Peterle, the lady stands bend with the neck to the front - the back is rounded - old people.
There was a fold at middle front sleeve.  You just want to tire it up or pinch it out. The fold is worse when I do a tight sleeve, it is way better with a coat sleeve. I have pinched it out - not good. Rotating does the trick.
Now Fritz wrote
When you rotate forward (up) the undersleeve needs to be fuller to get the old shape relation back (same shape as and distance to side body). When moved backwards (up) you need to alter (hollow) the front of sleeve and hollow the undersleeve run. You also need to move the sleeve's pitches accordingly
I have done a drawing: First normal situation. second the sleeves rotated 1 cm. You see how the front sleeve comes forward (what Peterle wrote) now second Pic I have cut 1 cm away from the back sleeve and moved it to the front. Is this the way Fritz wrote?  My mind boggles (in english)
lg
posaune

[Greger]

This book has some details about sleeves.
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2011&hl=sytner
The link might still work.
One chapter devoted to sleeves.

[peterle]

Well, I see...
I think a bent back with forward neck (Witwenbuckel?) changes the posture in the following way: the arms keep the same position (due to gravity) but the body kind of rotates in the shoulder joint. So the relativ position of the body and the arms change (very similar to lifting the arm to the front).The bottom of the scye rotates backwards pulling the sleeve also backwards. Thus the sleeve gets tight at the front biceps, causing horizontal/ horseshoe folds in the front.

By altering the front and back pattern ( long back balance, short front balance, smaller chest width, wider back width) you adapted the armhole to the body, but keeping the notches for the sleevehead, also kept the relative position of the sleeve to the body. But hence the arms changed position relatively to the body, also the sleeve has to change the position. Hemline forwards, pitch point of the sleeve head backwards. ( think of a teddy bear: bending the body of the teddy and keeping the arms vertical makes the pitchpoint of the arm meet a different spot on the shoulder.)
So I think simple rotation can do the trick in this situation, and I think there was no need to change the sleeve head because you yet adapted the armhole to the specific situation.

[Tailor Fritz]

It's quite hard to explain without the proper images, but I'll give it a try.
This is a gif I made a few years ago and it shows how the crown changes when the hang of the sleeve changes.



When the arm changes position (due to stance/ posture) it also changes the armhole.
For example: An erect figure needs a longer front and a shorter back armhole, for a stooping figure it's the opposite.
Lets assume that the shape of the armhole doesn't change at all, yet you still have to change the sleeve crown.
I find the "easiest" way to do this to slash the crown roughly at half it's crown height, using the middle of the cut as a pivoting point.
For an erect figure you open the front of the crown (which closes the back)



For a stooping figure do the opposite.
Last step is to correct the run of the sleeve seams to get smooth lines.

Posaune:

Remember what they show in the Rundschau ladies book about how you are supposed to copy the shape of the lower armhole into the sleeve?
You basically do the same when you change the pitch. The distance between Äe and S (side seam) changes, same goes for the distance between Äe and the Kp (top of crown) and all the other ones in the draft.

[spookietoo]

Everyone, thank you for all of this info. I'm dealing with rounded back & forward head for myself and recently corrected some problems with the sleeve by pivoting as a quick fix - but I'm wanting a better end result and had planned to redraft scye and sleeve this weekend.

Thank you for all of the suggestions this should be a great help.

I also need to accommodate rotated elbows and quite frankly felt it would be easiest to sort out the scye and cap first before dealing with the elbows (working from the top down) Am I wrong in my thinking?

[peterle]

Spookietoo, what do you mean with rotated elbows? Elbows shifted more forward or more backward then usual? or something different like a turned arm?

It´s always good to make only one alteration at the time. Especially scye and cap alterations influence the position of the elbows. ( Doing Fritz´s alteration of the second pic will shift the elbow backwards for example)

[spookietoo]

Peterle - apparently at a normal stance with arms at rest at sides, the palms of the hands should  rest against the sides of the body. When I stand with arms at rest, my palms are to the back of me. Maybe this is what you are calling a "turned arm"?

Over the last few months, I ran across an explanation of the "rotated elbow" issue on one of the home sewist forums, but didn't realize I had the problem at the time. (Now, of course, I can't find that post!) I needed to complete my jacket nonetheless and realized rotating the sleeve helped other problems, and decided the elbow issue was of lesser importance to be dealt with later.

I'll address the shoulder and armscye first. Thanks.