A Close-Fitting Sloper

[jruley]

Here it is with the new shoulder yoke.  Getting the fullness in the right place really helped.  Taking the surplus material out of the back side seams also helped with the bagginess.














Here it is hanging from the top button, with the right side seam freed up a few inches below the chest line:

[peterle]

Oh I see, you had a busy weekend.

It improved a lot I think.
The uppest back is smooth now.

But I think you need the yoke seam a bit higher.
Can you see where the diagonal folds point to at the shoulderblades? This is where your yoke seam should be. This is the peak point of your shoulder blades, and here is the point where the tip of the dart should be.

Start with the piece of the third pic in post 89: this is how the dart should be located. Draw a horizontal line through the tip of the dart and  and cut it from the armhole to the tip of the dart.
Fold the dart close. A new dart will open towards the armhole. The dart edge and the line will be your back yokeseam.

For the front yokeseam I like to shift the seam line approx. 2cm to the front. At this place you can hollow the seamlines 0,5cm to fit the hollow of the body in this area.

[jruley]

With these additional changes maybe now it's time for a new toile.  Before I do that, do you think the yoke made any change to the balance?

[peterle]

The back balance yet seems to be too short relatively to the front.
When you take the cabinets edge as reference horizontal line, you can see how much the chestline in the back is higher than in the front. This is to be equalized.

You don´t need the sleeves for adjusting the balance.
You could just pin a narrow strip across the chest to test the effect of shortening the front balance.

Part of the reason for the"dancing" back hem is your forward hip posture I think. it is not only the balance.

You dont need a new toile. save time, work and fabric and keep this.

[jruley]

The back balance yet seems to be too short relatively to the front.
When you take the cabinets edge as reference horizontal line, you can see how much the chestline in the back is higher than in the front. This is to be equalized.

I see the front chest line lower than the back when the toile is unbuttoned.

But when it is buttoned (first six photos), the front is higher than the back.

So which one is to be believed?

[peterle]

I didn´t realize that there are buttoned and unbuttoned pics. I didn´t scroll far enough up.

You have to judge the buttoned pics. But with opened/widened sides seam.

There the balance seems to be ok. the back chestline is nearly straight, hardly any curving.

When you alter the back dart as i wrote, the dart will also take a bit more out at the armhole than now. This would be good.

There is no need for a new toile, just open the dart portion of the current yokeseam and resew it straight/undarted. Then you can reinstall the dart only as it results from the pattern alteration. You don´t need an actual seam across the back.

[jruley]

There is no need for a new toile, just open the dart portion of the current yokeseam and resew it straight/undarted. Then you can reinstall the dart only as it results from the pattern alteration. You don´t need an actual seam across the back.

I will "flatten the dart" as you suggest and then recut the upper back to fit the new yoke.  I have to develop the new pattern piece anyway so may as well do it now.  Also want to extend the yoke into the upper front as you suggested in post #91.

Thanks,

Jim

[peterle]

Ok. But defining the yokeseams is usually one of the last steps, it´s just a detail. Fit is more important. Don´t forget you have to do a drop shoulder yet.

Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.

[jruley]

Ok. But defining the yokeseams is usually one of the last steps, it´s just a detail. Fit is more important. Don´t forget you have to do a drop shoulder yet.

I was thinking I could cut the yoke the same on both sides, and take out for the drop shoulder on the top of front and back.  Is there any reason this won't work?

Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.

Good thinking as always!

[peterle]

I was thinking I could cut the yoke the same on both sides, and take out for the drop shoulder on the top of front and back.  Is there any reason this won't work?

A drop shoulder adjustment usually involves also a shoulder slope adjustment for the dropped shoulder and sometimes a neck point adjustment. Doing this in the yoke seam will probably lead to new difficulties like diagonal drag lines. Maybe this is a quick and dirty method for shirtmakers, but when you make the effort to do a toile, take the other way.

[jruley]

OK, here is my development of the new yoke so peterle can find my mistakes.

Start with copying the upper back piece with the shoulder dart.  A line is squared out from CB at the level of the point of the dart.  This will be the yoke seam:



The old pattern piece is laid over the copy, and the dart is pivoted closed.  The outline is copied beyond the dart, and the dart seam line is copied on the old piece:




The shouder dart is re-opened, and the line transferred to the old piece is copied on the new one.  This transfers the dart from the shoulder to the scye, and will be the seam line on the back:



The yoke is extended by placing the front in position, overlapping the seams.  The scye and neck lines are copied, and a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern.  Seam allowance is added to this line. 

Here is the resulting piece after being cut out.  Seam lines are dashed (the shoulder seam location is still shown for reference).  A separate yoke piece can be copied from this, and the remainder (with seam added) attached to the back.

Looking at this I'm not sure I want the yoke to come down this far in front.  Any opinions?

[jruley]

A drop shoulder adjustment usually involves also a shoulder slope adjustment for the dropped shoulder and sometimes a neck point adjustment. Doing this in the yoke seam will probably lead to new difficulties like diagonal drag lines. Maybe this is a quick and dirty method for shirtmakers, but when you make the effort to do a toile, take the other way.

Based on this I will stop the yoke at the shoulder seam for now.  It can always be extended onto the front later.  Would still like to know if I did the development right this time.

[lepus]

Sorry to interrupt the flow here, but is that strange looking front extension ("a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern"?) really what peterle meant? Usually the shoulder seam line is shifted 1.5 or 2 cm towards the front in a parallel way:



lay front and back together at A, move shoulder line from A to B, true armhole at C (back shoulder is usually longer and eased in, to create a pseudo-dart)

It is common in shirt patterns and gives a pleasing effect, provided the original shoulder seam ran on top of the shoulder ridge of the body, i.e. the trapezius muscle. Because it moves the shoulder seam away from its most effective position, it should not be implemented before the shoulders are fitted.

End of interruption.

[jruley]

Sorry to interrupt the flow here, but is that strange looking front extension ("a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern"?) really what peterle meant?

Peterle suggested:

Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.

So, I put on the toile and had my wife chalk a line that appeared horizontal from the front.  It ran from the top of the CF line to a point about 1" from the seam at the shoulder end.

I laid the pieces together as you show, and located the line on the front.  I added one seam (1/2").  What I posted is the result.

I checked my closet, and none of my shirts have a front yoke this deep.  In fact the front seam appears to be parallel to the shoulder line in most cases.  Having made the draft I thought peterle might want to see it.

[majka]

Hello all, I'm back after being away some time.

It might be too late now, but for the yoke I would be tempted to use few methods from pattern draping in combination with the flat pattern making here.

First, instead of drawing the seams, I would pin a narrow black tape or thick black yarn where I want the seams to be. It has the advantage that you can move the tape freely and not leave any marks on the muslin when re-positioning. You can take photo, check the look and if necessary repeat until you like it. The same method I would use if I wanted / had to re-position the shoulder seams. The main reason is that I am fitting myself and more tries are necessary this way. You can better see the results in the mirror / photos as well. When you are sure the seam is in its final position, either baste the tape here or draw the line now and take the tape down.

Then I would draw and cut the yoke (with narrow seam allowances) and pin or baste OVER the current test garment to check the result once more. If this fits, and because I am thrifty and lazy, I would later cut the current front and back part on top where the new seam (with seam allowance) would be and continue from there.
Me personally, I am not re-cutting anything unless I have to. The only reason for me is that the current muslin is no longer usable - either too many marks on it, there are big changes in size of the pattern part or if the fabric got out of shape.