selvage denim trouser fitting

[Gerry]

The idea is you practice the drafts in miniature to get a feel for the process and then apply the principles to your real life measurements.

Ah, that makes sense Schneiderfrei, I thought I was going nuts. Too used to 'modern' (Edwardian) drafts! 

Edit: I think another reason it was done is because (as you point out) the diagrams are quarter scale, to ensure that they look properly proportioned. Therefore the intended size of the book's pages dictated the max measurements that could be used. Also, it's clear from those links I found, that their tape measures were quite short. So if they were practicing the system, there was only so much they could cope with.

All very confusing to the modern eye. I guess that pre-internet, people had to think for themselves and figured this one out no problem! 

[Hendrick]

I had a roof leaking and took the opportunity (or rather the necessity!) this week to do some (...)  cleaning up and going through boxes of old stuf... One of the finds; no less the 3 of the dreaded 1/4 scale rules that we used at college. These are in a white acethate or plastic that works like a dirt magnet for pencil lead; after a month these look like you poked the chimney with them. Any of remember these?


Cheers, Hendrick

[Chanterelle]

Hi all,

I spent a few years consulting for jeans co's. Denim jeans are not drafted like trousers. The pattern of, say a Levis's 501, is drafted with the side seams as straight as possible and cut with the sides following the selvedge of the fabric. Denim was, originally, woven on narrow looms so economics were important. I effect, the only shaping in an original jean is in the yoke (or riser) and the front pocket. No serging was done on the outseam, only the part holding the pocket lining ($). As yo can see in the image, the midback of the pant is extremely tilted and straight; this gives the 501 its famous "diaper"effect. At the same time, being cut nearly bias, it ad ads more flex to the pant than a hollow fork. I know this is a little extreme but to me 5pockets pants with a trouser cut always look a little unusual. A while ago I posted something about the foldline in trousers, I believe Gerry did also... Here you can see that the foldline is completely disregarded.

Cheers, Henndrick

Would you mind sharing the system you used when consulting? Other than a straight side seam, how were jeans drafted...i.e. what system are you using that drafts outward from the sideseam, keeping this straight?

[Hendrick]

There is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.

Cheers, Hendrick

[Chanterelle]

There is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.

Cheers, Hendrick

I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.

In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing

[Hendrick]

There is no ready system available for drafting selvedge jeans, although brave attempts exist. Important jeans manufacturers have huge archives and many of their vintage fits have been digitised and used in systems like Lectra, Gerber, Investronica and the like. Patternmakers tinker with these and adapt; grading is done by the system. I used to shop lots of vintage denims and workwear items, also dungarees and army items, have them meticulously taken apart and traced. It is a good idea to study the build of pantaloons, as Gerry indicated, because they are historically at the base of these cuts. The forms of jeans are generally rudimentary and un-personal. They are derived from workwear; one expects the wearer to "personalise" them trough use and wear. The sideseam is only there to accomodate the pockets and because the narrow width of the fabric.Every type of denim reacts differently to assembling and washing; for instance a seam made with a feller will shrink less than an open side seam, so each fabric requires adjustments. A whole different family of fits are the late 60ties and 7ties jeans, these are basically a fitted basin combined with a legform and have nothing to do with the classic 5 pocket denims, save for the fabric. Things get worse with stretch denims of course, 3, 4, 5 or sometimes more trial samples are no exception.

Cheers, Hendrick

I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.

In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing

Why not try to find a vintage pair of denims, try them on and rip them open for tracing? You can always work toward a personalised pattern...

I don't like wearing "jeans fit" jeans; wear them "pants fit" with a belt or braces.
I used to buy vintage 501 and 505 by the dozen, ripped the waisbands of and reduced them 1,25" and re-assembled them.

Cheers, Hendrick

[Gerry]

I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.

In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing

A ruler-straight centre back seam isn't going to flatter anyone, frankly; nor one with the slightest curve at its base, for that matter. Which is why so many people have saggy backsides to their jeans. The reason why many manufacturers have stuck with the old style of cut is because of ease of manufacture. It's much simpler to sew a double-lapped CB seam if it has little or no curvature. People forget that these cutting systems were for utilitarian wear, not for looking fashionable.

The rock and roll generation, who popularised jeans, sat in a bath full of water with their jeans on, in order to shrink them and get a better fit over the seat and thighs. Nowadays cloth is pre-shrunk so that doesn't work (not unless you buy those specially resurrected Levis 501s where the cloth isn't pre-shrunk). Hence all the ill-fitting jeans nowadays. So you have to ask yourself, have jeans ever looked good on you? If not, then you'll probably never have much success with them. Stick to trouser drafts and forget the selvedge look (my eyes tend to roll when I hear the word).

As for drafting selvedge jeans, start with the side seam. Simply draw a straight line, which becomes your reference for the circumference measurements. Modern bespoke makers tend to curve the side seam from the seat position to the high-hip/waist-seam; though the curvature is very subtle. This prevents the jeans from slipping off the hips of someone. You can see that reflected in Hendrick's diagrams. The quarter waist measurement is still taken from the side seam though. It's just a little displaced.

As for a yoke, just imagine pivoting normal trouser darts by 90 degrees, around each apex. The pivoted darts are incorporated into the seamline of the yoke. Plenty of vids on youtube demonstrate how to pivot darts. I wouldn't draft things like that, incidentally, but it will help to get clear in your mind the basic concept, especially if you practice with a scrap of paper.

Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid. Anyone know who I'm talking about? (and could you post a link?). And I didn't mean Paul Kruize, but simply got his nationality wrong; this guy is definitely German (he has a moustache IIR).

[Chanterelle]

I appreciate it. Will give the pantaloons another go. Cannot figure out the center back curve, or lack thereof, in fitting. So figured there was a method that I'm just not privy to.

In regular trousers, my back pattern has such a dramatic scoop to it, and long fork, both to accommodate the large posterior and rear pelvic tilt I've got going on...But all selvage denim patterns I've seen have a stick straight fork...just not seeing how that's going to be possible on my body, yet I've worn ready made selvage just fine in the past...must be a me thing

A ruler-straight centre back seam isn't going to flatter anyone, frankly; nor one with the slightest curve at its base, for that matter. Which is why so many people have saggy backsides to their jeans. The reason why many manufacturers have stuck with the old style of cut is because of ease of manufacture. It's much simpler to sew a double-lapped CB seam if it has little or no curvature. People forget that these cutting systems were for utilitarian wear, not for looking fashionable.

The rock and roll generation, who popularised jeans, sat in a bath full of water with their jeans on, in order to shrink them and get a better fit over the seat and thighs. Nowadays cloth is pre-shrunk so that doesn't work (not unless you buy those specially resurrected Levis 501s where the cloth isn't pre-shrunk). Hence all the ill-fitting jeans nowadays. So you have to ask yourself, have jeans ever looked good on you? If not, then you'll probably never have much success with them. Stick to trouser drafts and forget the selvedge look (my eyes tend to roll when I hear the word).

As for drafting selvedge jeans, start with the side seam. Simply draw a straight line, which becomes your reference for the circumference measurements. Modern bespoke makers tend to curve the side seam from the seat position to the high-hip/waist-seam; though the curvature is very subtle. This prevents the jeans from slipping off the hips of someone. You can see that reflected in Hendrick's diagrams. The quarter waist measurement is still taken from the side seam though. It's just a little displaced.

As for a yoke, just imagine pivoting normal trouser darts by 90 degrees, around each apex. The pivoted darts are incorporated into the seamline of the yoke. Plenty of vids on youtube demonstrate how to pivot darts. I wouldn't draft things like that, incidentally, but it will help to get clear in your mind the basic concept, especially if you practice with a scrap of paper.

Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid. Anyone know who I'm talking about? (and could you post a link?). And I didn't mean Paul Kruize, but simply got his nationality wrong; this guy is definitely German (he has a moustache IIR).

I have seen his videos and appreciate him, though I cannot find them now...when i need it

[Gerry]

Why not try to find a vintage pair of denims, try them on and rip them open for tracing? You can always work toward a personalised pattern...

A home-sewer I once saw on youtube had a pretty clever idea. She deliberately bought an oversize pair of jeans from a charity/thrift/goodwill store and carefully cut out the seams with her shears. This rendered her a toile (large seams included) which she used for the fitting/patterning process.

[Gerry]

Edit: There's a German selvedge maker who has a vid on youtube showing how he drafts his jeans. All very standard stuff. Unfortunately the results I get nowadays from youtube searches reflect how many followers a person/clown has, rather than showing the most relevant result (even if that option is selected); so I couldn't find the vid.

I'm pretty sure it was this chap. If so, he's removed his drafting and making content (understandable given the competition these days):

Nevertheless, if you pause things here and there, you'll get a good idea of the shaping required. I note that there's a little more of a curve to the CB than in many jeans drafts; so you'll probably have better luck following his example, Chanterelle.

[posaune]

in  Rundschau Book "HAKA SChnittkonstruktionen Hosen" you have a basic pants with a straight sideseam. Then you have a mexican style, a pants in used look, Gaucho pants and Jeans in Enginered Look - all with straight side seams - but with a better fitting seat curve. And the hem is wide - 52 cm.
lg
posaune

[Greger]

When I look at guys today I see a lot of flat seats because of the lack of physical activities. Before video games and other sitting times younger guys were very active. The jeans of the sixties through perhaps nineties were made for active body types. But, they only sorta fit. The last twenty years has been skinny legs. If you have big calf muscles, then what?
Plus, you have the wrong perspective, because you are thinking mass production instead of custom. A real tailor is going to look at a pattern system and know it is not going to fit. How can a system fit all the different body shapes? Not going to happen. This is why tailors do bast fitting with inlays. Take for example the back yoke. Are you going to cut straight lines or curved lines? Which way are you going to curve them? Is the part below that is sewn to the yoke going to be curved? The shape of the seat to crotch depends on what's needed. What kind of underwear? The old tailors would cut according to which leg the danglers are going to fall in. With modern underwear, not so much. You are not cutting for women here, nor mass production. So you don't think like that. A tailor won't put in front pants pockets like mass production either. They put in better pockets. The jeans back pants pockets would most likely be lined with pants pocketing. They last longer. The front and back fork most likely connect behind the scrotum to keep them separated. There are newer methods to move that forward. The fork can go up or down. Different body shapes have different requirements. Some tailors lengthen the front or back from knee to fork. This has to do with more movements of the leg. Some tailors think in parts. Blending them together so as a whole the garment looks splendid and fits very well.

[Chanterelle]

So here is the latest toile using the trews pattern linked earlier in the thread. I had avoided this pattern because it just looked wrong for my body. Given the largeness of my seat--from the side it protrudes quite a bit, which means I need a longer fork I think--I couldn't construct the draft so the front and back center seam ended at the same level. I think this is an improvement, but anticipate having to lengthen the back fork once again...

[Chanterelle]

in  Rundschau Book "HAKA SChnittkonstruktionen Hosen" you have a basic pants with a straight sideseam. Then you have a mexican style, a pants in used look, Gaucho pants and Jeans in Enginered Look - all with straight side seams - but with a better fitting seat curve. And the hem is wide - 52 cm.
lg
posaune

Thank you! That is quite the expensive book. Do you have scans of the appropriate drafts? That would be incredible

[Schneiderfrei]

Do you have scans of the appropriate drafts? That would be incredible

Sadly it is still under copyright.  We don't usually post recent publications for that reason.

It is in German and it is full of a wide range of drafting possibilities.

I always found it worth scanning, OCR-ing and reproducing drafts, despite starting with hardly any German language.