A Close-Fitting Sloper

[jruley]

Did you change the front yoke seam, former dart? It ends a lot more towards the front than before. Please reassure you didnīt shorten the front with the new seam, because the front balance seems to be shorter/ too short at the moment. (diagonal folds starting at the nipples).

I did not change the front yoke seam, but I think I know what you are seeing.

I was unable to let out the transverse dart, so had to cut off the upper fronts and add pieces.  You are seeing this seam, which won't be there on a real shirt.

The front balance may be a little shorter because of the effect of the dart.  I will let out 3/8" on the upper front and mark both the shoulder seam and front dart seam.

[jruley]

Here with 3/8" more length in front.  The black lines mark the old shoulder seam, and the new front yoke seam:

[peterle]

I dontīwant to be picky, but the balance isnīt ok yet. The front is too short. (did you eventually make the back balance longer with the new yoke?)

When you attach a piece of fabric, itīs wise to follow the grain with the new piece.
 Is there a reason the right shoulder line is longer than the left? Or does it just seem so on the pic?

[jruley]

I dontīwant to be picky, but the balance isnīt ok yet. The front is too short. (did you eventually make the back balance longer with the new yoke?)

No, you're right.  I only added length to the front of scye, without changing the side seams.  This has pushed the shoulder seam back from where it belongs.  To fix the balance I need to drop the front relative to the back.

Is there a reason the right shoulder line is longer than the left? Or does it just seem so on the pic?

It's not on purpose, so will have to check.

[jruley]

Here the front was dropped 3/8" on the side seams of the back.  Chest and waist lines are now horizontal on the left.  On the right, not so much.

Maybe lepus' point (post #240) is valid and the toile has gone out of shape after all the sleeve work.  Also, I did not pre-shrink the muslin before cutting the pieces out, since I was not expecting this many changes.

The right shoulder line (old seam line) is indeed longer than the left, about 1/4"  Not sure how that crept in.

I'm wondering if this toile is no longer trustworthy, and I should make a new one, with more attention to fabric care?

[peterle]

First:  Ironing the toile following the grain and cross grain will restore the original form if distorted. Preshrinking is not necessary, you wonīt wash the toile, and the steam iron hardly will  shrink the heavy cotton. you can check the distortion by laying on the paper pattern pieces.

Here the front was dropped 3/8" on the side seams of the back.  Chest and waist lines are now horizontal on the left.  On the right, not so much.

Dropping the front makes the front  balance shorter relatively to the back, not longer. Where did you add length in post 256?

Just to make it clear:
when I say front balance, I mean the vertical distance between the front chest line and the  crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neckhole.
When I say back balance I mean the vertical distance between the back chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neck hole.

Maybe your back balance is longer than before because you mixed up sewing line and sewing allowance line? please compare this measurement in toile and pattern.

[jruley]

First:  Ironing the toile following the grain and cross grain will restore the original form if distorted. Preshrinking is not necessary, you wonīt wash the toile, and the steam iron hardly will  shrink the heavy cotton. you can check the distortion by laying on the paper pattern pieces.

Maybe you have better material to work with than me; the cheap muslin I have is quite thin.

I took the toile apart and pressed it with a steam iron.  Comparing the pattern pieces there is a little distortion around the neck and arm holes of the fronts, but the back has been skewed significantly:





So this one goes in the trash.

[jruley]

Dropping the front makes the front  balance shorter relatively to the back, not longer. Where did you add length in post 256?

Just to make it clear:
when I say front balance, I mean the vertical distance between the front chest line and the  crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neckhole.
When I say back balance I mean the vertical distance between the back chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neck hole.

When I added length, I sewed the yoke on 3/8" higher on the fronts.  This effectively added 3/8" to the front balance.

When I dropped the front 3/8", you are correct, this essentially removed the length I had just added.  The only remaining effect (other than deeper armholes in front) was to drop the front of the neck 3/8".

Maybe your back balance is longer than before because you mixed up sewing line and sewing allowance line? please compare this measurement in toile and pattern.

The new yoke was sewn in the same position as the old one, so this is not the problem.

[jruley]

Here is a new toile, fabric pre-shrunk this time.  Same pattern as post #253, with shoulder lengths equalized.  The back hangs much better now, and it seems to be back in balance:

[jruley]

Unless someone thinks changes are needed to the body fit, I think this is a good place to end this thread.  The goal of a sloper that fits the body has been pretty much achieved.   

What I would like to do now is alter the sloper to make a "torso line" fitted shirt.  Something like post #12 of this thread:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4397&hl=%2Btorso+%2Bline#entry46231

Since this is no longer a "sloper" per se, I will open a new thread when I am ready to start.

The sleeve from post #241 will probably make a good starting point.  However, I expect there will be no such thing as a "universal" sleeve draft.  They will all require tweaking based on the shape of the body, so it makes sense to continue that discussion in the new thread.

Thanks again to all those who contributed!

[peterle]

Yes, this looks much better.

Meanwhile I have looked on your arms a little closer. The right arm is the one with the some issues, so I would like you to continue with the sleeve on the left side. (Your right elbow goes backwards and outwards , your left doesn t).

[jruley]

Meanwhile I have looked on your arms a little closer. The right arm is the one with the some issues, so I would like you to continue with the sleeve on the left side. (Your right elbow goes backwards and outwards , your left doesn t).

We can continue the sleeves with the new thread:

http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=316.0

But first I want to get the new body right.

[jruley]

Where the waistline exactly is, is insignificant until waist shaping is introduced, as the sloper describes just a straight tube.

This is absurd. And it probably speaks of the failure of drafting in this way. Knowing the waistline height is important for proportioning the garment pattern. Unless one is drafting a collection of potato sacks. For a fitted garment the back waist can be taken to the body contour anyway (or a depression measure taken if that sort of fit is required). There are two other books: How to Draft Patterns by Donald McCunn, and the Winifred Aldrich book, both which follow the similar creation of  a standard block to be spun out into other patterns. Both of them consider waist locations throughout.

It's no wonder people are walking around dazed in circles wondering why drafting and fitting is 'too hard'. It's falsely made to look overly-hard by overblown nonsense. You see this a lot in those post-1900 drafting books where academically frustrated authors dress up fairly simple ideas as advanced trigonometry.

It seems to me there is not much merit in carving a toothpick out of a two-ton block of oak, which is the sort of methodology this particular 'sloper' rendered into other garments seems to want to pursue.

I have to agree with lepus here.  Since the side seams of the sloper are straight, moving the marked "waist" line up or down will not change the fit one iota.  So long as the seams are straight, this line only serves as an indication of balance.

Once waist shaping begins, of course the natural waist must be located.  There is certainly no harm in locating it from the beginning, and I probably should have done a better job of tracking it as the garment went through alterations for balance.  However, the resulting fit is the same as long as the seams are straight.