Help needed…Regency/ Napoleonic period collar pattern cutting

[Johnnyincubbias]

I have a few questions for the more knowledgeable and seasoned professionals with regard to pattern cutting in particular. 
Firstly, with regard to the regency/ Napoleonic period collars, I was wondering if there are any methods, blocks or pattern cutting diagrams available to cut this style of collar pattern?
How can a two part collar pattern be drafted as a single one and still keep its style? Is there a way to determine the correct shape of a garment particularly a collar stand and bodice neckline from photographs of a finished garment, and what's the best method to do this with some accuracy?

Is there a reason why different stands collars are shaped differently along the neckline? For instance, some stand collars are shaped downwards from the shoulder point to the c.f, while others are curved upwards from the same points, ie: mandarin collar, yet still others are shaped curving upwards from shoulder to c.f but are then con-caved from shoulder point to c.b either night than the baseline or squared at the baseline ie: shirt stand collars.
how does the different shape of the neckline in collars affect the end style of the design your looking to achieve?

Any clearer understanding would be appreciated.

[Gerry]

I've never made one, but have always liked those late 1960s, Regency-inspired jackets which featured similar collars.

Not really something you'd do as a single piece. No point because the lapel and collar are (almost?) totally separate. I'd say it's basically a draft for an elongated collar stand that folds over (look at shirt drafts?), and the lapel simply folds over.

Try a collar and lapel draft with some scraps of fabric? You could probably drape the collar if you wanted it to fold over in one piece.

As implied, I have no real experience but hopefully this reply will help get the ball rolling for this thread.

[Steelmillal]

Jason Maclochlainn would be the one to ask for the era but hasn't been on for a while. Go to the link below and read everything you can on collars. Some of the buttons sometimes work. You may find your answer..
https://web.archive.org/web/20100214022928/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showforum=4

Steamrolling thru I found this:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091116005708/http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=413

..so just podge thru and you may find "it", or close to your answer.

[TTailor]

I have made a lot of them.
I know that references of the era show them as one piece collars, but I have always made them in two pieces. This allows the stand to be interfaced with a more stable and rigid support and the fall to be shaped and interfaced however you wish.
I cover the outside of the stand with the coat fabric and the inside with lining or Silesia. There is a fair bit of hand sewing as I usually attach the collar to the coat by hand, and finish the stand lining by hand.

If you think about making it as a one piece collar (cut on the bias so you could shape it), you would need to stabilize the edge where the collar turns over. The stand needs to be stable in shape and the fall needs to be stretched.
You have to take into account that the collar felt/ melton will be visible, and you will have to cover the collar in fashion fabric after the shaping is achieved.

Neckline shape and finished collar design determine the pattern shaping.
The necklines for a shirt collar as opposed to a coat collar are quite different.

The shape of the human neck has to be accommodated. The closer the fit to the body, like a shirt collar the more shaped the pattern needs to be. So that is why the shirt stand collar is shaped that way.

A military tunic stand collar -which is close fitting and rigid- needs a specifically shaped neckline. The collar is larger at the neckline than along the top edge. The top edge is reduced in specific areas, not equally all around the collar, otherwise it would hit the back of the neck and stand away too much at the front.

For a ladies blouse with a mandarin collar, the neckline may be cut wider and deeper and the collar could be shaped more like you describe.

For tailored jackets and coats, with the under collar cut on the bias, the collar shape is something that can be changed with controlling certain areas of the collar with stitching and stretching the fabric in other areas with heat and moisture.

I think there is a lot of basic information available in most pattern drafting books to illustrate the different effects.
Determining the correct shape of the patterns by  interpreting the design as a flat pattern is something that comes with practice.
Here's an old blog post showing an 18th C collar on a coat I cut.
https://atailormadeit.blogspot.com/2010/06/18th-century-period-coats.html
https://atailormadeit.blogspot.com/2010/07/another-coat-more-trim.html

[Johnnyincubbias]

I thank you for the help. It's still a little confusing to say the least. Usually I sew soft leather bags and things from a wide range of leathers, my specialty is kangaroo hide due to its strength, but I love drafting patterns  and trying to figure out "how they did it", which is why I am interested in learning the concept of things.
For instance, I recently had the privilege of getting up close, but not touching, some of the suits made for Elvis in the 70's. The collar is high and sort of curving toward the neck at the roll of the front edge. It appears the stand height is constant from front edge to centre back, but there are no known images of the collars laying flat out to see if this is actually true. My question is, "to answer my mind's curiosity on how they did it", the roll line appears to curve downward slightly at the front edge, reducing the fronts width and making things go kinda Cakka cakka.
I want to achieve the same effect on a coat I am in the process of cutting, only when I curve the pattern neckline at front edge downwards to keep the same height of the stand constant, it don't give the same appearance  when viewed  form the front looking into the neck side of the collar. From there on the original suits, the front neck appears to curve up and out from the neck giving a nice roll in line with what would have been a rever roll line.
I don't know if the back neckline is above the baseline to the shoulder, and curved like a shirt collar without button stand at front, or if it does point downwards from back to front. When I cut one this way, the front neckline doesn't curve upwards at cf like the original, but rather curves toward the center front, and downwards along the body. I think a pic of the original would help to understand what I mean here.
I figure the shape of the stand at c.b when attached to the back neckline pulls the front edge upwards and somewhat higher at front neck, but the curvature of the stand on the neckline with a straight mandarin style stand  don't sit like the photo. It's like there is more shaping somewhere on the neckline of the stand, which keeps it looser on the neck, but at the same time gives this nice curvature pulling out away from the neck.

Unfortunately the original cutter for this suit is now deceased, and with him all his experience and learning. Nothing so far I have tested, seems to get the same desired effect as this, which is straining my mind thinking how it was shaped.

[Steelmillal]

from a wide range of leathers, my specialty is kangaroo hide due to its strength, ]

Not to hijack, but can one still get veg tanned K-leather? Last fellow I emailed lost his supply as the tannery shut down, but that was early lockdown.

[Johnnyincubbias]

To answer your question. Absolutely you can still purchase veg tanned k leather. Large suppliers in Australia sell it in a variety of colors. Depending on the state you reside. Melbourne has a large company Leffler's which sell it as does Queenslands Packers Direct, who produce mainly k leather.  Hope this helps

[Steelmillal]

...Leffler's which sell it as does Queenslands Packers Direct, who produce mainly k leather.  Hope this helps

Yes it does, thank you. I need a steady 1mm source.




I've attached two photos for imaginative ideas and thoughts. My study is almost exclusively women's applications. I have some leather collar drafts from the 30s, but will have to look what would be close to an Elvis collar.

[Johnnyincubbias]

I appreciate the assist with this style of collar draft. I believe it is more used for womens garments, however bill belew used them on his creations for elvis. I believe a tailor named Ciro Romano cut the patterns for the suits, and those that replicated those today, can't achieve the same effects the originals had. I believe the same style outfits with collars were made for osmonds brothers too. I wonder if there is some way to work out the shape of the collars neckline from an image of how it sits?
Funny the simplest of things are always the hardest to figure out.

For the leather you are interested in, packers direct; ie packers leather, is mostly the best by far. Their quality is top notch, and they often have end runs for excellent prices. Their web address is https://packerdirect.com.au/

[peterle]

I think it's hard to achieve this look in a coat, because a coat has to close at Cf. I'm pretty sure, the Elvis jacket doesn't close at Cf, the front edge is cut out, thus the neckline and collar are shorter.

[TTailor]

Have a look at this website. They’re on instagram as well, lots of photos and a connection to the original maker of the suits.
https://b-k-enterprises.com/

[Tikiguayo]

Late to the party here, I recently made a regency coat for The Bridgerton Ball. The only way I was able to get the correct shape was making it a 2 piece collar.