Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Quote from: Greger on May 01, 2025, 02:56:37 PMIn Sweden if you turned 6 years old they would say we don't know you. 6 is too old to start learning. And no machines. The world is ever changing.

C'mon, Greger - what year was that?

You might find this interesting:

https://www.keikari.com/english/interview-with-frederik-andersen-from-a-w-bauer/

Turns out A W Bauer is in Sweden, and goes back a long time.

And Frederik DID learn to sew at age 6 - but ironically enough, it was on his mother's machine.

Quote from: jruley on May 01, 2025, 09:21:27 PM

Quote from: Greger on May 01, 2025, 02:56:37 PMIn Sweden if you turned 6 years old they would say we don't know you. 6 is too old to start learning. And no machines. The world is ever changing.

C'mon, Greger - what year was that?

You might find this interesting:

https://www.keikari.com/english/interview-with-frederik-andersen-from-a-w-bauer/

Turns out A W Bauer is in Sweden, and goes back a long time.

And Frederik DID learn to sew at age 6 - but ironically enough, it was on his mother's machine.

I learned sewing at age 7... Linings on a Pfaff 134 or 136; it was on a saturday afternoon, mornings I was at school back then... Few weeks later learned to "pull in" sleevecrowns and "knot them off" by hand. Waddings and felts were too small for the cutting table and all handcut by avid ladies those days...

Cheers, Hendrick

1920s is when various groups of tailors started using sewing machines. Grandfather had become a farmer in Canada by then, because he thought he could earn more money.
The group in Sweden, not even sure it is around anymore.
Hostek was really angry and hurt because the American group became mtm. They could have added mtm as another branch. One of the organization leader 10-20 years ago has mtm business and mocked the history of fine tailoring and shirt making.
The guy who owns Bauer now is not old school. No doubt he learned some. I think the old guys were rejecting him because of his age. Too old. He is lucky that they changed their mind. They mentioned the trade was dieing, what year is this? 1970s? 1980? Why weren't there some younger apprentices? In the US there are real tailors who closed up shop because the lack of customers. Some tailors went to mtm and alterations. The boy I went to school with, when he was 11, late 1960s, an old semi retired tailor, a tiny little house, so the pattern would be drawn out bit by bit on the cloth, he certainly made a large variety of clothes. Another young man had a special coat made from an old tailor. It might have been the same tailor. But I think the other had died by then. That was an interesting story. It was probably the same tailor his parents went to. The boys back then didn't want their parents to know what their little group was about. So this tailor asked him many tricky questions trying to get the teen to "spill the beans". Every detail of the coat has to be cut a certain way to represent this teen group meaning. I had read the Hobbit books. The questioning and answers were like when the hobbit was taking the ring back and that little creature with all his trick questions to get hold of the ring. The teen never got what he wanted. The tailor made him an interesting coat. The tailor told him about what other teens had him make. Each generation has its own unique details. Armholes are cut different. Waist, chest, collars, etc. Tailors who only produce like Mass-produced kinda bore me. They can be very good tailors. Some have lots of that work and it pays good money. I understand that. I'm also a painter. What painter paints the same painting over and over? I like small town tailors because they have to be open minded to stay in business. Theater and ballet and movie tailors make a huge variety of clothes. The imagination never ends.
I think England had a cut off age of 19 for awhile. Read that perhaps more than once. Other countries had different ages depending where you lived. Now most will take any age.
One of my cousins in Europe moved out of his parents house as soon as he could because he disliked the demanding picky customers. He might be doing this trade again, but he is probably retired.
Anyway, it is an interesting world of art.

Just a 'follow up' image.
Charlie and Shirley in front of blossoming spring wisteria in 2020 with their rescue dog Suzie.
Apparently the Last Photo with his partner of 59 years before his passing.

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Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:37:18 PM1920s is when various groups of tailors started using sewing machines.

For those interested in the history of the sewing machine, here is the
International Sewing Machine Collectors' Society website:

https://ismacs.net/index.html

A French tailor named Thimmonier actually had a production line making army uniforms set up in the 1830's, using primitive wooden-framed machines.  To be fair the operation didn't last long.  The local hand tailors rioted, and wooden machines burn very well.

Practical lockstitch machines became available through the decade of the 1850's.  Larger, heavier built models intended for industrial use came out in parallel with the home models.  Singer in particular built larger machines, since their basic design used gears and cross shafts  which could easily be lengthened.

Original Civil War uniforms (1861-65) are on display in many national parks and battlefield museums.  Look closely and you'll find machine topstitching.  Obviously the clothing contractors had machines.  Men's civilian clothing of the era is scarcer, but you can also find machine stitching; I've personally seen machine quilted chest padding in several frock and dress coats.

I think it's probably true that visible stitching of any kind was looked down on as a sign of cheaper quality work, but that doesn't mean machines didn't have their place.

Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:37:18 PMTailors who only produce like Mass-produced kinda bore me. They can be very good tailors. Some have lots of that work and it pays good money. I understand that. I'm also a painter. What painter paints the same painting over and over? I like small town tailors because they have to be open minded to stay in business. Theater and ballet and movie tailors make a huge variety of clothes. The imagination never ends.

If you are purely an artist, then you can paint whatever you wish.  If you are an artist in business, then you have to paint things other people want to buy, or you will starve.  Same thing with a tailor.  If your customers value conformity over self-expression you may very well make the same thing over and over.  Face it - you're making uniforms, although the rules may not be as explicit as military regulations.  Your work is distinguished by its precision, not its originality.

I agree that theater, ballet and movie work is probably a better fit for an artistic mind than cranking out endless quantities of the "house style".

Quote from: jruley on May 02, 2025, 11:40:59 PM

Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:37:18 PMTailors who only produce like Mass-produced kinda bore me. They can be very good tailors. Some have lots of that work and it pays good money. I understand that. I'm also a painter. What painter paints the same painting over and over? I like small town tailors because they have to be open minded to stay in business. Theater and ballet and movie tailors make a huge variety of clothes. The imagination never ends.

If you are purely an artist, then you can paint whatever you wish.  If you are an artist in business, then you have to paint things other people want to buy, or you will starve.  Same thing with a tailor.  If your customers value conformity over self-expression you may very well make the same thing over and over.  Face it - you're making uniforms, although the rules may not be as explicit as military regulations.  Your work is distinguished by its precision, not its originality.

I agree that theater, ballet and movie work is probably a better fit for an artistic mind than cranking out endless quantities of the "house style".

Note that every decent level ready to wear co. in the mens' business has a least a "tailor in the house", Schnittmacher in German... These guys are extremely good at developing cuts within the right "Zeitgeist". Now I was thinking of an aunt of mine, a painter who was commisoned for literally hundreds of portraits. They were all portraits sure, but always representing different characters' facial features and expression. I suppose clothing can give the wearer authority but also the opposite... I think that in costume design there is far more room for expression but also there, authority of the character is at play at stage. No matter if it's comedy, tragedy or satire...

 

Cheers, Hendrick

Wait, wait, wait'a.. wh.. ..Wait.

Who's round is it?



Was still there at screenshot data..

Uniform is a varied word, Military is different than IBM blue and that is somewhat different than general business suit.
The business suit is different from a fashion suit, the fashion suit is not a business suit at all.
How many people born in the sixties and later know any of this? They think coat and trousers cut from the same sports cloth is a suit and a choir could have a suit more with military rules and then there is dressage uniform, among other kinds.
Mass-production doesn't have fit that bespoke would.
Mass-production was using sewing machines 100 years before bespoke, doesn't mean that there no bespoke using machines.
My understanding is most bespoke groups refused to allow them. If you don't want to be an outcast a thimbled finger for every stitch for bespoke.
Mass-production is very different.
Bespoke talent varies hugely, too.

Quote from: Steelmillal on May 05, 2025, 04:13:28 AMWait, wait, wait'a.. wh.. ..Wait.

Who's round is it?



Was still there at screenshot data..

Hey that's not far at all from me.

Quote from: Greger on May 05, 2025, 01:04:36 PMUniform is a varied word, Military is different than IBM blue and that is somewhat different than general business suit.
The business suit is different from a fashion suit, the fashion suit is not a business suit at all.

How many people born in the sixties and later know any of this? (emphasis added)

So how is it relevant - if you are making for people under age 65?

When your grandfather was working in the early 20th century, did he try to force his customers to follow 1850's and 1860's rules of dress?

So why should a tailor working in 2025 try to force customers to follow the conventions of the 1950's and 1960's?

Is the tailor supposed to be a fashion policeman?

Quote from: Greger on May 05, 2025, 01:04:36 PMUniform is a varied word, Military is different than IBM blue and that is somewhat different than general business suit.
The business suit is different from a fashion suit, the fashion suit is not a business suit at all.
How many people born in the sixties and later know any of this? They think coat and trousers cut from the same sports cloth is a suit and a choir could have a suit more with military rules and then there is dressage uniform, among other kinds.
Mass-production doesn't have fit that bespoke would.
Mass-production was using sewing machines 100 years before bespoke, doesn't mean that there no bespoke using machines.
My understanding is most bespoke groups refused to allow them. If you don't want to be an outcast a thimbled finger for every stitch for bespoke.
Mass-production is very different.
Bespoke talent varies hugely, too.

Exactly... That is why most fashion suits are made ready to wear and have "added seasonal fashion content" in them, just try to immagine a Saville Row suit on a Gucci, or worse Balenciaga catwalk for that matter. Oppositly, a business suit is discreet and unobtrusive in nature and fit and more "style statement" than "fashion statement". An RTW suit can never fit like a bespoke suit, but it can easily be a little crazier. Because RTW is machined, the "make" of it is much more anonimous however crazy the styling may be. In a bespoke suit, you immediatly see the hand of the maker as well as the typical features of the cut. Clearly, the styling of a bespoke suit is subtle and discreet and it is logic only that the tailor pursues a degree of timelesness at the pricepoint in question! So no, the tailor is no member of the "design polizei" but he represents a craft and it is in his own interest to protect it. 

Cheerio, Hendrick

Don't take me too seriously, I'm mostly pulling Greger's chain  .

We've been presented with two different visions of "bespoke".  One is the unique artistic piece:

Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:37:18 PMAnother young man had a special coat made from an old tailor. It might have been the same tailor. But I think the other had died by then. That was an interesting story. It was probably the same tailor his parents went to. The boys back then didn't want their parents to know what their little group was about. So this tailor asked him many tricky questions trying to get the teen to "spill the beans". Every detail of the coat has to be cut a certain way to represent this teen group meaning. I had read the Hobbit books. The questioning and answers were like when the hobbit was taking the ring back and that little creature with all his trick questions to get hold of the ring. The teen never got what he wanted. The tailor made him an interesting coat. The tailor told him about what other teens had him make. Each generation has its own unique details. Armholes are cut different. Waist, chest, collars, etc.

while the other is traditional and conservative:

Quote from: Hendrick on Today at 02:12:29 AMClearly, the styling of a bespoke suit is subtle and discreet and it is logic only that the tailor pursues a degree of timelesness at the pricepoint in question!

Quote from: jruley on Today at 03:08:34 AMDon't take me too seriously, I'm mostly pulling Greger's chain  .

We've been presented with two different visions of "bespoke".  One is the unique artistic piece:

Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:37:18 PMAnother young man had a special coat made from an old tailor. It might have been the same tailor. But I think the other had died by then. That was an interesting story. It was probably the same tailor his parents went to. The boys back then didn't want their parents to know what their little group was about. So this tailor asked him many tricky questions trying to get the teen to "spill the beans". Every detail of the coat has to be cut a certain way to represent this teen group meaning. I had read the Hobbit books. The questioning and answers were like when the hobbit was taking the ring back and that little creature with all his trick questions to get hold of the ring. The teen never got what he wanted. The tailor made him an interesting coat. The tailor told him about what other teens had him make. Each generation has its own unique details. Armholes are cut different. Waist, chest, collars, etc.

while the other is traditional and conservative:

Quote from: Hendrick on Today at 02:12:29 AMClearly, the styling of a bespoke suit is subtle and discreet and it is logic only that the tailor pursues a degree of timelesness at the pricepoint in question!

Correct! But note that between the times "mods" and before that "teddy boys" went to tailors to have a cool outfit made and these days a revolution took place in the RTW market that has developed into a whopping 150 Bn. market in the luxury segment alone!

That is without the "normal stuff"... Do not underestimate the marketing power of the players in that field and the visual influence on youngsters by means of influencers, celebreties and so on. Maybe there is an overkill effect that may explain the success of houses like Hermes, Chanel and Cuccinelli lately versus the decline of the revamped companies held by the likes of LVMH that are currently in decline and looking for new "rockstar designers" constantly. I personally think that there is a bit of fashion fatigue, save for maybe the real cheap stuff sold to teenagers. Could be that the hunger for style is greater than the hunger for fashion, at least for the real spenders. Maybe the system of "fast moving consumer goods" is not the right way for luxury brands; it is too similar to fast fashion brands. And a visit to the tailor may just be the perfect escape from "planet fashion". There is also a socio-economic factor; after WWII fashion was scarce, now it is omnipresent and dead-cheap. Style however, is a different story. As an example the Saint Laurent see-through blouse is now nearly sixty years old, only to indicate that creativity and complexity ar not the same... We took multiple hurdles in consuming over the decades, 50's was about cars, housing and decoration, 60's about travel and fashion for the masses, 70's "freedom", sex and peace and so on. So maybe we squeezed it a bit too hard and we are nearing the end of a certain consumption cycle.  I keep hearing and reading all sorts of philosophies about fashion, but all I see are people in black spandex and trainers everywhere... 


Cheerio, Hendrick

Well Jim, grandpa came from a small community in a small country in Europe. Really, not even a town. He came to America and convinced them how to dress properly. Even in the casket. After all, you don't want to stand before God on your judgment day wearing clothes that go to hell! He certainly forced everyone to dress correctly. When he died everything went pot. Just look at the hippies.

Putting aside humor, king's, czars, emperors, duke's, lords, top brass, etc set the standards and most everyone else tries to copy as best they can until the hippie generation.
As a boy listening to men,  my parents generation, being told to go home and change into a suit of style out of the fashion suit or they are fired. Later they were told that even after hours they would be fired wearing any fashion at all. The company reputation was at stake. People climbing the corporate
ladder paid attention. There are still companies in America that have some rules for clothes.

SR has a representation of style because of the clientel it brings in. Show clothes are a bit different.

In the US there were some tailors that only made style and others that made both style and fashions. Today's fashions I can't imagine any tailor even looking at them for ones sanity sake!