Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Interesting article, thanks for posting it!

My memories of the 70's and 80's are considerably different.  I grew up in a smaller city than Birmingham (`70,000 population), with fewer options for clothing.  If you wanted a suit you went to Sears or Penney's, or maybe Rike's if you wanted something a little nicer.  There were a couple of local clothiers as well but similar quality.  The stores had alteration tailors who would do simple things like hemming the trousers, maybe take in or let out the waist.  That was about it AFAIK.  If there was a "real", "bespoke", "custom", "personal", or even a made-to-measure tailor in town they kept a low profile.  To be fair I wasn't fussy about fit or very style conscious in those days.

Everybody - or at least the Everybodys I knew - bought and wore what the stores had in stock.  I remember my Dad complaining to a salesman about trousers being cut tighter in the knee than he liked.  The response was "that's what they're wearing these days."  I remember when "leisure suits" came into the stores - and right back out again about 6 months later.  Then the 80's came along, suddenly pleated pants were back and everybody wanted a pair of red elastic suspenders.

And I don't think my experience is that unusual.  Maybe British men still went to tailors, but Americans have been buying most of their clothes from stores since the 50's.  That's the 1850's, not the 1950's.  "Ready to wear" took off in a big way here as soon as steam propulsion made it more efficient to concentrate clothing production in a few large cities.  Now the idea has been extended to the global market.

Good tailoring, like fine wine or a good meal, is for those who appreciate it.  Most people don't.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I doubt the word bespoke started on Saville Row. It probably started way before Saville Row existed. Been spoken for is still used. Castle owners would have been far better educated with words and grammar. Made to measure didn't exist until the 1920. Levi started Mass-produced. There were people sewing clothes before tailors. Shirt makers, and other garments continued after tailors. Tailors made nicer coats. Fashions are less than five years of popular wear. Styles are longer. If styles were shorter length of time there wouldn't be enough people that can afford them and tailors need enough customers.
20 years ago some tailors on SR laughed at Anderson and Shepard because it doesn't have near the stitches as the others. If you read tailor and cutter they said the same thing earlier. There certainly are snobby tailors. Clothes, as other things, is sometimes about prestige. It is like wearing Cool clothes, shoes, whatever. The world is very diverse now.

Quote from: jruley on April 25, 2025, 10:44:09 AMMaybe British men still went to tailors, but Americans have been buying most of their clothes from stores since the 50's.  That's the 1850's, not the 1950's.  "Ready to wear" took off in a big way here as soon as steam propulsion made it more efficient to concentrate clothing production in a few large cities.  Now the idea has been extended to the global market.

It was unusual for anyone to use a tailor in the early 1980s, let alone teenagers. My brother and I could afford it because we'd worked in Germany for a short while, earning a ton of cash all tax and rent free. A well known, British TV comedy-drama (Auf Wiedersehen Pet) highlighted this growing trend at the time.

Highstreet tailors started to go into decline in the early 1970s. Prior to that, it was common to buy 'made-to-measure'; though in those days the term wasn't as defined as it is now. In the larger, national gents' outfitters (where many bought their suits), blocks were used and alterations (based on the measurements taken) were made when striking the cloth. A limited choice of options was given, in terms of style, when ordering the jacket/suit, but everything was traditionally put together. Usually in large workshops/factories.

As previously mentioned, with high-street tailors it was taken as read that the term 'made-to-measure' meant 'made to fit' (what we'd now call 'bespoke'). A pattern was cut utilising a customer's individual measurements and the garment made to their instructions/taste. The amount of fittings and handwork varied according to how much you were willing to pay. Rents were cheaper, wages lower, and therefore tailoring was more affordable. Still expensive, but certainly within reach of many who wanted something special. In the 1960s, the Mod generation frequently used tailors; though also in that decade ready-to-wear and fast-fashion took over, courtesy of Carnaby Street, and a whole generation started to be weaned off the good stuff.

QuoteGood tailoring, like fine wine or a good meal, is for those who appreciate it.  Most people don't.  I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I agree. The current generation seem to have no interest in fashion, let alone tailoring; and many Hollywood stars seem content to wear designer-label stuff that often doesn't quite fit. Few follow the example of their metaphorical forebears, who regularly wore tailored suits.

To address Greger's point, I also doubt that Savile Row invented the term bespoke, because tailoring came to the Row, it didn't start there. However, I'm also pretty sure that the Row has pushed the term in recent decades merely as a marketing ploy, because I don't remember any tailor using it in the 70s/80s.

Quote from: Greger on April 25, 2025, 12:59:25 PMMade to measure didn't exist until the 1920. Levi started Mass-produced.

For the history buffs among us, here are two great places to visit:


https://www.1856.com/


https://www.fws.gov/refuge/desoto/steamboat-bertrand


Both of these house the remains of steamboats which sank in the Missouri River, one in 1856, the other in 1865.  The river changed course over time and boat boats were excavated in the 20th century.  For those interested in what was moving on the rivers in those days, they are time capsules.

Both boats contained large quantities of men's clothing, much of it well preserved under the mud (though cotton shirts had mostly rotted).  In addition to shirts, hats, shoes, boots and other accessories there were large numbers of coats and trousers.  No, these didn't belong to the crew and passengers, they were stock on the way to dry goods stores.  This is before Levi Strauss.  He may have popularized mass produced clothing, but he didn't invent it.

The US Army in 1861 had only about 15,000 officers and men.  Most were clothed by arsenals on the East Coast, using handworkers in an effort to provide welfare for soldiers' widows and orphans.  By the end of the Civil War in 1865 something like two million men had served in uniform.  The arsenal system was completely overwhelmed, and the Quartermaster Department had to contract for large quantities of clothing.  Who were the contractors?  Many were clothiers who had lost their Southern markets due to the blockade.  Clothing production had almost disappeared in the South before the war, since it was cheaper to have clothing made in the New York area using immigrant labor.

Best available evidence is the Army issued uniforms in four sizes, according to a fixed "tariff" or proportion of sizes per bale of 100 coats, trousers, etc.  These were cut to standard measurements, although no original patterns are known to survive.  This would not have been possible if tailors were incapable of making made-to-measure and ready to wear clothing.

Some famous American clothiers got their start in the ready to wear business.  Brooks Brothers, I believe, started as a manufacturer of cheap sailors' "slops" in the 1830's.

MTM and RTW go back a lot further than some may want to think...

Maybe Levi was the first on the west coast. Or maybe the first where each employee did one and passed it to the next etc. Ford was the first assembly line auto maker.

The author Tom Wolfe didn't know anything about tailored clothes. As a beginning author one of his heroes looked at his coat sleeve and reacted unfavorably. No hand made button holes. He must have done some research to find out what that was about. Later that is all he wore for those kinds of coats. Around here as a child it seems everyone knew about tailors. Obviously there were areas where people didn't know throughout the US. And from area to area it depended upon what the tailors would make. Some won't touch the lower classes. If you have too many customers you don't have time to make cheaper clothes, unless you have apprentices.

Bespoke is at least two fittings until a good pattern is established. At least one thereafter, because cloth is different.

Gerry,
I to believe the best tailors. Genius and expert skill, doesn't only come from SR. Claiming that SR are the best tailors is another marketing ploy. After all the Germans think they are better. Nowadays there are few tailors around any country. In the past there were thousands just in the US. Hostek said that he hired tailors from many different countries. Some were incredibly good. SR doesn't own everything. Wonder how much history they have forgotten. Because of the lack of tailors today, perhaps they now can accurately claim to be the best. In the past they couldn't because tailoring is an art. Artist are born anywhere. Different cultures have different art expectations.

Quote from: Greger on April 27, 2025, 04:55:00 PMGerry,
I to believe the best tailors. Genius and expert skill, doesn't only come from SR. Claiming that SR are the best tailors is another marketing ploy. After all the Germans think they are better. Nowadays there are few tailors around any country. In the past there were thousands just in the US. Hostek said that he hired tailors from many different countries. Some were incredibly good. SR doesn't own everything. Wonder how much history they have forgotten. Because of the lack of tailors today, perhaps they now can accurately claim to be the best. In the past they couldn't because tailoring is an art. Artist are born anywhere. Different cultures have different art expectations.

The workshops of the Row are, and always have been, a melting pot of nationalities. To claim that the style of the Row is uniquely English is, therefore, a little simplistic; especially bearing in mind that some of their most influential cutters, such as Scholte, weren't even British born.

Outside of London, there are still provincial tailor shops that offer the same standard of tailoring as the Row. Likewise around the globe. The only thing the Row can say with any certainty is that they produce some of the most expensive suits in the world. Having said that, I admire the tradition of the place and they do help to maintain a standard across tailoring.

Quote from: Gerry on April 27, 2025, 07:53:53 PM

Quote from: Greger on April 27, 2025, 04:55:00 PMGerry,
I to believe the best tailors. Genius and expert skill, doesn't only come from SR. Claiming that SR are the best tailors is another marketing ploy. After all the Germans think they are better. Nowadays there are few tailors around any country. In the past there were thousands just in the US. Hostek said that he hired tailors from many different countries. Some were incredibly good. SR doesn't own everything. Wonder how much history they have forgotten. Because of the lack of tailors today, perhaps they now can accurately claim to be the best. In the past they couldn't because tailoring is an art. Artist are born anywhere. Different cultures have different art expectations.

The workshops of the Row are, and always have been, a melting pot of nationalities. To claim that the style of the Row is uniquely English is, therefore, a little simplistic; especially bearing in mind that some of their most influential cutters, such as Scholte, weren't even British born.

Outside of London, there are still provincial tailor shops that offer the same standard of tailoring as the Row. Likewise around the globe. The only thing the Row can say with any certainty is that they produce some of the most expensive suits in the world. Having said that, I admire the tradition of the place and they do help to maintain a standard across tailoring.

In the end, Saville Row is also a fenomenal marketing springboard for tailoring in general. The concentration of houses present, with their different history, has sparked the interest of many also younger people in tailoring an maybe timeless dressing. That said, no they do not hold the technical ownership of the trade as such. But then again, with such a concentration of "names" on just over a square mile or so it's only logic that it is a manget for talent. My dad always said that the best of tailors and bootmakers came from the triangle Venice, Budapest, Vienna, just saying...

Cheerio, Hendrick

Quote from: Hendrick on April 28, 2025, 06:19:26 AMIn the end, Saville Row is also a fenomenal marketing springboard for tailoring in general. The concentration of houses present, with their different history, has sparked the interest of many also younger people in tailoring an maybe timeless dressing.

Absolutely, the high concentration of businesses along the Row means that standards have to be kept really high to remain competitive. If they cut corners customers will simply go to the shop next door.

The only thing that gets tiresome is that some establishments (not all, I hasten to add) think they're the only ones in the world creating decent suits. And some are a little disingenuous when claiming to use only natural materials. Really? What about the polyester thread, nylon banrol and other occasional plastics that creep into their work.

Quote from: Gerry on April 28, 2025, 08:20:29 PM

Quote from: Hendrick on April 28, 2025, 06:19:26 AMIn the end, Saville Row is also a fenomenal marketing springboard for tailoring in general. The concentration of houses present, with their different history, has sparked the interest of many also younger people in tailoring an maybe timeless dressing.

Absolutely, the high concentration of businesses along the Row means that standards have to be kept really high to remain competitive. If they cut corners customers will simply go to the shop next door.

The only thing that gets tiresome is that some establishments (not all, I hasten to add) think they're the only ones in the world creating decent suits. And some are a little disingenuous when claiming to use only natural materials. Really? What about the polyester thread, nylon banrol and other occasional plastics that creep into their work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMj4oy1zo6s

Quote from: Hendrick on April 28, 2025, 06:19:26 AMIn the end, Saville Row is also a fenomenal marketing springboard for tailoring in general.

And now the truth has been revealed that the Saville Row is a hotbed of espionage, saving the world from the ravages of disorder and destruction - as per the documentary Kingsman

DB draft posted on Frank Shattuck's Instaface if anyone looking for Kingsman inspiration. A pint of Guinness would 'suit' me today.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DIzKIQxJlY2/

Quote from: Steelmillal on April 30, 2025, 05:54:09 AMA pint of Guinness would 'suit' me today.

      

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 30, 2025, 09:49:28 AM

Quote from: Steelmillal on April 30, 2025, 05:54:09 AMA pint of Guinness would 'suit' me today.

      

I'm in; hot as hell here...

In Sweden if you turned 6 years old they would say we don't know you. 6 is too old to start learning. And no machines. The world is ever changing.