Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

What do you think is the best pattern making system for bespoke tailoring? I have seen that many of you cite the Müller y Sohn system but since it is German I don't know if it's the most suitable for making English or Italian tailoring.

Right now I know two pattern making systems (Martí and Camps), both Spanish, but I get the feeling that they are more for dressmaking and not so much for tailoring.

One thing that intrigues me is the seam allowances; The systems that I know do not include them, but I have not seen systems where they explain how much seam allowance to give in each part of the garment.
I don't know if it's silly, but I didn't realize this until I subscribed to Rory Duffy's videos and saw that each part of the pants had a different seam allowance.

Quote from: Matilda on January 21, 2025, 12:07:34 AMOne thing that intrigues me is the seam allowances; The systems that I know do not include them, but I have not seen systems where they explain how much seam allowance to give in each part of the garment.
I don't know if it's silly, but I didn't realize this until I subscribed to Rory Duffy's videos and saw that each part of the pants had a different seam allowance.

With bespoke trousers it's very common not to include seam allowances on the fronts/topside. All seams go on the back/underside. The end result is that the long seams are shifted forward by one seam allowance. In old cutting/drafting books, this was typically a quarter of an inch. Nowadays it's invariably 3/8ths. Why the increase? I'd say almost certainly on account of overlockers/sergers. In the past, seams were overcast by hand so could be kept skinny. Nowadays, it's all done my machine and the overlocking is typically 3/16ths (for a three thread overlock) or even a 1/4 inch (for the criminally insane). A 3/8ths seam gives enough of a margin between the overlocking and the seamline.

There are three advantages to bringing forward the seam. Firstly, inseam pockets are easier to access. 3/8ths might not sound like much, but it can really make a difference. Secondly, the natural bend of the knees means that with a '50:50 cut' knee, the seams can hang towards the back of the joint. Aesthetically, it looks better when they're brought forwards a little. Thirdly, the leg seems to hang better. Whether it's just an optical illusion, or a slight increase in the weight of the back cloth (as result of being wider), I don't know, but the top cloth appears to be pulled onto the leg.

Most bespoke systems, irrespective of the type of garment being made, include seam allowances in the draft. I don't always do this, because sometimes the seam allowance I choose will depend on the type of seam I'll be using. Or the type of cloth (a larger seam allowance if it frays). Though in all fairness, with patterns that include allowance, adjustments for seam width can be made on the cloth by simply shifting the pattern horizontally/vertically. Likewise patterns without allowance.

As for a system, just find one that makes sense to you. Or at the very least one that is easy to learn. You mentioned Rory Duffy. I don't use his drafting system, but it's as good as any. You can always modify it and incorporate bits of other systems as you come across them. Or include direct measurements in those areas where you find it more intuitive/accurate to do so. That's pretty much what I've done over the years, so I don't actually have one 'system': what I use is a composite of many methods.

No matter what system you settle for, learn it inside out and learn how to make adjustments for different types of 'figuration' (body type).

There are two (at least) distinct elements of garment design. the foundation of the bodice and the seat of the pants, and the other are the fashion points; the silhouett, collars, cuff styles length, corners, pockets etc

In the previous version of this forum, the idea of pursuing the older bodice styles was discouraged. It was encouraged to make a wonderful form following bodice and pants, and if you wanted to emulate an older style, that could be best done in the fashion points. Its probably a good idea.

A big push in drafting in the last century was from a very baggy look for jackets, and a blousy look for shirts. Similar might be said of trousers, but I haven't studied them as closely. In the early to mid century, to a very much more form fitting model in the last part of the 20th C into this century.

the German drafting- Mueller is really good at 3D, form fitting jacket and shirts, they have a modern look about them, I suspect their methods have 'inspired' a lot of commercial producers.

Older drafting methods tend to be more 2D envelopes.

In the jackets waist suppression through the side body is the defining feature of modern style. In the 1950's there were multiple complex darts.

In shirts, I havent figured it out, but the Mueller shirt bodice is extraordinary.

Of course you can use any method you like, but understanding the effect of the different styles is very smart.

Many of us make a historic style just to test it out. Then you certainly pick up the disadvantages.

I do want to play around with Robert Raehle's Unicut drafts, when I get more time. He was Swiss, he inspired the Modern Mueller system, I think.

G

Quote from: Gerry on January 21, 2025, 02:33:34 AMWith bespoke trousers it's very common not to include seam allowances on the fronts/topside. All seams go on the back/underside. The end result is that the long seams are shifted forward by one seam allowance. In old cutting/drafting books, this was typically a quarter of an inch. Nowadays it's invariably 3/8ths. Why the increase? I'd say almost certainly on account of overlockers/sergers. In the past, seams were overcast by hand so could be kept skinny. Nowadays, it's all done my machine and the overlocking is typically 3/16ths (for a three thread overlock) or even a 1/4 inch (for the criminally insane). A 3/8ths seam gives enough of a margin between the overlocking and the seamline.

Thank you for these thoughtful response.
I hadn't considered how the use of overlockers/sergers might influence seam width, nor the aesthetic and practical effects of shifting seams forward. It makes sense that the choice of seam allowance can also depend on the fabric and seam type, which is something I'll keep in mind. I'll start experimenting with the 3/8" standard you mentioned to see how it affects the balance and appearance of trousers.

Quote from: Gerry on January 21, 2025, 02:33:34 AMMost bespoke systems, irrespective of the type of garment being made, include seam allowances in the draft. I don't always do this, because sometimes the seam allowance I choose will depend on the type of seam I'll be using. Or the type of cloth (a larger seam allowance if it frays). Though in all fairness, with patterns that include allowance, adjustments for seam width can be made on the cloth by simply shifting the pattern horizontally/vertically. Likewise patterns without allowance.

At first glance, drafting without seam allowances seems like it could be easier for making pattern modifications later on, but honestly, I'm not sure if that's actually the case in practice.

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 21, 2025, 01:40:35 PMThere are two (at least) distinct elements of garment design. the foundation of the bodice and the seat of the pants, and the other are the fashion points; the silhouett, collars, cuff styles length, corners, pockets etc

I used to think that the system you choose for drafting would directly influence the style of the garment—not that it would dictate it entirely, but that certain systems might align better with specific aesthetics or construction methods.

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 21, 2025, 01:40:35 PMthe German drafting- Mueller is really good at 3D, form fitting jacket and shirts, they have a modern look about them, I suspect their methods have 'inspired' a lot of commercial producers.

Older drafting methods tend to be more 2D envelopes.

I hadn't heard before about the distinction between 2D and 3D drafting systems. At first glance, it seems like all systems produce similar results, so this is something completely new to me.

Do you think the Müller & Sohn books are worth the investment for someone learning tailoring? At 88€ per digital book, I want to make sure they're the right choice for my needs before committing haha

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Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 21, 2025, 01:40:35 PMthe German drafting- Mueller is really good at 3D, form fitting jacket and shirts, they have a modern look about them, I suspect their methods have 'inspired' a lot of commercial producers.

Older drafting methods tend to be more 2D envelopes.

I hadn't heard before about the distinction between 2D and 3D drafting systems. At first glance, it seems like all systems produce similar results, so this is something completely new to me.

Do you think the Müller & Sohn books are worth the investment for someone learning tailoring? At 88€ per digital book, I want to make sure they're the right choice for my needs before committing haha
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Trust me; they are a great investment! But note that every draft has a "time stamp", reflecting the period when they were constructed. Müller & Sohn's drafts reflect that as does any draft, save for maybe a frock coat or similar. That is why I think it may be important for you find a method that lets you construct a "carcass" from scratch, toile it  and learn to adapt it to your aesthetic preferences. It will help you to master the relation between body measurements and volume and ease. Note also that materials have changed vastly over the years. In the 6ties, as you were referring to, materials were much more dense and substantial than the "super 130's"and the like that are being used these days. I agree with Schneiderfrei that there is a firm distinction between the structure of the garment an the "optics" and detailing of it. But also that their drafts are 3dimensional and much more organic and in control of volume than most flat pattern systems. I have worked mainly with womenswear but I prefer starting from a pattern without allowances because it is easier to judge against a finished garment (not to mention the curvature of the stitchlines...), adapting and correcting them is easier without seam allowances too...

Cheers, Hendrick