Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Quote from: EvanTA on January 08, 2025, 01:15:59 AMThank you all for the tips, I'll fuss with it a bit more, my goal is to be cutting out the material on Thursday so I still have some time to fine tune. Wife is away this weekend so I'll have more time than usual to set aside and try and work on this next pair.

For a baste fitting, how far in the construction should I go you think? No pockets I imagine, but do I do a waistband and a zipper, more or less as I've done here for the toile? I'm fine with the extra work, I just worry about over-working the material, but then if I have to undo and rework stuff after I think I'm done then I'm REALLY over working the material. Not sure where people usually draw the line for a baste fitting.

With a waistband it really varies. Some firms just sew on a provisional waistband (sometimes elasticated!), because they just want to get up-and-running with a general assessment. Others will baste a partially constructed band on (no lining). Flies are often hand basted in place with a large backstitch.

Because you've done a toile, you could simply go ahead with a lot of the details. And that would be my approach (after all, what's the point of the toile if you repeat the same procedures on your cloth). That's not to say you won't encounter issues, though, because different cloths behave differently.

However, before you consider committing to cloth, IMO you really need to check what that gaping fly is doing, if anything, to the fit. A little time spent now could save you a lot of heartache later.

PS the elasticated waistband isn't as daft as it sounds. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about bands sitting where they want to sit; and everything hanging from the waistband. The advantage of elastic is that if cloth is being pushed down or pulled up, the baste is broken at those points then the material and/or band is simply adjusted. The elastic holds everything in place (maybe with the help of a pin or two) and the seamline's new position is marked.

I've never done it, but it makes sense. It's a very quick way of getting right the balance and rise. Can't remember which firm I saw doing this. Pretty sure they were on the Row, though (West End at any rate).

I had gone into this thinking I needed to do a baste fitting because the switch from toile to real material always felt so stark, but it may have actually been the case I was rushing through the toile fitting in the past.

I'll play with the fly a bit to make sure I'm not getting a gaping issue there and keep working a few other small parts until I'm pleased (raising the crotch, a little more carefully easing on the waistline, double check the waistline at the CB seam per peterle's advice).

What you're saying about the elastic waistband makes me wonder if I should make one specifically for toile fittings that I could reuse. The waistband wouldn't change much across pants, would be handy to have one done up I could attach as needed.

Quote from: EvanTA on January 08, 2025, 02:44:42 AMI had gone into this thinking I needed to do a baste fitting because the switch from toile to real material always felt so stark, but it may have actually been the case I was rushing through the toile fitting in the past.

I'll play with the fly a bit to make sure I'm not getting a gaping issue there and keep working a few other small parts until I'm pleased (raising the crotch, a little more carefully easing on the waistline, double check the waistline at the CB seam per peterle's advice).

Well done, that sounds like a sensible plan. Yes, by the sound of things you hadn't spent enough time on your toile when you committed to cloth.

QuoteWhat you're saying about the elastic waistband makes me wonder if I should make one specifically for toile fittings that I could reuse. The waistband wouldn't change much across pants, would be handy to have one done up I could attach as needed.

That's exactly what this company did. They just sewed on a couple of hooks and bars at the fronts of the elastic to secure it, and basted it in place. I think they doubled back the ends of the elastic, to give more support to the hooks and bars. Can't remember, but that's what I'd do. I'd probably sandwich a bit of interfacing in between the doubled back elastic too.

You wouldn't be able to have much of a cinch though. It would be murder trying to gather any quantity of cloth into a elastic waistband when basting (at least by hand). It would probably distort things in places too, which isn't going to help fitting evaluations. Probably why I've never tried it.

That said, I can't see it being a problem if the circumference of the waist a little higher up from the seamline is used.

Possibly posted elsewhere but I couldn't quickly find it, this video series on trouser ironwork seems useful to drop into this thread. Made by an active forum member, Thom Bennett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozy9iF54c08

Very helpful, along with the other video on shaping fabric posted here:
 
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,1569.0.html

Quote from: peterle on January 07, 2025, 10:43:43 PMJruley you can look on it this way:shifting the knee notches makes two alterations in one step. It adds length to the upper front and it adds length the lower back and shortens their counterparts. Both alterations sum up to the original (measured) side length. So there is no need for elongating one pattern part.

Thank you.  I don't think I explained it very well.
If I understand correctly, above the knee you ease (or "full") the front part onto the back.  This takes a little bit of length from the front.  If you don't stretch the back, its length isn't changed by this step.
Below the knee, you ease (full) the back onto the front.  This step shortens the back a little, but does not change the front length.
Yes both parts line up at the hem.  But if no stretching was done, they should each be a little shorter than before you started.  Correct?
It's only a trivial amount, maybe half a cm - but it would affect the amount you need to add for turn up at the hem.
Sorry for the digression, I shouldn't interfere with Evan's fitting.

Quote from: Gerry on January 08, 2025, 03:21:48 AMThat's exactly what this company did. They just sewed on a couple of hooks and bars at the fronts of the elastic to secure it, and basted it in place. I think they doubled back the ends of the elastic, to give more support to the hooks and bars. Can't remember, but that's what I'd do. I'd probably sandwich a bit of interfacing in between the doubled back elastic too.

Gerry:  Do you happen to know how much shorter they cut the elastic than the customer's waist measure? 
Do they sew the elastic waistband on, or cut the trousers with some extra length above the waist and slide the elastic waistband on top?  Seems like that would allow adjustments for different hip heights which could be marked with chalk.

Quote from: jruley on January 08, 2025, 08:24:47 AMGerry:  Do you happen to know how much shorter they cut the elastic than the customer's waist measure? 
Do they sew the elastic waistband on, or cut the trousers with some extra length above the waist and slide the elastic waistband on top?  Seems like that would allow adjustments for different hip heights which could be marked with chalk.

I don't know the details Jim, sorry. All bespoke tailors leave inlay at the waistband seam, so there's always scope for adjusting the waistband height/balance. I'm pretty sure the elastic was basted to the trousers, which suggests that it wasn't significantly smaller in circumference.

As I mentioned, the way I'd do things is to take a circumference measurement up from the seamline, at the same height that the top of the waistband will be. Just use that? That's pretty much how I do things anyway, with actual waistbands. Otherwise the tops of the bands are too loose and just slip down (unless a fitted band is cut, of course).

That might sound a little wishy washy, but elastic being what it is it'll stretch lower down and simulate a fitted band. So even if there isn't significant cinch at the top of the waistband, it shouldn't slip. I'm guessing that's why they use this method.

On the trousers I started before getting the flu (I've done nothing but watch TV boxsets the past week!) my intention was to cut a band of slightly smaller circumference on the cross-grain, then stretch the lower edge a little with the iron, to marry with the trousers. This would simulate a fitted band without all the hassles of pattern/pile disruption; and I've sort of done this in the past. The cloth is a twill, which can sometimes have a little give along the warp, so I might even be able to cut the band on grain. Not a problem if it doesn't work, I bought additional cloth just in case (I can always go back to my normal way of doing things, and I have drafted a fitted band just in case).

Made all those adjustments I mentioned above (raised crotch another 1cm, redid the fly, cleaned up where waistband connected to CB seam and where waistline at front is eased onto waistband) and all looked good so I'll transfer those changes to the pattern today and get that cleaned up so I can get started cutting out tomorrow. I'll see how the material responds to some iron work. I have a feeling it won't with it being a heavy moleskin, but we'll see. No big deal if it doesn't, I see these pants ending up more casual, closer to jeans. I'm giving them "western style" front pockets and inset pockets with a flap on the rear. But, after that I really want to try this pattern and some heavy iron work on a lighter, charcoal wool I got from the remnants pile at B Black and Sons. I'll post some pics of the moleskin pants when I'm done.

Thank you all for the very helpful advice, I feel like I learned a lot from this exercise.

Quote from: EvanTA on January 09, 2025, 02:44:00 AMI'm giving them "western style" front pockets and inset pockets with a flap on the rear.

It's always a good idea to mark the shape of the pocket on the toile then wear it, to check if the positioning works. Erasable pen is good for this. It's more visible than pencil and disappears with the heat of an iron; so if things don't look right you can always 'rub it out' (so to speak) and start again. Pilot is a good brand of pen.

In theory, cross-front pockets should only go up to the crease line of the leg and no further. Otherwise the trousers won't fold properly and a crease will appear in the mouth of the pocket over time.

This guideline (it's definitely not a rule) is often broken, however, with jeans. Nobody puts creases in them and they tend to get flung over a chair/whatever, so correct fall on a hanger isn't an issue. With dress trousers though, it should be a consideration. And there are more formal forms of cross-fronts (frogmouth for example).

Obviously this can restrict the width of the pocket, so the typical thing of leaving all the seams on the underside/back isn't advisable: seams need to be on the topside/front pattern too, which widens our pocket by a seam's width. That might not sound like much, but it can mean the difference between a functional pocket and an adornment.

You'll probably opt for more formal pockets when working with the wool you mentioned. And as you say, your moleskin ones will be more like jeans, so the above isn't critical. Worth knowing about, though.

Glad the fitting went well. Good luck with the sewing!

Quote from: jruley on January 08, 2025, 08:18:15 AMIf I understand correctly, above the knee you ease (or "full") the front part onto the back.  This takes a little bit of length from the front.  If you don't stretch the back, its length isn't changed by this step.

The knee notches are offset, don't forget. So relative to the front knee position, the back is shortened. That tidies up excess cloth under the seat.

QuoteBelow the knee, you ease (full) the back onto the front.  This step shortens the back a little, but does not change the front length.

It doesn't shorten the back, it lengthens it. Because the knee notch was taken higher then, relative to knee position of the fronts, there is more actual length on the backs across the calves.

QuoteYes both parts line up at the hem.  But if no stretching was done, they should each be a little shorter than before you started.  Correct?

Easing is done locally, at the seam. Think about the back of a shirt that is wider than its yoke. Once gathered into the yoke, is there now tightness at the waist? No, and it's the same here: away from the seam the fronts are unaffected and retain their length. The backs, however, have the same full length as before, only the ratio of length above vs below the knee has changed. There is literally less length above the knee and more below.

Technically, above the knee no actual length is added to the front; but relative to the back there is more length. To create actual length, ironwork is utilised. What the above alteration does, apart from tidying up folds under the seat, is to help create shape that better replicates the leg structure.

Quote from: Gerry on January 09, 2025, 09:42:38 PMEasing is done locally, at the seam. Think about the back of a shirt that is wider than its yoke. Once gathered into the yoke, is there now tightness at the waist? No, and it's the same here: away from the seam the fronts are unaffected and retain their length. The backs, however, have the same full length as before, only the ratio of length above vs below the knee has changed. There is literally less length above the knee and more below.

Technically, above the knee no actual length is added to the front; but relative to the back there is more length. To create actual length, ironwork is utilised. What the above alteration does, apart from tidying up folds under the seat, is to help create shape that better replicates the leg structure.

Thanks, that explains it very well.  Any length lost is at the seam, the crease lines retain their original length.  Or may gain length if they are stretched, but I was thinking of materials such as cottons which won't take traditional ironwork.

The term "length" can be used in multiple ways. What I was thinking of was the vertical distance (measured along a straight line, not a curve) from the bottom of the waistband to the hem line.  Let's call this distance "L" for short.  Not to belabor the point, but since the trouser legs are now slightly S shaped I think L will be slightly shorter than the "true length" as measured along the front and back crease lines - unless these are made longer through stretching (ironwork).

I'm very pleased with the final result! Maybe a tad tight around the hips, but otherwise these feel great. The quality of the fabric helps, it's a wonderful feeling moleskin, not sure the mill it just said "12.5oz moleskin - Japan".

Thank you all again for the help, it really helped me advance to another level.

Well done, they look very professional! Yes, there's a wee bit of tightness around the hips. But nothing that makes them unwearable. I think the gaping fly lulled you into a false sense of security with respect to ease across the hips. At least you know what to do to your pattern for the next pair.