Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Apprentices => Drafting, Fitting and Construction => Topic started by: jruley on September 05, 2016, 12:02:39 PM

Title: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 05, 2016, 12:02:39 PM
Over the years my wife has tried several pants patterns with generally poor results.  I recently stumbled across this site and decided to give the pants pattern a try:

http://www.leenas.com/English/contact_information.html
(the link to the actual draft seems to be down at the moment, but I hope will be restored soon).

The first try (not shown) was too tight-fitting to be useful, probably due to her thigh circumference.
I added 2" ease to the hip circumference (in addition to the 4cm in the pattern) and here is the result.  She says it feels comfortable except for pressure at the bottom of the fly.  No pressure in the back at the same level.

Does the pressure mean they need additional crotch depth?  Or should the fronts be hollowed more at the base of the fly?  Or is it something else?
What other issues do the professionals see, and what advice do you have?

Thanks as always,
Jim Ruley

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsrjuugmlr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpscu6f4rmo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsekthnahv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsiflxbmbi.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 06, 2016, 12:51:35 AM
As you see, your wive needs more crotch diameter, then the fly will come loose. It needs it front (maybe 0.5)  and back (maybe 1 cm) (look at the hip and high line dipping at CB). The crotch can maybe 0.5 cm deeper and the back a bit cupped out.  You must cut the left side a bit wider and higher than the right - good to see on front view.
If you have enlarged the crotch diameter it is possibly you have to take some fabric away from Back side and under the tush.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 06, 2016, 09:14:48 AM
Thank you posaune!
 
Here are some photos of the pattern.  Front laid in place on the back:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/01_zpsnsrwu9cu.jpg)

Back part by itself:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/02_zpsepwbcbcn.jpg)

Front and back in closing position:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/03_zps9kpilsjn.jpg)

Seeing these, is there anything else you would recommend before I try the changes in your last post?

Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 06, 2016, 05:20:48 PM
Just a little (very little) more curvation from hip to waist - more fabric for hip cushions.
pattern looks nice.
It can be - after enlarging the crotch diameter - you must cut the back hip line and let it overlapp maybe 1 cm at crotch seam. So you should let a s.a. about 4 cm at waist back CB tapper to 1 cm reaching hip line.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 06, 2016, 09:42:30 PM
Thanks.

So, to enlarge the crotch diameter, do I just scoop out more front and back?  Or will this make the pants too tight?  Do I need to add a gusset in the inseam from crotch to knee?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: Henry Hall on September 06, 2016, 11:11:17 PM
No, extend crotch points, maybe even drop it 0.5cm on back.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 07, 2016, 12:48:00 AM
No, extend crotch points, maybe even drop it 0.5cm on back.

Since I didn't leave any inlays, I can't extend the forks the recommended amount.  So, if I want to keep using the same toile it sounds like I will need to add gussets before re-cutting the forks.

I am confused about this part:


It can be - after enlarging the crotch diameter - you must cut the back hip line and let it overlapp maybe 1 cm at crotch seam. So you should let a s.a. about 4 cm at waist back CB tapper to 1 cm reaching hip line.


It sounds like the concern is that extending the back fork may make the back seam too long?  So, does this mean dropping the waist band at CB, tapering to nothing at the side seam?

Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: theresa in tucson on September 07, 2016, 01:10:30 AM
J, over on Stitcher's Guild there is a thread on fitting pants.  You might want to take a look at it.  Also, one of the forum members goes by the handle "More Joy", and she has some interesting thoughts on pant fitting.  She's even got You Tube videos on how to duplicate  the crotch curve.  With women, getting the right balance is difficult because we are more three dimensional than men.  Depth of body usually requires longer crotch extensions either front or back depending on where the bump out is.  Style makes a difference as well.  A trouser is really a bifurcated skirt with a lower crotch curve, whereas a jean is much closer fitted with the crotch curve much closer to the body.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 07, 2016, 03:16:36 AM
J, over on Stitcher's Guild there is a thread on fitting pants.  You might want to take a look at it.  Also, one of the forum members goes by the handle "More Joy", and she has some interesting thoughts on pant fitting.  She's even got You Tube videos on how to duplicate  the crotch curve. 

Thanks Theresa.  It looks like there are several threads, quite long, and without knowing anything about the skills of the commentators it's hard to know where to begin.

Can you post a link to the video?  I couldn't find it.

Is there a good published source for fitting women's trousers?  Most of the material in the women's reference section seems pretty dated.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 07, 2016, 06:12:11 AM

(https://s9.postimg.org/kwdntq4aj/Pants.png) (https://postimg.org/image/kwdntq4aj/)
here you see the alterations. The last one (rotating the upper back part )  is only done, when the back crotch is too long and the back fabric  needs to be go up. Setting the waist band down is not the right thing.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: theresa in tucson on September 07, 2016, 10:02:06 AM
J, a book you might want to look at is by Palmer and Pletsch, Pants for Every Body.  It's pretty good and covers a lot of ground.  They use the tissue fitting method which does not work if you are doing it by yourself.  You, on the other hand are fitting your wife, which makes all the difference in the world. 

The lady's name is Joy Bernhardt.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 07, 2016, 10:31:40 AM
J, a book you might want to look at is by Palmer and Pletsch, Pants for Every Body.  It's pretty good and covers a lot of ground.  They use the tissue fitting method which does not work if you are doing it by yourself.  You, on the other hand are fitting your wife, which makes all the difference in the world. 


Thanks again.  How does this compare to "Pants for Real People", a later work by Pati Palmer?  Reviews of both on Amazon are generally favorable.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 07, 2016, 11:17:51 AM

here you see the alterations. The last one (rotating the upper back part )  is only done, when the back crotch is too long and the back fabric  needs to be go up. Setting the waist band down is not the right thing.
lg
posaune


Thanks posaune for the diagram, which made the alteration very clear.

Here's what I did.  No left/right or upper back part changes yet.

This is the back fork with an extension pieced on.  The blue chalk line is the new cutting line,  showing the fork extension and a little scooped out of the back.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/01_zps9tdt5fl0.jpg)

The front fork:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/02_zpsmzhpgh05.jpg)

And here is how they fit.  She says the pressure at bottom of fly has been relieved:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zps1kqiyiwt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpszucoergg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zps3bd296mp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsi2dr7mbu.jpg)

The only thing she doesn't like now is they ride up when she sits down:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/s_zps4rq7j3pp.jpg)

Does this mean the thigh is still too tight, or is there another issue?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: Henry Hall on September 07, 2016, 12:01:39 PM
Narrow knee?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 07, 2016, 06:10:14 PM
Better but not enough. The dipping of the lines in back is lesser now. You must open the crotch more. I think 1 cm at back crotch only.
The trouser  has not enough back crotch length so it climbs when the back is stressed. Measure the thighs circ at their widest part and compare it to the pants leg. Mostly about 8  - 10 cm from crotch down. The trouser should have at least 4 cm more at this place. And I think they have this.
I would recommend to open one side seam from high hip to crotch height, see how much it gapes and pin it new. It maybe you need only to loose the back - it looks a bit tight and side seam curves a bit. Or more back as front. It is not much maybe 0.7 cm. So  hopefully your seam allowance is sufficient. 
Have you measured waist to floor on 4 sides? Left side  looks higher.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: theresa in tucson on September 07, 2016, 11:04:59 PM
J, the Pants For Real People is the later edition of Pants For Every Body and more comprehensive. 
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 08, 2016, 12:41:08 AM
Measure the thighs circ at their widest part and compare it to the pants leg. Mostly about 8  - 10 cm from crotch down. The trouser should have at least 4 cm more at this place.


Her thigh measures 68 cm at the indicated height, the toile is only 70 cm.  So does this mean more ease at both the knees and hips is needed?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 08, 2016, 01:13:36 AM
yep. I would made each seam wider- it is not much - 0.5 cm per seam.  And you can pin it out later down to the hem if you do not want it. Measure over the knees too. When she sits there is place which needs attention.
I would do this first. And look how the fit has changed. This way she gets more crotch diameter anyway.
How does she likes her pants? I think the hem circ is nice for her.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 08, 2016, 04:43:35 AM
OK, I let out the inside and outside leg seams 1/4".  I sloped this into the existing seam at the waist and hem.  No changes to front or back seam at this time.

She does like the hem width as is.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsj3aprict.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsb2btw4ft.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsmrlyjnqk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsrtxeigwt.jpg)

There is still some bunching up when seated, but she says they are more comfortable:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/s_zpsxz3iap6x.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 13, 2016, 02:44:48 AM
Sorry, did not see your progress. The width in all looks okay for me. The front starts to get too wide. Take away 0.5 cm from the front  crotch tip to knee and add it to the back crotch.
Measure her tights when sitting. Is it larger than standing?
Now look at the back see that horizontal fold under the waist band?
The pants wants to go up but the waist band is too tight.
Cut your wife a formed waistband. For her small waist it is the better way and the back can go up.
for the front waist straight horizontl to side seam then from side seam to CB up 3-4 cm. the upper seam willl be som cm smaller than the lower.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: theresa in tucson on September 13, 2016, 10:54:51 AM
J, one tip for women of a certain age (I fall into that category) is to place a tape measure around the hips snug enough that it does not slip, have the person sit down onto a hard chair and allow the tape measure to expand for sitting.  You should now have a measurement with the minimum adequate ease for the pants.  Fat spreads and as we get older, we accumulate a bit more.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 15, 2016, 10:53:58 AM
Thanks posaune and theresa for your latest tips.

I made a new pattern and toile incorporating all changes.  Here is the pattern.

Front on top of back:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/01_zpstykukalh.jpg)

Back by itself:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/02_zpstqfxtam6.jpg)

Front in closing position on back at crotch:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/03_zpsgoydpnjb.jpg)

The new curved waistband:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/04_zpsaso4yodn.jpg)

And here she is wearing the toile:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsilbojvgt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpswgbvouz9.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpswqywnljx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpscwagqudi.jpg)

Overall she likes the fit.  I think the curved waistband was especially helpful.  There is still some messiness while seated:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/s_zpstnmkk45n.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 15, 2016, 06:18:54 PM
Good. There is now a bit too much fabric over the back. This we tackle last.
First you have to address her hip curve. Look at the back and your back pattern side. You have on the pattern your most outgoing at the hip line. Thet is not the case with your wife. Look at the high hip line. See it starts to curve in for waist maybe after 1/2 of the distance to waist.
The hip curve of your pattern should look a bit like this. Careful: It has to run smoothly over the caving in between hip and high hip - so make it a gentle - not so sharp curved as the front pattern now is. As she has a hanging side you have to do each side etxra. I would open the darts before doing this because it needs to be new pinned afterwards anyway. Her waist intake will be very steep for a short distance after the alteration  so maybe you should work with a second short dart in back (and front). In back the dart points to the highest point and parallel to the crotch seam (The second in center between side and  main dart). In front it sits between belly start and hip bone parallel to side seam.
Sitting: It seems to me it is because she spreads under the waist - it looks tight. But not seeing her in person I can only guess.  Open the fly, let her sit down and look if it is better then. (In this case this figure type is well served with a pleated front pants or 1-1.5 cm more ease in the front pattern). But if you give her more fabric for the high hip it may be gone.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 15, 2016, 10:12:17 PM

The hip curve of your pattern should look a bit like this.


Was there a diagram?  It would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 16, 2016, 01:28:22 AM
I give you one. But you will be more succesfull, when you open the seam while she wears the pants. The seam will spread where there is pressure on the cloth and open up the amount it needs.
lg
posaune
(https://s9.postimg.org/bbwk5i5aj/high_hip.png) (https://postimg.org/image/bbwk5i5aj/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 16, 2016, 11:29:41 AM
Thank you.  I was not able to make all the changes (no second darts) without recutting the toile.

I let out the side seams of the back above the hip line, curving to the original location at the waist.  Basically I matched the curve of the front piece.  Of course you are right that this is too much in a small space, and it would be especially a problem with side pockets.  I can see how the second dart in front and back will allow a much less pronounced curve.

I also re-did the back darts to make them more parallel to the crotch seam.

Here is the result.  Both sides are still the same for now:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpskuvru7o7.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsw55ydz1w.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsiehs8hav.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsibu6jzps.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 16, 2016, 09:56:52 PM
now next step. Back: You see the back inner seam is pulled up into crotch.
And a little surplus shows under the butt.

Looking at your pattern I see that both pattern end at the Gesaessline.
I attach an original Leena draft. note the back is about nearly 1 cm less than the front. You have to recut the back.
You sew from hem till  knee and then stretch the back seam while sewing so that it meets at crotch. This will give more room for the butt and less fabric under it. It is partly what you do with an iron.


(https://s22.postimg.org/k6i7138zx/high_hip2.png) (https://postimg.org/image/k6i7138zx/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 16, 2016, 10:21:47 PM

Looking at your pattern I see that both pattern end at the Gesaessline.
I attach an original Leena draft. note the back is about nearly 1 cm less than the front. You have to recut the back.


Actually the back fork is lower, or anyway it was in the first draft before I started making changes.  But evidently not low enough.  Also extending the back fork has made the inseam of back longer from crotch to knee.  So, I will drop the back fork point more as suggested.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 17, 2016, 07:44:03 AM
Hi Jim,
to prevent such mistakes you use your measure band. Lay it on the knee notch, hold it down with one finger, put a pencil tip into the little hole at the begin and start to draft an arc over the crotch tip. Then measure your extension (here 1.5 cm) from old crotchtip to the new point at the arc.
lg
posaune
(https://s11.postimg.org/uht9cm8zj/high_hip3.png) (https://postimg.org/image/uht9cm8zj/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 17, 2016, 10:49:00 AM
Hi Jim,
to prevent such mistakes you use your measure band. Lay it on the knee notch, hold it down with one finger, put a pencil tip into the little hole at the begin and start to draft an arc over the crotch tip. Then measure your extension (here 1.5 cm) from old crotchtip to the new point at the arc.
lg
posaune


I see.  But - if you want to have to stretch the back side, you need to make it shorter, not the same radius.  Right?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 17, 2016, 07:37:10 PM
Yes. (And yes,  I know it  is a bit overdrive and practical nonsense - you can't cut as exact or draft with a pencil)  But one mistakes adds up to another). If I add 1.5 cm to the crotch tip  (Blue)and then go down for 0.8 cm (red) the result would look like this:

(https://s21.postimg.org/gxplevcvn/high_hip4.png) (https://postimg.org/image/gxplevcvn/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 19, 2016, 12:19:25 PM
Here the back inseam has been shorted from crotch to knee line as directed:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpssvluzzw5.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zps8omqe2fr.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsprbnqqb9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zps5r4dxhxh.jpg)

I think the seat does fit cleaner.  And the extra material at high hip may have helped the tension while seated:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/s_zpsbws4vf72.jpg)

Other than the second darts to reduce the side seam curvature, what other changes do you recommend?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: spookietoo on September 19, 2016, 12:49:03 PM
I believe posaune mentioned a high left hip earlier. This looks to still be a bit of an issue, has an adjustment been made for this? 
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 19, 2016, 11:03:26 PM
I believe posaune mentioned a high left hip earlier. This looks to still be a bit of an issue, has an adjustment been made for this? 

No, I have not made any left vs. right adjustments yet.  Part of this effect is the way she stands, the knees are not bent the same.  She has a lot of knee trouble and is not comfortable standing straight, even long enough for the photos.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: spookietoo on September 19, 2016, 11:32:31 PM
That's all quite understandable, I've a bit of the same problem myself.

Even given that issue, her left hip still seems fuller than her right at a higher point. The diagonal lines that are left at this point seem to be emanating from that high hip point. I could obviously be wrong - but I'm just wondering out loud, I think.

Other than that, the fit is looking very good!
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: hutch-- on September 20, 2016, 01:14:42 AM
Jim,

From the photos, its only the fabric that is messing the fit up a bit, once you are out of the mock up and working with a decent fabric for trousers/slacks you will find that the fit will be a lot better as it will "fall" better and be a lot less prone to wrinkling. One factor is its almost impossible for a person to stand exactly straight for a photo, slight posture changes, uneven floors etc ....

I will be interested to see that finished garment if your better half does not mind doing the modelling.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 20, 2016, 02:21:29 AM
I can't add an image. Sorrry this was shear dumb from my side

we see now at the back still the drags from knee into the back crotch. And the dip from hipline at CB - at high hip line the situation has more relaxed.
So I would let out another 05. cm at back crotch tip (This can be: (maybe) at the same time pin out that length under the back waist band CB taper to nothing at side seam.)
yes, the left hip is higher and fuller. The little surplus fabric vertical (back) at the right side is at the left side slanted: here you need length. You can set this side higher without her modelling I think 1 - 1.5 cm.  You can  try to scoop a little bit more out between hip line to crotch - maybe 0.5 too. It is not much now.
lg
posaune
(http://s10.postimg.org/x2t6l3u7p/high_hip5.png) (http://postimg.org/image/x2t6l3u7p/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 20, 2016, 07:22:40 AM

yes, the left hip is higher and fuller. The little surplus fabric vertical (back) at the right side is at the left side slanted: here you need length. You can set this side higher without her modelling I think 1 - 1.5 cm. 


So the extra length on the left side is needed between the crotch line and knee?  Should length be added to both seams, or only the outside seam (like a wedge)?


You can  try to scoop a little bit more out between hip line to crotch - maybe 0.5 too. It is not much now.


Is this for both sides, or only the left side?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 21, 2016, 02:40:13 AM
No it is needed under the waist band. Waistband is like an Anchor - pulling all up.

(http://s10.postimg.org/4n2sh21at/high_hip6.png) (http://postimg.org/image/4n2sh21at/)

At Back crotch both sides
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 22, 2016, 12:02:54 AM
Now presenting toile #4, which rolls up all the changes.  I have added the second dart front and back, and increased the length on the left side.

Pattern (front laid on back):

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/01_zpsqmpfinab.jpg)

Back by itself:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/02_zpsi5z4lkbr.jpg)

Front and back (dashed line at top is the right side):

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/03_zpsmbvdmjzi.jpg)

Here's how they fit:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsgp6la0kw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpscbhhd2al.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsebyxsgeo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zps7hk2bg5h.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/s_zpsszmtblhe.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 23, 2016, 03:03:35 AM
better. Repeat. In the aera I marked at back crotch, sew a bit deeper. where there is the curve. do it in 3  mm increments with big stitches. If good repeat.
lg
posaune
(http://s17.postimg.org/jcrcebirv/high_hip6.png) (http://postimg.org/image/jcrcebirv/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 23, 2016, 04:19:48 AM
Here's a little more taken out of the crotch curve, and the waistband lowered slightly at CB (which I forgot to change in the pattern).

It seems the seat has gotten messier, maybe I took out of the curve in the wrong place?

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpso08ruhdg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsgumnmce1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsmwbw2yfd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsjyxmniwp.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 23, 2016, 06:13:57 AM
It is better at crotch line but worse at hip line. Pin the excess you see at the back crotch hipline and sew it out. The curve may be not adequat enough. Look that it is fluent. Your wife has her hips higher as the hip line maybe centered between the high hip and hipline. See side view.
Start pinning out a vertical fold at center back (crease) leg starting slowly under hip line going down. From crotch line maybe 1 cm till to the hem .
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 24, 2016, 12:26:54 AM
OK.  I had her put the toile on inside out so I could easily pin out the excess along the back seam.  Of course the two sides are different but I thought it would make little difference in the middle.  Then I re-sewed the seam and she put them on right side out:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsu9y1zaov.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsxqojimwj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsmwxrputq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsd9fioynh.jpg)

The excess above the hip line is gone, but now there is a vertical rope on the left side:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/bc_zps4je14zcv.jpg)

Does this mean we need more out of the fork area, or is it something else?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 24, 2016, 04:32:56 AM
Now there is too much width here  - she does not need this. So pin it out along the crease down to the hem. I wrote about that this will be happen in former mails.

(http://s3.postimg.org/h7yx5mkq7/high_hip7.png) (http://postimg.org/image/h7yx5mkq7/)

After this you can start with a usable (cheap) fabric. Please dress with the iron the pants at inseam and back crotch like you would with a man's pants. Even it is cotton.
Now you'll have to fight with the fabric factor.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 24, 2016, 05:10:43 AM
But what about the rope in the seat?

I don't mean the two ones you marked in black.  Look carefully at the last picture, it's the short one about 1 - 2 inches left of the crotch seam.

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 24, 2016, 07:35:17 PM
First  sew away this two folds on both sides.
The rope could be a result of wrong handling. I don't see a reason why it shows now.
If you look close on the rope you'll see that the rope forms a little fold between the legs. So in case of slanted hip it could be that one cheek is deeper as the other - the folds under the buttocks are not on the same level - but I can't see it. (I see that are loose fabric in the right under the waist band at front which you must controll a bit more.) And I see at back crotch is something like a "kink" at the back crotch seam (red circle). If you sew that seam and take the crotch seam right horizontal level to your eyes and look from one end to the other the seam must look fluent and straight without any lumps or bumps- like you would holding a rifle. I do not know and my englisch is limited how to describe this test.
If you want to correct it:
You pin this fold close. You open the back crotch seam and a bit from front -  waistband stays. You look that the end of the fold is now pinned through the inseam  (or crotch seam)  of the left leg. You shove one leg into another (upper side on upper side) and look how the crotch seams differ. You mark with pencil the crotch line left on the crotch right. As I'm no friend of cutting 2 different crotch lines I would now mark the center from this both lines and sew this for new crotch seam. It can be that you must open the side seam of the right side a bit again.

Or you pin  it up direct on the body. Try with your hands to move it a bit up and a bit to the sideseam. And pin up what you have shoved to there. If it still pulls sew the crotch a bit deeper 3 mm ! (and wider).  (I think too it would be nice if you can pin up a bit the whole back too- later Jim)

But as I stated earlier I would go ahead (after sewing out at the creases and testing it) for a wearable pants. with iron work done.
lg
posaune


(http://s15.postimg.org/4b7qey5pz/high_hip8.png) (http://postimg.org/image/4b7qey5pz/)

Here a good site about alteration to the fit of pants - you do not need to understand russian.
http://korfiati.ru/2016/01/defektyi-posadki-bryuk/
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 24, 2016, 10:54:04 PM
First  sew away this two folds on both sides.


Is this meant to simulate the effect of iron work?  There is no seam here, so I'm not sure what kind of alteration I'd make to the pattern after removing these.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: Schneiderfrei on September 24, 2016, 11:30:02 PM
Thats a great site posaune many thanks.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on September 25, 2016, 12:41:18 AM
This takes away the width which is released over the bum but not needed under it. Nothing to do with the iron. (Besides you do not always need a seam for iron work, bspw.  calves ) If you need much "inner" room in your pants it is mostly the case that the pants upper leg will get too wide.
This is an alteration (short cut) I have seen in Palmer Pletsch and it works very well.
You take this out in the pattern later in this way:  you first copy the upper part (back hip to waist) and then you cut the leg from waist to hem. You shove it together and put the upper part on the pattern back again.
In men#s trouser in big sizes you do the same but here classical you hollow out the outer seam from knee to hip.
lg
posaune
(http://s21.postimg.org/9cic7vawz/high_hip9.png) (http://postimg.org/image/9cic7vawz/)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on September 30, 2016, 10:54:03 AM
OK,  I made a couple more small changes to the crotch seam which amounted to smoothing out waviness as alluded to in #46.  I think I can take it in just a little more at the spot you see pinned below in the back view.

I tried pinning away the folds, then decided to pin out the extra width just behind the side seams since this is where the pattern will be altered anyway (as shown in the diagram provided in #49).

And here is how they look now:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpseiagkmfs.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zps1r0y1rkl.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsgxh98cig.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpszzj1rfit.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on October 01, 2016, 07:49:51 PM
it is better again. But it is still draging under the seat. Pulls from crotch to knee and a bit show of too much length at the center back leg from knee to crotch line.  First please sew what you have pinned at sideseam and crotch. Shorten the trousers leg, so they can fall straight down, without touching the feet that there will be no punching up.
I'm not quite sure what is going on. Before doing anything drastic - I would first pin up  a wedge at CB waist about 1 cm to nothing between the darts.. This is supposed to lift the back away a bit from the calves and lift the inner crotch line and hip-line in back. If you see it is good pin as much as needed.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on October 09, 2016, 06:07:56 AM
Sorry for the delay, I was recovering from an abrasion on the cornea of my left eye (ouch!)

Here it is with the requested changes, including sewing the waistband 1 cm lower at CB waist:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zps1ovy7hkr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsomqpfiyg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpscv8wvjr7.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpszycxk5if.jpg)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on October 09, 2016, 08:13:21 AM
Sorry  to hear this, Jim. I hope you will recover soon. Operations on the eyes are always frightening for me. I had one last year and I'm glad to see very well again.
Better again. The knees are coming up and the lines look level. Maybe another 05 cm taking up at the back. Right side needs some attention. There are folds in front (Lenght wise and slanted) and horizontal at back. Open the  waistband there and pin it new on the person - maybe a second dart  at front In front there is a hollowness. And maybe over the belly a little bit length not much but those little slanted folds are seen in a very small version at the left too.
But it is real time to do a sample now with real stuff and iron work.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on October 09, 2016, 10:18:34 AM

But it is real time to do a sample now with real stuff and iron work.


It would be - but the other news is that my wife is seeing an orthopedic surgeon next week about a possible back operation for degenerative disk disease.  I don't know if there could be posture changes after recovery, but I think it makes sense to wait until we know something definite.

Thanks everyone for your help.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: hutch-- on October 09, 2016, 10:41:24 AM
This last set of photos show a far better fit Jim, I would agree with posaune that the next step is to make the garment with the correct fabric as it will hang a lot better. Sorry to hear about you having the problem with your eye and that your better half may have to have surgery, I guess its among the joys of getting older, something like an old car that needs to be fixed more often but if you work at it, it keeps running for a lot longer.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on February 02, 2017, 01:48:02 PM
I'm happy to report the surgery was successful, and she is recovered sufficiently to work on pants again :).

So I cut a pair out of blue linen, and here they are basted up same as the last muslin:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f_zpsmbm6qvhy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b_zpsvjrsliwd.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l_zpsyuenwh1b.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r_zpsfvlmjtbm.jpg)

She thinks she might like less ease at hip level.  What should I watch for to avoid spoiling the fit?
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: peterle on February 02, 2017, 09:10:03 PM
I donīt think thereīs enough fabric to reduce the hip. It seems to fit. The right hip has some rumples, wich is superfluous length (not width) because of the low hip/bent knee.

Eventually you could add about 1-1,5cm length to the CF to achieve enough length for the belly and get a straighter front waist seam. ( Draw a parallel line 1-1,5cm higher for about 5-7cm from CF towards side seam and smooth in to the existing waist seam.)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on February 02, 2017, 09:12:01 PM
You cut at center of each leg vertical and shove the panels one over the other. So you minimize the fabric but the "inner" geometry will not be touched. This is when she wants the whole pants thighter. Be careful at waist.
If just the legs you start a cut horizontal under the Gesaessline to center leg and at center vertical down and shove the outside a bit over the inside. You true from hip point to knee the out seam. Both front and back. If she feels it should coup a bit under the tush at back - just the back leg.
Lg
posaune
Pin the right side a bit higher 0 at CB and CF up side seam 1 cm (I means pin the waist band lower) 
oh posts cross with Peterle's.
Yes, the side view of the sit of waist band is nothing you would be proud off. But hem hem a higher set waistband in front does not flatter us over the fiffties ladys, Peter.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on February 03, 2017, 01:53:19 AM
Thanks posaune and peterle!


Eventually you could add about 1-1,5cm length to the CF to achieve enough length for the belly and get a straighter front waist seam. ( Draw a parallel line 1-1,5cm higher for about 5-7cm from CF towards side seam and smooth in to the existing waist seam.)


If you go back to #19 and #21, the waistband is cut in a curve.  So there's no way it's going to look straight in the side view.


Pin the right side a bit higher 0 at CB and CF up side seam 1 cm (I means pin the waist band lower) 


The right side is already cut a little lower, I think the ripples may be because she stood with her knee bent.  I'll check when she tries them on again.

Thanks,

Jim
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: peterle on February 03, 2017, 02:03:50 AM
Yes, the side view of the sit of waist band is nothing you would be proud off. But hem hem a higher set waistband in front does not flatter us over the fiffties ladys, Peter.

Oh I see....
So itīs better style to leave it as is? ( I think under belly waistband wonīt be an option as well?)
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on February 03, 2017, 03:48:17 AM
yes exactly. Not a underbelly waistband like men uses - it is just a bit lower than real waist so that the upper body appears longer. The waistband is contoured - so very comfortable.
The side view of the waist band: It is perfect, when the CB is the highest point, and then it sinks slowly down to the CF. In this pics you see that it goes up from CB to side seam and then sinks down to CF.
If you have it higher in CB you prevent a "Mauerer decolltee (means decolltee of a brick layer - there may be an english expression)".
Lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: theresa in tucson on February 03, 2017, 05:16:41 AM
Posaune, in American it is referred to as "plumber's butt", :D, but you have the right idea.  Jay, you are on the right track having the waist higher at the back than the front.

Theresa in Tucson
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: hutch-- on March 10, 2017, 09:40:13 PM
He he, we have a similar expression here in OZ. Track pants and stubbies worn half mast with the waistband at about hip level which shows the top half of their behind. The high back along side a generally higher waistband makes these thing fit a lot better and are a lot more comfortable to wear.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: Schneiderfrei on March 11, 2017, 12:18:29 PM
Australians are familiar with "Brickies Crack", a little too familiar actually.
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on March 16, 2017, 11:38:41 AM
Finally got these finished, here are the results:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/f2_zpsr4rlf4pn.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/b2_zpsavwxc58p.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/l2_zpsyju6osft.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/KER_pant/r2_zpsxix3r4b1.jpg)

I think they fit pretty well, but somehow she feels they are "too big".  So I need to try posaune's suggestions from #58 for the next pair.  Unless of course posaune has more ideas after seeing these pictures...
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on March 17, 2017, 12:43:02 AM
First ask her how she feel inside the pants and where she thinks you could take away. The pants fits nice for me but it may look a bit like a potatoe sack for a critical self. That is because it is made from linen. As I wrote; you are now fighting with fabric factor. Linen pants are cut mostly with just a bit of shaping and best with straight legs. (looks swell on ladies with legs up to the chin) Linen is heavy and has a heavy drape. They tend to do grow sitting on the body. I sew an "Eckenband" into back crotch seam so it will not hang down. As you can see at front crotch there is already a little plus forming, which is maybe the point of her critique. Here you could pin out about 1 cm down to hem.
You make a pants look slimmer if you alter the knee width. The shaping is done from knee to bum. But it is crucial and like opening a can of worms.  Easly it is overdone and you have to alter the back crotch angle and length too.
lg
posaune
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: jruley on March 17, 2017, 11:05:36 AM
First ask her how she feel inside the pants and where she thinks you could take away.

I think the main issue is too much ease at the hip, but this is where we added it so the pants weren't tight when sitting down.  So what can I do?


As you can see at front crotch there is already a little plus forming, which is maybe the point of her critique. Here you could pin out about 1 cm down to hem.

Do you mean pin width out of the leg seam, or the front seam?

Thanks,
Jim
Title: Re: Women's Pants toile fit check
Post by: posaune on March 17, 2017, 06:59:22 PM
(https://s16.pixxxels.org/5116m5qo1/pantsjim.png) (https://pixxxels.org/image/5116m5qo1/)

The red line shows how to decrease the ease. Sewing  0.5 cm besides the outer seam (same distance from waist down to hem) you take out 2 cm ease over the hip. if needed more. (Because it is linen maybe it has grown. After washing it will be smaller and grow again when worn).

The green line shows how to make the pants legs smaller (same hem circ as before).  But careful it takes out at thighs and if real tight you need more length at back to sit down because there is no reserve in the thighs anymore.
lg
posaune
the blue line is how you can get rid of the little folds under the zip. Pin the fold and measure it. Cut and rotate close about what you measured. True the curve.