Advice on this sloper?

[krudsma]

Ok, I've re-drafted the sleeve, and then performed the forward shoulder alteration as Posaune instructed. Let me know if this looks correct (blue line is before the alteration, red is after):




This is how it looks when attached - some work still needs to be done. I believe I need to add some ease to the sleevecap, and potentially adjust the pitch of the sleeve. Excuse the length - I'm running out of material so it's obviously too short.



Compare this to the bodice without a sleeve attached - it seems to fit well, which suggests that the issues are only in the sleeves:



Interested to here how you all think I should proceed. How does one adjust the pitch of a one piece sleeve? Do I just remove 1cm from the back sleeve seamline and add it to the front?

[peterle]

Its not just the sleeves wich are different, the first series is with tshirt the second without. Uncompareable. Better you decide and stick with it.

What do you mean by "adjusting the pitch"?

The cap is full enough in my eyes, but he horizontal line on the cap is dramatically falling towards the front. This indicates, the sleeve is not inserted right, it should be horizontal. Did you do the marks I recommended in the last post? (Point 4 of your cap does not necessarily have to match the shoulder seam).

[krudsma]

Sorry, that line is leftover from when I had cut the sleeve earlier. It doesn't correspond to this new draft. The front and back pitch points match so I believe it's inserted correctly.

As for adjusting the pitch (probably not the right term), I just mean that the rotation of the sleeve doesn't seem to match that of my arm - my arm is hitting the front of the sleeve and pulling the whole thing forward, causing the wrinkles all along the front and restricting mobility.

Will take some new pics without a t-shirt later this evening.

Edit: Ok, new pics without a t-shirt. You're right, the fit is closer to the other set. However, there's still a lot of wrinkling on the front of the sleeve. What would account for this?

[Gerry]

Edit: Ok, new pics without a t-shirt. You're right, the fit is closer to the other set. However, there's still a lot of wrinkling on the front of the sleeve. What would account for this?

Perhaps you're expecting too much from the material you're using? It's light weight and isn't going to drape like heavier, more substantial cloth. Did you press it? It doesn't look like there's any tightness there, so I doubt re-pitching is going to do that much, though the shortness probably doesn't help. I am not experienced in these matters though, so shall bow out and defer to those with greater knowledge. 

[krudsma]

That's a fair point, hadn't really considered the material. That said, I'm less concerned at this point with how the wrinkles look but how it feels. The sleeve just feels tight, especially when I reach forward or bend my elbow.

[peterle]

Ok, I see. When you think the rotation is not right, just rotate the sleeve a bit in the armhole. The seams will not match, but this can be adressed later. Just try it.

My main concerne is the sever pulling fold from the pin to the end of the shoulder. The bodice is pulled away from the neckhole. Did you enlarge the shoulders?
I wonder why the pic with the arrows of post 35 looks yet so much better? The distortions seem to be just in the front of the cap.

[krudsma]

That is very weird, I hadn't noticed it. I didn't change the shoulders or armhole at all since post #35, just the sleeve. I'll try rotating it in the armhole a bit to see if that helps.

[Schneiderfrei]

Rotation of about 1 cm forward, i.e. the apex of the sleeve cap is roatated toward the front, and conversely the seam at the bottom toward the back, seems to be a constant feature in some Italian shirts.

[krudsma]

Interesting! I've never had the pleasure of owning an Italian shirt so I wouldn't know.

Sleeve rotated 1cm counter-clockwise (and new backdrop):



Feeling better! Elbow still feels super tight so I might just need to go with a lower cap - I still think I need about 1.5cm ease in the cap as well and will try that before I draft a lower cap. The stress from the shoulder to the neck pin seems to be resolved which makes me think it was a result of the sleeve fitting too tightly at the shoulder.

[peterle]

Doesn´t look that bad! And I don´t see, that the elbow is to tight?

Ease in a shirt sleeve cap is needed when the shoulders are not wide enough. Then the sleeve cap has to "cup" the roundness of the shoulder. You don´t need ease when you place the armhole seam far enough outwards at the edge of the shoulder.

What I wanted to add is, I don´t like your cap line yet. It´somehow quirky. Such a high cap needs an exaggerated contour, and in my eyes it also doesn´t work when the highest cap point is in the middle of the sleeve. It must be more in the front halve. There are pattern systems out there, wich obey this detail and allow to produce a cap indivudually for a given armhole. Is your pattern probably meant for a much lower cap?

I would imagine something like this (bear in mind, I never draw with the computer and Posaune would do it much better):

[Gerry]

Elbow still feels super tight so I might just need to go with a lower cap

It might be an idea to post a photo of you with your sleeved arm bent upwards and another with it stretching out. If the elbow/upper arm is constricted, then the obvious solution is to add more circumference there. Post pics first, though? As peterle says, it doesn't look tight. Try comparing the fit with a garment you already own. Again, perhaps you're expecting too much?

[posaune]

I attach a pic from Ruben Bakker about fitting a shirt here sideview- the forward arm.  Mr. Ruben tailores in the Netherland
https://nl.pinterest.com/tailored_rb/.
And here is the text which belongs to the side view pic:

The side view reveals some additional problems. The first one that is especially evident is the stooped neck, ie a forward angled neck. I will make the neckline on the yoke slightly higher, and slightly lower on the front, to sort of "shift" the neckline forward.

Then the sleeve, which is angled backwards. At time of measurement, I will decide wether or not I want the sleeve to be angled to compensate for any natural armstances. Moving the middle of the sleeve back, shifts the natural stance of the sleeve forward, which this customer obviously needs.

Being a kitesurfer and pretty athletic overall, he has what we call "athletic arms". Athletic arms are both bent more then normal arms, but also stand forward when looking from the side. Would we attach the sleeve in the default manner, draglines would have appeared that indicate a wrong sleeve setting.

The back of the sleeve is a little bulged. While this is normal to some extent – we still need to be able to move – this is a little excessive and I will adjust the line the scye takes on the back accordingly. There has also been some extra adjustment in the back where the yoke joins the back of the shirt.





and if you lay the sleeves together like sewn you see they have a nice curve - ever so slightly - where they met.

[Gerry]

There's also some elementary stuff on drafting sleeves below, in video form, courtesy of Don McCunn. Other vids on his site deal with measuring for, and fitting, sleeves. Plus he demonstrates how to include an elbow dart to account for the forward bend of the forearm. Not suitable for all garments, but it might iron out (literally and metaphorically) the creases at your elbow. (scroll down for the "The Sleeve Sloper and Variations" heading, then scroll down to click on 'week one').

http://patternmaking-classes.com

[Petruchio]

I attach a pic from Ruben Bakker about fitting a shirt here sideview- the forward arm.  Mr. Ruben tailores in the Netherland
https://nl.pinterest.com/tailored_rb/.
And here is the text which belongs to the side view pic:

The side view reveals some additional problems. The first one that is especially evident is the stooped neck, ie a forward angled neck. I will make the neckline on the yoke slightly higher, and slightly lower on the front, to sort of "shift" the neckline forward.

Then the sleeve, which is angled backwards. At time of measurement, I will decide wether or not I want the sleeve to be angled to compensate for any natural armstances. Moving the middle of the sleeve back, shifts the natural stance of the sleeve forward, which this customer obviously needs.

Being a kitesurfer and pretty athletic overall, he has what we call "athletic arms". Athletic arms are both bent more then normal arms, but also stand forward when looking from the side. Would we attach the sleeve in the default manner, draglines would have appeared that indicate a wrong sleeve setting.

The back of the sleeve is a little bulged. While this is normal to some extent – we still need to be able to move – this is a little excessive and I will adjust the line the scye takes on the back accordingly. There has also been some extra adjustment in the back where the yoke joins the back of the shirt.





and if you lay the sleeves together like sewn you see they have a nice curve - ever so slightly - where they met.

Thanks posaune for sharing this. I was wondering if you have the whole article from ruben bakker on fitting a shirt? I think it would really helpful to share it one more time, since it isn't available any longer on his website (i.e. his website in general seems to be offline)

[Gerry]

I stumbled across this info in an old book I own. Might be of interest: