Rundschau Cutting System Clarification Please

[Adriel]

How about checking my math and answering a few questions before drafting using the Rundschau Cutting System?



I decided to switch to using metric, far easier and already seeing improvement. Also, see improvement in this system over Rhinehart as the distance between the second and third lines on the former is locked at 7.62cm where the latter is based on a formula (in my case comes out to 7.65cm). Further, if understand correctly, no defining the knee width.


Diagram 531
How is G to M determined?


Diagram 533
Though I am not sure about the inner seam. Is G1 connected to b, determining S2 and K2? Or in other words, how is the distance from S1 and S2 determined?
How is point 2 determined?


Diagram 533
Displace mean widen, as in the hem and knee?
Why is the hem displaced twice, a/b 2.5cm and then c/d 1cm?
For my particular case, should the square be placed at S or S5?


Diagram 535
B6 to B7, how do you choose between 2.5 and 3cm?
Is B7 to B4 the same as the width of the dart(s)?
Why is there two darts shown?
How are the darts placed?


Finally, how does this statement "a little shortness at the back crotch point" affect the draft? Please give specific points, I am a visual person, appreciated.

Thank you in advance! 

[Henry Hall]

M is the centre point between G-G1.

[Adriel]

M is the centre point between G-G1.

Thank you.

So I asked too many questions? What then is the limit? Is it possible to break down into diagrams and still get them answered? Otherwise do not see using this system possible.

[Adriel]

I feel dumb getting hung up, the answer comes as you draft. There are a few issues with the translation, once or twice had to come up with best guess. I can share these if desired. Over all, appreciative to Henry for sharing it, far better then the previous.

Further, I took pictures of where I had difficulty if any errors are apparent can discuss. If looks good to go, then will get cracking on the sloper.

I did add a total of 1,5cm to the side seam, 1cm in front and 0,5cm in the back, considering suggested to let out 2cm. Figured if not needed, noted where I had done this so could be reversed.



My question is this: The instructions did not include the location of the darts, how are these determined?

Again, many thanks and appreciation!

[posaune]

I attach a draft. I have done the trouser after your measurements. (These are without seam allowances) I have copied the fly pattern. For the right side you must add an extra allowance at the fly seam -  you need 1 cm at least here for hiding the zip.  And I have given you the fly concept for a muslin. How to sew look up the side I gave you.
The darts are done where needed. In my pic it is front center waist because it will be a pleat. If no pleat I would place it about 6-8 cm from side seam. Back it is first dart center of back waist the the 2. center of remaining space. But this is only standard.
lg
posaune
sorry forgot, getting too old for this

[peterle]

There are some important things to know:

1. When you add inlays for fitting you do this when cutting the muslin, not in the pattern. You just ads them outside of the marked pattern lines. At the top of the seat seam you should add an inlay of about 4cm (in the case a straighter seat is necessary).
2.Please notice the last sentence in the text. It means that You will sew 0,75cm inwards from the drafted lines( wich is usually half a sewing machine foot. so when you run the line along the right edge of the foot with the needle centered, the seam will be 0,75cm inwards) . Only the darts and the seat seam are sewing lines.

There are two darts in the back because there are 4cm leftover to be removed. This is too much for a single dart ,so it´s divided to two darts (2,5cm, 1,5cm). the main dart is approximately in the middle of the back waistline. The darts are strictly perpendicular to the waistline.

Flaws in your draft:
The lower part of your legs is not right. a, b , and d are the final points of the seamlines. When you do the straight provisorial lines you aim them 1cm inwards from a,b,c and d. When you draw the final seam lines you can follow the straight line first and then curve the line gently towards the hem so it ends perpendicular to the hemline in the points a,b,c and d.

The upper part of your front outseam is not right. Point G should be the most protruding point of the hip curve. The line should not protrude the vertical constructionline above point G.

[TTailor]

When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.

Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.

[Adriel]

I attach a draft. I have done the trouser after your measurements. (These are without seam allowances) I have copied the fly pattern. For the right side you must add an extra allowance at the fly seam -  you need 1 cm at least here for hiding the zip.  And I have given you the fly concept for a muslin. How to sew look up the side I gave you.
The darts are done where needed. In my pic it is front center waist because it will be a pleat. If no pleat I would place it about 6-8 cm from side seam. Back it is first dart center of back waist the the 2. center of remaining space. But this is only standard.
lg
posaune
sorry forgot, getting too old for this

Regarding making mistakes, I do too, sometimes wonder how the really dumb ones can even happen.

Fantastic! Appreciate you taking the time!    Is there a larger picture, as when larger then preview I can't read... Great help seeing how the seams should be shaped and for the fly covers.

The instructions include the seam allowance, so why remove it?

Not sure how I would add a pleat, wasn't planning, though of course open to learning.   

There are some important things to know:

I could take offense for the suggestion I do not know how to operate a sewing machine and sew, though think had the best intentions and like me, presentation isn't a strong suit. 

1. When you add inlays for fitting you do this when cutting the muslin, not in the pattern. You just ads them outside of the marked pattern lines. At the top of the seat seam you should add an inlay of about 4cm (in the case a straighter seat is necessary).

Greaat! Asked WA the inlay amount and here is the answer. 

So no inlay on the side seams? Okay.

2.Please notice the last sentence in the text. It means that You will sew 0,75cm inwards from the drafted lines( wich is usually half a sewing machine foot. so when you run the line along the right edge of the foot with the needle centered, the seam will be 0,75cm inwards) . Only the darts and the seat seam are sewing lines.

Okay.

There are two darts in the back because there are 4cm leftover to be removed. This is too much for a single dart ,so it´s divided to two darts (2,5cm, 1,5cm). the main dart is approximately in the middle of the back waistline. The darts are strictly perpendicular to the waistline.

There is only about 1,5cm of leftover.


This is where the errors in the translation exist. On diagram 534, the angle of G2 to G3 is not defined (nor the distance between B1 to B3 though do not think need). Then on diagram 535, B6 to B7, doesn't mention 1/2cm on the diagram and which side the breath of the waist, assumed on the inside based on the diagram. So should the shortfall be 4cm?

Flaws in your draft:
The lower part of your legs is not right. a, b , and d are the final points of the seamlines. When you do the straight provisorial lines you aim them 1cm inwards from a,b,c and d. When you draw the final seam lines you can follow the straight line first and then curve the line gently towards the hem so it ends perpendicular to the hemline in the points a,b,c and d.

I am sorry it was not clear that I followed the instructions, including aiming the line. I am having trouble with the back pattern getting the curves happy.

The upper part of your front outseam is not right. Point G should be the most protruding point of the hip curve. The line should not protrude the vertical constructionline above point G.

I thought it was? S2/S3 to G1 and S4 to G4 are guidelines, should they be a different colour?



By the way, tried posting this morning and found out the servers had crashed. Glad able to save my post, one forum crashed so hard lost all the previous posts and all content. Bums me as was hoping to be already sewing.

[Henry Hall]

When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.

Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.

I'm sure I recall reading this advice somewhere on your blog (?). Though it might have been elsewhere. I wanted to ask then why this would be necessary. Is this just because the given measurements are usually 'standard' measurements for a normal figure?

[Adriel]

Redrafted four more times, first using 1,5cm above S, then had the idea to mess with the angle and tried 3cm, 6cm, and 7,5cm. I then got about 2cm, about 3cm, and 1cm in the same order. I find it interesting going more vertical gives more excess, until reaches too close to vertical, then quickly declines.



Find this also interesting as was given advice that with a flatter bum a more vertical fits better?

Or is the 5cm added to the seat to be taken up by the darts?

Thank you all in advance! 

[TTailor]

When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.

Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.

I'm sure I recall reading this advice somewhere on your blog (?). Though it might have been elsewhere. I wanted to ask then why this would be necessary. Is this just because the given measurements are usually 'standard' measurements for a normal figure?

I suggest drafting to the given numbers just for the understanding of it all.
The draft gives clues to what the draft considers standard.
I have seen many people (beginners) who have non standard measurements try to apply them to a draft that they have found only to get confused when their pattern doesnt follow the "plan"
If one starts with a comparison of these numbers one can identify in advance the changes that will appear when drafting.
Example: the draft shows a waist of 32 and a hip 38"  as "standard" proportion but the taken measurements Are 32" waist and 42" hip or perhaps 39" waist and 38" hip. Following the draft as written will give very different placement of seam lines from what you see with the standard numbers.

[posaune]

Yes Terri, that's it. We did draw patterns with a scale 1:4 with standard measurements and did the "big" pattern (with body measurements) only after we had checked the draft.
Another remark: If you draft a "big" trouser pattern, you draft first the front pattern. You cut out the front pattern and fasten it to another sheet of paper. You draw the hip, knee, waist line, center lines longer on both sides and start to draft the back pattern using the front as template. So your front pattern stays okay and you do not need to copy the back pattern.

and bravo Adriel: you have found one of the "switches" in the draft for indivuell fitting. But the steepness of the back crotch depends also on the style of the trouser.
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

[...]

and bravo Adriel: you have found one of the "switches" in the draft for indivuell fitting. But the steepness of the back crotch depends also on the style of the trouser.
lg
posaune

For a moment there, thought was going to be ignored, though the question on darts was not answered. Thank you for the complement. As I understand from WA, the steep vertical is for workwear and riding trousers as less pull in the crotch and the reverse is for dress trousers. I had the thought last night to make both and see how they fit. Can I use a one layer waistband just to hold them for the first fitting?

[Adriel]

So where is center front of the trouser on this system?

Thank y'all in advance! 

[peterle]

Center front of the trousers is the finished fly seam from the waist to the crotch point. It is 0,75cm inwards from B1-S2 and b2-S3.

Don´t mess it up with the front center line, wich is M1-M2.