Drafting trousers.

[posaune]

as you are so excited about draft, I remembered a "research" I did once. But I gave up - the possibilities where too much.
I attach a pic. Here you see several Rundschau drafts one over the others - so as you would sew them. All have the same measurements - only the triggers have other values.
the green one is a jeans. This is why I like Rundschau.
lg
posaune

[Adriel]

as you are so excited about draft, I remembered a "research" I did once. But I gave up - the possibilities where too much.

I am sorry, I am not understanding what you are saying. Are you referring to this attached draft?

I attach a pic. Here you see several Rundschau drafts one over the others - so as you would sew them. All have the same measurements - only the triggers have other values.
the green one is a jeans. This is why I like Rundschau.
lg
posaune

This is what I did also, as you may recall. Thank you for sharing, interesting we had the same thought. What are the other coloured lines for?

Speaking of jeans, figured could use more practice so was starting in on this: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196. Practice is the only way to get better. 

[Henry Hall]

I don't see what it proves.

[Hendrick]

I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

[Adriel]

I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

Interesting, thank you! 

By the way, both my Opa and I could never get dress to fit in Levis for some reason, so never have worn them. Instead, family went with Lee. Sadly, don't wear like they used to and missed out on getting Cone denim.

Good to know best to get the fit right and flat, then over time some ease will happen. Does this also happen with other cotton and wool wovens?

[Henry Hall]

I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

The seat seam is on the other side, not the side seam side, so I don't see the relevance. The thing with jeans is they clearly extend the crotch points and draft a fairly straight seat seam. All seat seams are on the bias. On the jeans the leg shape is made by having a huge curve from the crotch into the knee.

The issue I was addressing was how and why the comparison diagram somehow showed Rundschau/M&S to be especially marvellous?

[Adriel]

[...]

The issue I was addressing was how and why the comparison diagram somehow showed Rundschau/M&S to be especially marvellous?

As I understand, the seat angle can be easily changed by increasing the distance between S and S1 without affecting any other measurements.

[Henry Hall]

Yes, I know the advantages of that system, but the fact English tailoring does and always has produced excellent trousers without it tells another story I think.

[Adriel]

Yes, I know the advantages of that system, but the fact English tailoring does and always has produced excellent trousers without it tells another story I think.

I feel the same, just that as I understand, the English tailoring might need more fitting where the German may not. We shall see, first up is the German. Ironed the muslin while fixing lunch, then off to an appointment, hopefully after can calk out at least one Rundschau.

The advantage of the English is does give drafts for corpulent figures which have yet to find for the German (eventually desire to tailor a trouser for my 355 pound Brother, mostly just bigger fellow).

[Schneiderfrei]

I think the German drafts get closer. That's the main difference as I see it. There is less time at the muslin, so to speak.  The fashion points are all variable.

[Hendrick]

Hi Henry,
The relevance is that when the sideseam is the selvedge, already the center leg of the pant is not straight to the grain of the fabric. Inherently, with the sides being straight, the centerback wiil be more bias than in mormal trousers...

Regards, Hendrick

[peterle]

Your Morris pattern will not work at all. There are a lot of mistakes in your draft.

Point 24 has to lie on the horizontal line 2-7 in any case: A precise text to achieve this point would be: Elongate the line 2-7 to the right. Measure distance 2-7. Subtract this amount from  half waist measure plus 2in. Now measure the remaining amount from point 23 onto the elongated line to find point 24.

There is also something wrong with your length measures. The part above the crotchline is a lot too long compared to the rest of the legs in my eyes, even for high waisted trousers. Please recheck.


@ Posaune: I´m always interested in your overlay draftings. Do you remember wich triggers you altered in this case? The seat angles seem  all the same. Did you just alter the knee width? and did you overlay them by matching the crotch points and the inseam knee points?

[posaune]

Peterle,  as far as I remember I played with different crotch diameters back and front and place of the back center- so only the jeans had another seat angle becaue of style. yes overlayed at crotch point and front inseam.
lg
posaune

[peterle]

Thanks Posaune. Now I have to think about, what I can learn from the overlay draft.

[Adriel]

Once again not getting notifications... wondered why quiet, been getting after the Rundschau now that had a busy week, too busy. Slight delay as had a hand twitch dropping the chalk, white glue to the rescue, should be dry soon.

Your Morris pattern will not work at all. There are a lot of mistakes in your draft.

Figured.

Point 24 has to lie on the horizontal line 2-7 in any case: A precise text to achieve this point would be: Elongate the line 2-7 to the right. Measure distance 2-7. Subtract this amount from  half waist measure plus 2in. Now measure the remaining amount from point 23 onto the elongated line to find point 24.

Much appreciated!

There is also something wrong with your length measures. The part above the crotchline is a lot too long compared to the rest of the legs in my eyes, even for high waisted trousers. Please recheck.

I know, didn't look right to me either though all the measurements checked out, why I was not planning to use for self. Might work for some, just not me.

At least achieved the objective of trying an English pattern and learned a lot thanks to y'all.