Drafting trousers.

[Henry Hall]

Don't take it as a replacement recommendation! Older drafts also have their own issues. I just prefer the systems. Mueller & Sohn produces an excellent pair of trousers.

Listen to Peterle though; he knows what he's doing. It's not specifically to annoy you.

[Adriel]

Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts.
Peterle and I took the time to describe how to set the darts.  Darts are a very personell thing  they depends on the figure.
lg
posaune

Thank you! 

Okay, so how then do I need to ask the question so it is clear? I don't feel good enough at German to converse, it's the changes in endings of words I get confused with (basically self taught). Trim the question down and then get asked clarification if needed?

I have had two concussions and after the second, most people don't understand me to where feels like speaking a foreign language, gets frustrating and tiring. Being Autistic doesn't make it any easier as at times forget modulation.

I am not seeing how the 4cm stated works with the 3cm the draft provides. My question was whether to use the 3cm or to add to the draft the additional 1cm.

If I add the one 1cm them the concern is where.

I am taking Henry's advice to use the CPG and Terry plus Henry to draft at 1/4 scale, though stopping to lunch.

If the darts are personal, then where do I find the information on how to determine and place? I have a stack of "assigned" reading and has me overwhelmed, want to get close for now as read through.

[Henry Hall]

If you add more to the draft you'd have to take more out with the darts!

The placement of the darts is shown. The longest one is placed halfway between B5 - B4 and the shorter one between that dart and B4.

I recall now that the translation of Ausfall as 'shortfall' was what baffled me. It is the bit left over at the top once the 1/4 waist has been accounted for and ends up being taken up by the darts.

I know M&S has many fans, but there are really simpler drafts that produce equally good trousers. like e.g. the Chaudhry ones from 1970 in this thread at Cutter & Tailor.
You can see in the comment under the draft that Zuschneider remarks that they have a lot in common with Rundschau, but the Chaudhry draft tells you exactly where to put the darts.

[Adriel]

Thank you so very much for answering not just the question, though also giving more drafts to practice.  Much appreciated! 

If you add more to the draft you'd have to take more out with the darts!

With Autism, take things literal. So when told the darts equalled 4cm, thought must equal 4cm on every draft.

The placement of the darts is shown. The longest one is placed halfway between B5 - B4 and the shorter one between that dart and B4.

Yes, I understood that, I just forget which of the kind folks that told me.

I recall now that the translation of Ausfall as 'shortfall' was what baffled me. It is the bit left over at the top once the 1/4 waist has been accounted for and ends up being taken up by the darts.

Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

I know M&S has many fans, but there are really simpler drafts that produce equally good trousers. like e.g. the Chaudhry ones from 1970 in this thread at Cutter & Tailor.
You can see in the comment under the draft that Zuschneider remarks that they have a lot in common with Rundschau, but the Chaudhry draft tells you exactly where to put the darts.

Great! I will put it on the list, this afternoon leaving to go pick up three trash bags full of wool fabric. Cost? Free!

Already running late, though thought be good to reply now then delay progress until tomorrow.

[peterle]

I like the rundschau trouser draft, because it´s very versatile. It will always produce a good pattern no matter if you have wider legs or tighter ones, because the underside crotch tip is related to the knee width. It also enables you to influence the seat angle and gives an idea where to influence the through measure (crotch diameter). It also has a hip line, so you know where to measure the final hip width. So of course it is more complicated, but it also offers more features than a lot of other systems.

To Adriel:  The eccess B7- B4  in your personal pattern will be most likely different to the one in the model draft, because it depends on a very lot of things. B7- B4 only shows you how much you have to take out with the darts. When the excess isn´t more than 2,5cm, you only need one dart. When it´s 3cm I would do a 2cm larger dart and a 1cm dart.

[Henry Hall]

Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

That's no problem. It just means you only need one dart.

[Adriel]

I like the rundschau trouser draft, because it´s very versatile. It will always produce a good pattern no matter if you have wider legs or tighter ones, because the underside crotch tip is related to the knee width. It also enables you to influence the seat angle and gives an idea where to influence the through measure (crotch diameter). It also has a hip line, so you know where to measure the final hip width. So of course it is more complicated, but it also offers more features than a lot of other systems.

[Moved below.]

Peter, thank you for the information on the differences. Myself having more trouble with the F.R. Morris draft, specifically determining points 23 and 24.

Do like the nip in the front for less break and more shoe coverage (10 to Ax). Thinking for those without turn-ups to copy and transfer.

To Adriel:  The eccess B7- B4  in your personal pattern will be most likely different to the one in the model draft, because it depends on a very lot of things. B7- B4 only shows you how much you have to take out with the darts. When the excess isn´t more than 2,5cm, you only need one dart. When it´s 3cm I would do a 2cm larger dart and a 1cm dart.

Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

That's no problem. It just means you only need one dart.

Fantastisch!  Much appreciated, now ready for any seat angle. 

[Adriel]

Question on the F.R. Morris draft:
How is point 23 determined?

Other then that, fairly strait forward. Point 16 was coming out too low below crotch point (3/4"), so transferred 1/2 distance O to 9 on the same line out to create point 16. Though I am open to correction.

Thank you all in advance! 

[Henry Hall]

I'm going to warn you. I'm not sure which draft you are using from that Morris book, but you may well not get the results you expect. It's not easy fitting the older drafts.

I'm not entirely sure what silhouette you are after (from the initial thread I imagine 40s/50s) but basically, to make it easier you want something which doesn't have a ridiculously over-rounded hip curve on the topsides, none of the bizarre shapes around the bottoms and has a lot of the accuracy already built into the draft. Many older drafts require a lot of skill in making up, in ironwork and manipulation and so forth. They reflect the methods and the types of cloth from the period.

I can therefore see why the M&S drafts are recommended. They are modern and have removed a lot of errors. There are some older drafts that (through chance or design) happen to be very usable, but they are fewer rather than more.

I'm just pointing this out.

[Adriel]

I'm going to warn you. I'm not sure which draft you are using from that Morris book, but you may well not get the results you expect. It's not easy fitting the older drafts.

I'm not entirely sure what silhouette you are after (from the initial thread I imagine 40s/50s) but basically, to make it easier you want something which doesn't have a ridiculously over-rounded hip curve on the topsides, none of the bizarre shapes around the bottoms and has a lot of the accuracy already built into the draft. Many older drafts require a lot of skill in making up, in ironwork and manipulation and so forth. They reflect the methods and the types of cloth from the period.

I can therefore see why the M&S drafts are recommended. They are modern and have removed a lot of errors. There are some older drafts that (through chance or design) happen to be very usable, but they are fewer rather than more.

I'm just pointing this out.

I am using the one you posted the link to: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=83.msg316#msg316.

Was only drafting 1/4 of the given measurements to see how I liked and get more practice. I still want to know about point 23 so can finish.

Much appreciated knowing the older patterns require about over 12 ounce and heavier due to iron work. Seems with the ironwork, not conducive to pattern, especially stronger checks as get out of shape?

What I mean by classic is a fuller fit (not this current skin tight and extreme taper), higher rise, no pleats, and PTUs. If this is '40s/'50s cut, so be it. I don't give a flip about what is or is not in fashion, just what is comfortable and I enjoy. My style has been called Trad eccentric by the AAAC forum. Happen to be wearing today strait legged vintage slacks, button down cotton yarn dyed flannel shirt, vintage wool knit pullover with shawl collar flipped over the vintage Scottish herringbone tweed sport coat.

And I am thankful you are pointing it out as then will finish the current just so done.

[posaune]

the point 23 is derrived from point 22.
lg
posaune
(And it has a cut on waistband. Worn with braces (If I remember it right, worn even before my times))

[peterle]

This is a completely different kind of trousers. It will have no waistband and is to be worn with braces. It will reach 5cm above your bodies waist.

There is obviousely a bug in Diagram 1: Point 22 is on the same line as 19-20, 2,5 inches above the line 1-8. Point 23 is 3/8in inwards and 2in. lower from point 22. The 2 in. are the same amount as 1-2 (wich is the the amount of rise above the waistline). (You can see this in diagram 2 and it´s text).

I think it´s not possible that point 16 is so much too low, so redo it: draw a part of an 2 1/2 in circle with point 9 as centerpoint. pin your tape measure to point 14, take the radius to point 9 and circle it to the left till the small circle line and the large circle line cross. That´s point 16.

[Adriel]

the point 23 is derrived from point 22.
lg
posaune
(And it has a cut on waistband. Worn with braces (If I remember it right, worn even before my times))

Interesting, of course now point out, see if you didn't the back button fabric be loose. The late '40s suit trousers have both belt loops and did have suspender buttons until the "tailor" kept them (really upsetting as irreplaceable).

This is a completely different kind of trousers. It will have no waistband and is to be worn with braces. It will reach 5cm above your bodies waist.

There is obviousely a bug in Diagram 1: Point 22 is on the same line as 19-20, 2,5 inches above the line 1-8. Point 23 is 3/8in inwards and 2in. lower from point 22. The 2 in. are the same amount as 1-2 (wich is the the amount of rise above the waistline). (You can see this in diagram 2 and it´s text).

I think it´s not possible that point 16 is so much too low, so redo it: draw a part of an 2 1/2 in circle with point 9 as centerpoint. pin your tape measure to point 14, take the radius to point 9 and circle it to the left till the small circle line and the large circle line cross. That´s point 16.

The systems I have used always placed the crotch point on the same line. However, the A.G. Chaudhry trousers have the rear crotch point also dropped, plus the fly line and the seat seam are same and continuous, as seen here:



Back to F.R. Morris pattern, there is also seems the assumption to square at 22. Further, 24 and 25 do not land the same points as on the diagram despite following instructions and using the given measurements. Henry suggested it for the full cut and ease of drafting, to which appreciate, however, not yet convinced produce satisfactory results with my beginner's drafting ability.



To me, A.G. Chaudhry feels a happy middle between the fine points of Rundschau and the seeming vagueness of F.R. Morris, no offense meant. If someone new to drafting asked for a pattern system, would hand them one by  A.G. Chaudhry and once comfortable with drafting (including those darts, bane of my existence   ), then hand them Rundschau. Further, if I was in the business and could see what back angle needed, then Rundschau be the pattern.

Again thanks and appreciation for being amazing tour guides on this fun journey. 

[Henry Hall]

The bottom draft looks like Jodhpurs! The knee is way out of kilter with the widths above it. The undersides can't possibly be the same size. That is not going to work. Imagine the huge gap that will be there when you come to join the seams.

[Adriel]

The bottom draft looks like Jodhpurs! The knee is way out of kilter with the widths above it. The undersides can't possibly be the same size. That is not going to work. Imagine the huge gap that will be there when you come to join the seams.

After the second concussion, will have blank outs. Here is an example, missed 17 and 18, though really doesn't matter as not going to move to self measurements. at least though everything else passes inspection.