Charlie Watts - great Tailoring comments

[Hendrick]

The CTDA (CUTTER Tailor Designer Association) was a tailors organization. Hostek ended up hating it because it became MTM. You can look at the pictures of these "tailors" wearing their clothes and they are not what I call tailored clothes they are wearing mtm.
There are a few real tailors among them but overall, they are calling mtm tailoring.
A Tailor, who used to write here and other clothing forums had things to say about it. He turned to mtm because he could turn over more coats.
These orders went to factories and not real tailors.
Back in the day real tailors doing the Blue Line pattern adjustments produced better coats because they gained the skills and knowledge from the real tailors. Today, where are the 4-5 year apprenticeships to develop this skill and knowledge? And glued garments are not shapeable to enhance someone's appearance, MTM lacks fittings. Some of the companies were better.
A local tailor in the 70s and 80s made some ski wear. His ski pants were competitive with retail.
Better cloth cost more.
Some of the cost of Saville Row is rent/lease and shops that pursue the wealthiest people add on to the cost because the customers will pay it. So, a tailor that doesn't include these high costs actually might be a Saville Row who moved to a more peaceful place to live. Small town tailors are not by default worse.
Some tailors were taught about ever changing culture and how it shapes clothing.
National culture certainly shapes clothes, Local culture shapes clothes, too.
These mega corporations have limits.

Believe me, there's always worse... With brands outsourcing further and further away from home and ever increasing pressure on deadlines (and and profit margins!) RTW brands are becoming more and more anonimous in the look and feel of their fits. It used to be that, even in RTW, brands had their own cuts and volumes and often an "in house tailor" to guard these particularities. Nowadays they have buyers and merchandisers picking styles in showrooms... Many brands had pattern studios and a small sample line for preproduction sampling. These days most only have "fit technicians" ("sorry sir, these trousers are sized smaller"), 'nough said. Top of the range RTW guards their character with care, say a Dior women's jacket is instantly recognisable as such.

Cheers, Hendrick

[Gerry]

An overview of the wholesale bespoke trade from the horse's mouth (Montague Burton)

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Montague_Burton/2tNRAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wholesale+bespoke+tailors&pg=PA36&printsec=frontco

[Gerry]

What I found fascinating about that 1898 report is that in the late 19th century they had the foresight to rally against the RTW trend. Presumably they'd seen the writing on the wall, courtesy of the US and Canada, and decided to do something about it.

Having read through quite a bit this morning, the situation was clearly more nuanced than this. Often it was a way for entrepreneurial tailors to make money by encroaching on both the RTW and genuine bespoke markets. Basically, selling suits to the working man so that they could look as respectable as a rich gent ... though, as one writer put it, it is not clear why the 'common man' would wish to do this.

It also seems to be the case, at least in the UK, that a lot of the industrialisation that we associate with RTW was pioneered by the MTM manufacturers. It was a case of getting their foot in the door first. The general public definitely seemed to prefer MTM, simply because it gave them a sense of individuality. The industry was largely helped by government commissions to make uniforms during WWI, and demob suits at its end. Afterwards, companies had factory space and machinery to build their huge MTM empires.

Ultimately, the whole industry went into decline in the 70s on account of changing trends in fashion, which began in the 60s. A push towards more casual clothing meant that by the early 70s demand for suits had fallen dramatically. Businesses either folded or bought in jeans etc from 'outside' (not made by themselves) to stay afloat. My own memory of the former MTM chains, as they were in the 70s, is that they were the last place anyone with an eye for fashion would want to shop. The same went for many department stores.

[Greger]

Hendrick,
Hostek was appalled that Bill Gates wore lower class clothes.

[Hendrick]

Hendrick,
Hostek was appalled that Bill Gates wore lower class clothes.

And understandably so! He would have loved David Beckham though!!

Cheers, Hendrick

[Steelmillal]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DHc5FyZxctF/

Why we are all here, right? Hi Sol!

That, and someone left the gate open again

...continue...

[jruley]

The industry was largely helped by government commissions to make uniforms during WWI, and demob suits at its end.

I thought demob suits were after WWII?  Or did they issue them in 1918 as well?

[Gerry]

The industry was largely helped by government commissions to make uniforms during WWI, and demob suits at its end.

I thought demob suits were after WWII?  Or did they issue them in 1918 as well?

I thought that too Jim, but apparently they were also issued after WWI. Whether they were called 'demob', I don't know. Perhaps they were issued under different circumstances, i.e. discounted suits for returning troops rather than free? If I can retrace my steps, I'll post to the link.

[Gerry]

Well that took all of 10 seconds to find (for a change!)  Second paragraph down (though the whole page is worth reading - very informative):

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Well_Suited/9R-8ZVMOUbYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=wholesale+bespoke+tailors&pg=PA2&printsec=frontcover

Unfortunately not much detail, but strange that this is never mentioned in history documentaries.

Re the info on that page in general, I knew that for much of the 20th century the British public, irrespective of class, had access to some form of tailoring, even if elementary: 'wholesale bespoke' (MTM). My mistake was assuming it was ever thus.

[Hendrick]

The industry was largely helped by government commissions to make uniforms during WWI, and demob suits at its end.

I thought demob suits were after WWII?  Or did they issue them in 1918 as well?

I remember a shop in London in the early 80s called Demob!

London was incredible then for shoppers and fashionistas, it was almost like a pilgrimage.


Cheers, Hendrick


ps, maybe the word "demob", was only introced after WWII but I believe there was a similar arrangement by the UKgov after WWI

[Gerry]

ps, maybe the word "demob", was only introced after WWII but I believe there was a similar arrangement by the UKgov after WWI

You're absolutely right Hendrick, the term came about after WWII, but they were also issued after 'The Great War'. It's not worth linking to the books containing this snippet (merely a single line is given and no details).

[Gerry]

I do have some issue with the Leeds book. It leaves the false impression that the suit was shunned by many in the 60s. In reality it was a mainstay of pretty much every self-respecting Mod ... and the Mods were a working-class movement. Many preferred to use independent tailors though, because the 'multiples' (the large factories) weren't meeting their demands. They wanted exclusivity and lighter construction and the factories offered neither (this is mentioned in the book, in all fairness). So yes, from the perspective of the MTM factories things did start to slow down. Meanwhile, from the mid 60s onwards RTW suits thrived, courtesy of the Carnaby and Kings Road Boutiques (though many of the Chelsea menswear boutiques used tailoring houses to make up their stock).

Also, it's very clear from film footage of the Edwardian era that the majority of working class men wore suits long before 1920. This two part doc was screened on the beeb many moons ago and is a fascinating record (just watch the first few minutes ... not a pair of jeans or sneakers in sight):

No wonder Savile Row tailors after WWII attempted to revive Edwardian style. Looking back with rose-tinted spectacles, they remembered it as a golden era when everyone dressed accordingly. 

[Hendrick]

I do have some issue with the Leeds book. It leaves the false impression that the suit was shunned by many in the 60s. In reality it was a mainstay of pretty much every self-respecting Mod ... and the Mods were a working-class movement. Many preferred to use independent tailors though, because the 'multiples' (the large factories) weren't meeting their demands. They wanted exclusivity and lighter construction and the factories offered neither (this is mentioned in the book, in all fairness). So yes, from the perspective of the MTM factories things did start to slow down. Meanwhile, from the mid 60s onwards RTW suits thrived, courtesy of the Carnaby and Kings Road Boutiques (though many of the Chelsea menswear boutiques used tailoring houses to make up their stock).

Also, it's very clear from film footage of the Edwardian era that the majority of the working class wore suits long before 1920. This two part doc was screened on the beeb many moons ago and is a fascinating record (just watch the first few minutes ... not a pair of jeans or sneakers in sight):

No wonder Savile Row tailors after WWII attempted to revive Edwardian style. Looking back with rose-tinted spectacles, they remembered it as a golden era when everyone dressed accordingly. 

Tailleur style, we were talking about the 60s skirtsuit (oleg Cassine etc). Here's next winters' take on it at Christian Dior. It will set you back about 6700 Euros. RTW, that is...

https://www.dior.com/nl_nl/fashion/products/541V70A1166_X4220

Cheerio, Hendrick

[Gerry]

Tailleur style, we were talking about the 60s skirtsuit (oleg Cassine etc). Here's next winters' take on it at Christian Dior. It will set you back about 6700 Euros. RTW, that is...

https://www.dior.com/nl_nl/fashion/products/541V70A1166_X4220

Very classy, though the mini-skirt is a bit incongruous: hems weren't that short in the early 60s (which is clearly the influence for the top). That box-pleat is pure Quant, though she only did them in dresses and not skirts as far as I'm aware:

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O83944/peachy-dress-quant-mary/

The V&A put on a Quant exhibition in 2019, which I attended. I was pretty much the only guy there. I didn't care though, it was fantastic and I was happy as a pig in mud. 

[Gerry]

According to the Montague Burton book (linked above):

The end of the First World War brought an enormous demand for men's clothing . First there was the release of men from the armed forces. Demobilised 'other ranks' were provided with a suit by the authorities, or with a cash alternative with which they could purchase clothing.

I'm guessing that a fair few took the cash option, to avoid looking ridiculous. Possibly why this doesn't crop up so much as is did after WWII? There's a little info here, albeit in a roundabout way (apparently things were different for soldiers being discharged from mental institutions), about the type of clothing issued :

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Forgotten_Lunatics_of_the_Great_War/Sn5HIPNi5vYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=demob+suits+at+end+of+first+world+war+1918&pg=PA213&printsec=frontcover