Front balance and back balance

[jruley]

It's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).

Not at all. I didn't mean to imply that only German tailors, or German drafting systems, were able to correct balance issues.  If it came over like that I apologize.

I'm looking at this as someone without formal training who is trying to learn more about tailoring.  When peterle told me years ago to "add to the front balance" or "reduce the back balance" I was completely mystified.  Dunc was also somewhat confused by these terms in his recent fitting thread.

I think it might be less confusing to English speakers to say "add 1 cm of upper chest length" rather than "add 1 cm to the front balance".  Or "take 1 cm from the upper back length" instead of "reduce back balance by 1 cm".  Maybe someone else has a better suggestion?

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[Dunc]

I'm not sure it makes much difference what you call it... The main problem for novices such as ourselves is understanding the specific method of making a particular alteration. Whether you say "take 1 cm from the upper back length" or "reduce back balance by 1 cm" makes no odds in this regard (at least, not to me) - the question remains of exactly where and how best to do this. There's no shorthand that can compensate for the lack of experience.

For what it's worth, I've dealt with similar issues in shirt fittings, so I understand the general principles, but I also understand that there's more than one way to deal with them, and that the way I'd alter a shirt pattern might not be appropriate for a jacket.

[Gerry]

It's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).

Not at all. I didn't mean to imply that only German tailors, or German drafting systems, were able to correct balance issues.  If it came over like that I apologize.

I'm looking at this as someone without formal training who is trying to learn more about tailoring.  When peterle told me years ago to "add to the front balance" or "reduce the back balance" I was completely mystified.  Dunc was also somewhat confused by these terms in his recent fitting thread.

I think it might be less confusing to English speakers to say "add 1 cm of upper chest length" rather than "add 1 cm to the front balance".  Or "take 1 cm from the upper back length" instead of "reduce back balance by 1 cm".  Maybe someone else has a better suggestion?

Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

No offence taken, Jim, I was merely being pedantic! 

As much as I admire the English tradition, I'm more interested in Italian and French tailoring. And I have no problem with warranted criticism of British tailors (sometimes my fellow countrymen can be a backwards lot!). 

[Schneiderfrei]

I think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts,

I agree Terri, with the, almost, single exception of John King Wilson, the Art of Cutting and Fitting, which is incredibly clear and thorough.

But how diligent would you have to be to discover that book, published just after the WWII, written to give returning soldiers a foot up into the tailoring profession, after so much had been lost in the war. It has been reprinted in recent years with this interesting commentary byt the publisher:

"This work is in the "public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations. Within the United States, you may freely copy and distribute this work, as no entity (individual or corporate) has a copyright on the body of the work.

Scholars believe, and we concur, that this work is important enough to be preserved, reproduced, and made generally available to the public. We appreciate your support of the preservation process, and thank you for being an important part of keeping this knowledge alive and relevant."

The concept of balance must have been transmitted to apprentices, in their training, or imagine the crazy garments that would have walked the streets.

But, in this regard the German system is extraordinary in keeping the methods of balance foremost in print through into modern times.

[peterle]

The Mueller company was founded 1891 as a private trade school, so they work in pattern making and teaching for over 130 years. A long time for continuous developement.
Especially since the Fifties a main target was efficiency in the tailor trade. And solving fitting issues in the pattern stage before cutting is one way to reach this target. Measure twice, cut once.(think of severe balance problems in a yet cut checkered fabric. What a loss of time and fabric)
But this is common to all the German systems I know. Fifties pattern systems like the Lenassi or the Einheits system have incorporated the individual balance measurements in their drafts. And of course there is the contemporary Hoffenbitzer approach who takes individual pattern drafting by measurements to a new level.
I really would like to know, how other continental Traditions (Italy, France Spain) handle this or wether this is a German language area thing.

[posaune]

Well, a discussion which is endless.
I learned drafting after Mueller (ladies).
First you draw after proportional measurements and then you alter this draft with the personal measurements,
You cut the pattern - you spread, you overlapp. As example: Here is a polo shirt for my husband. He has a big belly. So his front length is longer than proportional and his back is rounded - longer as proportional.
I overlapped in front 1.5 cm and I spread in back 1.5 cm. But the balance was about 3 cm.  In the front I took the rest length out at armhole (here 1 cm, rotated belly "dart") and in back I inserted 1.5 cm with a second cut (which opened the back dart).
Now the shirt is balanced and fit his body
lg
posaune

I add a pic of the finished shirt. 

[Schneiderfrei]

I really would like to know, how other continental Traditions (Italy, France Spain) handle this or wether this is a German language area thing.

That would be very interesting, I agree.

It has to be achieved, or think of the fitting disasters that must result, but I've never seen any discussion.

Can someone here on the forum tell how it is done in French tailoring? Or Italian?

[TSjursen]

The question of whether to use direct measures or proportions has been a topic in tailoring since the beginning of time (by that I mean from about 1800, and probably before that too, it is just that we don't know since literature from before that time is scarce.)

If you are interested in this early history I can recommend "The history of the art of cutting in England" (Edward Giles, about 1880s if I remember correctly.) There is a similar history of cutting in Germany from about the same time by Heinrich Klemm if I'm not mistaken, it is mentioned in the Giles book. German language readers may be interested in "Die neuesten Fortschritte der Zuschneidekunst" by Lilly-Britt Weiss, and interesting dissertation on the subject of the development of cutting systems in 19th century Germany.

Balance measures are probably known to all schools of cutting "western" garments all over the world. The idea that English cutting does not use them is incorrect. There are examples in the MTOC, the pocket Cutters practical Guide by FR Morris has direct measure cuts in it, there are many examples in the Tailor and Cutter journal all through its existence. An old system still in use today, Thornton, has both direct and proportionate balance measures. The Cutters practical guide was originally a mixed system with balance measures. They are there in the American literature as well, Hostek is an example.

The point of my admittedly somewhat rash comments is this: Balance measures are fine, but don't be fooled into thinking that you can get any use out of them without experience and an eye for a well fitting garment. German tailoring (and English and American too, at least in the 1800s) was very taken with the idea of "scientific" progress in cutting. In Germany, this is taken to extreme lengths in the 30s continuing into the 60s. It is almost exasperating reading some publications from this era, they are so sure of themselves and sure that everything else is unscientific crap. The fact of the matter is that you cannot mechanically follow a 1930s german draft, as little as you can a modern Müller draft or something from 1820, and expect it to give good results. The tools of the trade are these: The tape measure and your eyes and hands. It is impossible to calculate your way to a good pattern, you can never separate the tailor, the customer, the expectations, the fashion, the subjectivity, the cloth etc. out of the equation. It is a moving target, too: the customer moves during, between and after fittings. One day he feels bad and slumps in front of the mirror. At the next fitting he carries himself erect with pride because of some happy thing that happened that day. Which balance measure do you use then, to eliminate fitting issues at the drafting stage?

[Gerry]

If you are interested in this early history I can recommend "The history of the art of cutting in England" (Edward Giles, about 1880s if I remember correctly.)

Thank you for the recommendation TS. I found it easily on Internet Archive, link here:

https://archive.org/details/historyofartofcu00gile

[jruley]

It is almost exasperating reading some publications from this era, they are so sure of themselves and sure that everything else is unscientific crap.

Just marketing really.  Who's going to write, "Here's my patented snake oil method that doesn't really work?" 

[jruley]

A little example of 19th century "snake oil".

For a number of years I've been making reenactment and living history clothing using Louis DeVere's ca. 1866 "Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System".  In this book DeVere defines "balance" as the difference between the "bust" and "curve" measures; i.e. the lengths of the orange and yellow lines taken from the top of the back seam to the "centre point" as shown in this figure:



(For the curious, the "centre point" is 2/5 of the way along the natural waist from the center back to center front.)

DeVere applies this measure directly in his drafts, as shown here for a body coat:



and here for a vest:



And I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work (at least, not for me).  After the first few coats I found I was better off using the "standard" balance for 80% - 90% of people.  If someone needed a "stooping" or "very stooping" cut it was usually pretty obvious by looking at them.

This is not to say all balance measures are valueless, and is presented just for historical interest.

[TTailor]

Balance measures are probably known to all schools of cutting "western" garments all over the world. The idea that English cutting does not use them is incorrect. There are examples in the MTOC, the pocket Cutters practical Guide by FR Morris has direct measure cuts in it, there are many examples in the Tailor and Cutter journal all through its existence. An old system still in use today, Thornton, has both direct and proportionate balance measures. The Cutters practical guide was originally a mixed system with balance measures. They are there in the American literature as well, Hostek is an example.

I didn't mean to suggest that the British systems don't use balance measures but that the information is buried and not as openly presented as how it is in the German sources I have.

[Schneiderfrei]

I didn't mean to suggest that the British systems don't use balance measures but that the information is buried and not as openly presented as how it is in the German sources I have.

I can only agree. Wir Andern - Mueller system which is an old Rundschau magazine 'competition' is still in print in Germany. Rundschau magazines and those older Der praktische Zuschnitt pamphlets abound with discussions on balance.

I am certainly not intending to point to any superiority here, but I would like to see the equivalent in English, American, French or Italian systems. And I welcome any members to point to specific examples, as it would add greatly to general understanding.

[Gerry]

I am certainly not intending to point to any superiority here, but I would like to see the equivalent in English, American, French or Italian systems. And I welcome any members to point to specific examples, as it would add greatly to general understanding.

I doubt you're going to find much, Schneiderfrei. For centuries trade knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret within the medieval guilds. Although they were disbanded in England in the 18th century - pretty much vanquished by the 1750s - the same mentality persisted thereafter. Even today there are UK tailors who keep their cards very close to their chests.

Possibly the difference in Germany was that Rundschau etc eventually catered to industry, i.e. ready to wear, not just tailoring. So knowledge specific to the craft was shared for their benefit? It's interesting that when RTW became the dominant force in UK clothes retailing (from the mid twentieth century onwards), books on fitting start to appear (Styner & King Wilson). Mere conjecture on my part, though.

The tailor and cutter always published articles on fit. In the old copies I have, it's also common to see ads for their night-classes, correspondence courses and lectures. So the information was out there, it was merely kept within the tailoring trade, as it had always been (the T&C became the nearest equivalent to a regulatory guild over time).

Considering that the medieval guilds persisted longer in some countries on the continent, I can only imaging a greater dearth of published information (the knowledge was still there).

[Schneiderfrei]

I doubt you're going to find much, Schneiderfrei. For centuries trade knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret within the medieval guilds. Although they were disbanded in England in the 18th century - pretty much vanquished by the 1750s - the same mentality persisted thereafter. Even today there are UK tailors who keep their cards very close to their chests.

We have had an Italian member of the forum, who described his experience with his Maestro. He felt that even after 10 or more years, he was not privy to the maestro's secrets.

Possibly the difference in Germany was that Rundschau etc eventually catered to industry, i.e. ready to wear, not just tailoring. So knowledge specific to the craft was shared for their benefit? It's interesting that when RTW became the dominant force in UK clothes retailing (from the mid twentieth century onwards), books on fitting start to appear (Styner & King Wilson). Mere conjecture on my part, though.

I consider that you can see evidence of this in RTW fashion. The latest drafting boook I have from Rundschau is year 2000. The shirt drafts from back then began to produce garments, in terms of bodice fit, that you would see in the more high end RTW, and the likes of Charles Tyrwitt, in the 2010's.

Well overall, that is one reason why I lean on German drafting systems, they are simply accesible.

I began to think that on real reason why the tailoring industry collapsed in many countries was lack of transperency. If you don't understand why it is preferable to wear an individualised garment, you wouldn't even slightly question a bag made in Bangladesh by blind leper infants.