selvage denim trouser fitting

[Chanterelle]

Hi all,

EDITED TO ADD IMAGES OF PATTERN

queuing my unending trouser difficulties with an attempt at a selvage denim pattern. Have been trying to settle on a suitable trouser draft for the better part of two years now, on and off, with no luck. Could use some expert advise, as I'm stuck with drag lines under my bum, or a too tight crotch if I manage to get rid of them. Fixing the tight crotch makes the drag lines reappear. Am close to giving up entirely, and just resigning to making shirts. Help my sanity please.

[Schneiderfrei]

Chanterelle, I sympathise with your trouser difficulties. I'm still not very happy with my own drafting/fitting efforts, but refuse to reverse engineer passable store-bought pants.

I am watching your posts eagerly.

G

Ps. I had a wonderful 2 years picking and cooking Chanterelles in the pacific northwest 22 years ago. Very fun.

[Gerry]

The back fork looks as though it's not wide enough. It's pulling cloth in, resulting in "hungry bum". If you release the tension there, it will probably help with the tightness that's in the front too.

The yoke looks a bit flabby. You could probably do with a little less ease across the seat (once you've released the tension, that is), particularly across the yolk. The yolk also looks asymmetrical. Best to fix the sewing there first, before making further adjustments.

[Chanterelle]

Ps. I had a wonderful 2 years picking and cooking Chanterelles in the pacific northwest 22 years ago. Very fun.

My undergraduate mentor introduced me to mushroom hunting around 2012 and I've been hooked since. I kick off summer with a chanterelle and fresh snow pea pasta with tarragon and sherry. I like to make some handmade macaroni to go with it, like they do here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXgUovKf4s&pp=ygUXcGFzdGEgZ3Jhbm5pZXMgbWFjYXJvbmk%3D

I've realized I'm not much of a mushroom fan, ironically. But there are few better feelings than finding them popping up to pick!

It's also the name of my shirt making 'business' I have...just a handful of clientele...I do custom, made to measure by adapting my base pattern. It took me about 15 or so muslins, but I got a good, adaptable pattern quickly. Fitting myself for trousers has been infinitely difficult. Forward swinging hips and self-fitting is just exhausting...

[Chanterelle]

The back fork looks as though it's not wide enough.

Here is my problem. extending the fork creates excess fabric under the bum, which gives drag lines. So my thought would be to slash and 'collapse' to effectively 'scoop' the curve, but I would expect this to be tighter in the fork. Maybe slash and collapse and extend the fork? What do you think?

The yoke looks a bit flabby. You could probably do with a little less ease across the seat (once you've released the tension, that is), particularly across the yolk.

Ahh, so slash and collapse and extend the fork? What do you think? Do I understand you right?

The yolk also looks asymmetrical. Best to fix the sewing there first, before making further adjustments.

It's symmetrical actually. The left yolk seam allowance is stitched up, the right stitched down, so it appears misaligned. The seam is right on though. Just my mistake there.

[Gerry]

Here is my problem. extending the fork creates excess fabric under the bum, which gives drag lines. So my thought would be to slash and 'collapse' to effectively 'scoop' the curve, but I would expect this to be tighter in the fork. Maybe slash and collapse and extend the fork? What do you think?

As I mentioned earlier, cloth is being drawn into your backside, so your fork is too narrow. Plus there's tightness in the crotch at the front by the look of things. Perhaps the fork needs reshaping too, but whether you like it or not, it needs extending IMO. The excess below the seat is most likely on account of too much ease across the seat - it effectively filters down to the thighs on the back pattern.

One thing at a time. Sort out the fork first, then reduce some of the ease across the seat (how you do that will depend on how you draft/think about things). Any residual problems can be tackled after those steps (posture is probably contributing). No idea what you mean by slash and collapse.

[Gerry]

Also, some of the drag lines you're experiencing are possibly due to your stance being narrower than the set of the legs. You can see in some of your photos that your inside leg is banging up against the inseam, rather than the leg being centred within the trouser leg. This is the downside to this type of straight-side cut: it favours those with narrow hips and a straight stance (feet directly beneath the hips).

[Gerry]

PS you can test this by simply widening your stance to see if things look cleaner (particularly round the back).

[Chanterelle]

No idea what you mean by slash and collapse.

Something like this:

[Gerry]

OK, understood. IMO you need to do the other alterations first before deciding what else is necessary.

Quite a lot of people try to tackle too much at once and it's never a good idea. How can one tell the effect of an alteration when simultaneously making a further two, three or more changes to the pattern.

[Hendrick]

Hi all,

I spent a few years consulting for jeans co's. Denim jeans are not drafted like trousers. The pattern of, say a Levis's 501, is drafted with the side seams as straight as possible and cut with the sides following the selvedge of the fabric. Denim was, originally, woven on narrow looms so economics were important. I effect, the only shaping in an original jean is in the yoke (or riser) and the front pocket. No serging was done on the outseam, only the part holding the pocket lining ($). As yo can see in the image, the midback of the pant is extremely tilted and straight; this gives the 501 its famous "diaper"effect. At the same time, being cut nearly bias, it ad ads more flex to the pant than a hollow fork. I know this is a little extreme but to me 5pockets pants with a trouser cut always look a little unusual. A while ago I posted something about the foldline in trousers, I believe Gerry did also... Here you can see that the foldline is completely disregarded.

Cheers, Henndrick

[Gerry]

A nice overview Hendrick! Yes, 501s were a great fit for me so long as I chose a size too small and stretched them in. Otherwise the seat would sag. And yes, classic jeans followed the earliest, Regency-period drafting models for 'pantaloons', and took a side-in approach with a totally straight side-seam.

These blog posts dissect a couple of classics, and they both show the typical, straight shaping of the CB seam:

https://ikajum.jp/en/blogs/the-study/501xx-47?srsltid=AfmBOooSfc800DyJaENY-FrEoUAneWpbm0DsBVpnFOh82P2rYW7nhFFb

https://ikajum.jp/en/blogs/the-study/wrangler-11mwz?srsltid=AfmBOorjxRO8fZ2I9qgBnWVH0Ua2HifJgQjRdip7yUR6Pb-J69kip21D

Although that's the norm, personally I'd shape jeans (not that I wear them at my age) more like normal trousers. In the mid-to-late 50s the French started styling jeans like that, and Bill Green (he had a few boutiques in London - probably the first of their kind - called 'Vince') copied the look and they became popular in late '50s Britain. So you don't necessarily have to change your approach Chanterelle. As Hendrick points out, the straight CB (unless you eliminate a lot of ease) can be saggy.

However, I would consider repositioning the leg to avoid drag lines if that's an issue, though it would mean abandoning the selvedge idea. Though you'll need to sort out the fork first to make an evaluation, because its tightness is distorting the cloth a fair bit (difficult to know if some of those drag lines are from the fork or the wide leg spacing ... or both).

[Greger]

Was thinking that the back seat seam was gouged out to much. Everybody's seat is different. Function and good looks for the style or fashion. After all, you are not making Mass-production. The yoke can be shaped to change the seat shape. Pulling up bagginess or lowering it. On Levi's pocket facing it is curved at the side seam. I personally would put in a western style front pockets. The belt loops would be arrowhead shape at the lower part of each. If you look at trew patterns, and explanations for making, including shaping with an iron, another style- Jack Tars, sailor pants, can have helpful information. One piece for leg. Is there a benefit to have a seam down the outer leg? Jeans are somewhat the same with an extra seam. The themes are different with somewhat patterns similar.

[Gerry]

Greger is right, the back fork does look a bit scooped. Reshaping may be required, rather than extending it. Leave inlay and experiment.

Edit: unless the toile pieces are different from your draft, through alteration?

[Gerry]

BTW, it's better to sew on a provisional waistband and pin it closed at the front. Because you've used a belt to keep your trousers up, it's possibly scrunching things around the waist, which makes it difficult to properly evaluate the fit. It could be that your yoke is fine. Difficult to tell if we factor in possible creases from the belt.