Off Topic

[stoo23]

When was the last time Apple built a new computer for that matter?

Hmmm, well, strictly speaking, quite a Long time ago,...

In 1996, Apple sold its Fountain, Colorado, facility and started outsourcing most manufacturing to other companies.
In 2004, Apple closed down its last manufacturing line in Elm Grove, Calif.
Most Apple devices today are built by Foxconn and other 3rd party manufacturers and suppliers in China and elsewhere.

Although the Mac Pro, is still assembled in the US I believe.
Mac Pro
Mac Pro - WikipediA

And are consumer computers even computers anymore or just "clickable and swipable devices", perfect for nobodies who don't even own the music they are listening to or worse, their family photos that are floating in the cloud?

Well obviously ... YES, Real computers ARE still being made,..     but even though the Processing Power of Phones and Tablets etc are Impressive, most aren't Computers in the Real sense,... although, it is Possible to run Linux on some Samsung models, instead of Android.

Mind you,.. I remember reading the first review of the Apple Macintosh, in Byte magazine,.. Waaaay back,.. and it described it in their 'Conclusion', as;
"A great piece of Software, with some Hardware 'thrown-In' to Run it with",..         

[Greger]

Are you saying that "computers" and such are just a connection to mainframes?

[stoo23]

Are you saying that "computers" and such are just a connection to mainframes?

Me

No,.. not at all,.. my place is still literally 'littered' with older Real Computers,... Not a Tablet in sight 
I still use my Samsung Smart phone, ... AS a Phone,.. although I do use it to take photos, occasionally (I still Prefer Film lol) and only use it for looking up Google maps occasionally, I have NO Music on it at all and I've sold HiFi and spent half my life in the Music / entertainment industry as an Audio Engineer,..     

I think one Could suggest that many Modern Portable devices might just be functioning as Just a Connection to a Mainframe, as so many people these day seem to want Everything 'in the cloud', (why, I have Zero idea) and it sure seems to be Social Media 'App' central these days ...       

[Greger]

The shady cloud we can get to anywhere with anything.
Don't have anything in the cloud either. Sometimes it would be handy.

[Schneiderfrei]

Funny, I'm just helping my son install a new SSD. I couldn't get Win 11 to install. Said the system - a really pumped up gaming computer - didn't meet the requirements. It's only a few years old. Just a push to cycle everyone's prefectly adequate machinery.

My problem with the Cloud is - It's not a cloud, it's someone elses computer!

[stoo23]

it's someone elses computer!

Exactly !!


SOD Win 11, ... stick with Win 10 Pro 

[Greger]

it's someone elses computer!

And I never trust strangers.

[jruley]

Mind you,.. I remember reading the first review of the Apple Macintosh, in Byte magazine,.. Waaaay back,.. and it described it in their 'Conclusion', as;
"A great piece of Software, with some Hardware 'thrown-In' to Run it with",..         

Well - what Apple "got" (then and now) is the software is the whole point.  A "real" computer without useful software makes a nice doorstop or boat anchor.

[stoo23]

Hmmm well, I think one's 'definition' of exactly What a REAL Computer is may vary.

With the original Macintosh, the 'System' was completely Hidden and inaccessible from the user. There was NO actual Programming language available for it, as the Hardware and Operating system was Not available to the end user, so,.. like Byte reported, it was, simply a Box containing hardware, to run certain pieces of pre installed and provided software, like a word processor's etc.

The Computer industry, was founded on Large scale computers that did Not intrinsically,... Have Software per se,... they had Operating Systems and computer Languages to Write 'Custom' Applications with.

The original Apple Macintosh,.. was NOT even remotely like their Previous products, (those that had actually Put them 'On the Map' as such, like the Apple II etc), by providing relatively Open System configurations, Application Software and Programming languages,.. the Macintosh, gave users ZERO Choice and ONLY did what the Installed / Provided software allowed you to do.
It was Not extendable or customisable, in ANY way,.. in Real computing terms,.. it was Not one and couldn't be Programmed, so (in effect) was Not what people regarded as .... a Computer   

[jruley]

The Computer industry, was founded on Large scale computers that did Not intrinsically,... Have Software per se,... they had Operating Systems and computer Languages to Write 'Custom' Applications with.

Who is your customer?  Users, or programmers?

Way back in 1978 I took my FORTRAN course on a 'real' computer.  Using punched cards.  After typing out your deck, you took it to the reader.  If the reader didn't blow your cards all over the room you were ready to sprint to the staircase to reach the line printer on the fourth floor.  If your job hadn't timed out, you got about three pages of header and footer and maybe half a page of useful output.  Any graphing of results was by hand.

Did my master's thesis project on a slightly more sophisticated machine using a terminal with a dial-up connection and primitive plotting capabilities.

I still have a brace and a box of bits that belonged to my grandfather as well 

[stoo23]

Who is your customer?  Users, or programmers?

  Well, obviously, it Can be BOTH, if you so design the device to allow it 

Around the time the very First IBM PC was about to be released, the company I was working for wanted to purchase a couple of Desktop computers.
Due to their interest and customer base, we had become aware of a certain brand of rather clever high end Japanese SORD computers.

Because of the engineering development work, we were envisaging, the brand new SORD M68k, was the seemingly appropriate machine to choose.
SORD World magazine - Feb' 1984

It had 2 x CPU's, a Motorola 68000 and a Zilog Z80A and could run in 8 or 16 bit modes.
When running in 8 or 16 bit mode (using the Z80), it used Sord's own propriety OS and could run their slick compilable Basic, or a variety of other languages available in that era 

When running in 68000 mode, it ran a custom version of CPM and used the Z80 as it's I/O handler !!

It could also run a 'Native' Sord Basic graphics extension language sub system, called SGL and had Full 16 bit colour graphics and a high res' monitor,... it made an IBM PC look like it was from the dark ages LOL

In a time when the 'Word' was that the Japanese made great hardware but their software was 'Shyte', the Sord, came with one of THE Best Spreadsheet/Relational Database programs I have ever used, called PIPS.
We wrote our Own accounting software using PIPS, as it could be extended to include custom Programming, using a Basic like command language, that allowed customisation of the basic (already excellent) PIPS programme !!

It also came, with possibly THE Best Word Processor I have ever used,.. you could probably have Published a book using it but it was so easy to use and was of similar quality to a Wang or Wordperfect WP,.. in a word,.. Excellent.

It also allowed us to create a Suspension Mapping and design system, used initially by some guys running F3 and Formula Fords out here,.. (all very Hush-Hush, at the time) and also do all the initial Patent applications for a very clever 'Stratified Charge' style combustion system (prior to Honda's), that the Government was very interested in

So,.. as suggested, the Customer can be both,.. as can the machine .... even back then,... although obviously later than your experiences but I had only recently left VW Australia and they were still using a Huge IBM Mainframe system, that took up a 3rd of the ground floor of the building 

[jruley]

  Well, obviously, it Can be BOTH, if you so design the device to allow it 

So why aren't they so designed?

Follow the money...

Somewhere on my shelves or in a box is one of those math handbooks with tables of trig functions and present a future values accounting for compound interest.  Haven't looked at it in years.  If I need  a trig function I get out my calculator, or just google ("sine n degrees) on my phone.  All of the interest rate formulas are in Excel.

One thing I was taught in that FORTRAN class was "structured" programming.  Instead of coming up with your own bizarre method for a "DO loop", here's a proven block of code that does the job.  String these blocks together (or use them as subroutines) and you can really cut down on debugging time.  Maybe at the expense of greater memory requirements but Moore's Law has largely removed that constraint.  Nowadays smart people have taken that idea to the logical conclusion and we have MATLAB.

Sixty-four years of observation leads me to agree with Scott Adams that most people are idiots.  And almost everyone is an idiot about something  .  Most people running PC's today have absolutely no business trying to write their own software, and the available apps are light years ahead of what all but the most dedicated geeks could achieve. 

[Greger]

Most people shouldn't be writing their programs. Fair enough. Problem. Some companies need someone to write programs. Avail programs do somethings very well. What about no program that needs to be made. And of course the variations. A friend of mine does specialized programming. They are trying to out do their competition. They certainly don't want their competition having this ever changing program that meets their ever changing needs.
Wordperfect I liked. Microsoft is garbage. It is nice to have programs adaptable by a local programmer. Fixed is nice for some people. Both methods bring in more money.

[jruley]

Like everything else, it's a trade off.  Most new car models in the US can't even be ordered with a manual transmission.  Many "real" photographers sneer at automatic exposure and autofocus systems.  But my "keeper rate" for airshow photography really went up when I started using them  .

It may be nice having your own custom tools, but often you can do the job just as well using standard tools in a different way.

Microsoft has the lion's share of the PC market, so they must be doing something right 

[Greger]

Airshow photography. That's pretty neat.