First try at a waistcoat

[DrLang]

I agree with the need for a hair more length in the front. After putting this on several times I think it could even go for half an inch. That's just based on where it covers the waistband of the trousers.

Reshaping the shoulder seams, I am finally starting to grasp how I can deal with the bubble here. Still not perfect, but an ironing should help.

I've included a photo with the buttons undone.

might be worth looking at pinning out a bit between the back scye side seam as there also seems a bit too much width there. You would have to scoop out the back armhole to suit of course.

Could you elaborate on this a bit more? I kind of understand what you mean, but I am also not really sure that I understand exactly where you are pointing me to. Attached.photo of the back pattern might help.

[Schneiderfrei]

The unbuttoned gapes just that littl bit. Peterle will know better than me, but I suspect a bit more front balance will help that.

Back darts are now recommended.

I think the shoulders look good, what is it that you are still looking at?

[Greger]

When sewing the facing on you baste it on first. The facing is on top and towards the bottom you lift it and put a slight roll in. When you sew it and press the seam open and the facing underneath it should have a slight curl going under the belly, instead of just falling. Along the bottom towards the point a slight bit of the same trick might work.

[Gerry]

Rory Duffy (former Savile Row tailor) has a very good video series on waistcoats. Definitely worth a look at (if you haven't already seen it):

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/thehtasbwaistcoat

If you subscribe for a month, it works out a cheaper than renting individual episodes.

And a couple of freebies worth watching (the more approaches/info the better), but Rory's course is the best I've come across:

https://vimeo.com/ondemand/bespokewaistcoat/801194326

https://youtu.be/Rhnqi8chrtI?si=3ZLzOSOB5-1h2f1M

[peterle]

It is so much better now. shoulders and neck fit  quite good now.

Back: The back is cut qite straight. You could increase the darts, but shift them a bit (1,5cm?) towards the center. I would aslo test if the waistline and the back strap are positioned at your true waist. To me it seems they are a bit lower than your natural waist. You can feel your natural waist: Spread off your thumbs and stroke your hands downwards at your lateral back. you willl feel the smallest spot. The strap should be positiond there, otherwise it can bunch up the whole waistcoat when tightened.

Front: Yes, you could lengthen the front. But I´m not a fan of long waistcoats. I think they throw off the classical proportions and look awful when sitting. To achieve a clean look  and have a nice transition it is more important to have pants that are cut high enough and held up accordingly (suspenders). It´s of course a matter of personal taste.
The fit is a lot better now. I see a slight diagonal fold/wave from the lowest armhole point towards the pocket, especially at your right side.  Usually a dropping shoulder is paired with an outward hip on the same side. Because this is your hanging side  and I think I can recognise that the button row is pulled slightly towards this side i presume that´s the reason for this fold.

[DrLang]

You have a fairly hollow back which creates unnecessary length and width at your back waist. Yes, the back darts need to be further round to the CB. I also think you could move your back notches up a tad thus passing the back down a bit to lose the extra length in that part. You will need to pin that out to see what the amounts would be.

Now that I am pretty much down to refining the back on this piece (the rest will need to wait for waistcoat #2), I think that I can see what you are referring to. I'm having a hard time understanding your suggestions for dealing with the extra length.

This is a case where I am realizing that I failed, once again, to notch the waistline on these pieces. That said, I am admittedly clueless as to whether that is even the right place to notch. I am having a hard time understanding how moving the back notches up would move the back down. I think that I am simply lacking the necessary vocabulary here.

This process has been fascinating. I will never look at my body the same way again.

[Greger]

Something about Balance is what sliding the back up or down on the side seam is about. To do this proper the back needs some inlays.
Crooked and straightening is shifting the front shoulder somewhat sideways on the shoulder seam.
Clarence Poulin, King Wilson and David Carlin (Alteration Of Men's Clothing) books explain these with diagrams. Poulin also shows where to put most inlays.
The back dart is to close to the sideseam. My suggestion is don't cut darts until you know where they belong. Patterns hopefully get seams close to the right place.
Pockets are put in after the garment has been fitted. The pattern location and angle may not be the best. Buttons and buttonholes are made and sewn on often after the final press. Beginners make many practice pockets and buttonholes.
Accept the overwhelming. It is easier that way. You come away with better garments.

[Gerry]

A couple of short, elementary fitting-demos for testing a pattern with a toile.

https://www.deofsf.com/04-UTS/Videos/3-04-UTS.mp4

https://www.deofsf.com/04-UTS/Videos/3-05-UTS.mp4

Notice that the sides aren't even joined initially. They have to hang where they need to. If the back were deliberately or accidentally slid higher than the front at the side seams, i.e. out of balance, and sewn, then hopefully you'll understand that this would create a ruck/gathering of excess cloth. The side seams would need to be released, allowing the back to fall where gravity takes it. That is what is meant by passing down the length (excess).

[DrLang]

After reading Clarence Poulin's work on this topic, I think that I finally understand the way to make this adjustment (still confused about moving the notch though). I managed to squeeze out a 1/4" shift of the back down by taking it in even more at the top, though now I feel like I may have exceeded a critical limit there. After that I had to pinch out 3/4" at the back to get things to start looking smooth. And it looks to me like I could even go more? That's such a huge shift at this point, I don't know if it's even feasible. I could move some of it upwards into the shoulder seam, and then lower the arm hole on the front by the other half so that I can shift the back down further. I'm afraid that altering the arm hole much more than that will start to look off from the front.

[DrLang]

Please pardon some rambling on this update. I was getting a bit frustrated experimenting trying to find how much excess length needed to be removed and where. After getting frustrated making little progress with just pinning, I completely opened up the sides and started pinning them together, shifting the backs down more and more. This gave minimal results.

So I started thinking about my extreme hollow back (now realizing this is why I have such a pot belly) and looking at other waistcoat drafts and how people correct for a hollow back. I realized that some drafts have quite a bit more shift in the CB seam between the top and bottom than the draft that I used. I have been hesitant to touch this seam because I recall reading once before that it is generally advised to not mess with this seam when making alterations, but this seemed like a good excuse to experiment. So I basted up a new center back seam that would have it match a draft published by Clarence Poulin. The result looked like a significant improvement to me.

There was still a lot of room for improvement, so I basted up an even bigger change to the CB seam. At this point, the very center was starting to look pretty smooth and there appeared to be some sagging to either side. From here I pinned up 1/2" at the outer end of each shoulder. This has messed with the backs of the shoulders a bit, but the sides no longer seemed to sag. There was still some excess bulk in the back though. So I extended the darts up another 2" or so and made them maybe 1/16" deeper at the waist. Now here is where I am.

Obviously there is still room for improvement and, quite frankly, I'm not very confident about the approach that I took. Nevertheless, I think a press (which has not been done yet) would smooth this out a little bit more.

[Gerry]

Well done for perservering, you're getting there and the back is looking much better. As you say, a press will help.

Something odd is going on around the neck and shoulders though. At a guess, I'd say you have a little too much length going into the base of neck. The cloth is bunching/gathering there. It's also possible that the the back is being pulled towards the front at the shoulder ends, creating those horizontal drags. Or the shoulder angle is now too sloped - might need to release the shoulder seams and smooth those folds of cloth into them.

Difficult to say without a cursory press and other photos - I always find 'long distance' diagnoses difficult (so much easier to see what the problem is in person).

As peterle suggested, the straps would be better at the natural waist.

[Schneiderfrei]

I guess you realise that the darts pull all that extra length in the back right up to the body.

[peterle]

Merry Christmas everyone!

Yes, it can be very frustrating to fit one self. it´s much easier to pin on someone else.

My first thought is: the backstrap is there to gather some width, so no need to remove all the width with darts and get the waistcoat thight.

My second thought is, to remove length in just the shoulderseams does not work. We all tried it, we all failed. Lenght (and width) must always be removed where the excess is located. In your current versions there are some serious ripples in the neck shoulder area wich are new. I like the version of post 61 much better.

so my recommondations would be:
Back to version of post 61.
To remove some width, you can increase the darts a bit, and now you know where to place the darts and where your natural waistline is.
To remove the bulging length, im pretty sure it has to be removed along the natural waistline. Pin a horizontal fold at the waistline from dart to dart across the center back removing about 2cm and fade it out from the darts to the side seams. As you learned you have hollow back. The body in this area is concave and this fold allows enough length at the side seam and enough shortness at the center back. When the pinnig works, we can talk about how to integrate the alteration into the pattern.

[DrLang]

Well I have been at this since last night and for a good chunk of today. I pulled the pins from the shoulder and the back is now pretty conforming to my body. Probably went way too far, though it does feel very... comforting? I kinda like it, though it probably doesn't leave much room for an excessive meal.

As peterle suggested, I pinned out a bit at the waist. Only about half an inch. That didn't look like it did much, so I moved the pinning up to where the bulk of excess material looked to be. At least I feel like I have the beginnings of a body coat.

[peterle]

Well, I think it looks better now and the superfluous length is removed. The little folds seem to by mainly from the basted seams now.

I would locate the horizontal fold in between your versions, because I think there is your natural waitline( not easy just from pics). The backstrap should be installed at the same line.

About the tightness: When you make a waiscoat very tight like a bodice it will not move much on the body. especially when seated it can look a bit odd and be umcomfortable. Second your waistcoat is from linnen, a summer material. Wearing very tight clothing in summer isn´t that comfortable also. Of course it is a matter of personal preferences.