About the armhole hight

[Enzo]

Hello everyone,
As I mentioned in my introduction post I am struggling with a jacket pattern.
I have lots of questions but I'll start with the armhole height.
I've read and heard a lot about the armhole height being an important issue for the fit of a jacket and the beauty of the garment.
However, I have never found anyone to explain what precisely "high armhole" means when you are looking at pattern paper.

To make it clearer I'll put some pictures of what I've seen as high armholes:





So much for the aesthetic objective. I now put you some diagrams of my patterns with my intuitions of cut to obtain this high armhole:

Classic armhole, the lowest point of the armhole joins the chest line (but in fine once the seam is done the armhole seam is 1 cm lower than the chest line).



Test design of a high armhole, the lowest point of the armhole is positioned 1.5 cm above the breast line (finished seam the armhole seam is 0.5 cm above the breast line).



The other points of the armhole, notably its width, remain unchanged (as I believe that this parameter controls the drape of the chest and back and looks rather little at the height of the armhole but if I am wrong I would be happy to learn).
Now my questions are: is my high armhole design correct?
Is there a standard on the armhole height in the sense of a classic value to place the lowest point of the armhole in relation to the bust line? Is my value of 1.5 cm correct?
Should raising the armhole in this way have an effect on the sleeve draft?
Do I have to change the shape and line of the armhole in a way I don't realise in order to achieve a high and comfortable armhole?

I hope I'm being understanding in what I'm trying to achieve, and thank you for the time you've spent reading me and for (I hope!) your answers.

Enzo

[Gerry]

I'm by no way an experienced cutter, so I shall defer to the more educated here.

However, to my knowledge, Mr Astaire's suits had gussets under the arm. They allow for a really high armscye. I have no experience of this, but it's a typical 'modification' for musicians and dancers who need extra mobility. The following is an adequate demonstration of the basic principle:

https://youtu.be/GqFiVww0p84?t=567

Obviously, there's no need to do this unless mobility is an issue (are you a violinist?). In which case, don't use photos of Fred as a benchmark?

Chest line is typically the lowest point of the armscye in many drafting systems. Inlay and seam allowances are then marked, so the seamline is still on the chest line; but if it's taken a little lower by design because the original scye was uncomfortable, then that shouldn't be a big deal. There's usually enough ease in a sleeve head to manage slight deviations from the original draft.

Again, buyer beware of my advice! 

[posaune]

The Armhole height is best measured. I learned to you take a straight paper stripe and you shove it under the armpit of the customer, straight up till it touches. Then you lower the arm and you bend the paper stripe to the spine. look that it is horizontal to the ground. Set a pin. You measure straight down from the 7. vertebra to the pin and voilá you have the Armhole height. It has nothing to do with the chestline.  Now you add ease to this measurement depending how much you wear under your jacket a.s.o. (for a tight one it is 1.5-2.5 cm)
lg posaune

[SO_tailor]

Hello Enzo!

Here's a good video on high armholes below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlqWXj6TTgM

To find the correct armhole depth, most tailors take a measurement called "Depth of Scye" (Scye is a shortened word for "arms eye").
To take the measurement, first wrap the tape around the nape and then draw in the ends of the tape to the back (tape 1). Place a pin where this point meets. Then take the tape and measure from the nape to the pin (tape 2).

Here's a good illustration on how to take this measurement:

[Gerry]

The Armhole height is best measured. I learned to you take a straight paper stripe and you shove it under the armpit of the customer, straight up till it touches. Then you lower the arm and you bend the paper stripe to the spine. look that it is horizontal to the ground. Set a pin. You measure straight down from the 7. vertebra to the pin and voilá you have the Armhole height. It has nothing to do with the chestline.  Now you add ease to this measurement depending how much you wear under your jacket a.s.o. (for a tight one it is 1.5-2.5 cm)
lg posaune

I use the tape measure method, as outlined by SO_tailor, to measure depth. However, as you mention, additional ease has to be factored in below the armpit: using the exact measurement can be as restrictive as a low armscye. Once the pattern is adjusted for this additional depth/ease, we're typically at the chest line. Which is why many drafting systems simply use that point as the base of the armscye. I do myself these days. 

[Gerry]

Actually, Fred Astaire's suits may not have had gussets. I forgot about the following technique (scroll down a little):

https://www.parisiangentleman.com/blog/the-armscye-height-secret-a-crucial-detail

Either way, both methods allow for a higher armhole than would normally be comfortable.

[Enzo]

Thanks a lot for all these informations, I will try the tape method as soon as possible.
I have a few questions about the subjects you've discuss.

Firstly, as the height of the armhole is related to the angle of the shoulder line according to the English tailor's video, how do you find the right angle for this line, are there any proportionality or measurement techniques?

Then on the draft presented in the article of Parisian Gentleman, in this example the bottom of the armhole is not a curve but a straight line, is it necessary to cut the back part of the sleeve according to the same straight line not to have any problem of relation between the sleeve and the armhole?

Also about the gusset, I'm not a musician (fortunately for my friends' ears, by the way), but I would have liked to be able to increase the mobility capacity in my jackets as much as possible, it's something I've always found rather nice to have jackets where the body only moves a little when the arms are waving.

I thank you again for all your answers

[Gerry]

Firstly, as the height of the armhole is related to the angle of the shoulder line according to the English tailor's video, how do you find the right angle for this line, are there any proportionality or measurement techniques?

In the late 1940s, Michael Rohr came up with an ingenious method of measuring shoulder angle. It has been borrowed by at least one, more recent book on drafting. I use a variation of the method, substituting in a different measurement to give back and front shoulder seams of equal length (with the original method, there's a slight discrepancy).

Basically, you treat the tip of each shoulder like a pair of coordinates and separate measurements must be taken for front and back (and for each side of the body if there's asymettry). For the front, we want the intersection of two arcs: the length of the shoulder, along its top, from the side of the neck to the very tip of the shoulder; and the tip of the shoulder from the centre-front at the waist. A tape measure and ruler, or two rulers, can be arranged to find the point at which these two measurements intersect. This is the position of the shoulder tip, relative to the side of the neck. Joining these two points forms the correct shoulder angle.

The same is done on the back, only the second measurement is taken from the centre-back at the waist. If shoulder pads are to be used, measurements are taken with these in place.

If might sound convoluted, but it's not; and provided the measurements are taken carefully, exact shoulder angle is easy to draft. From what I gather, many use aps on their phones to calculate the same angle. No idea if that's any easier, but I'm sure you'll get many other suggestions for methods.

I can't help you with gussets/pleats under the arms, I'm afraid. As mentioned earlier, I have no experience of either. Hopefully someone here will chip in (I'd like to know myself).

[Schneiderfrei]

All of these responses have been great.  Thank you posaune, I have always had trouble with the calculated Ah.

Is it pitching a low ball to point out that the higher the armhole height, the less riding up of the whole jacket when you raise the arms.

Ready to wear garments are made to accomodate a vast range of postures and so they have woefully huge armscye measurements.

G

[Gerry]

PS if you're doing your own measurements with the method I described, you must hold the tape measure to the tip of the shoulder using your opposite arm. If you try to hold it with the arm on the same side as the shoulder you're measuring, your shoulder will raise up, giving false readings. Putting a belt round your waist gives an accurate 'zero point' for measurements.

Not impossible to do the back yourself (the tape measure can be trapped in place under a pin, for example), but ideally get some help.

[Gerry]

Ready to wear garments are made to accomodate a vast range of postures and so they have woefully huge armscye measurements.

A while ago I stumbled across a post on another forum by a guy who works in ready-to-wear and made-to-measure. He posted a formula that they use to calculate the depth of the armscye. It would give me an armhole three, whole inches lower than the current position I use; which is ridiculous. 

[Gerry]

PPS, if using the tape-measure method to determine armscye depth, you can take your own measurement from the front, instead of the back. The tape wraps round the front of the neck and is taken under the arms from the back, to rematerialize at the front. The tape is pulled taught, and a pin placed at its top edge at the centre-front. Measure down from the base of the neck/top of the clavicle to the pin to ascertain the armpit line on your draft.

Not recommended that you do this if measuring others. The tape measure has a choking feel at the front of the neck when pulled taught. Not dangerous or anything, but uncomfortable.

[Schneiderfrei]

Gerry that sounds about right.

[Enzo]

Thanks for the informations about the way to use the take method in the front I was struggling a lot tring to do it in the back onto myself.
About the gusset I've seen that some hunting jackets use this technique to allow the best arm mobility when the owner shoots a bird or extend the arm. In France it's quite rare to do hunting garments I think, but I now a shop in Paris who does it, maybe I will be able to explain me how to deal with that, maybe in England it is something that tailor do more, but these are just guesses.

[Gerry]

English hunting jackets tend to have pleats at the sides of the shoulders, round the back, which allows one to reach forward. If you look at Kirby Allison's "From Suit to Shoot" series on youtube, you'll see what I mean. I have no idea if additional modifications are made under the arm to increase/aid mobility.

https://youtu.be/jk7PzuSq1uA?t=907