Problem I have With the Tailoring Trade

[SO_tailor]

I realized I didn't clarify enough things on this post so I will revise it eventually. but for the mean time I'm going to keep it blank. Thanks and Cheers 

[hutch--]

 

[SO_tailor]

he he he...

[TTailor]

It cannot be taught!
In my experience, some older tailors who trained as apprentices from a very young age seem to feel that since they went through that experience, you would have to as well in order to learn. There seems so be the feeling they suffered so you have to as well, and since things have changed in society, then you cannot possibly learn what they have learned. A little way of glorifying their lived experience.🤷‍♀️

My other opinion about that, is they can use the particular system they were taught but not necessarily understand all the theories about why it works, or what they do almost intuitively to make it work.
Distilling down technical processes you know in order to teach someone is challenging. It requires that you really analyse why you are doing a process and it is often brings up the possibility that there is a better way. Plus, it's not just the technical information, its explaining what you have learned to do intuitively, it's how to teach someone to be artistic, to have an eye, and some people can teach it and some cannot, and some people can learn that and some cannot.

[SO_tailor]

It cannot be taught!
In my experience, some older tailors who trained as apprentices from a very young age seem to feel that since they went through that experience, you would have to as well in order to learn. There seems so be the feeling they suffered so you have to as well, and since things have changed in society, then you cannot possibly learn what they have learned. A little way of glorifying their lived experience.🤷‍♀️

My other opinion about that, is they can use the particular system they were taught but not necessarily understand all the theories about why it works, or what they do almost intuitively to make it work.
Distilling down technical processes you know in order to teach someone is challenging. It requires that you really analyse why you are doing a process and it is often brings up the possibility that there is a better way. Plus, it's not just the technical information, its explaining what you have learned to do intuitively, it's how to teach someone to be artistic, to have an eye, and some people can teach it and some cannot, and some people can learn that and some cannot.

That's a good point right there. I do agree that it's hard to teach people to understand the trade since there is so much other questions asked by the next generation like "why do we pad stitch the canvas?" or "why do we add darts?", etc. It does at times sound like they don't understand their own system, and therefore would be hard to teach those questions. I also agree with your other point that it seems like a way to glorify their "suffering". It gives some insight on why they may treat the topic as joining the army! Very interesting point of view.

[Greger]

As a dying art it has faded tremendously. The 70s-2000 has been difficult. Some of these tailors stayed in business by doing alterations. One company in England was teaching their children mtm and not bespoke. The forums on the internet has spiked an interest since 2000.
Some tailors only want to do high street.  Some refuse fashions.

[Greger]

"The process of crafting a 100% hand made garment is quite challenging. It cannot be taught; it must be performed by high-end bespoke tailors with years of on the job training and expertise." (—Process; Alan David Custom, NYC)

Did you notice "Job Training"?
Being an art not everyone is an artist, even with training.
A suit is more than same cloth. And not all same cloths make a suit.

[SO_tailor]

"The process of crafting a 100% hand made garment is quite challenging. It cannot be taught; it must be performed by high-end bespoke tailors with years of on the job training and expertise." (—Process; Alan David Custom, NYC)

Did you notice "Job Training"?
Being an art not everyone is an artist, even with training.
A suit is more than same cloth. And not all same cloths make a suit.

I agree with your point on that Gregor, it's true that not every person is as 'artistic' as the other. However I think I should add that everyone is artistic and creative, even if they don't show it.

[Greger]

There are different kinds of art. Literary. Music. Industrial Art (fine furniture). Book Binding. To name a few. Doesn't mean that you are an artist in all of them. But you can appreciate them. Lesser arts would be various mass-produced. (#1) Some tailors will say that if you don't design your own pattern systems, that makes you not an artist, so you can't be a real tailor. (#2) Using someone else's system some think that's ok. (#3) Buying pre-cut patterns others think that is in the ballpark. Using #2 and #3 is using someone else's art. There is also the hand skills. This one wielder was in awe of another wielders work. Said it was art. He didn't say that about the other wielders. This particular wielder has art in mind and heart and, it was showing up with his hand movements when wielding. This one book I was reading the author and owner of the business said that certain parts of the coat needs to be pressed by an artist. The other parts of the coat it doesn't matter who presses those parts.
Now, there are people who make very fine garments with the right training and artist patterns, handmade for the customer. Handmade also includes using various machine work. Those who don't include machine work should distinguish themselves (doesn't mean that they are very good at it, though).

[SO_tailor]

That's a good point as well  , do you have any other thoughts or opinions on my post that you'd like to discuss? I'm all ears!

[hutch--]

Something that I have seen in the software area that I work in is the willingness of many to try and inflict their particular prejudices on other people who are themselves learning to write software. It is almost exclusively the wrong way that turns people off and drives them away.

Its something like "we did it the old slow sloppy hard way, you should suffer the same way". It has wasted a lot of people who just gave up in disgust. Instead of imposing old clapped out techniques that were boring and truly uninteresting, put the basics into the hands of folks who are interested and let creative genius take over and you get a reasonable number of people who end up knowing something and who write usable code.

Its an antisocial approach that if its already canned, its out of date. Something like "if everyone is doing it, it can't be useful." Instead of treading down the same old path to obscurity, brain in gear and mouth in neutral and do something that both works and is original.

[Gerry]

Traditional apprenticeships, where they exist, are very much a leftover of the medieval guild system. There's a lot of protectionism amongst masters.

It's been this way for centuries, and it's one of the things that many apprentices complain about. They never seem to be trusted with the knowledge they crave. With respects to tailoring, out of frustration many apprentices seem to take external courses in cutting and simply make stuff in their own time. That part can't be taught: evaluating incoming information by experimenting with toiles and samples and drawing conclusions/finding working methods. If you don't go through that experimentation, then arguably you'll never truly understand why you're doing something.

There are also some practical things that are done by eye and/or feel. Again, that comes with 'experience' (a euphemism for making mistakes until you get something right). I'm still at that stage, but gradually honing my skills.

Thankfully, with the advent of the internet, attitudes are changing and information is being more widely shared.

[Greger]

Believe in drafting there is/was a lot of symbolism. Wonder how many tailors know this anymore.
Here is a story. Back in the 60s and aunt bought me a button up shirt. Wore it to my grandparents place. Granddad started pointing out cuts and cloth placements with each one having persific purpose. This is about cultural fitting.  Not body fitting. He understood more about why I was wearing that shirt than I did. Boys ten years earlier wore different shirts for what was prevalent for that time. He himself was my age over 60 years earlier, in a different country, a different language and some cultural differences, not to mention, different expectations. He must have pointed out more than 15 things about that shirt when all of a suddenly it all came together. And he would have gone on. Styles and fashions of the past had more connection to there purposes than the mindlessness of todays Styles and fashions that don't connect as they used to. I think college education in clothing is not grounded so, can't make the cultural connections.

[Hendrick]

In the age of disposable products, peoples' interest in crafted products is clearly triggered. As soon as the mood of the moment influences the way something is crafted, the end result will be "time stamped", usually referred to as style. Agreed,  Greger that when you must  immagine an endresult (that is where you start designing). Also, don't forget that Picasso was an accomplished painter before he became a cubist and as well as Mondriaan befor he painted "boogie woogie"...  I think also that we are influenced by  images from movies, celebreties and such that we tend to fix on a level of "polishing" that simply misses the "devine imperfection" of crafts which is exactly what people want from it.

[SO_tailor]

In the age of disposable products, peoples' interest in crafted products is clearly triggered. As soon as the mood of the moment influences the way something is crafted, the end result will be "time stamped", usually referred to as style. Agreed,  Greger that when you must  immagine an endresult (that is where you start designing). Also, don't forget that Picasso was an accomplished painter before he became a cubist and as well as Mondriaan befor he painted "boogie woogie"...  I think also that we are influenced by  images from movies, celebreties and such that we tend to fix on a level of "polishing" that simply misses the "devine imperfection" of crafts which is exactly what people want from it.

I agree Hendrick, celebrity's have a big impact on the trade. Just curious to everyone who read my post, what does everyone think about corporate attire?