Padding canvas flat and inserting darts after - opinions?

[TSjursen]

Hello, long time lurker from all the way back when the C&T forum was still in operation here,

I have been watching this guy's videos with interests lately: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKAbjcq-2wnpmSbIRq0vhMQ, really nice to see someone go into so much detail about the rationale for every small step of the way through the process. I don't agree with everything he says, but he's clearly a very talented tailor.

Anyways, in these videos he uses a particular method of making up the canvases which I have also seen lots of examples of on instagram. I have never seen this method advocated or even described in any book that I know of, but it obviously has some merit and seems to have a certain sway with younger tailors trained in the Savile Row tradition (although that is just a hunch I have from trawling IG for pictures of other tailor's work).

In short, the method has you assemble the canvas with the haircloth, domett and all, and padding it flat on the board before any darts are placed in to give shape in the chest. Only after the padding is complete is one or more darts taken out by cutting straight through all layers and butting the cut edges together, laying a cotton tape or a strip of lining both over and under the cut and then machining quite thickly over the cut.

(As an aside, I never realized how the slightly irregular zig-zag line of straight stitching was acheived until I saw a video of it: The pressure on the foot is made very loose so that the feed dogs don't grip well, and the fabric simply pulled sideways while sewing. Seems slightly crude but it sure works, although I would not recommend trying it with a modern finely tuned high speed industrial unless you want to make more work for your local sewing machine technician.)

Here is a picture taken from IG. What's your opinion on this method? At first I dismissed it as somewhat sloppy, but after thinking about it for a while I'm not so sure. It goes against what I've learnt about staggering the cuts on the canvas (and forepart), and avoiding cuts through the weft of hair canvas and haircloth especially. On the other hand the guy in the video linked above makes a point of placing the cut in the canvas directly under the front dart, which I guess would effectively prevent the cut showing on the outside in thin fabrics while also giving it some more support to prevent it from breaking into an edge rather than a smooth transition. It also makes it quite easy to baste the forepart to the canvas in perfect harmony.

[Gerry]

Ask a brief question in the youtube comments for the video? He might reply. I know very little about coat making and am still working through his vids, but I'd love to know his response (if you ask). 

[TTailor]

There are many ways of doing things, and there is also the saying, just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I will try to have a look at his videos to see.
First impressions from the photo you included is that it almost seems overshaped, but it may be the angle of the photo.
I think one of the most important aspects of a chest canvas is that you have a very smooth surface against the cloth. If you have a technique that creates ridges in the canvas, thats not good.

[TSjursen]

The canvas in the photo is for a very full chested figure, it was just to illustrate how the cuts are made through all layers at once instead of every layer being made separately, basted together and then pad-stitched.

Ill put a comment on the next video he posts to see if he has any interesting viewpoints on the pros and cons of different methods of doing this.

The thing is I am wondering if there is any reason why I should not want to do this, it seems to be a much quicker way of achieving the same effect. However, it implies that rolling the canvas over the finger while padding is unnecessary, and I have never seen a book on tailoring not tell you to do this. On the other hand I see a lot of tailors pad the canvas from the inside and still roll it over the finger, which makes shape but in the wrong direction. I have handled many vintage coats made in this way, and most had a tendency for the canvas to push itself inwards towards the breast rather than outwards in the same direction. In full chested coats this is very noticeable as the middle of the chest right above the dart takes on a flat and limp appearance. I remember reading an article in Der Schneidermeister or maybe Rundchau from the 1930s about this very issue and I think the conclusion was something like "there is no consensus among the experts regarding the right or wrong way to do this". I'll post it here if I can find it.

[TTailor]

I think if one were to pad stitch the layers first then add in the shaping, it would be beneficial and much easier to roll it very slightly as you stitch.

Yes, it is awkward to  create the shape in the main canvas then pad stitching the inner layers to it.  You have to work inside the curved shape. it is awkward  to hold and is counterintuitive. If you roll it the other way it goes against all the principles of creating a shape.

Machine stitching the layers in, on the other hand, is easy peasy because you can work inside the curve and cup the layers as you go.
Use a thinner thread and a large zig, or in the factory they have specialized machines which use an elongated straight stitch.

There are techniques that could stand to be reexamined in all aspects of tailoring. Sometimes we are wedded to ideas that evolved because of certain limitations of technology, sometimes because no one wanted to take the time to rethink the traditions. Just because it was done like that 100 years ago doesn't mean it should be followed blindly.

[hand-m-made-garments]

I am sure Reza will answer your questions. I am following his work with great interest and had contact with him several times. He really has a mission to make knowledge accessible to all. I follow a video series on coat making. It is done similar. I did it the "German"way you are familiar with, when I started coat making

[spookietoo]

Okay, I have GOT to plow thru all of this guy's videos!

Terri - I laughed out loud when you said it looked over shaped, because my first thought was, "I could fit my girls in that canvas!"

Suddenly, I'm excited to tackle this "fit issue" again.

This discussion reminds me of the "Two Pot Pot Roast" story:

Lady is preparing dinner as her neighbor sits in the kitchen visiting with her. She takes a roast out of the frig, cuts it in half, seasons both pieces identically, places each in it's own pot and places both pots in the oven.

Intrigued, the neighbor asks, "Why cut the roast in half, season it the same and cook it in two pots, when one larger pot would do?"  Woman stops to think and says, "I honestly don't know. It's just how my Mom always did it." With curiosity, she calls her Mom and asks her why 2 pots? Mom answers, "That's how my mother always did it, but I really don't know why." So they get Grandma on a three-way conference call, explain how they both have always used her 2 pot method for pot roast and they ask her why they're using 2 pots.

Grandma dies laughing and it takes her a while to recover enough to answer. "Sweetheart, there were so many of you kids, I HAD to cut the roast in half because I didn't own a pot large enough to cook a roast that would feed 10 people!"

It's not always a bad thing to question the old ways.

[Greger]

If you want you can loosely pad stitch the canvases together and then cut darts for shaping and add more shape with an iron. One method I read doesn't even need darts put in. 20 - 30 years ago you could buy pre-made canvases and shape them how you wish. You can place the main canvas on the straight or the several bias. If I remember correctly one bias method is best with no other canvas.

[Despos]

This is an interesting and timely topic since I have recently been experimenting with various methods of making a canvass. Did not know and had never seen this way of making a canvass until about a year ago. Tried it a couple times and can’t say I like it or don’t like it. Haven’t reached a conclusion. My thoughts at present; would use this method if using an alternative material that is softer than haircloth. Would not use this method if using conventional haircloth.

What I like about shaping the hymo and haircloth separately, then layering and padding the chest. 
Because of the firmness and strength of haircloth the cuts in the haircloth are different from the hymo. When I baste the haircloth to the chest I like a bit of vertical fullness in the haircloth at the center of the chest to avoid bubbles in the canvass.  Seems counter intuitive if you consider the shape of the layers but it works. Like to roll the chest horizontally over the half moon or press board when basting the layers to create shape. Same as how you roll the lapel when padding the lapel to create the roll.

Another thing I see on IG and youtube videos. Starting the chest dart in the hymo from the waist line. I always started at the pocket. Haven’t reached a conclusion on this either.
Interested to hear thoughts about this.

Links to a few videos about making a canvass from a couple tailors in Japan. Both tailors have YouTube channels and videos making a jacket from start to finish in real time.
Sorry, didn't know how to insert links only. Now you have the video posted.
https://youtu.be/flxqpBwDisE
https://youtu.be/2kCFpJI9E3U
https://youtu.be/9X4kvWekzZk

[TTailor]

Incredibly precise process, interesting insertion/placement of the wedge in the shoulder from the neck and i wonder what the glue is that he uses in video 2, in the little pot and in the third video green bottle.

Its difficult to tell how firm that chest canvas ends up being with the amount of stitching in it.

Interesting for sure, thanks for sharing these.

[Despos]

Incredibly precise process, interesting insertion/placement of the wedge in the shoulder from the neck and i wonder what the glue is that he uses in video 2, in the little pot and in the third video green bottle.

The shoulder wedge is very unique. Haven't tried this but am curious enough that I will some time.
he does show all the tools and products he uses in these videos. Have seen more than one type of glue used in various videos. In that part of the world it is common to tack linings or cloth together with glue instead of basting.
It's great to see how others work. Appreciate his openness to post videos of his work

[TTailor]

I will have to watch through the longer video tomorrow.
The glue is interesting in that he irons ovr the pieces I assume to set the adhesive.

What about the stitching? At one point it looked like he was freehanding the piece under the foot, maybe with feed dogs lowered?
I have usually seen the horse hair chest piece layer cut so the hair is more perpendicular to the to the roll line, his is cut not quite at that angle, but perhaps a bit of leeway here is a good thing.

It is great to see other people's process. So different now than trying to find information thirty years ago!

[Greger]

is it glue or wax?

[Gerry]

Thermoset glue would be my guess. I googled around and there are at least two Japanese products that fit that description: konishi-fabric-glue; and kawaguchi-fabric-glue. An iron can be used with both to speed up drying. Can't remember which, but one comes in different forms (glue stick vs tube etc).

https://youtu.be/2p4vdNqu4Fo?t=28

https://www.seweasy.my/japan-kawaguchi-fabric-glue

It's not inconceivable that he's transferred one of those glues to a pot, for easy access. In other Tailor Manabe vids, I've also seen him use a 'rubber glue', to prevent fraying.

[TSjursen]

Incredibly precise process, interesting insertion/placement of the wedge in the shoulder from the neck and i wonder what the glue is that he uses in video 2, in the little pot and in the third video green bottle.

The shoulder wedge is very unique. Haven't tried this but am curious enough that I will some time.
he does show all the tools and products he uses in these videos. Have seen more than one type of glue used in various videos. In that part of the world it is common to tack linings or cloth together with glue instead of basting.
It's great to see how others work. Appreciate his openness to post videos of his work

Very interesting to see different techniques used, never seen this type of wedge before. I have experimented with another type of wedge lately to get an effect I have seen in some vintage German coats. They call it a "hollow shoulder" in the image below. Somewhat like a pagoda shoulder but with all the hollowness put in near the neck to make the coat really sit into the round between shoulder and neck. Amazing how much you can do with the shape of the shoulders in a coat by different manipulation of the fabric and canvas, and this is without any padding at all! I did not believe the illustration until I found a vintage coat that had been made with this type of shoulder. It requires a fabric that takes well to stretching though.