High standing Napoleon jacket collar pattern help

[Johnnyincubbias]

Hi, although new to this forum; I have many questions regarding the Napoleon high standing collars used on so many films; including a large feature used on Elvis Presley's garments in the late 60s and 70s. I have spent several years investigating how the pattern for the collar might have looked flat out, and although the collar itself is thick and shaped like a standard shirt collar, it is the stand which boggles me. It is difficult to see whether they were originally cut on two  for the under collar as there is no images available of the underside of them but the top collar is one piece joined with the stand itself then constructed with today's oat jackets. I bought many books which show the collars close up, and they are one piece on the top collar section. They seem to be thicker in the stand on the front edge and the and pick stitched in place along it all the way to the top of the stand, however those pick stitches are not all the way through as the top collar section on the inner neck at the front is just not stitched through. Close inspection seems also to have a piece of boning the length of the opening of the front into the stand.

My problem is I cannot locate any draft or block of this type of collar, from any manual I can locate. And as this collar rather high standing, the stand itself is difficult to see if it is like the stand of a shirt collar as in curving upwards, and the collar attached to it to give it a curve toward the neck at front, or another shape which gives it the same appearance of curving toward the neck. Also how would it be drafted or mad out of one piece as in stand and collar fall together rather than in two seperate pieces?

This has baffled me for over 20 years, and I would like to solve the mystery of how it was done.

Thanks for any assistance
Jon

[TTailor]

I have always done collars like that in two pieces.
The stand had a different shape than the fall.
Structurally the stand needs a good support structure.
I suppose one could try a two piece under structure and a one piece top fabric if you had little difference in the shales and the fabric could be manipulated.

[A. Ferrell]

MTOC Vol. 1 has a stand collar draft, diagram 67 section D, E, and F (E is shorter; F is taller). It does not have a different shape for the under collar and top collar (I would assume the draft is for the under collar, and you would cut the top collar to fit as in a typical collar). Keep in mind that the under collar in this case would face the neck, and the top collar would be the outside--opposite from a typical collar.

[posaune]

Maybe a pic from the type of collar would be good. As Napoleon's collar is an uniform collar from The Regency (?) period, Elvis had several types and styles.
lg
posaune 

[Johnnyincubbias]

Sorry for the late reply, been at work with the Australian bushfires. Thanks to the recent replies for this  collar, still confuses me although I am trying to understand things, and my lack of materials by which to   Find a pattern to draft from is a little difficult,
I have a few pics of the collar, but it is one piece top collar, however the under collar can't be seen as no photos exist of it upturned.

Any further help would be appreciated.
Thanks jon

[Johnnyincubbias]

I apologize I sent one photo of something other than what it should have been mistake.

I have a few other pics here for more clarity

[peterle]

I hope you´re all allright, down under members! I always think of you when watching the news.

When drafting the collar probably this post helps: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=640.0

Of course you have to adapt it a bit: To get the bottom line of the stand collar, follow the "normal lapel" instructions. Let the lapel fold/break line meet the center front at the chest line. When you finished the bottom line, measure the desired stand width (approx. 7cm) from k2 to k3. k3-k4 should be a straight line and must be perpendicular to k2-k3. This part is called "the fall" in the instructions, but will be the stand in your draft. Form the front edge of the stand in harmony with the center front line. Now you have the stand. To construct the fall, elongate the the line k2-k3 and apply the fall width (a bit wider than the stand) from k3.  The fall  is wider than the stand at the front edge. Connect the center back of the fall with the front point with a slightly curved line. this line starts perpendicular to the center back line. In any case make a toile of the collar.



Construction: especially in the orange background pic you can see the outer stand collar is a seperate piece. It needs serious stiffening to hold all the rhinestones. Uniforms with similar high stand collars had an inlay of a very heavyly glued linnen to keep it´s shape. Maybe you can replace it with modern pelmet inlay material. I´m also pretty sure, there is some boning in the front edge all the way from the end of the zip to the upper end of the stand collar.

[Schneiderfrei]

Thank you Peterle, I for one am all right.

We are swathed in smoke, and my wifes plane home from Melbourne was cancelled last night due to smoke.

It does give great pause for reflection on the state of the environment.

G

[hutch--]

Sydney where I live has been a bit smokey but it has clear up over the last few days due to some light rain. We could do with a few days of heavy rain to help out the guys fighting the bush fires but that is the luck of the draw with weather. I am just a little pissed off about all of the people jumping on the climate change bandwaggon with the bush fires when the bush fires before 1900 were just as bad. The real problem has been bad government policy that locked up the national parks and abandoned the fire trails that made controlling bush fires possible.

[Greger]

The USA has some of the same type of problems. New scientist with new forest management that clearly are not working. It's time these guys stop dreaming and go back to what works. What? A trillion dollars worth of lumber has been lost. Pay checks to loggers and mill workers has value. These "scientists" have no value and should pay their wages back. Lost lumber is waiting another 40 years for the next crop. It's a huge loss. These scientists should be blamed for GLOBAL WARMING. If mankind is part of the cause of global warming these scientists should take a  lot of the blame.

[Greger]

About these high collars various styles of them were popular in the past. Some libraries have old books that maybe of some help. These old books don't explain much. When new ideas came tailors had to figure out how to make them. The tailors who came up with the best methods probably earned more money. One layer of canvas, or two. Perhaps one layer of canvas and pocketing. And, of course, usually, Melton or felt. Melton is a woven felt. How these are pad stitched... Shaped with an iron. The ones that Elvis used maybe weren't made the best way, but plenty good for his usage.
In your travels if you come across a real bench tailor some of these guys can show you methods in a few minutes which can take hours of explaining with words.

[Johnnyincubbias]

Thanks guys for the assistance, these collar type and the way it sits on his suits, compared with the pattern drafting I have tried in the past, have come out a little shady. I only ever saw one of the actual suits once when displayed here in the late 90s. I got several snaps of the collars from a variety of angles but the camera wasn't that good. As they were a costume for Elvis, I doubt that there was too much emphasis in drafting the pattern for it, but rather the pattern of the studs on the design itself. They do make similar replicas today, but apparently they took my query as somewhat more of a breach of trade secrets, they only have, and was told exactly that. Their costumes are similar, but the collar doesn't sit the same as in the originals, probably based on the fact that even though theirs are tailored,   they are not tailored like that of a suit as in canvassed and padded, and especially they don't have the boning piece up the v front. Reinforcing the collar to stand etc.
it it difficult to imaging what the collar would look like flat out, but the fall of it looks like a shirt collar only higher around. The stand is somewhat the issue, I have found, if the collar and stand as in the full top collar is drawn as one piece, the curvature of the roll line is somewhat distorted meaning the stand turns outward with the fall scrunched together, but if the stand is shaped curved downwards, it preserves the roll-line, yet the  fall won't sit as it should. If the under collar is two pieces and the top is one piece with the stand attached it seems to do the same thing. Pulls away from the neck without the bend towards it as in the original collars. I have a lot of drafts I have made over the past years, however what was so easy to think of for them, is just plain troublesome for my brain to think it had so much technique to achieve such a distinctive look. See I don't know if the original had a curved roll line, to which the fall was attached or if it was straight, or what the stand may have looked like on a draft. That is what's boggling me. The. The tailoring itself was I gather like a suit. With a few added features etc.

As for the bush fires I am in Melbourne, and the epa let us know that today was the only day where the air is not hazardous to your health to breathe without a mask. People here have been warned to stay inside if not necessary to go outside. To limit their physical activities outside, and to seek medical advise if they start to feel ill. Personally, the smoke in the air dries your airways out, to the point that you can still smell it, taste the air even through a mask.  Now today we've been notified that due to all the fire retardant used to put them out that it has  entered the waterways, poisoning the water and  the fish in it. We are advised not to drink water outside, unless bottled, as well as not to eat any fish in the area about it. In some areas the flames are over 50 feet high, producing its own weather, and stretching as far as the eye can see. With tomorrow's heat climbing back up, and the smoke blanketing the city. The sun arose this morning deep red in color, inso much that you could look at the sun with naked eye, and it did t hurt your eyes.

It truly is Armageddon to look at.

Jon