Hi all!
Just drafted a sloper from Gareth Kershaw's "Patternmaking for Menswear." Instructions were pretty clear and I think it's a good start, however it obviously needs adjustment. Right off the bat it seems that I need to lower the armhole and lower shoulder point. I have forward sloped shoulders, so I'll need to adjust for that but I'm not sure how. From the shirt that I drafted a few months ago I know that I also need to raise the back neckline a half-inch. I haven't adjusted the balance yet either, but if memory serves I need to add .5in to the back balance. Is there anything else in these pictures that points to any problems? I've included a photo of the draft as well, apologies for the quality as I drafted it on brown craft paper and it doesn't show up very clearly in photos.
If it matters, I plan to mainly use this as a base for some casual jackets and overshirt type garments, as I already have a shirt draft that I'm happy with.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mz3SP8BW/IMG-20210128-191230.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mz3SP8BW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/V51RxQWf/IMG-20210128-191252.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V51RxQWf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0K80DDyM/IMG-20210128-191311.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0K80DDyM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yv4f6pM3/IMG-20210128-191837.png) (https://postimg.cc/Yv4f6pM3)
My first advice is, when you want to use the pattern for an overgarment you should also wear something underneath when fitting. Overgarments need more width, a wider armhole, neckhole and a longer back and front balance than shirts. You should also close the front compeletly to the top to get a relieable result
As Peterle said.......
and do away with this big s.a. 1 cm is enough and don't clip them in. Only when you found a tightness there.
Before you proceed further you should take your armhole down on the right side. Shoulder is hanging - I suppose about 1 -2 cm. More Back length for a rounded back, prominent shoulder blades and a forward neck is needed. After this alterations and buttoning up your front close and you will see what to do next to the front.
lg
posaune
Question: why do you not use your shirt draft?
Krudsma, in the home sewing world the rounded upper back is called "high round back" alteration. You can find that adjustment on many blogs. It's a very common alteration for those of us with aging spines. The back neckline should sit right at the vertebra notch. Put your finger on the topmost bump on your spine (where it meets the neck). As you move your head up and down your finger should settle into a hollow. That's where your collar seam should be. I'm not a fit expert, just an avid home sewer.
Thanks you all! I will check out that alteration. To answer your question posaune, I thought it would be worth having a basic sloper to use as a starting point for any top garment I wished to make, rather than modifying my shirt draft over and over. I'm also new to the drafting process and figured I could use the practice :)
Krudsma,
The use of the draft will produce a better rusult and you have the bodice/sloper in the same process.
Krudsma, I mean, if you have a good fitting shirt you just take over the alterations made there. These will be the same because most of it are originating from posture - even if the shirt has more ease and is easier to fit.
In looking back at the shirt I made with my draft, I'm not totally happy with how it fits so I want to press onward with this sloper. I've made quite a few adjustments to it and it seems to be fitting much better - the biggest issue now seems to be these large drag lines from my (prominent) shoulder blades down to my hips. Any advice on how to fix this?
(https://i.postimg.cc/ctq5Gnq1/IMG-20210206-151244.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ctq5Gnq1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RNBbPKQX/IMG-20210206-151248.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNBbPKQX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QwK421B/IMG-20210206-151253.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QwK421B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/146jcJ68/IMG-20210206-151257.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/146jcJ68)
It looks much better now.
More experienced folk might comment on the shoulder blades?
Where was the sloper from?
Thanks Schneiderfrei! The sloper is from this book from 2013:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ny5JnwJx/Screen-Shot-2021-02-06-at-5-34-59-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/Ny5JnwJx)
I found a free PDF of it online. It's got some nice clear instructions for a lot of different garment styles - I hope to use it to make some chore coats but if I get brave enough I might try an overcoat.
Ok. that's cool.
G
I have two questions:
There is no horizontal dart in the back yoke seam in your pattern. Did you add one?
The paper pattern seems to be less wide at the hem line than at the chest line. Is this true or just tromp l´oeil?
This sloper actually doesn't have a yoke, that seam is just for the .5 inches that I added to the back balance. Some of the garments I want to make won't have yokes so I didn't want to include one in the sloper.
As for the hem, I think the picture is just skewed. The chest and hem measurement are the same.
Ok, I see.
I think you need even a bit more back balance, add another 1,5 centimeter.
This will make the back armhole gape a little, because without a yoke seam and without a center back seam you have a completely flat back pattern for a not so flat back. This can be addressed by darting out a part of the gaping amount with horizontal darts from the shoulder bone tip (where the folds end) to the armhole. By dart manipulation this horizontal dart can be transformed to a vertical shoulder dart.
Is the sloper very loose across the chest?
Thanks! I'll give that a try. It doesn't feel loose in the chest, overall the front fits very comfortably. Does it look loose?
I asked, because I was playing with the thought wether your shoulders are a bit forward. This would cause a looser chest and a tighter back, because the width distribution between front and back would be a bit different to the norm body.(stretched back width, crunched chest width).
Long story short: I was considering wether it is enough to add some length to the back or if it´s necessary to address the width also.
Just forget it, when you feel comfortable.
Ok, added 1.5cm to the back balance. It does seem to help the shoulder blades and side seam balance, however as you said it makes the back armhole gape a bit. Any way to mitigate this without the use of a yoke or a dart? I saw a suggestion somewhere that you could "sweep" the excess up into the shoulder seam, but I have a suspicion that this would effect how the back neckline sits.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sjw1HSCy/IMG-20210208-160910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sjw1HSCy)(https://i.postimg.cc/R6YpS9YL/IMG-20210208-160915.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R6YpS9YL)(https://i.postimg.cc/9z4NxR48/IMG-20210208-160921.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9z4NxR48)(https://i.postimg.cc/dZTHDpPP/IMG-20210208-160927.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dZTHDpPP)
Doesn´t look bad, does it?
You want a basic pattern for several garments. The only aim for such a pattern is to get the perfect fit. Threedimensional forming can only be done with darts and seams. That´s what a yoke seam is for. That´s why I strongly recommend to do a yoke or at least the horizontal darts in your basic pattern to get a good fit and get rid of the gaping.
Once you have finished your basic pattern and nailed the fit it will be the base for developing a specific pattern for a specific garment. Only then it´s the right time to decide how to deal with the dart. For example it can be shifted towards the shoulder seam as a whole or partly and for certain fabrics it will be possible to ease it in so it gets invisible.
But You gonna need this darts in your basic pattern.
I see. So I should add the dart now, include it in my basic pattern and then figure out how to apply it to each specific garment, is that right? Other than the dart, would you say I'm ready to move onto the sleeve? Or is there anything else I should address in the body first?
Thanks for the advice!
In that stage I would pull the back shoulder up say 1.5 cm taper to nothing at neck and pin out a 2 cm dart in the center of the back armhole till there where your shoulder blades are. As you need only to pin it, nothing lost. And try the garment on pin it close with just one pin at bust level. the pin at belly high look a bit suspicious. Look if the Cf will stay closed.
The right shoulder looks okay for me the left needs a bit more length.
lg
posaune
Thanks posaune. Here's with the back shoulder adjustment:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cr0XyhTH/IMG-20210209-122024.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cr0XyhTH)(https://i.postimg.cc/ZCHjTNDL/IMG-20210209-122030.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZCHjTNDL)(https://i.postimg.cc/YvSRjS5B/IMG-20210209-122036.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YvSRjS5B)(https://i.postimg.cc/jDkXfbTw/IMG-20210209-122041.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jDkXfbTw)
And with the 2cm dart:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gLdqpcV5/IMG-20210209-121711.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gLdqpcV5)(https://i.postimg.cc/sGcPgFK2/IMG-20210209-121717.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sGcPgFK2)(https://i.postimg.cc/kDdkGxfr/IMG-20210209-121722.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDdkGxfr)(https://i.postimg.cc/tZFt8nxW/IMG-20210209-121728.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tZFt8nxW)
Those both appear to help, although I think 2cm might be too much, the armhole feels quite tight. 1cm might be a good compromise. And good call on the second pin, as the front does gape open a bit. Is that a result of the stomach being too tight, or the chest?
Quote from: krudsma on February 10, 2021, 02:54:22 AM
I see. So I should add the dart now, include it in my basic pattern and then figure out how to apply it to each specific garment, is that right?
Yes, exactly. Thus you can adapt your pattern to a certain style, to the weave, material and pattern of your fabric ecc.
You´re not wearing somthing underneath when fitting, Do you aim for a shirt pattern now?
The new pics:
The darts are much too deep. A 2cm dart means you take out 1cm on each side of the dart center line, (makes 2cm totally) Seems you took out 4cm totally. The darts are also too long the tips should end 1 to 1,5cm before they reach the apex point of the blades.
Concerning the pulled up back shoulder I´m not sure. For the right shoulder Posaune will comment, wether the desired effect is reached. For my taste it seems to pull the front backwards a bit to much. On the left shoulder it seems the necklines of front and back don´t match, that will disturb the area massively.
Ah, you're right I did 4cm. So 2cm should be perfect then.
Edit: Ok, that did the trick. I'm very happy with the fit now, other than the fronts swinging open slightly. Should I just release a bit of the lower front seam allowance, or is this caused by a different issue?
(https://i.postimg.cc/m11jmz2x/IMG-20210210-114638.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/m11jmz2x)(https://i.postimg.cc/w3n07V09/IMG-20210210-114644.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3n07V09)(https://i.postimg.cc/G94XLNPM/IMG-20210210-114649.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G94XLNPM)(https://i.postimg.cc/QH5S5Ty1/IMG-20210210-114655.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QH5S5Ty1)
The darts look good now and the back looks ok.
But there are severe stress folds from the pin towards the shoulder bones now at the front. I´m quite sure they are caused by the " pulled up back shoulder". I would undo this alteration to verify.
A gaping front can have different reasons. One is, the hem is simply not wide enough. Measure your body circ at hem level (wearing pants) and compare it to the width of the sloper´s hem (center front to center front).
Here's with the shoulder put back the way it was:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tn1x8kCr/IMG-20210210-170600.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tn1x8kCr)(https://i.postimg.cc/WttgDN6M/IMG-20210210-170605.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WttgDN6M)(https://i.postimg.cc/rKr4JfHs/IMG-20210210-170611.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rKr4JfHs)(https://i.postimg.cc/DmDsL9BR/IMG-20210210-170617.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DmDsL9BR)
I think part of the stress folds are because of forward shoulders. I have a hard time telling if the shoulder seam is falling in the right place - everything I've read says it should fall on the shoulder bone, but I can't tell which part of my shoulder that is. Is it hitting in the right place, and if not is someone able to circle it for me?
way better. you have put in 3 cm in the back and taken out 2 cm at back armhole now. It seems balanced.
Look at the left side: See how your belly stands before the bust. The line from the highest shoulder point parts the arm in center. At the back we see that your right shoulder is more down as the left and here is a little fold . maybe armhole must be cut depper or the shoulder angle must be a bit more. Then the left side front at the shoulder I see a fold which originates at the shoulder point. my impression is that you should outlet the point a bit. In the side view I see the the front rises a bit at the hem. But this I see only at the left side and the CF left curves to the outside more than the right. So it mayb be that the left shoulder pulls the CF to the out side and/or a bit more cm is needed at side seam. Peterle, what do you think?
lg posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/VJ7d4YLt/shirtKu.png) (https://postimg.cc/VJ7d4YLt)
Looks a lot relaxter in my eyes. For the diagonal pull at the front I would like to see a pic with the neckhole pinned close. The 9th feb. pics don´t show this drag lines (but done without undershirt). probably the shoulders a bit hollow. with a slightly protruding front shoulder. my solution would be: drawing a parallel line about 3cm to the front of the shoulder seam and pin out a fish form dart taking out about 1cm in the middle of the line, fading to 0 towards neckline and armhole. When it works I would take this line as my new seamline. It also makes it easier to install a bit more space for the shoulder bone when needed.
I´not yet sure about the fronts. Maybe the hem is just not wide enough.(hips wider than the chest) I´ll wait for the measuring results. Maybe it is a forward belly posture, although I would expect a different direction of the creases. Your idea - the left shoulder pulls the front diagonally - sounds quite reasonable. and would explain why the right front (the low shoulder side) is not affected. Maybe just making the left shoulder angle a bit less steep will do the trick? Would be an easy alteration and is worth a try.
Thank you both! I'll give those a try today and post the results.
Hi peterle, I am loving kicking back in Australiain a more relaxter way than when Mr Trump was president. ;)
Peterle (or anyone), would you mind showing me an example of a fishform dart? I've googled around and can't seem to find it, it's not a term I've seen before.
Fishform just means double pointed, like the dart in the back of a shirt.
Schneiderfrei, that´s how we stabler geniuses do a great job. ;D
He he.
:D
I've drafted and added the sleeves. Now I'm noticing that the shoulders feel very tight. You can see this in the drag lines from the shoulder to the chest pin. Is this a problem with how I've cut the sleeves, or with the bodice?
(https://i.postimg.cc/zL6Ndppv/IMG-20210303-170359.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zL6Ndppv)(https://i.postimg.cc/qhKTWnZL/IMG-20210303-170405.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhKTWnZL)(https://i.postimg.cc/T5qX3xx5/IMG-20210303-170410.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/T5qX3xx5)(https://i.postimg.cc/y3zHKdMz/IMG-20210303-170416.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3zHKdMz)
It looks to me, as if you have to rotate the sleevehead forward and maybe also give a little more room in the sleevehead. Looking at your older pictures the shoulder width seems to be cut rather narrow, which might add to it. also did you let out the shoulder a little bit as posaune suggested? Might still be necessary a tad more. But lets see what the professionals say ;)
It´s hard to say with the neckhole unpinned. Please take pics with closed neckhole.
Will it be a shirt sloper or an overgarment?
Sorry, here's the pics with the neck closed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gXqg1tDD/IMG-20210304-111947.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gXqg1tDD)(https://i.postimg.cc/0rPW7xkH/IMG-20210304-111953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0rPW7xkH)(https://i.postimg.cc/jnxMT63r/IMG-20210304-111959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnxMT63r)(https://i.postimg.cc/Wt89nKtp/IMG-20210304-112004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wt89nKtp)
It looks like I still have some work to do... sigh...
The fronts are now gaping open at the belly again. The back seems to fit well, and I did slightly increase the right shoulder angle because of my dropped shoulder, which helps the weird wrinkle that was forming there.
As for the sleeves, let me give some context. I started with a slightly higher cap, had some severe wrinkling and pulling unless I rotated my arm about 30° backward:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LhJqCg8q/IMG-20210224-194337.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhJqCg8q)
Thus, I shifted the sleevecap so that it hangs more neatly. The blue line is the sleeve as it is in the picture above, the red line is how it is now. I have no idea if this is the correct way to adjust sleeve pitch, but it seemed to make sense to me:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tYf83fmZ/IMG-20210304-105945.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tYf83fmZ)
I also tried drafting a sleeve with a wider and shorter cap, which produced intense wrinkles (seam is inside out but the sleeve is facing the correct direction):
(https://i.postimg.cc/HrXvQLyR/IMG-20210302-171636.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HrXvQLyR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVyjphwy/IMG-20210304-105916.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVyjphwy)
I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do next. Clearly there's still some problems to solve in the bodice. It isn't tight at the armpit so I'm not sure why it's tight at the chest.
And to answer your question peterle, the patternmaking book I'm using has you draft a basic "top sloper" that can be adapted to either shirts or overgarments. I plan to use it for a shirt-style jacket but it would be nice to be able to adapt it to shirts as well.
As always, all of your input is greatly appreciated!
Looking at your earlier pics (minus sleeves - see link) I'm not seeing much in the way of seam allowance around the armholes. In which case, you've possibly 'robbed' some of the material from the bodice. Hence the tightness?
https://postimg.cc/5QwK421B
That's an interesting thought but I don't think so - I've got the seamline marked on both the sleeve and the armhole and they're matched up pretty exactly. I can feel my shoulders getting "squeezed" by the sleeves which makes me think that the sleevecap is wrong somehow.
I do have some questions:
Are You aware, that the sleeve drawings show a left and a right sleeve? The front of the blue-red drawing is at the right, whereas the front of the red drawing faces to the left.
Does the sleeve seam meet the side seam under the arm after you changed from blue to red?
Do you have a lot of ease in the sleeve head?
In any case the pic with the arrows shows a much more relaxed sleevhead and there seems to be no pulling at the back and chest. I think you should proceed with the blue version and it´s fuller crown. Changing the shape of the crown will reduce the folds.
I want you to look carefully to the sleeve heads in your pattern book and compare their shapes with your drawings to get a feeling for crown shapes.
Thanks peterle! To answer your questions:
Are You aware, that the sleeve drawings show a left and a right sleeve? The front of the blue-red drawing is at the right, whereas the front of the red drawing faces to the left.
I am - I had already cut and attached the blue/red sleeve and I wanted to compare it to one with a wider sleevehead, so I cut that one for the other sleeve.
Does the sleeve seam meet the side seam under the arm after you changed from blue to red?
It does
Do you have a lot of ease in the sleeve head?
I think there's an appropriate amount - My actual bicep measures 11" and I made the sleeve 14" at the armpit level
In any case the pic with the arrows shows a much more relaxed sleevhead and there seems to be no pulling at the back and chest. I think you should proceed with the blue version and it´s fuller crown. Changing the shape of the crown will reduce the folds.
I think you're right, and comparing the pics again now it seems that I've completely screwed up where the crown should be. I'll go back to the blue version, but could you elaborate on how I can change the shape of the crown to reduce the folds?
I want you to look carefully to the sleeve heads in your pattern book and compare their shapes with your drawings to get a feeling for crown shapes.
I'll go back and check them again.
Sorry, my fault: when I asked for the ease I wanted to know wether your cap seam line is longer than your scye seam line.
Ahhh I see. No, they're exactly the same length.
Ok, Thanks.
First I would elongate the shoulder seams for about 1 to 1,5cm. Elongate and reshape the armhole lines to the new point. (The left shoulder seam placement looks good to me, but the right seems a bit to short. But make them both equal for symmetry).
The sleevhead: Starting with the blue version I would shift B a tad to the right and draw the section from 4 to B fuller. Thus the line gets steeper at B. I would continue the line in the run and scoop out the lower (concave) curve more.
I recommend to walk the armhole line with the tape measure and mark the spots on the cap line where it meets the dart, the shoulder seam and a chosen point of the front armhole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rwWxx2s/shoulder.png) (https://postimg.cc/0rwWxx2s)
To illustrate what I think Peterle means: Look here. No fabric for your forward shoulder. It pulls. and you see the shoulder is not long enough. The right shoulder is shorter than the left and so the sleeve
This is not easy to tackle for a beginner.
lg Posaune
I just looked at the original draft in the book - I really see another sleeve cap as the one you showed us. It is much more shaped. I think you should just draft again as shown and then modifing it, reshaping the cap for a forward shoulder. You cut it horizontal at the upper /3 and shove the upper cap part to the front. You glue it together and reshape it. This will release more width quicker in front and give more length to follow from the back.
That makes sense, I'll give that a try. Thank you!
Ok, I've re-drafted the sleeve, and then performed the forward shoulder alteration as Posaune instructed. Let me know if this looks correct (blue line is before the alteration, red is after):
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QdGhqYB/Screen-Shot-2021-03-08-at-1-36-59-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/5QdGhqYB)
This is how it looks when attached - some work still needs to be done. I believe I need to add some ease to the sleevecap, and potentially adjust the pitch of the sleeve. Excuse the length - I'm running out of material so it's obviously too short.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nM4wsm9W/IMG-20210306-171910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nM4wsm9W)(https://i.postimg.cc/mtVXjGwN/IMG-20210306-171915.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtVXjGwN)(https://i.postimg.cc/3kRLbbfM/IMG-20210306-171921.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3kRLbbfM)(https://i.postimg.cc/3d3f2wgx/IMG-20210306-171927.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3d3f2wgx)
Compare this to the bodice without a sleeve attached - it seems to fit well, which suggests that the issues are only in the sleeves:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dZ6B588t/IMG-20210304-170109.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dZ6B588t)(https://i.postimg.cc/6ThJkgcT/IMG-20210304-170114.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6ThJkgcT)(https://i.postimg.cc/ppXbRCcC/IMG-20210304-170120.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppXbRCcC)(https://i.postimg.cc/5jJWkbwZ/IMG-20210304-170126.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jJWkbwZ)
Interested to here how you all think I should proceed. How does one adjust the pitch of a one piece sleeve? Do I just remove 1cm from the back sleeve seamline and add it to the front?
Its not just the sleeves wich are different, the first series is with tshirt the second without. Uncompareable. Better you decide and stick with it.
What do you mean by "adjusting the pitch"?
The cap is full enough in my eyes, but he horizontal line on the cap is dramatically falling towards the front. This indicates, the sleeve is not inserted right, it should be horizontal. Did you do the marks I recommended in the last post? (Point 4 of your cap does not necessarily have to match the shoulder seam).
Sorry, that line is leftover from when I had cut the sleeve earlier. It doesn't correspond to this new draft. The front and back pitch points match so I believe it's inserted correctly.
As for adjusting the pitch (probably not the right term), I just mean that the rotation of the sleeve doesn't seem to match that of my arm - my arm is hitting the front of the sleeve and pulling the whole thing forward, causing the wrinkles all along the front and restricting mobility.
Will take some new pics without a t-shirt later this evening.
Edit: Ok, new pics without a t-shirt. You're right, the fit is closer to the other set. However, there's still a lot of wrinkling on the front of the sleeve. What would account for this?
(https://i.postimg.cc/1grbjdsS/IMG-20210308-212613.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1grbjdsS)(https://i.postimg.cc/G836wjmy/IMG-20210308-212618.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G836wjmy)(https://i.postimg.cc/Lgn7h6f4/IMG-20210308-212624.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lgn7h6f4)(https://i.postimg.cc/FdP89JYn/IMG-20210308-212630.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FdP89JYn)
Quote from: krudsma on March 09, 2021, 10:20:22 AM
Edit: Ok, new pics without a t-shirt. You're right, the fit is closer to the other set. However, there's still a lot of wrinkling on the front of the sleeve. What would account for this?
Perhaps you're expecting too much from the material you're using? It's light weight and isn't going to drape like heavier, more substantial cloth. Did you press it? It doesn't look like there's any tightness there, so I doubt re-pitching is going to do that much, though the shortness probably doesn't help. I am not experienced in these matters though, so shall bow out and defer to those with greater knowledge. :)
That's a fair point, hadn't really considered the material. That said, I'm less concerned at this point with how the wrinkles look but how it feels. The sleeve just feels tight, especially when I reach forward or bend my elbow.
Ok, I see. When you think the rotation is not right, just rotate the sleeve a bit in the armhole. The seams will not match, but this can be adressed later. Just try it.
My main concerne is the sever pulling fold from the pin to the end of the shoulder. The bodice is pulled away from the neckhole. Did you enlarge the shoulders?
I wonder why the pic with the arrows of post 35 looks yet so much better? The distortions seem to be just in the front of the cap.
That is very weird, I hadn't noticed it. I didn't change the shoulders or armhole at all since post #35, just the sleeve. I'll try rotating it in the armhole a bit to see if that helps.
Rotation of about 1 cm forward, i.e. the apex of the sleeve cap is roatated toward the front, and conversely the seam at the bottom toward the back, seems to be a constant feature in some Italian shirts.
Interesting! I've never had the pleasure of owning an Italian shirt so I wouldn't know.
Sleeve rotated 1cm counter-clockwise (and new backdrop):
(https://i.postimg.cc/yDTncJH6/IMG-20210309-162721.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDTncJH6)(https://i.postimg.cc/qtbLD9q9/IMG-20210309-162727.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtbLD9q9)(https://i.postimg.cc/CZL7NFhG/IMG-20210309-162732.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZL7NFhG)(https://i.postimg.cc/bd2TLVhB/IMG-20210309-162715.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bd2TLVhB)
Feeling better! Elbow still feels super tight so I might just need to go with a lower cap - I still think I need about 1.5cm ease in the cap as well and will try that before I draft a lower cap. The stress from the shoulder to the neck pin seems to be resolved which makes me think it was a result of the sleeve fitting too tightly at the shoulder.
Doesn´t look that bad! And I don´t see, that the elbow is to tight?
Ease in a shirt sleeve cap is needed when the shoulders are not wide enough. Then the sleeve cap has to "cup" the roundness of the shoulder. You don´t need ease when you place the armhole seam far enough outwards at the edge of the shoulder.
What I wanted to add is, I don´t like your cap line yet. It´somehow quirky. Such a high cap needs an exaggerated contour, and in my eyes it also doesn´t work when the highest cap point is in the middle of the sleeve. It must be more in the front halve. There are pattern systems out there, wich obey this detail and allow to produce a cap indivudually for a given armhole. Is your pattern probably meant for a much lower cap?
I would imagine something like this (bear in mind, I never draw with the computer and Posaune would do it much better):
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mn3gR3zF/Screen-Shot-2021-03-08-at-1-36-59-PM.png) (https://postimg.cc/Mn3gR3zF)
Quote from: krudsma on March 10, 2021, 09:49:36 AM
Elbow still feels super tight so I might just need to go with a lower cap
It might be an idea to post a photo of you with your sleeved arm bent upwards and another with it stretching out. If the elbow/upper arm is constricted, then the obvious solution is to add more circumference there. Post pics first, though? As peterle says, it doesn't look tight. Try comparing the fit with a garment you already own. Again, perhaps you're expecting too much?
I attach a pic from Ruben Bakker about fitting a shirt here sideview- the forward arm. Mr. Ruben tailores in the Netherland
https://nl.pinterest.com/tailored_rb/.
And here is the text which belongs to the side view pic:
The side view reveals some additional problems. The first one that is especially evident is the stooped neck, ie a forward angled neck. I will make the neckline on the yoke slightly higher, and slightly lower on the front, to sort of "shift" the neckline forward.
Then the sleeve, which is angled backwards. At time of measurement, I will decide wether or not I want the sleeve to be angled to compensate for any natural armstances. Moving the middle of the sleeve back, shifts the natural stance of the sleeve forward, which this customer obviously needs.
Being a kitesurfer and pretty athletic overall, he has what we call "athletic arms". Athletic arms are both bent more then normal arms, but also stand forward when looking from the side. Would we attach the sleeve in the default manner, draglines would have appeared that indicate a wrong sleeve setting.
The back of the sleeve is a little bulged. While this is normal to some extent – we still need to be able to move – this is a little excessive and I will adjust the line the scye takes on the back accordingly. There has also been some extra adjustment in the back where the yoke joins the back of the shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDDhxj30/rbakker.png) (https://postimg.cc/dDDhxj30)
(https://i.postimg.cc/crhwqLZx/sleeve-curves.png) (https://postimg.cc/crhwqLZx)
and if you lay the sleeves together like sewn you see they have a nice curve - ever so slightly - where they met.
There's also some elementary stuff on drafting sleeves below, in video form, courtesy of Don McCunn. Other vids on his site deal with measuring for, and fitting, sleeves. Plus he demonstrates how to include an elbow dart to account for the forward bend of the forearm. Not suitable for all garments, but it might iron out (literally and metaphorically) the creases at your elbow. (scroll down for the "The Sleeve Sloper and Variations" heading, then scroll down to click on 'week one').
http://patternmaking-classes.com (http://patternmaking-classes.com)
Quote from: posaune on March 11, 2021, 10:17:13 PM
I attach a pic from Ruben Bakker about fitting a shirt here sideview- the forward arm. Mr. Ruben tailores in the Netherland
https://nl.pinterest.com/tailored_rb/.
And here is the text which belongs to the side view pic:
The side view reveals some additional problems. The first one that is especially evident is the stooped neck, ie a forward angled neck. I will make the neckline on the yoke slightly higher, and slightly lower on the front, to sort of "shift" the neckline forward.
Then the sleeve, which is angled backwards. At time of measurement, I will decide wether or not I want the sleeve to be angled to compensate for any natural armstances. Moving the middle of the sleeve back, shifts the natural stance of the sleeve forward, which this customer obviously needs.
Being a kitesurfer and pretty athletic overall, he has what we call "athletic arms". Athletic arms are both bent more then normal arms, but also stand forward when looking from the side. Would we attach the sleeve in the default manner, draglines would have appeared that indicate a wrong sleeve setting.
The back of the sleeve is a little bulged. While this is normal to some extent – we still need to be able to move – this is a little excessive and I will adjust the line the scye takes on the back accordingly. There has also been some extra adjustment in the back where the yoke joins the back of the shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDDhxj30/rbakker.png) (https://postimg.cc/dDDhxj30)
(https://i.postimg.cc/crhwqLZx/sleeve-curves.png) (https://postimg.cc/crhwqLZx)
and if you lay the sleeves together like sewn you see they have a nice curve - ever so slightly - where they met.
Thanks posaune for sharing this. I was wondering if you have the whole article from ruben bakker on fitting a shirt? I think it would really helpful to share it one more time, since it isn't available any longer on his website (i.e. his website in general seems to be offline)
I stumbled across this info in an old book I own. Might be of interest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dkV3022n/1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dkV3022n)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z01YktMw/2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z01YktMw)
That's a great addititon Gerry.
What is the name of the book please?
G
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 14, 2021, 11:16:39 AM
That's a great addititon Gerry.
What is the name of the book please?
G
It's called "Textiles on Test : A Study for Distributor and Consumer of the Wearing and Washing Properties of Fabrics and Garments" by J Guilfoyle Williams (1931).
What I posted is the only bit of tailoring advice in the whole book, though. It's a very detailed study on the nature of all textiles used in the clothing industry at the time of publication. Not exactly riveting reading (I've barely looked at it!), but some very good info about cleaning (probably, like I said, I've barely looked at it).
There are a couple of copies going reasonably cheap on uk amazon; but if I have the time this week, and if my scanner plays nice (fingers crossed), I'll make a PDF and put it on internet archive (look out for a link).
Sounds great Gerry.
A knowledge of textile properties is a great bonus to any tailor.
I wonder if peterle has this title?
G
I've scanned a few chapters this morning, Schneiderfrei. Will keep doing a little throughout the next couple of days and upload it. Since recent system and program updates, my scanner and pdf conversion software is temperamental ... so it's a slow process. :)
No worries,
With luck I will receive a copy myself in a few days.
G
Link here:
https://archive.org/details/textiles-on-test-j-guilfoyle-williams_202103/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/textiles-on-test-j-guilfoyle-williams_202103/mode/2up)