Hello everyone.
Taking a break from trousers so I am working on a new shirt draft.
I use the draft provided by Die Gewand sammlung, for those not familiar with the draft, It looks like a rundshau draft (maybe a variation)?
I have trouble with my previous shirt where the collar is slightly to low in the back neck and to high at the throat.
Even with a collar that is 1 cm too large I have trouble buttoning the collar without having to pull it out of shape, compared to where the shirt wants to sit naturally.
I did a bit of a rough test and came to the conclusion that I need to move the collar forward (higher in back neck, lower in front) by about 1/8 inch.
How do I go about this alteration?
I am happy with the fit of the body (I don't see balance issues), I really just want to move the collar forward a little bit.
No pics for now, might add later if I can manage to make them by myself.
I had the same problem as well. And altough it wasn't really a balance issue either, it had to do with forward rolled shoulders, so that the front armhole was simply too big in relation to the back armhole. I just pinned some cloth horizontaly away at the chest, including the armhole and that solved the issue (you must however control the balance afterwards again), so I made the changes to the pattern. I can't say that you have the same problem, but mine was indicated by some "pulling" sensation in the throat area.
So I don't know if such an alteration is correct, but it worked for me.
I have forward shoulders aswell, so this is definitely something I will try.
Thnx!
Edit, I am starting to think that the neck hole is a little too wide for my neck. Think, round neck hole, oval neck.
The circumference measurement is correct. I calculated the neck width as follows. 1/6 of the neck circumference + 1 cm (as stated in the draft).
Is there a way to measure for a narrow neck? Or is this something that is typically assessed during a fitting?
Kiem, for those of us in the older population there is the "high round back" adjustment. You can "google" this and find many tutorials. The alteration for "forward head" does the "high round back" plus lowering and reshaping the front neckline. You simply have to play around with some muslin and do mock-ups until you hit upon the right shape for you. Fitting yourself is hard compared to fitting someone else.
Kiem you should fit the shirt without collar at first. It is important that the neckhole is on the right position . The center back neck point should lie on the 7th vertebra (the protruding one). Secure the neckhole line with a row of stay stitching to avoid any stretching.
To add to what Peterle says, to find the 7th vertebra put your finger on the back of your neck at the knob and feel for the indentation. With the head erect, finger in the indentation, move the head forward and then back. Your finger should move up and over the knob and then back into the indentation.. The neckline seam is supposed to fit at that indentation
That is super helpfull, I can definitely feel where it should be.
I did a few tests today, and it seem that every time I move the collar forward by some amount, I need to pin that same amount away at the back yoke seam because it starts to roll in the neck.
Unfortunately I'm running out of cheap cloth to make muslin out of.
Don´t make a new muslin every time. Use one with inlays to do the fitting.
Do the fitting without collar. When the neckhole is´nt at the right place you probably have balance or shoulder issues. When the neckhole is on the right place, probably your collar is not drafted right or not attached the right way.
Only pics can help. everything else is crystall sphere reading...
I used all my leftover pieces of cotton, they weren't large enough to add inlays and could barely get 2 tests out of them.
First thing I checked today was finding my 7th vertebrae and feeling wether the back neck seam lies on it. This seems to be a perfect match. It is right on the protrusion. Both with the top button buttoned and unbuttoned.
I made some pictures, hope these help. I wasn't able to take pics from the rear by myself.
I also did some measuring. My collars have shrunken a bit after several washes (these are shirts I made about 1 year ago.
Blue shirt has a small 37,5 / 38 cm collar (button to buttonhole) White striped shirt has 39cm collar.
My neck measures +- 38 with no fingers between the tape, and +-39 with 3 fingers between. Give or take a few mm's
I am aware that my shirts need a bit more sloping.
Another thing I am noticing is that my posture changes quite a bit.
I have experienced pretty bad fatigue issues for the past 5 years. So sometimes my energy is low and I am stand more stooped, other days I am a little bit more erect.
I have done a lot of posture checks in front of the mirror. Standing erect and seeing what happens, standing more stooped etc. Based on that, and some of the muslins and drafts I did in the past I feel I am quite straight overal. Though sloped and forward shoulders, slight forward neck.
I am pretty happy with the fit of the body, with the exception of the shoulder slope being off.
Honestly, these shirt are more comfortable and better fitting than anything I have ever been able to buy.
On these shirts I dropped the left shoulder 1 cm and the right shoulder 2,5 cm compared to the original draft.
Unbuttoned, it seems the collar wants to slide outwards down my shoulder muscles.
That makes me think the neck hole might be too wide.
When closing the collar button I need to pull the collar in a bit, but this doesn't seem to raise it in the back neck, only at the sides of the neck.
I tried on a profuomo rtw shirt with a 38 collar (I measured the distance to be sure it really is 38 cm, it is).
I am able to easily close the collar, though it has some roll in the back neck, seam also lies on the 7th vertebrae.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ygbtsxm7/20200328-124425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygbtsxm7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0bgXfLZX/20200328-123725.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0bgXfLZX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YG5RdWNL/20200328-123732.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YG5RdWNL)
(https://i.postimg.cc/87cyPNC5/20200328-123741.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/87cyPNC5)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hzsxdQyq/20200328-123957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hzsxdQyq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1g9D5KBK/20200328-123321.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1g9D5KBK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bdKb2PLr/20200328-123358.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bdKb2PLr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PCdCm5DX/20200328-123349.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCdCm5DX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/34d25xrj/20200328-132108.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34d25xrj)
another thing I just noticed.
When I wear the shirt, unbuttoned, the buttons are 1,5 cm lower that the centre of the buttonholes.
Edit: this problem gets way less when I pin my shoulder to be more sloped.
Where should I start??
New pattern, muslin, no sleeves/ collar?
Existing pattern, muslin, no sleeves, no collar?
When you dropped the shoulder did you just drop the shoulder or did you move the whole armhole downwards? It seems your armholes are pulled downwards, because they are not deep enough. Therefore the diagonal creases from the bottom of the armholes towards the neck. (less obviuos in the blue shirt)
Where did you do the shoulder dropping? on the true shoulder line or at the front yoke seam?
How much did you take out in the sideseam for the waist? Does the white shirt have back darts?
why did he drop the shoulder his angle is about 23° no panic ! The problem is the posture with the protruding belly point.
lg
posaune
To my laymens eye it seems you should add some lenght at the CF at the belly. I'm not sure you need a belly draft though. Since it seems that the shoulder issue on the left is not only the angle of the shoulder but the fact that they roll forward, I think you could try a forward shoulder adjustment, where you also shorten the upper chest a little bit.
I think you can easily alter your existing pattern, but again, I'm no expert.
I did not alter the yoke from the original draft.
The slope was done as in the picture added, so I did drop the armhole by the same amount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7bJsr8ND/unnamed.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7bJsr8ND)
White shirt has darts in the back, and is overall a bit tight. slightly higher armholes and closer around the chest. Not the best example.
I changed that in the blue shirt (which I made last).
Blue shirt has no darts in the back.
I added 6 cm ease total to my chest, waist and hip measurement. The draft stated 16cm?!?
Rh or scye depth from the nape of neck down is 24 cm (calculated as stated in the draft) 1/16 full body length + 1/8 chest = Ruckenhohe Rh.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vd59x3P1/20200328-181258.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vd59x3P1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtH8CqhM/20200328-181351.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtH8CqhM)
When I deliberately roll my shoulders backward most of the diagonal creases disappear. Hard to photograph while also holding the camera.
My shoulders roll forward when standing naturally.
How would I do a forward shoulder alteration? I know of the one where the shoulder seam is displaced forward a bit while the neck point stays the same.
For experimental sake I pulled in my belly while standing in front of the mirror (sideview). I can only see a minor change. Though I should add a little extra width in the front.
Kiem, there are two ways to do the forward shoulder. In the first you subtract from the front and add to the back across the seam anywhere from 3/8" to 5/8". In the second you leave the neck point the same and subtract a wedge from the front and add it to the back. If you google several some of the more popular sewing blogs (try Louise Cutting, Maria Denmark, In Fitting Fashion) you can find tutorials for this. Most are written by and for women but bone structure is bone structure and the alterations are much the same for men and women. In this age of computers and desk work, the rounded back and forward shoulder is very common.
Thanks Theresa!
I did look these up on youtube.
For the wedge method, would I add to the Yoke shoulder point or the back part?
All the videos I was able to find have the shoulder seam on the natural shoulder line, No yoke pieces were mentioned.
keim, it is not that you have a big belly. Take the side photo. draft with a ruler a plumb line from your bust. You will see it will not touch the belly point. You are rotating your hip, your belly goes forward and your rear stick out.
I still think your shoulders are quite normal. Load down on your phone an app which measures angles. And measure both side. A drop of 2.5 cm is real much. Remember: a shirt is a shirt. It has to have some ease in it. If you want it tighter you need another construction and you have todo more fitting.
Ok, I see what you have done.
Shoulder slope alterations have to be done at the real shoulder line wich is on the highest line of your bodies shoulder and therefore (depending on your pattern instructions) about 2-4cm behind the front yoke seam. The alteration you did causes problems, because it's done at the wrong places and throws off the balance of the armhole.
A real forward shoulder needs an adjustment that creates more room for the front shoulder area. Just shifting the seamline- no matter wether you remove a wedge or a strip from the front and add it to the back- will not create more room. It will just shift the seam line optically.
I think you should do a muslin of your original pattern first without alterations. It's also better to determine the yoke seam lines after fitting. I'm also not sure you need a shoulder adjustment.
Quote from: peterle on March 30, 2020, 12:47:23 AM
Ok, I see what you have done.
Shoulder slope alterations have to be done at the real shoulder line wich is on the highest line of your bodies shoulder and therefore (depending on your pattern instructions) about 2-4cm behind the front yoke seam. The alteration you did causes problems, because it's done at the wrong places and throws off the balance of the armhole.
A real forward shoulder needs an adjustment that creates more room for the front shoulder area. Just shifting the seamline- no matter wether you remove a wedge or a strip from the front and add it to the back- will not create more room. It will just shift the seam line optically.
I think you should do a muslin of your original pattern first without alterations. It's also better to determine the yoke seam lines after fitting. I'm also not sure you need a shoulder adjustment.
How would such an shoulder slope alteration look? I made a quick drawing on how I think it should look, please verify if this is the right idea.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BjrCFRzf/20200329-164120.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BjrCFRzf)
And thanks for the verification on the forward shoulder alteration, thats exactly what I thought it did. Seam displacement optically.
If I recall correctly, a forward shoulder alteration on a coat would be to straighten the front neck point, take in the front of the armscye, let out the back of the armscye.
Thus getting rid of the excess fabric at centre front and the front of the scye.
I found this picture once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/w3v78zgq/forward-shoulder.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3v78zgq)
If this is even correct, would this be done this way on a shirt aswell?
Maybe it is unclear in the pictures, but my right shoulder drops quite a bit compared to my left.
The 2,5 cm drop is based on my lowest shoulder compared to the original draft. I drop my left shoulder 1 cm based on original draft. So there is a 1,5 cm difference between my left and right shoulder. I guess depending on which draft is used the slope will be different?
For example, The slope on the waistcoat draft I use is a perfect match for my high shoulder.
I compared my waistcoat and shirt patterns with some measuring and calculating, and my shirt draft is more square shoulder by default.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGMveaNoo6k&frags=pl%2Cwn
17:50
This is what initially inspired me to even look at the fit of a shirt when I started making my own shirt patterns.
I copied his way of doing the shoulder slope, because it was my only reference at the time I could find.
I think even now this is the only video where some of the fitting stage is even shown.
I downloaded a protractor measuring app on me phone and placed it on top of my shoulder.
My left shoulder measures about 20 degree, and my right shoulder about 24,5 degrees.
I did this facing a mirror, and by myself it is rather tricky, so the numbers could be a bit off. I guess it is close enough for now.
The sloping is made in a different way. Imagine a fitting with the natural shoulderline marked on the fabric. You would pinch the shoulderline and lift it at the armhole till the slope looks right and then you would pin the lifted material away. This removes a wedge of fabric. Then you do this to the pattern: Remove a wedge with the natural shoulder line as center line. To keep the armhole depth as was, you have to deepen the armhole base for the same amount you cut away at the top. Synopsis: You shift the whole armhole line downwards and reconnect the neckhole tips with the armhole tips.
You can´t do this lounge coat correction in a shirt, because the lounge coat doesn´t have a straight center front line like a shirt.
I think in the video not every step is shown. The pinning at the back armhole is because of the ronded back/shoulder and when he repins the front yoke seam he created a kind of little dart to get the yoke to curve forward. When proceeding he maybe will ease it in or maybe he pinches the yoke pattern.
That makes sense.
It does raises a few questions.
When the wedge for a sloping shoulder is taken out of the natural shoulder line, This alters the shape of the yoke when it is closed, and also changes the shape of the neck hole a little bit.
When there is 1 shoulder that is more sloped than the other, the yoke would become asymmetrical correct? Same for the neckline?
I am curious if the seams are altered or displaced to keep the yoke symmetrical after the alterations.
It seems a asymmetrical yoke would not look good on striped or patterned fabrics?
I guess one could do a shirt muslin with no yoke, just a front and a single piece back, do the sloped shoulder alteration at the natural shoulder line, and then draw a yoke shape wherever needed/wanted?
I am going to make a new muslin when I have found some fabric that I can use.
I might have some cheap cotton poplin laying around.
I attach a pic. It mimicks the shoulders with different angles. You see a difference from 5° gives a difference about 1 cm in height.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVSDMdjx/schulterschr-ge.png) (https://postimg.cc/HVSDMdjx)
Quote from: posaune on March 30, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
I attach a pic. It mimicks the shoulders with different angles. You see a difference from 5° gives a difference about 1 cm in height.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVSDMdjx/schulterschr-ge.png) (https://postimg.cc/HVSDMdjx)
That is really helpful! Thank you, very much appreciated.
Pictures make it so much easier to understand some of these things.
I guess the measured angles can then be directly implemented in drafting a pattern?
I am curious how that would work exactly.
Drafted a new pattern, No extra alterations made, just the plain draft with my measurements. 16cm total ease around full chest as the draft instructs.
If I measure the angle at the natural shoulder line I get 14 degrees.
The slope method I was talking about is meant for symmetrical slope adjustment. A low shoulder has to be adapted for with a different method when it is heavier. There is a recent post with a pic somewhere.
Yes, the yoke form and the neckhole change with this method. This is important and is the reason why your approaches won´t work very well. Probably it´s also the reason for your neck issues.
Yes, it´s better to make a muslin without yoke but true shoulder line and determening the yoke lines after the fitting ( see post #17).
Yes you can implement an angle measure in your pattern draft, but concerning the shoulder nothing beats a fitting with inlays (like the professional in your vid). It´s the only reliable method to get the shoulder right (and nearly impossible when fitting yourself).
Yes, every assymetrical pattern will have an impact when using patterned fabric and sometimes the assymetrical pattern even pronounces the assymetry of the body. Therefor it´s better to leave the pattern symmetrical sometimes.
Thanks once again for all the input.
I am waiting for some cheap fabric to be delivered to make a muslin out of. I ordered 6 meter of cheap 100% cotton poplin and waiting on delivery.
In the mean time I took apart a Profuomo RTW shirt I bought in a thrift store for a few euros.
Mainly to do some comparing to my own patterns and shirts, and to find out a bit about the collar issue I experience, and why these issues did not present itself in this particular shirt when trying it on.
I found out that the sleeve draft is exactly the same as I do.
Though, the collar has some things going on I don't understand.
It looks to be a so called, kent kragen collar. The size is 38cm (measured button to buttonhole) and the collar seam is 42cm long. The neck hole on the body is 46cm long.
I was under the impression no ease is to be added to the neck hole, collar. Is this assumption correct?
Also, can someone explain to me the difference between a kent collar and a smoking collar?
I can see there is a obvious difference in shape, but why or when would I use one or the other?
For my previous shirts I used the smoking collar pattern.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WtTngq3B/Schermafbeelding-2020-03-31-om-21-13-50.png) (https://postimg.cc/WtTngq3B)
You´r right, no ease in the neckhole. Maybe the neckhole was stretched while deconstructing the shirt? Iron the neckhole carefully (the fabric threads have to be in a right angle afterwards) and remeasure.
The most relevant difference in the collar drafts are in the baseline and width of the stands. It will have influences on how the stand lies to the neck. Make one of each and perhaps also a complete straight stand and find out.
I made a quick testing muslin.
First thing I notice it that the left centre front is 2 cm higher than the right when I let the muslin sit on my body naturally.
This happens on other shirts as well, both self made and rtw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wq6qqYTr/20200404-142221.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wq6qqYTr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/p5xpvQzd/20200404-142143.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p5xpvQzd)
EDIT:
The top buttons won't meet, the lowest button overlaps more.
Indicates to me that the Left front part is cut too square. Letting out the left side neck point will straighten this out.
Rightside fits nicely around the neck, and the right side centrefront hangs straight down.
I could add 2 cm front balance to the left side, and proceed from there, rather than letting out the neck point.
Anyway, It seems my left side shoulder/ neck is much more developed than my right side.
Seems the neck hole needs to be bigger in the left side aswell because of this.
I made a bunch of changes to the muslin. Wanted to see if I can identify the problems myself.
First, make the armhole on the wrinkled side about 2 cm dieper. This side is now distorted because your arm is pushing the sirht down. Maybe now the marks will line up, then you can have a look at the excess material on top of your shoulder.
Good luck.
We need side and back pics to say wether the folds are caused by shoulder/armhole issues or balance issues or both. These alterations have to be done before any assymetric changes will be done.
The shifted center fronts are probably caused by the low shoulder which also affects your neck. Your bodie´s neck base seems to be lower on the right side than on the left. So when doing an assymetric low shoulder adaption you should do it like shown in post #8 in this thread: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=708.0 (http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=708.0)
This will also change the neckhole ( it has do be done at front and back).
I'm making a muslin with more allowances.
I used the previous one to see wether I could make alterations by myself, bit of a fun experiment.
I'll try to make some better pics, taking good pictures all by myself proves to be quite difficult.
maybe you can make yourself something where you can stand in your cell. Then choose 10 seconds (Selbstauslöser word ?) and you will have nice pics with you arms hanging relaxed. I do it with my tablet - works wonderfull
lg
posaune
I tend to think that the balance is off. The front being to short. Deeping the armholes would be the wrong answer. An inch of inlay on the front shoulder would give you more than enough room to play with just by moving the seamup or, in this case, down.
Not being a shirt person at all... I do think you're "hanging by the armpits, so to say. So it is hard to trace any defect. Further, I think besides the missing front length, there's too little chest width. You would have to unbutton your shirtcollar to reach for your backpocket? Agree with Greger that before anything else you have to get the balance in order. Also, I would cut it a little nore "generous", so you can work towards the desired fit, but that's just me...
When dropping or raising the front the side seams need to be adjusted, too. And that is up or down accordingly.
Another adjustment at the shoulder is moving the shoulder out or in. Inlays are required there to. Inlays along the sideseams become practical as do inlays along the front length edge. When you move your arms and shoulders is the cloth still, or moving? By experimenting you can find out where the changes need to be made. And, how much.
Some of the pictures turned out a bit blurry, but I guess they will work for now.
1cm seam allowance around the neckhole, stitching line is the actual seam.
8,5 cm ease around the body. I have 3cm inlay on the shoulders and the side seams.
This is unpinned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8FnVRB41/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FnVRB41)
(https://i.postimg.cc/21kpgXXk/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/21kpgXXk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fk05Qt4R/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fk05Qt4R)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3dg7sG8B/SAM-0005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3dg7sG8B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sv9d6RmH/SAM-0006.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sv9d6RmH)
The problem seem to be the base of the neck that is higher on one side.
I think it is because I bent to the right side.
The left side CF does not hang straight at all, the right side CF does
The left side neck seam lies on the throat, the right side seems in a more appropriate place.
This misalignment between buttons and buttonhole occurs with every garment. Shirts, Jacket, waistcoat, overcoat. (I checked).
These pictures are the same muslin, but pinned close on the correct markings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKqSvvxY/SAM-0016.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rKqSvvxY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zHFTyjZj/SAM-0017.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zHFTyjZj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2bpWTJCG/SAM-0018.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2bpWTJCG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8fN6g6Jr/SAM-0019.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8fN6g6Jr)
I think the back look pretty good, seems the problem is in the fronts mostly?!?
side pictures, the front are pulling up. Indicating short front balance?
Had this issue with a coat muslin I once made, had to add 2/2,5 cm front balance to sort that out.
Seems like a good place to start?
oh hell, now that I can see you standing relaxed, I see too that you have sloped shoulders. That was not the case at the beginning when you were holding your cell to take the pics. You had squared your shoulders.
3 things you have to do.
Balance
Slopping shoulders (with armhole corrections)
and
the hanging side.
I would start with the balance so the neckhole will not choke you anymore (left side).
The back is by no means okay, see the gaping at the upper armhole and your shoulderblades needs more lengths, they are pulling up.
Just start with fitting one side of the shirt. Do the same to the other side and then do the difference, eg. more sloping.
lg
posaune
because of your posture - swing the back pattern a bit out. you need more width over your bum. The shirt cups in beneath.
Thnx posaune!
I might add that I did not take in the upper back where the yoke seam would normally be.
That explains at least some of the gaping in the upper armhole.
Should I cut away the 1cm seam allowance that is included round the armhole for this fitting?
no, because you will later fit in the sleeves. But do sew the darts. Make them a bit more because of your posture. I would do 3 cm. It looks like the left may need more - funny. -But first the balance. Are you left or right hander?
good luck
I am right handed.
First alterations:
Added 1 cm darts at back shoulder. left + right side
Added 2 cm to left front side To compensate for the high neckline at throat.
Sloped shoulder 1 cm at shoulder point. left + right side
(https://i.postimg.cc/4nzRyJnQ/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4nzRyJnQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKMXtvrX/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rKMXtvrX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CRrWX56S/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CRrWX56S)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rddvkTvW/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rddvkTvW)
The left front is still high by about 1 cm. (not visible in pictures due to closed CF
shoulder darts are too small.
shirt cups beneath bum as posaune mentioned (if i tilt my hip forward the back looks cleaner around the seat).
2nd alterations made.
Let out the left shoulder seam by 1 cm to compensate for the high neckline at throat.
Added 3 cm total back darts left + right side
Added 2 cm back balance to compensate for shortness over shoulder blades.
Left side still has 1 cm slope (armhole not deepened due to the shoulder seam being let out by 1cm total).
right side has 2,5 cm slope (armhole deepened by 2,5 cm).
I Basted these, so I can let out easily to create a symmetrical slope if that is needed for pictures/reference.
I did not compensate for the needed width around the seat yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zLYjP1S0/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLYjP1S0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HJ0tqP6H/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HJ0tqP6H)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MfHbjZqK/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MfHbjZqK)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cdr4p8sZ/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cdr4p8sZ)
CF seems to be pulling up a bit viewed from the side pictures.
Left back shoulder still gapes a little bit.
I get the idea that I need to slope the shoulders a little bit more.
I can see that the natural shoulder line is not symmetrical.
It sits further back on the left side neck point, compared to the right side.
I think you must add something to the front to correct the balance. I would figur 1cm at the bust but at least 2cm at the belly (as indicated by the lines). Concerning the shoulders I'm far from being an expert but the right shoulder looks fine to me. I would think that you sloped the left shoulder already too much, so I would add something there via the slash method peterle was referring to at an earlier post and than adjust for the roundness of the back by enlarging the back dart and also make an forward shoulder alteration (I think by slashing the shoulder the neckhole would fall in the right position). Than again, I struggle with my own drafts enough to refrain from any definite advice ;)
Out of curiosity,
What happens when adding both front and back balance?!?
For example: Adding 1 cm front balance and 1 cm back balance. Doesn't this cancel each other out? I don't see how this would change anything other than deepening the armhole.
Edit:
I'll post some pictures tomorrow of the muslin with the shoulder slope symmetrical. I got ahead of myself with sloping my dropped shoulder in the pics above :D
Kiem I would now work at the neck. It is high in front and side especially left side.
The armhole look at the back funy, there is a wadder in the lower third which is pressed down. Maybe the Armhole to big in the back? The balance looks for me allright. How much have you darted the side seams?
At neck you can put on a little something (small chain or string or anything) with a weight - maybe a key pulled - through. So that the string is pulled down. It will sit in the deepest ????? between neck and shoulder. you can chalk this as a guide line how deep to cut.
lg
posaune
Quote from: Kiem on April 08, 2020, 10:16:01 PM
Out of curiosity,
What happens when adding both front and back balance?!?
For example: Adding 1 cm front balance and 1 cm back balance. Doesn't this cancel each other out? I don't see how this would change anything other than deepening the armhole.
Edit:
I'll post some pictures tomorrow of the muslin with the shoulder slope symmetrical. I got ahead of myself with sloping my dropped shoulder in the pics above :D
Yeah, I think you're right. Adding front balance at the bust would just cancel each other out. I still think you could add to the belly. If you look at the side pictures the line you draw there is still pointing upwards.
Just some general question for the professionals here: If the neckhole is so different on only one side I would imagine it has more to do with the shoulder i.e. how the shirt drapes from the shoulder since the neckline itself would't be as asymmetrical. So after making the correct adjustments to the shoulder shouldn't the neckhole fall in place as well?
Quote from: posaune on April 08, 2020, 10:37:17 PM
Kiem I would now work at the neck. It is high in front and side especially left side.
The armhole look at the back funy, there is a wadder in the lower third which is pressed down. Maybe the Armhole to big in the back? The balance looks for me allright. How much have you darted the side seams?
At neck you can put on a little something (small chain or string or anything) with a weight - maybe a key pulled - through. So that the string is pulled down. It will sit in the deepest ????? between neck and shoulder. you can chalk this as a guide line how deep to cut.
lg
posaune
Yeah, the neck hole almost seems slightly off centre, actually, my neck is probably off centre.
Sliding down my right side and up the left side.
I find this hard to really judge due to the 1cm seam allowance I added around the neck hole. I was thinking of cutting it away to have a better look at where the neck hole sits.
With the string and weight method, Do you do this to find the lowest point where the shoulder meets te neck? To determine where the new neck hole needs to be?
The sides are suppressed 3,5 cm.
I can let the out easily, plenty of inlay. I was thinking of doing this to see what happens. Maybe even let out the the side seam from all the way to the hem, creating a bit more room to go around the seat.
When I let the string hang down at front I mark how it runs at the side of the neck. Pulling the weight to the back and let it fall down there - it will give me the neck point CF. (But that is me)
Side suppression depends from your rib cage and has nothing to do with your waist. if suppressed too much you get drag lines. For a slim waist you work with darts:
Don't let out all of the side seams.
You just swing out the back a bit. Hold it at CB cut the hem and shoulder and then rotate the pattern to the side maybe 2 cm at CB (hem) you cut now the rest. That will give you more then enough room. If it is not enough do it to the front too.
@ Petruchio: when you look on Kiem´s lat front picture you can see his left trapezius meets his neck neck higher than the right. (Aligne your triangle ruler with the vertical door frame in the back) A symmetric neckhole can´t fit an assymetric neck. The pattern has to picture this assymetry and the right neckpoint has to reach lower than the left. Keep in mind symmetry means the left side is the mirrow image of the right side and the centerlines are the mirrowing axles. When you mean the neckline of the pattern itself (isolated from everything else) it won´t change it´s form massively and we also don´t want it to change too much, but it changes it´s relative position to everything else in the pattern.
@ Kiem: Looks much better now.I think you have very forward shoulders. That´s why your front armhole is clinging to the body and your back armhole is not. Forward shoulders need a slightly wider back from armhole to armhole and a slightly narrower front chest between the armholes. The back usually needs more lenght (wich you just added). You can mimick the necessary alteration with pinning: Find the protruding point of the left shoulderblade. Its above the tip of your armhole dart about 2cm below your yoke seam marking. (you can see small folds pointing to the right spot in you back pic). From there pin a vertical dart to the shoulder seam (taking out about 1,5cm at the shoulder seam). This dart helps to get the back armhole tip towards the front. Now pin a stricly vetical fold from the dart end at the shoulder all the way to the hem of the front. same width as the dart, 1,5cm. This mimicks the narrower front. We can´t mimick a wider back with pinning, so maybe the back will feel a bit tight. You also have to open the back armhole dart for this procedure.
Put it on an see what happens.
Did you remove 3,5cm on each side of the seam(=7cm)? Reducing the waist nipping will probably also reduce those diagonal folds pointing to the waist. Better to reduce the nipping and installing back darts.
I did the forward shoulder alteration as Peterle suggested.
I think this forward shoulder alteration did a lot of good.
The bulk out of the front is gone
I did between 1,5 cm/2 cm total. (I did not measure super carefully, I just basted the darts/seams).
There was still gaping at the shoulders, so I put the back shoulders darts back to get rid of this.
I also let out the side seam at waist ands hip by 1 cm. Chest is unchanged.
You are correct, I initially supressed the side waist by 3,5 cm (7cm less than 1/2 chest measurement). Now I reduced that to 2,5 cm suppression (which is also what the draft states).
This did decrease the diagonal folds a bit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TLZtpcQb/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TLZtpcQb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWZf2wYy/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWZf2wYy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Czpv0mRT/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Czpv0mRT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yDVvgxhL/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDVvgxhL)
Another few things I noticed.
The reason for my shoulder drop and neck base difference is because I bent to the right side with my upper body. Causing my left side to rise and the right side to drop.
If I straighten myself out this disappears, and the 2cm front difference is gone aswell. I think this is due to the health issues I have had for the past 5 years. I had to spend a lot of time sitting and laying down due to very severe fatigue problems. This has not done my muscles and posture any good.
Another thing is that the right side of the muslin has more cloth that the left side. I think this is also due to bending sideways, and/or my neck is off centre.
The difference here seems to be about 1 cm.
The creases at side waist are also pronounced due to the side bent.
Ok, I see.
I also think it is cleaner now and it is more obviuose that the balance is a bit off. The front balance is a bit too short. I recommend to make it a tad longer: open the side seams and resew them with the back shifted downwards for about 1cm. there will be a 1cm step at both ends of the side seam. This should help with the clinging seat. We will see wether this longer front balance will interfere with your forward belly.
Don´t make the back armhole too tight with the darts. It better for mobility and doesn´t pronounce the rounded back so much.
The assymetry should be cared for after the symmetric alterations are done.
Would reducing the back balance do the same thing as adding front balance?
Probably, but the front armhole looks a bit tight, so I´d prefer to lenghten the front balance. Just try it.
1 cm front balance added.
I am actually think I might only need the front balance, also from experience with other garments.
Would it be better to start a muslin with the forward shoulder alteration done first, and then look at the slopes?
This alteration seems to change the slopes quite a bit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZBdHY08L/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZBdHY08L)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bs8g8ysQ/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bs8g8ysQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pmcJDKkZ/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmcJDKkZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BLThcXjn/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLThcXjn)
Peterle, Could you share how this forward shoulder alteration is made into the pattern?
My guess is taking a vertical wedge out of the yoke and closing that, and then lengthening the shoulder seam back to the original length?
Taking in the fronts seems just like in the fitting? Taking out the width from the entire front panel?
This is how i learned it. In dutch: een naar voren gedraaide schouderknok. Ik heb de hele pagina erop gezet, dan heb je ook de beschrijving. Hope all this helps. Succes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1gpdzyKN/Schermafbeelding-2020-04-12-om-13-36-36.png) (https://postimg.cc/1gpdzyKN)
Awesome Dankjewel!!
Just to make sure I understand this correctly.
They let out point A by cutting the pattern from point A towards the most hollow (concave) part of the shoulder. And let this out (pivot) by a certain amount. (the pleat or excess fabric in a finished garment should be enough to measure and thus determine how much this amount should be let out).
This excess runs from the neck point towards the front of scye.
Then create a small fold at B to create length at point A
Here is the part I don't understand.
The neck part at B will be stretched out (uit te zetten)?!? to bring point C to C1
The term, uit te zetten. Does this mean stretching the fabric? Or is this displacing that part of the pattern.
They talk about stretching the fabric some more when discussing this being difficult for cotton and silk fabrics, but that It should not pose a problem since the amount to stretch is quite small and the fabric is on the bias at that point. So I guess it means stretching the fabric, but it can't hurt to ask.
Sometimes the letting out from A to E is not necessary. And the new point C (C1?) is then connected towards the original point A shoulder point.
I guess it makes sense writing it down like this.
I had a different method in mind:
Cut your back paper pattern vertically through the new dart tip from the shoulder seam to the hem. Shift it apart for 1,5cm. Take this 1,5cm out with a dart from the dart tip to the shoulder seam. When you will have seperated the yoke, you can close the dart in the paper pattern and will have a single piece yoke.
Make the whole front 1,5cm narrower like you did the basting by pinching the paper pattern. elongate the shoulder line from the neckhole towards the shoulder tip ( so the sloping will stay the same) and measure the necassery length. Redraw the front armhole to the new shoulder tip.
Pfaff 260 ´s sketch is super for hollow shoulders with a protruding shoulder bone. you can do this additionally to get some room for the shoulder bone. It´s also super for waiscoats.
Dear Kiem,
Ignore the stretching and draw it like they did in the drawing. In a shirt you can't strech the fabric. But it gives you an idea where you should add more room
They refer to stretching not as a way to shape the garment, but to the fact that between the high shoulderpoint to the low shoulderpoint the fabric is cut slightly to bias. This gives a natural stretch between these points...
Thank you Hendrick!
'Just some general question for the professionals here: If the neckhole is so different on only one side I would imagine it has more to do with the shoulder i.e. how the shirt drapes from the shoulder since the neckline itself would't be as asymmetrical. So after making the correct adjustments to the shoulder shouldn't the neckhole fall in place as well?'
If you look at Poulin's (pages 101 to 103) he shows a basic adaptation. In figure 107 numbers D,4,5,6 he shows changing the back neck at the top of the other shoulder (good shoulder). He gives some general numbers for how much to change. Of course, in reality, a shoulder blade jutting out more than normal, large shoulder muscles, forward or backward shoulder, etc. would change the numbers. He shows pinning the garment to it proper location. With collars he recommends a paper collar and you can chalk the bottom to find and make the line to sew the real collar on (shirt). Paper is easy to try different shapes, not to mention, cheap. When the paper collar shape is correct and pleasing chalk it on the cloth and add seam allowances all around. This is just part of some details.
I have been figuring out my disproportion due to my protruding lower belly.
I took my seat measurement minus 6 inch or 15 cm to calculate the ideal waist, and then compared that to my measured waist.
I get a difference of 5 cm total.
Meaning my belly makes up about 5 cm of my waist circumference.
So I added 2,5 cm on each side on the centre front of a shirt muslin I have been playing around with. This seems to solves quite a few issues I was experiencing, at least for now.
What I am wondering is, should I draft for the ideal waist measurement and then ADD the disproportion to the centre front?
Or maybe take the disproportion amount away at the Centre back or side seams? I have not played around with this, though I have a rather hollow back, so I do need to take away a lot of material with darts.
I have corpulent drafting instructions for waistcoats, trousers, coats etc. These often calculate 1/8th or 1/4 th of the disproportion into the draft.
I think these drafts are meant for larger disproportions? For people who have fat around their waist? Rather than, me being skinny and just a bit more on the front compared to proportioned or ideal.
The disproportion of a belly figure is a different one than your forward belly. A belly figure is defined as the waist measure is equal or wider than the chest measure. I´m sure this is not true for you, because I think your measurements are pretty much normal. And I think you can´t calculate your disproportion the way you did.
In your posture the waistring is just shifted forwards compared to the chest ring. At least. To proceed You should find out if your hip ring is also shifted forward: on the norm posture the gluteus maximus touches the same vertical line as the shoulderblades.
For the front it would be better to pivot: find your nipple point in the pattern. Make a vertical slash from the hem to this point. Make a second slash bias from the armhole to this point. Leave the point uncut as a joint. Pivot open the vertical slash the desired amount at the waistline. The other slash will overlap. Try 1,5cm at the waistline.
How to treat the back depends on the position of your hip ring.
Would a forward hip ring be considered a swayback figure? (or something toward that type of figure?)
From what I can see on my pictures The line from my shoulder blades down to my butt is pretty much vertical.
I know my belly is forward due to some digestive issues I have been having the last few years.
In the morning I'm pretty much flat, during the day I tend to sort of swell up a bit. (I can measure quite the increase in circumference as well).
But due to my hollow back I think my waist ring is a bit forward.
Thanks for the info Petrle, plenty for me to start looking into!
Just out of curiosity, where did you learn all this, what is your background in tailoring?
It is clear that you have a tremendous knowledge of the craft, and all the info you share is very, very much appreciated.
I think I also found out why my collars seemed to fit a bit tight... I added 1,75 cm to the CF on the shirt, and only 1,5 cm to the collar past the 1/2 neck size. So my collars were too short by 0.5 cm hahaha
(https://i.postimg.cc/64WnHL1w/kiempostureleftside.png) (https://postimg.cc/64WnHL1w)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jLkPXf60/posture-kiem.png) (https://postimg.cc/jLkPXf60)
See your profile. At left side you shove your hip a bit in front. At right it is level with the shoulder blades. But your belly is clearly in front as your head is forward. How much your spine bent into front is not to see.
lg
posaune ;)
Quote from: posaune on May 17, 2020, 07:13:39 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/64WnHL1w/kiempostureleftside.png) (https://postimg.cc/64WnHL1w)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jLkPXf60/posture-kiem.png) (https://postimg.cc/jLkPXf60)
See your profile. At left side you shove your hip a bit in front. At right it is level with the shoulder blades. But your belly is clearly in front as your head is forward. How much your spine bent into front is not to see.
lg
posaune ;)
Yeah very clear to see, thank you :D
I'll post some more pictures sometime soon.
I have a muslin with the forward shoulder alteration done, added room to CF ands things look MUCH better than before.
I need to find someone to help me measure my back width Or find a way to do this myself. I can tell on my current muslin that it is not wide enough.
How much ease is typically added around the front chest and back width? If any...
Also another thing I run into, The right side shoulder is 2 cm lower than the left side. I notice The front chest is more narrow on the low side compared to the high side, also I have more ease in the side seam on the right side compared to left. In other words, It seems I need lees cloth on the low side of my body compared to the right side (atlas around the chest circumference and front chest.
So on this picture below (I think Posaune posted this somewhere before?) the low side is altered by shifting the pattern.
As a result the armhole changes to keep its balance, but the side seam moves in towards the CF, so a little less cloth on the lower side seam.
Is this a typical thing to see? low shoulder needs less front chest width and less cloth in the sides?
Does the pivot point have to be in that exact spot?
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WTtjv9s/h-ngeschulter-Posaune.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WTtjv9s)
Looks like part of you is sway back. But, maybe not.
Here is a fitting book for pre-made suits.
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=341.msg2082#msg2082
It may be of some use.
Hi Kiem; I am glad you took it with a friendly emotion.
Your question will get you one of the answers I hate: It depends!
If the hanging is severe and the neck is in it you do like this. If not you cut the armhole out, slide it down the amount and connect it new to the neckpoint. True the seams. If you have less fabric there you rotate it in (Rotating point Neckpoint).
Example: I have a hanging side at the left, the left side is less developed as the right side. But under the waist it is vice versa, my left hip is more developed than my right. See pic left side is black. I have different bust- and hip circs.
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/D84Xfqww/asymmetric.png) (https://postimg.cc/D84Xfqww)
Aah thats super interesting.
And I definitely take this with a friendly emote :D ;)
All, and I really mean All the input and observations are appreciated.
This topic alone has taught me more than I would be able to figure out all by myself.
I came across a picture somewhere that show how the side with a lower shoulder often has a more developed hip.
If I feel my hip muscles they are a bit more developed on my lower side.
I guess this has to do with the muscles always finding a certain balance in the body, no matter what is crooked, low, over or under developed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TK7XMj2S/low-shoulder-shifted-hip.png) (https://postimg.cc/TK7XMj2S)
I think this picture is a good representation in what happens with me.
Seems the low right shoulder pushes the waist in the opposite direction, needing less cloth on the right side waist, then pushes hip out on the right side, needing more cloth there.
I definitely push my neck sideways a bit as well.
I noticed this on my waistcoats, the right side is higher on the collar than left side.
In the pictures I posted previously I tend to stand a bit lazy, and drop my right side like in the left image in this picture below.
I guess I didn't want to stands "to attention" and instead stood a bit too lazy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDKpfNm3/lateral-muscles-imbalance-scoliosis-4-bw.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDKpfNm3)
Quote from: Greger on May 18, 2020, 12:44:22 PM
Looks like part of you is sway back. But, maybe not.
Here is a fitting book for pre-made suits.
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=341.msg2082#msg2082
It may be of some use.
That will come in handy, thank you!
Quote from: peterle on May 16, 2020, 07:27:17 PM
The disproportion of a belly figure is a different one than your forward belly. A belly figure is defined as the waist measure is equal or wider than the chest measure. I´m sure this is not true for you, because I think your measurements are pretty much normal. And I think you can´t calculate your disproportion the way you did.
In your posture the waistring is just shifted forwards compared to the chest ring. At least. To proceed You should find out if your hip ring is also shifted forward: on the norm posture the gluteus maximus touches the same vertical line as the shoulderblades.
For the front it would be better to pivot: find your nipple point in the pattern. Make a vertical slash from the hem to this point. Make a second slash bias from the armhole to this point. Leave the point uncut as a joint. Pivot open the vertical slash the desired amount at the waistline. The other slash will overlap. Try 1,5cm at the waistline.
How to treat the back depends on the position of your hip ring.
If I got this alteration right this might also change the way the neckhole lies and also the armhole (shortening it a little I think), compared to the method of just adding the amount evenly at the waistline and making a new CF and side seam. Are those effects desired or just so minor that they can be ignored?
Or is it just the small part that changes it´s position?
You always should add the desired amount at the place in the pattern where it is needed and it is needed in the middle of the front pattern and not at the CF or side seam.
Are you familiar with the position of the neckpoint in Rundschau coat patterns? It is determined by halving the front chest line and front belly line. Connecting these two points and carriing the line further to the shoulder line finds the neckpoint. So the wider the wider the CF belly point protrudes, the more outwards the position of the neckpoint.(the whole shoulder area gets more "crooked") We get the same effect by slashing and pivoting.
I encourage you to try both methods in a half scale pattern and compare them.
Quote from: peterle on May 22, 2020, 02:39:23 AM
Or is it just the small part that changes it´s position?
You always should add the desired amount at the place in the pattern where it is needed and it is needed in the middle of the front pattern and not at the CF or side seam.
Are you familiar with the position of the neckpoint in Rundschau coat patterns? It is determined by halving the front chest line and front belly line. Connecting these two points and carriing the line further to the shoulder line finds the neckpoint. So the wider the wider the CF belly point protrudes, the more outwards the position of the neckpoint.(the whole shoulder area gets more "crooked") We get the same effect by slashing and pivoting.
I encourage you to try both methods in a half scale pattern and compare them.
I am not familiar with any rundshau patterns, but this reminds me of a waistcoat draft that Mansie Wauch (not sure if I spelled his name correctly) posted on the old forum where the neck point was found in a similar method.
Quote from draft:
(Point 22 establishes the front neck position. The angle of the line coming up from the waist will alter if the waist is increased or decreased, this in effect will give you a more crookened neck point if the waist increases and a straighter neck if the waist decreases.)
I attach a corpulent draft. (I take this for sleepwear or piquee shirts.). Maybe it clears things a bit up
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/QFQ9HB7w/belly-draft.png) (https://postimg.cc/QFQ9HB7w)
Here I did the forward shoulder alteration and added to the CF at waistline.
Forgot to take a back picture...
I basted on some sleeves I had laying around, adjusted for sloping side through the natural shoulder line for now to check if my measurements are correct.
Oh and I added some darts to see what would happen.
My brain is spinning around from all the info.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWMsF32k/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWMsF32k)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8jgX2X4P/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jgX2X4P)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VJD7bf8d/SAM-0005.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VJD7bf8d)
Is that the method you were describing for slashing and pivoting?
Image on the left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TySvgq6L/012f0809e3ce02f4c0e5c86c72ff6707.png) (https://postimg.cc/TySvgq6L)
How do you like it?! How does it feel? Can you move your arms forward? The "balance" problems are gone now I think.
My proposal is, not to take out that much in the back dart; first because a deep dart causes ripples because of the uncut darted fabric, and second because it looks a bit to tight proportionally for my taste. A big dart also pronounces the round back. Taking out just a bit is often enough to get a slim silhouette, you don´t need to make it skintight.
Roughly yes to the left pic, but I would run the short part into the armhole, not the side seam. And I would add a lot less in your case.
I am still a bit unsure what I think of it.
Movability seems fine, though I didn't have much problems with my other shirts. I think I might need to test this in a final trial shirt with proper sleeves and collar sewn on.
I do see a big improvement in how the shoulders fit, so I am happy with that.
I think I need to widen the across back measurement. Probably 2 cm's each side.
The back armscye lies on the back, not where the arm meets the back muscles.
Are front and back side seams kept symmetrical in shirts?
I added 2 cm front balance in this muslin.
Though when I measured my balance i measured 0,5 cm front balance needed. Then again my measurements could be off due to me having to take them by myself.
I keep having some creases coming from the shoulder blade to below the armhole.
This disappears when I push some of the cloth at the side seam towards the back. Seems I need a bit less suppression at the back waist.
In the problem figur topic, they talked about a hollow back, and letting out the back waist seam by 5 mm and supressing the centre back 5 mm extra. This seems to move the waist ring forward a bit on the back pattern. I think I might need to do this on my waistcoats as well at some point.
Since there is no back pic, I can´t see wether the back is too narrow. But the folds at the front armhole seam indicate, that it could be good to shift the whole armhole a tad towards the front (about 1cm?) This would also enlargen the back. So keep the shoulder tips where they are, shift the lower part of the armhole forward (on the chest line) and reconnect with the shoulder tips. Keep the side seam also where it is.
You cant surpress the CB waist, because there is no CB seam on a shirt. Because your hip is in the norm position (vertical with the shoulderblades) You also can´t pinch out the back (same as in front but overlapping instead of opening) because you need the width at the hip. (When your hip were forward too, you could pinch the back).
When I have the change I'll ask someone to help me take front chest and back width measurements.
Should any ease be added when using these direct measurements into a pattern?
I want to learn how to do that eventually anyway.
I had taken the sleeves off and marked the waistline more clearly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3NB66fp/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3NB66fp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xr2WYcZy/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Xr2WYcZy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/94KjGmYm/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94KjGmYm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Js7m8dhL/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Js7m8dhL)
I see that your front is still rising. I attach a pic how I would tackle the problem. But I do not know if Peterle agrees because the front armhole is now straighter.
lg posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/CBZ5QPx8/front-rising.png) (https://postimg.cc/CBZ5QPx8)
Well, I´m not sure why the shirt seems to have a shorter front now. The balance in the pics with sleeves looked so much better. Also the side seam was running straight. In the newer pics it does not. Is it a balance problem? Or is the shirt not worn as it should?
Posaune, I´m not sure I get your sketch right: slashing the chestline, open it at the CF, keeping the old centerline, and remove the difference between old and new CF-line at the side seam?
Only the last part, Peterle. That should be a possibility - if it causes a "pregnant" look to took at side seam some of it out again.
lg
posaune
Hi All,
I have been following this from the early beginning; kudos for Kiem for your perseverance. It is very interesting to follow. In my, albeit limited, wisdom as a "ladies man" (fitwise that is) I would slash the pattern from the centerpoint like you did, but I would slash it towards the forearm point of the armhole and lower the whole front... Judging from the cording I would say it is missing height and movement there. So I think there is not enough front length between the forearm points,ehh so to speak...
Cheers, Hendrick
I am a bit puzzled by these things aswell.
Maybe It is because I removed the back darts on the sleeveless pictures.
And maybe I stood a bit more erect than in the other pictures? I am not completely sure.
I am thinking of making a new muslin sometime soon, incorporating some of the alterations that seem to work so far.
And adjust for the protruding belly in the way Peterle mentioned.
Maybe that will tidy things up a bit. If not It will be a fun (or frustrating) experiment :D
no, no it was tilted before too. lg posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/r03b2mjw/frontwaist.png) (https://postimg.cc/r03b2mjw)
I'm with Posaune, Add some where she tells you to slash the pattern. It seems the breastlenght is to short. This is called armsgatdiepte in Dutch and this is where usually this problem lies.
Posaune, I see you have the shirt front slashed at the chest line. Is this because you dont want to change the shape of the sleeve at the front?
Kiem, so you just added a wedge at the CF, and did not do the slash and pivot forward belly alteration yet? I would love to see the sleeveless version without the added wedge= with the old CF.
(My thoughts: adding the wedge to the CF is like pivoting the whole front around the CF-neckpoint and adds width also at the chestline. I would be very interested to compare it´s effects to the original CF version.)
Quote from: peterle on May 26, 2020, 10:52:15 PM
Kiem, so you just added a wedge at the CF, and did not do the slash and pivot forward belly alteration yet? I would love to see the sleeveless version without the added wedge= with the old CF.
(My thoughts: adding the wedge to the CF is like pivoting the whole front around the CF-neckpoint and adds width also at the chestline. I would be very interested to compare it´s effects to the original CF version.)
Yes, I basically let out the CF at the hem, to nothing at the neck hole.
Let out CF (just like the earlier pictures).
(https://i.postimg.cc/3d0VdzMP/Let-ouf-CF-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3d0VdzMP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BjWyDN4t/Let-ouf-CF-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BjWyDN4t)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SXkv1sXh/Let-ouf-CF-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SXkv1sXh)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dh8f9dV6/Let-ouf-CF-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dh8f9dV6)
Original CF (as per draft).
(https://i.postimg.cc/mcLmN5qZ/Original-CF-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcLmN5qZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jDrgC547/Original-CF-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jDrgC547)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dLCNqdrF/Original-CF-3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLCNqdrF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pyp163dp/Original-CF-4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pyp163dp)
Oh thanks, that was fast.
The main difference I see is that the original version doesn´t swing forward at the front hem (no surprise) but it also looks a bit smoother to me in the area above the front chestline.
Of course the front balance is yet too short. But I wonder all the time: Is your front neck at the right place? It seems so high in the pics. The collar seam should sit in the depression between chest and neck/ where neck and chest meet. Probably you should control if the draft of the front neckhole and shoulderline is correct. (my thoughts behind: maybe the front is too short and the neckhole is too high, because the front shoulder seam was drafted too low initially). BTW: wich system did you use?
Quote from: peterle on May 27, 2020, 03:00:49 AM
Oh thanks, that was fast.
The main difference I see is that the original version doesn´t swing forward at the front hem (no surprise) but it also looks a bit smoother to me in the area above the front chestline.
Of course the front balance is yet too short. But I wonder all the time: Is your front neck at the right place? It seems so high in the pics. The collar seam should sit in the depression between chest and neck/ where neck and chest meet. Probably you should control if the draft of the front neckhole and shoulderline is correct. (my thoughts behind: maybe the front is too short and the neckhole is too high, because the front shoulder seam was drafted too low initially). BTW: wich system did you use?
I wondered about the position of the neckhole myself, especially since I have the same issue on a draft. The problem is, that I don't know how to fix it properly. When I just cut it down where I think it should be the neck size is getting way too large. What do you mean by drafting the front shoulder seam too low, though?
OT Just a note to make more confusion :D
Recently we checked many formulas for calculating the neck: Not many could stand the criteria. Even with a proportional draft done after literature. Astonishing! My advice: Always check the circ.
(Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck)
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on May 27, 2020, 08:03:09 PM
OT Just a note to make more confusion :D
Recently we checked many formulas for calculating the neck: Not many could stand the criteria. Even with a proportional draft done after literature. Astonishing! My advice: Always check the circ.
(Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck)
lg
posaune
More enlightening, then confusing ;)
I tried some alterations of the neckhole on a previous draft and was always a little hesitent because shortening the front neckwidth will also changes the shoulder and in my case also the front armhole, which was rather loose afterwards. Is there any kind of helpful measuring etc pp to determine the shape of the neckhole? Changing the neckwidth in the front for example seems to result in a similar change you would do on a jacket for sloping postures according to King Wilson.
System is from Die gewandsammlung
My muslin is as the draft states, with the exception of the added 2 cm front balance and 8 cm total chest ease.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XpC5CDZt/shirt-draft.png) (https://postimg.cc/XpC5CDZt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nXfDYYBr/shirt-draft-instructions.png) (https://postimg.cc/nXfDYYBr)
They specify a seam allowance at the shoulder seams and armhole.
With my own measuring I came to 1 cm for both. Anything smaller and the neck hole becomes larger than the collar for the same size would be. Maybe I made a mistake there?!?
Then don't specify a measurement.
Posaune: Some times a smaller front neck width and a deeper front neck helps, especially with a forward neck.
That does make sense and I had been thinking about this before I went into the deep and dark fitting rabbit hole :P
I also think it is high in the front.
The few shirts I have made myself are all a bit uncomfortable in the front and I have the tendency to pull these down for some relieve.
I measure my neck hole as follows. Neck diameter (38 cm) : 6 + 1 cm.
I haver measured collars that fit me well from button to buttonhole edge and these measure at 38.
I have made larger collars, 39's and even a 40,5 cm and these are all too roomy.
I could try measuring my actual neck width with a caliper?!? rather than using formulas.
Quote from: Petruchio on May 27, 2020, 05:16:57 AM
What do you mean by drafting the front shoulder seam too low, though?
I just thought maybe a bit of the front shoulder got lost by mistake while drafting or while manipulating the shoulderline/front yoke seam line thing. So when the front balance is too short AND the front neckhole is too high probably there is something missing at the shoulder, making the the whole neck diameter too small and shortening the front at once. Mistakes happen also to experienced and rechecking is always a good thing.
OOps cross post.
Kiem, it´s not only the circumference of the neck. with a 38cm neck the cut through can be round but also oval, with a short horizontal axis and a long vertical axis or the other way round. All these forms can have 38cm circ. A calipher will help, but i´m not sure how to apply it´s front to back measurements to the pattern.
Wether the front neck is too high: Just close the shirt with a horizontal pin at the neckline when wearing and feel wether it sits in the groove or above.
Kiem there is no s.a. in the draft from gewandsammlung at the "shoulderseams and armhole" in my opinion. Maybe you misunderstood the terms there. I would be very surprised if there were.
lg posaune
Can someone clear this up for me??
I know a bit of german, and to me this seems like there IS a seam allowance at the shoulder and armhole seam?
Erklärungen
- alle Angaben in cm
- Schulternaht und Armloch = Anlegekante
(inklusive Naht)
- alle anderen Nähte sind ohne Nahtzugaben
Then again, I looked at the new website for die gewandsammlung, I posted a link in the, where to start shirt drafting topic, and there they offer the exact same draft ( I checked), and now it specifies there are no seam allowances...
So either I misunderstood from the start, or they changed a mistake...
I checked both versions, they are the same, except one specifies what i mentioned above, the newer version is identical but mentioned no seam allowances added.
The version I have i downloaded in 2016...
EDIT:
I drew out a neck hole that measures 38cm, used a 1,75 buttonstance at the CF
When I draft without a seam allowance I get a neck hole that measures 45,1
Where the collar, 38cm + double the button stance (3,5 cm) would be 41.5
That gives me 4 cm ease in the neck hole...
Funny thing is, I took apart a Profumo RTW shirt and measured it. It seems they used this gewandsammlung draft. Only difference is the placement of the yoke seam (10 cm down from back neck rather than 6 cm), and the ease around the body is reduced (around 6 cm rather than 16). The slope is 1 cm greater than the draft. Other than that it is as this draft, including a much much larger neck hole just as I measured in my little test.
I mentioned this earlier asking is this was normal, and Peterle mentioned that no ease is added to the neck hole. Post #27 and #28
Im confused hahahah
Kiem, I have drafted the neck hole regarding the construction. For a neck circ = 38 cm I get a neckhole circ about 40.5 cm.
Sp = 38/6 + 1 = 7.33. The back neckhole is derived from a rectangle 7,33 * 2 . The front is derived from a rectangle about 7,33*8.33
I attach a pic, red is the gewandsammlung neckhole, calculated for 38 neck = resulting circ is 40.5
the green is ours calculated for the same measure the resulting circ is 38.04. I have moved the black circ over the green.
As I written before I found not many neckholes formulars which gave the requiered results in my research.
This is the last pic: 3 different drafts. So the lowest is the best for a necksize about 42: it is Aldrich - but it makes the front neck very high. Sigh you can't have all.
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/5H5M0V8w/neckhole2.png) (https://postimg.cc/5H5M0V8w)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BP0LFsz4/neckhole3.png) (https://postimg.cc/BP0LFsz4)
Thnx Posaune,
A few things I figured out... The faulty use of a seam allowance did take out 2 cm in the front. That accounts for the missing length in the front.
I think I came to use these 1 cm seam allowances because that made the neck hole circa work for the collar size.
Other wise they are way to big, about 4 cm to large, using 4 seams of 1 cm gets rid of that "ease".
My neck is definitely longer than wide. more oval than round.
Anyway:
Can someone explain if I understood the german text in my previous post correctly?
Just to clear it up to me wether I misunderstood or if there was a faulty description.
I am going to make a new pattern, I might use a different draft to try out. Or perhaps I'll just pay around with the neck hole formulas to see which might work better for me.
1 problem identified, 100 left to solve hahahah
Once again thanks for all the help.
At some point I will post pictures of a finished shirt ;)
Kiem You are right, your instructions seem to indicate an included SA in the Shoulderseam. (BTW there is no shoulderseam, just a yoke seam. So I think it is a mistake in the instructions. I don´t know what the term "Anlegekante" means, maybe it derives from a coat draft )
But that´s good, Just let out the two SAs at the shoulder and your neckhole will go down and your front balance will enlarge a bit.
Maybe you´r interested: The neckhole of my own 38cm neck shirt: back: 6,6cm by 2cm, front 6,6cm by 8,5cm. gives a neckhole line of 41cm.
I have never heard it. It is maybe a special austrian term - or just a mistake.
It says: Anlegekante that means you put (at the yoke) the parts together at the edge. There is no seam between the front and back part. How can it be included ?????? But Peterle can maybe explain it, he has a tremendous knoledge in sewing and in languages and he is from Austria. Or it is just a mistake, which they have eliminated later.
I have never seen a garment in the "Waeschebereich" (and a shirt belonged in this section here in Germany- means underwear) which has included seam allowances.
lg
posaune
Peterle, your collar measurements are interesting. So in this formulas are the ease included that the collar will not strangle you. Now I'll have to search for my Lauerbook about shirts.
---------- after a while ---------------
Peterle, I have draft your neckhole taking what you wrote. Your neckhole measures 19,15 cm = 38,30 so it is correct. And it is nicely long in front.
so Kiem, finally we found what will work for your neck.
You are international shirt sleuths!🕵️♀️🕵🏼♂️🤔
Anlegekante translated by google means edge, Anlegekante sounds like "aanleg kant" in dutch. Where "kant" would mean, edge or side.
No wonder they changed this in their updates version.. the more you know :D
Peterle, Is your neck hole measurement including centre front overlap??
So then, is there any ease in the neck hole compared to the collar? In a earlier post you say there was not any ease.
Im smiling with one eye and crying with the other :P
Thanks everyone for helping me figure this out.
Posaune my neckhole is the result after fitting. I´ve looked it up in the instructions I used back then: It said 1/6 neck circumference as back and front horizontal amount. Back 2cm up, front down: 1/6 neckcircumference +3cm. (from"Herrenhemden in verschiedenen Formen" in DOB+haka praxis 3/73)
I never heard or read "Anlegekante" before, but it makes possibly sense in a coat draft: There usually only the front shoulder seam has an inlay, the back side is cut just with the SA so you can put the edge (=Kante) against(=anlegen) the chalkline for sewing the seam. Other possibility: it just means the fabric edge you line up the sewing foot edge with (SA=half the sewing foot width).
Anlegekante could mean abutment edge or guide edge.
https://dictionary.reverso.net/german-english/anlegekante
Kiem, no the measure is just to the center front line. The overlap is an individual model thing, so you have to add it like you want it.
Neckhole seam and collar stand seam have the same length in my patterns. You use the neckhole seamlength to draft the collar.
Quote from: peterle on May 29, 2020, 05:59:57 PM
Kiem, no the measure is just to the center front line. The overlap is an individual model thing, so you have to add it like you want it.
Neckhole seam and collar stand seam have the same length in my patterns. You use the neckhole seamlength to draft the collar.
Thnx that clears up my confusion.
There is a measure that I think would be handy. It's called the strap measure. It is from the nape down to the chest level at the vertical line of the scye. This measure shows if the that distance is correct, short or long. It is a check measure. It can be used for pattern making, too. In American patterns it is used with the blade measurement. From center back level across to the bottom strap measure point. I think these two measurements would help find problems. A couple of worthy "tools".
To get rid of some of the excess width in back the shoulder slope, armhole shape can be adjusted.
Thnx Greger, Unfortunately I don't have anyone to help me with measurements currectly. Seems impossible to do this by myself but I'll keep this in mind.
New muslin, new pattern, I put some of the alterations found in the previous muslin into the pattern to play around a bit. shirt fitting is becoming a bit boring :'(
narrower neck hole 6,6 by 2 back 6,6 by 8,3 front. Added a 38 cm collar stand which I had laying around.
I used the chest and back width calculation from the uni-shirt draft. Made the chest more narrow (based on previous muslin).
This time the front is done as I should have done.... yay
Added 1 cm front balance cause I thought I would need it.
Front is still short.
Some other things seem off as well.
Probably because I messed-up putting the alterations into the pattern, I guess I tried to do too much at once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RNbggCX0/SAM-0001.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNbggCX0)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G48qV05x/SAM-0002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G48qV05x)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G9K7sxDG/SAM-0003.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G9K7sxDG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WYfRck3/SAM-0004.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WYfRck3)
For the protruding belly, could I make a slash in the muslin and sew a piece of cloth behind that to test?
Or should I implement this into the pattern first?
I did NOT alter for my protruding belly in the red shirt.
Also, the method of shifting the pattern for a dropped shoulder, how does this work on the back part? Can someone explain please.
Once you have a draft on the go, do the alterations on the cloth first. As posaune says, you can thrash it to death. Most importantly, write down all your changes to the draft. At the end you create a pattern from the draft, with all its changes.
So, yes, it's expected that you may need to slash and fill.
Note that there is a difference between a draft and a pattern.
Maybe you should make the armhole just a centimeter deeper. It seems at that spot it still pulls. And make space fot your protruding shoulderblades. The front looks beter than your previous toile.
Before you do a forward belly alteration you should fix the balance. The front chestline is pulled up a bit in the middle and the back chestline is pulled up a lot in the middle. This tells me: Like Pfaff260 said the armholes are not deep enough. Make them deeper about1,5cm ( approximately the amount the front chest line is pulled up). The back balance needs additional elongation, another 2cm across the whole back (it lacks lenght over the shoulderblades).
ANd Yes, You are right, alterations should be done one by one, otherwise you can´t say what was right or wrong. So make these alterations first, it´s done in a few minutes. Afterwards we will see wether a dropped shoulder or forward belly is needed.
I played around with the previous muslin.
Let out the front to compensate for the non existing use of seam allowances :P
At this point I have 2 cm front balance.
I added an additional 2 cm front balance( that makes 4cm total) to see what would happen.
Results below.
2cm front balance
(https://i.postimg.cc/RqmrStkY/2cm.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RqmrStkY)
4 cm front balance
(https://i.postimg.cc/64cfwgkB/4cm.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64cfwgkB)
Front keeps kicking up.
I guess this proves that the problem is the CF length as Posaune mentioned earlier?
That cloth looks a lot more relaxed. Thats about what I need in the front too.
G
Too my untrained eye it looks as if the cf is sitting on the protruding belly. I think you should do the belly alteration and add some balance in the belly area, rather than in the chest area.
The second pic is a bit blurry, so I can´t see the chestline. I also think it´s the forward belly, so do the forward belly alteration I posted in # 64. (this will make the armhole a bit tighter) When You think you need more center length, use the point on the armhole line instead of the nipple point as pivot point, or use Posaune´s #82 version. The forward belly alteration should care for a bit more length in diagonal direction from the belly to the shoulderblades to get rid of these folds.
The neckhole seems to be in the right position now.