How about checking my math and answering a few questions before drafting using the Rundschau Cutting System?
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50623480_2470511429629877_7657244304364011520_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f2e5594c29f3bc76961d241e2c3e839a&oe=5D011D39)
I decided to switch to using metric, far easier and already seeing improvement. Also, see improvement in this system over Rhinehart as the distance between the second and third lines on the former is locked at 7.62cm where the latter is based on a formula (in my case comes out to 7.65cm). Further, if understand correctly, no defining the knee width.
Diagram 531
How is G to M determined?
Diagram 533
Though I am not sure about the inner seam. Is G1 connected to b, determining S2 and K2? Or in other words, how is the distance from S1 and S2 determined?
How is point 2 determined?
Diagram 533
Displace mean widen, as in the hem and knee?
Why is the hem displaced twice, a/b 2.5cm and then c/d 1cm?
For my particular case, should the square be placed at S or S5?
Diagram 535
B6 to B7, how do you choose between 2.5 and 3cm?
Is B7 to B4 the same as the width of the dart(s)?
Why is there two darts shown?
How are the darts placed?
Finally, how does this statement "a little shortness at the back crotch point" affect the draft? Please give specific points, I am a visual person, appreciated.
Thank you in advance! :)
M is the centre point between G-G1.
Quote from: Henry Hall on January 19, 2019, 07:41:02 AM
M is the centre point between G-G1.
Thank you.
So I asked too many questions? What then is the limit? Is it possible to break down into diagrams and still get them answered? Otherwise do not see using this system possible. :(
I feel dumb getting hung up, the answer comes as you draft. There are a few issues with the translation, once or twice had to come up with best guess. I can share these if desired. Over all, appreciative to Henry for sharing it, far better then the previous.
Further, I took pictures of where I had difficulty if any errors are apparent can discuss. If looks good to go, then will get cracking on the sloper.
I did add a total of 1,5cm to the side seam, 1cm in front and 0,5cm in the back, considering suggested to let out 2cm. Figured if not needed, noted where I had done this so could be reversed.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50556262_2471126796235007_2637166252535054336_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=23eeec9a22101d832789af3da027e292&oe=5CC0BF23)
My question is this: The instructions did not include the location of the darts, how are these determined?
Again, many thanks and appreciation!
I attach a draft. I have done the trouser after your measurements. (These are without seam allowances) I have copied the fly pattern. For the right side you must add an extra allowance at the fly seam - you need 1 cm at least here for hiding the zip. And I have given you the fly concept for a muslin. How to sew look up the side I gave you.
The darts are done where needed. In my pic it is front center waist because it will be a pleat. If no pleat I would place it about 6-8 cm from side seam. Back it is first dart center of back waist the the 2. center of remaining space. But this is only standard.
lg
posaune
sorry forgot, getting too old for this
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDVqXJ2N/trouseradr.png) (https://postimg.cc/dDVqXJ2N)
There are some important things to know:
1. When you add inlays for fitting you do this when cutting the muslin, not in the pattern. You just ads them outside of the marked pattern lines. At the top of the seat seam you should add an inlay of about 4cm (in the case a straighter seat is necessary).
2.Please notice the last sentence in the text. It means that You will sew 0,75cm inwards from the drafted lines( wich is usually half a sewing machine foot. so when you run the line along the right edge of the foot with the needle centered, the seam will be 0,75cm inwards) . Only the darts and the seat seam are sewing lines.
There are two darts in the back because there are 4cm leftover to be removed. This is too much for a single dart ,so it´s divided to two darts (2,5cm, 1,5cm). the main dart is approximately in the middle of the back waistline. The darts are strictly perpendicular to the waistline.
Flaws in your draft:
The lower part of your legs is not right. a, b , and d are the final points of the seamlines. When you do the straight provisorial lines you aim them 1cm inwards from a,b,c and d. When you draw the final seam lines you can follow the straight line first and then curve the line gently towards the hem so it ends perpendicular to the hemline in the points a,b,c and d.
The upper part of your front outseam is not right. Point G should be the most protruding point of the hip curve. The line should not protrude the vertical constructionline above point G.
When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.
Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.
Quote from: posaune on January 19, 2019, 09:17:14 PM
I attach a draft. I have done the trouser after your measurements. (These are without seam allowances) I have copied the fly pattern. For the right side you must add an extra allowance at the fly seam - you need 1 cm at least here for hiding the zip. And I have given you the fly concept for a muslin. How to sew look up the side I gave you.
The darts are done where needed. In my pic it is front center waist because it will be a pleat. If no pleat I would place it about 6-8 cm from side seam. Back it is first dart center of back waist the the 2. center of remaining space. But this is only standard.
lg
posaune
sorry forgot, getting too old for this
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDVqXJ2N/trouseradr.png) (https://postimg.cc/dDVqXJ2N)
Regarding making mistakes, I do too, sometimes wonder how the really dumb ones can even happen.
Fantastic! Appreciate you taking the time! :) Is there a larger picture, as when larger then preview I can't read... Great help seeing how the seams should be shaped and for the fly covers.
The instructions include the seam allowance, so why remove it?
Not sure how I would add a pleat, wasn't planning, though of course open to learning. :P ;)
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
There are some important things to know:
I could take offense for the suggestion I do not know how to operate a sewing machine and sew, though think had the best intentions and like me, presentation isn't a strong suit. :P
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
1. When you add inlays for fitting you do this when cutting the muslin, not in the pattern. You just ads them outside of the marked pattern lines. At the top of the seat seam you should add an inlay of about 4cm (in the case a straighter seat is necessary).
Greaat! Asked WA the inlay amount and here is the answer. :)
So no inlay on the side seams? Okay.
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PM2.Please notice the last sentence in the text. It means that You will sew 0,75cm inwards from the drafted lines( wich is usually half a sewing machine foot. so when you run the line along the right edge of the foot with the needle centered, the seam will be 0,75cm inwards) . Only the darts and the seat seam are sewing lines.
Okay.
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PMThere are two darts in the back because there are 4cm leftover to be removed. This is too much for a single dart ,so it´s divided to two darts (2,5cm, 1,5cm). the main dart is approximately in the middle of the back waistline. The darts are strictly perpendicular to the waistline.
There is only about 1,5cm of leftover.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50476256_2471917519489268_8254769023690997760_o.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=ef1a31005cc0d83c9ff6b7afc1d8222c&oe=5CC91DA1)
This is where the errors in the translation exist. On diagram 534, the angle of G2 to G3 is not defined (nor the distance between B1 to B3 though do not think need). Then on diagram 535, B6 to B7, doesn't mention 1/2cm on the diagram and which side the breath of the waist, assumed on the inside based on the diagram. So should the shortfall be 4cm?
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PMFlaws in your draft:
The lower part of your legs is not right. a, b , and d are the final points of the seamlines. When you do the straight provisorial lines you aim them 1cm inwards from a,b,c and d. When you draw the final seam lines you can follow the straight line first and then curve the line gently towards the hem so it ends perpendicular to the hemline in the points a,b,c and d.
I am sorry it was not clear that I followed the instructions, including aiming the line. I am having trouble with the back pattern getting the curves happy.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50182989_2471917452822608_496462322080940032_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=6815720e667045c3163f6799a5be7907&oe=5D0056A1)
Quote from: peterle on January 19, 2019, 09:38:46 PMThe upper part of your front outseam is not right. Point G should be the most protruding point of the hip curve. The line should not protrude the vertical constructionline above point G.
I thought it was? S2/S3 to G1 and S4 to G4 are guidelines, should they be a different colour?
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50899050_2471917162822637_8163215001138495488_o.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=5c59cc8f57ad6a69e8fba61713d6b36e&oe=5CFEEB79)
By the way, tried posting this morning and found out the servers had crashed. Glad able to save my post, one forum crashed so hard lost all the previous posts and all content. Bums me as was hoping to be already sewing.
Quote from: TTailor on January 20, 2019, 02:28:35 AM
When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.
Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.
I'm sure I recall reading this advice somewhere on your blog (?). Though it might have been elsewhere. I wanted to ask then why this would be necessary. Is this just because the given measurements are usually 'standard' measurements for a normal figure?
Redrafted four more times, first using 1,5cm above S, then had the idea to mess with the angle and tried 3cm, 6cm, and 7,5cm. I then got about 2cm, about 3cm, and 1cm in the same order. I find it interesting going more vertical gives more excess, until reaches too close to vertical, then quickly declines.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50485464_2472345189446501_7482441991570063360_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=603201eb5c249b517aa37aec163af911&oe=5CFAF3F2)
Find this also interesting as was given advice that with a flatter bum a more vertical fits better?
Or is the 5cm added to the seat to be taken up by the darts?
Thank you all in advance! :)
Quote from: Henry Hall on January 20, 2019, 10:47:44 AM
Quote from: TTailor on January 20, 2019, 02:28:35 AM
When you use a new (to you) drafting system, It is always best to use the measurments given in the sample and forllow the draft using those numbers.
Do it once do it twice or even more because you need to understand how the draft works and whether you are following/understanding it properly. It helps to focus your questions.
Then, when drafting to individual measurements, look at how they compare to the standard ones in the draft. Then you have to determine how to approach the draft for a different body shape.
I'm sure I recall reading this advice somewhere on your blog (?). Though it might have been elsewhere. I wanted to ask then why this would be necessary. Is this just because the given measurements are usually 'standard' measurements for a normal figure?
I suggest drafting to the given numbers just for the understanding of it all.
The draft gives clues to what the draft considers standard.
I have seen many people (beginners) who have non standard measurements try to apply them to a draft that they have found only to get confused when their pattern doesnt follow the "plan"
If one starts with a comparison of these numbers one can identify in advance the changes that will appear when drafting.
Example: the draft shows a waist of 32 and a hip 38" as "standard" proportion but the taken measurements Are 32" waist and 42" hip or perhaps 39" waist and 38" hip. Following the draft as written will give very different placement of seam lines from what you see with the standard numbers.
Yes Terri, that's it. We did draw patterns with a scale 1:4 with standard measurements and did the "big" pattern (with body measurements) only after we had checked the draft.
Another remark: If you draft a "big" trouser pattern, you draft first the front pattern. You cut out the front pattern and fasten it to another sheet of paper. You draw the hip, knee, waist line, center lines longer on both sides and start to draft the back pattern using the front as template. So your front pattern stays okay and you do not need to copy the back pattern.
and bravo Adriel: you have found one of the "switches" in the draft for indivuell fitting. But the steepness of the back crotch depends also on the style of the trouser.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on January 21, 2019, 02:32:52 AM
[...]
and bravo Adriel: you have found one of the "switches" in the draft for indivuell fitting. But the steepness of the back crotch depends also on the style of the trouser.
lg
posaune
For a moment there, thought was going to be ignored, though the question on darts was not answered. Thank you for the complement. As I understand from WA, the steep vertical is for workwear and riding trousers as less pull in the crotch and the reverse is for dress trousers. I had the thought last night to make both and see how they fit. Can I use a one layer waistband just to hold them for the first fitting?
So where is center front of the trouser on this system?
Thank y'all in advance! :)
Center front of the trousers is the finished fly seam from the waist to the crotch point. It is 0,75cm inwards from B1-S2 and b2-S3.
Don´t mess it up with the front center line, wich is M1-M2.
Quote from: peterle on February 22, 2019, 12:54:44 AM
Center front of the trousers is the finished fly seam from the waist to the crotch point. It is 0,75cm inwards from B1-S2 and b2-S3.
Don´t mess it up with the front center line, wich is M1-M2.
Wahoooooooooooooooooooooooooo, a reply! ;D Thank you for the help, appreciated! :)
So what happens to the addition on the left, please? Or that is zipper laid on center front so left side covers?
Using the instructions given by posaune and Peter, here is the results.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52774121_2534831936531159_8017434366479171584_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=e0641345197fd2698d77257bdbea2771&oe=5CDA7576)
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52968538_2534837009863985_5025313045732130816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=da856417a54857fe74cb360b52cdd09e&oe=5CDAF798)
In my taste, would like more fabric covering the exterior of the zipper, can I add to the pattern front without affecting fit?
Thank y'all in advance! :)
For getting the zipper better covered:
Thread mark the center front line of both topsides.
Fold the fly of the right topside parallely to this thread mark, but about 5-7mm away.
Now place the zipper in a way that the zipper teeth and the fold are 3mm apart. Baste. Also baste the underlap. Sew.
When sewing the other part of the zipper to the left topside, be sure the center front lines lay on top of each other.
Thus the zipper dissapears under the overlap.
A quite detailed book about making tailored garments is " Basic tailoring " by time life. It´s easy to get and usually quite cheap. Get one.
Quote from: peterle on February 27, 2019, 08:51:13 PM
For getting the zipper better covered:
Thread mark the center front line of both topsides.
Fold the fly of the right topside parallely to this thread mark, but about 5-7mm away.
Now place the zipper in a way that the zipper teeth and the fold are 3mm apart. Baste. Also baste the underlap. Sew.
When sewing the other part of the zipper to the left topside, be sure the center front lines lay on top of each other.
Thus the zipper dissapears under the overlap.
Okay, very similar method, only difference is the CF is sewn shut, zipper first basted on the right with it placed to the left per the instructions:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwW5s8Gf/hoseschllibein2.png).
The concern is the tape barely reaches onto the right seam, so if move 7cm away, leaves 0,5cm of right fabric onto which to attach the zipper.
Thus the question which once again not being answered: can width be added so long as the CF stays the same?
Quote from: peterle on February 27, 2019, 08:51:13 PMA quite detailed book about making tailored garments is " Basic tailoring " by time life. It´s easy to get and usually quite cheap. Get one.
I can't find if uses the Rundschau Cutting System, does it?
The "problem" is the texts and your instructions do not include zipper width (here in the States could differ from on the Continent) or use the Rundschau Cutting System in telling
exactly where to place on the pattern with pictures. Posaune did this and makes sense then only have 0,75cm covering the zipper. For some this be just fine, however, I am very particular and unwilling to accept a basic understanding (my personality needs a full understanding and has difficulty with it is). I have used every last scrap of muslin, hopefully my stipend arrives mid next week and can order more muslin, never thought I use this much! LOL
However, will put this on the list of texts and appreciate knowing of it, thank you. :)
Adriel, have you considered using bed sheets for muslins? Often you can get bed sheets still in good condition at the thrift stores or at yard sales. Yard sales might be cheaper though. Peter Lappin from "Male Pattern Boldness" blog has used them quite successfully.
As for the zipper, there are oodles of tutorials on putting in the fly front zipper. Try the "Closet Case Patterns" blog. Yes, they are women's pants but she has both the jeans fly front where the zipper is set in more and the ladies trouser where the zipper is close to centerline. They are step by step and loaded with pictures. As an unrepentant home sewist I use any help I can get.
Theresa in Tucson
Quote from: theresa in tucson on February 28, 2019, 01:50:03 AM
Adriel, have you considered using bed sheets for muslins? Often you can get bed sheets still in good condition at the thrift stores or at yard sales. Yard sales might be cheaper though. Peter Lappin from "Male Pattern Boldness" blog has used them quite successfully.
As for the zipper, there are oodles of tutorials on putting in the fly front zipper. Try the "Closet Case Patterns" blog. Yes, they are women's pants but she has both the jeans fly front where the zipper is set in more and the ladies trouser where the zipper is close to centerline. They are step by step and loaded with pictures. As an unrepentant home sewist I use any help I can get.
Theresa in Tucson
Theresa, have a cousin and his boy in Sierra Vista, though four hour drive for me.
I am reading Peter Lappin's blog and have contacted him, however, never used a pattern with differing sides so was unable to help.
I didn't see bedsheets on his blog, though on a YouTube. My thing is money was tight and when I go to a thrift store, got to go look at the sartorial clothing (especially since my size is so rare). :P Never found a suit (sadly the pants were the wrong ones) though sport coats for $5. Did get a perfect condition tick tweed suit off eBay for $10, I just needed to take in the waist (while at it removed the belt loops) and now the best fitting suit along with Opa's DB. Looks like half price Saturday was last week, March calendar not up, so probably two Saturdays away based on every other. Be fun to get out there, even if exhausting.
Putting on is not the issue, it is getting the coverage from the pattern. Closet Case looks like using their own pattern versus a drafted so still having not found a tutorial which included the drafting, can you please provide where?
In the end, rather just adjust what I have then have to draft a whole new especially if all adding mean fitting again.
5mm folded back is enough, because you topstitch the fold at it´s very edge when you sew the right tape. When you are insecure, just cut the inlay a bit wider, so you can tuck under a bit more.
Please inform yourself how to sew a zipper for pants. In Your pics I see a fraying edge at the left zipper tape, there should not be one. And I don´t see a topstitching line at the right zipper tape, but there should be one.
What is the reason you are unable to indulge my question? Of course not critical, just trying to know what questions I am allowed to ask, please. Rather not break these hidden rules in the future and cause folks discomfort.
Quote from: peterle on February 28, 2019, 06:01:17 AM5mm folded back is enough, because you topstitch the fold at it´s very edge when you sew the right tape. When you are insecure, just cut the inlay a bit wider, so you can tuck under a bit more.
First, what is fold back?
Second, how does extending the right not add bulk to the CF? Mean, shouldn't the left be the only cover as per the note? Or are you saying instead match left to right?
I did not topstitch as didn't understand affect enough and why waste thread and time? However, of course did so could see what you mean and do see improvement as the zipper teeth are covered.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52838922_2536106336403719_6318127626649075712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=9ed030631217934298e8d167688aedac&oe=5CE259AC)
Though if compare to the flannels worn today, the zipper itself shows on the muslin and not the OTR.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52838912_2536115009736185_494386087645413376_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=345c5b2c23f01c8f8826a43bac67dcc5&oe=5CDD86FF)
If look at the flannels wearing today, have about twice as much zipper coverage.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52861325_2536112336403119_5811329787892858880_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=8fa4a85073d66dcee03e1b617f042ea6&oe=5D2591DA)
Quote from: peterle on February 28, 2019, 06:01:17 AMPlease inform yourself how to sew a zipper for pants. In Your pics I see a fraying edge at the left zipper tape, there should not be one. And I don´t see a topstitching line at the right zipper tape, but there should be one.
Please don't be disparaging, I am informed just not on matching the books, PDFs, and images to the Rundschau as I said. Glad to know the
The Art of Sewing Basic Tailoring uses the Rundschau, be a huge help.
Rather, how about helping me be more informed? If you like, be willing to take apart and show you I can, especially if leads to correction.
As to the fraying, zipper tapes here in the States come in one color, matching the teeth to the pull, to the tape. The fraying instead the Übertritt as per these instructions:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRQsrjc0/hoseschllibein.png).
Interesting on the Continent the tape is a different colour then the rest. Fun learning these little facts.
I just want you to do a good fly, that´s why I talk about the mistakes.
A good method to do a suit trouser fly is shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ItX5EP08o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ItX5EP08o)
For modern trousers just skip the left topside extension and cut both topsides the same. It´s easier and even Rundschau doesn´t do the addition to the left topside anymore.
Quote from: peterle on February 28, 2019, 10:26:19 PM
I just want you to do a good fly, that´s why I talk about the mistakes.
I do too, why came here to inquire if had and how to fix the one I knew of, despite the risk. Glad and appreciative on the same page.
The only thing is, I am not seeing a list of mistakes, though the video does make it more clear.
Quote from: peterle on February 28, 2019, 10:26:19 PMA good method to do a suit trouser fly is shown here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ItX5EP08o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-ItX5EP08o)
I watched a few of his, kept getting distracted by practices I would not think a tailor do, including horrible wardrobe choices, never watched another after a couple few dozen. Since required material, did, and has to be one of his best. :)
I have been given about six eight methods (including the book I purchased on trouser sewing by Coffin) and say this one is interesting attaching the zipper to the flies on both sides, does make more sense.
What is missing is the right side top stitching distance from the edge to create the left overlap, would assume the 0,75cm SA.
My question is, on the Rundschau, can the crotch also use a 1cm SA?
Would that then give instead of a 0,75cm left cover 1cm?
Quote from: peterle on February 28, 2019, 10:26:19 PMFor modern trousers just skip the left topside extension and cut both topsides the same. It´s easier and even Rundschau doesn´t do the addition to the left topside anymore.
Hmmm, since when do I prefer the easier way? :P How does the methods differ? Does it affect the appearance of the fly?
I was going to post this yesterday, glad didn't. Going ahead and hopefully not distract.
(https://scontent.fhhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52951208_2535700013111018_2156106456271683584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-1.fna&oh=1f508d06180c0bac8d47bde737f154b0&oe=5CE7290D)
Darn, now instead of the usual of image not posting, cutting it off. LOL Here is the link: https://scontent.fhhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52951208_2535700013111018_2156106456271683584_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-1.fna&oh=1f508d06180c0bac8d47bde737f154b0&oe=5CE7290D.
Peter, got two mockups done. Man, so appreciative you gave the best method for Rundschau! :D
This one regretfully used the added:
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53048598_2539597322721287_5598437471734988800_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=9a8d3ed5cd7429cf2e3f52415f296006&oe=5CE2779C)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52898358_2539597516054601_1985460756992229376_o.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=8742038a279f9123a36102d6b6b69a9d&oe=5D1A39D3)
Despite being sick and still, still got this one done. Seems the tension needs to be adjusted, plus a couple other obvious mistakes. Though, shows have the basic concept down and no changes to the draft needed like thought because of the first using the book (calling for sewing CF together).
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53279108_2539597696054583_6402870720128352256_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=02347dd8874aef0b900c7e71b977dd8b&oe=5CE07465)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52902737_2539597859387900_5912391716987469824_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=aea236878adb50536945ef986c9b0452&oe=5D273EE6)
Now looking forward getting more practice and getting better and better. Also feel like interfacing adding some thickness help. That will also be fun trying different from this soft front to stiffer front. If that makes any sense...
On the right side I would sew the seam much closer to the edge of the fold, and as close as possible to the zip.
On your next try I expect you will make the seams straighter and neater but that looks basically correct.
You could pan out the image some more to show the bottom end.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 02, 2019, 11:05:12 PM
On the right side I would sew the seam much closer to the edge of the fold, and as close as possible to the zip.
The difficulty I have is at the top there is a stop wider then the teeth my machine will not go over. Any tips please?
Could I even skip the top stitching the right side until the left was done?
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 02, 2019, 11:05:12 PMOn your next try I expect you will make the seams straighter and neater but that looks basically correct.
The last one kept having the thread break as tired and mind in a fog, so have to restart. Towards the end just wanted to be done and see the difference. Also, just slapped on the iron and now thinking caused some of the puckering as wasn't there until after pressing (heat all the way up and most steam).
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 02, 2019, 11:05:12 PMYou could pan out the image some more to show the bottom end.
How about these pictures?
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/53178301_2540530259294660_5684474269493362688_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=009b0ef48a0897f11efb08c663be040a&oe=5CDE14F0)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52935449_2540533022627717_3292646586244399104_o.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=d62943eb1fd3c5e2fa1901e6659dd4a0&oe=5CE7EC6D)
You should be using a zipper foot so you can get closer to the teeth of the zip. Even then...you shouldn't have that little flap. If you don't have a zipper foot try hand-sewing the zip in first (just quick stitches) so you can see how it should look.
A zipper foot is a common accessory with most machines, so there must be one in the accessory box. If your machine takes singer feet, you'll definitely find one in the box of an old machine.
I can sew a zip on with a normal foot. Mine is fairly narrow.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 03, 2019, 08:00:15 AM
You should be using a zipper foot so you can get closer to the teeth of the zip. Even then...you shouldn't have that little flap. If you don't have a zipper foot try hand-sewing the zip in first (just quick stitches) so you can see how it should look.
A zipper foot is a common accessory with most machines, so there must be one in the accessory box. If your machine takes singer feet, you'll definitely find one in the box of an old machine.
I can sew a zip on with a normal foot. Mine is fairly narrow.
I have two or three zipper feet (came on or with machines) and do use the narrowest.
Let me see if can get the video onto the desktop, the Macintosh isn't pulling them off the card. If so, then can do one on what I am talking about.
By the way, have at least one trouser with a flap, good to know not supposed to be, appreciated.
Well with a zipper foot you should be within a millimetre or two of the zipper teeth. It's impossible not to be.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 03, 2019, 09:11:15 AM
Well with a zipper foot you should be within a millimetre or two of the zipper teeth. It's impossible not to be.
Domestic or industrial? I am using a domestic and a zipper foot and requires pushing into the foot. Still waiting for the video to upload, says another hour and a half to go, otherwise add another. Or would it be better on the whole operation?...
Is there also a difference in the feed dogs? Mine will not start at the top of the tape and go over the stop, totally jambs.
If so, another reason for an industrial, though don't think a good investment at this point of my learning.
Over the stop? You don't need to run the foot over any metal. Just along the tape.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 03, 2019, 07:36:22 PM
Over the stop? You don't need to run the foot over any metal. Just along the tape.
Thus why I was trying to get these uploaded so we could have better communication. The first is about a minute and just shows and the second is lengthy as my first demonstration video plus reaching around the tripod.
https://youtu.be/Idx4Mt37vxY
https://youtu.be/K7_omNz0oJo
In short, where does one start machine stitching the tape?
Appreciated! :)
I assume this is just for demonstration purposes and you know that the zip is stitched on the right topside with right sides of zip and topside (as opposed to wrong sides) facing each other? And that it is then turned back for top-stitching?
The top stop is not in the way, you will be stitching with the zip face-down so the foot won't touch it. There will also be enough of a tape margin to allow you easy access; even when the zip is turned-back and top-stitched (by hand or machine).
Before you get yourself into a muddle (and end up asking to get out of the muddle!) go and read the section in Cabrera about attaching a zip. It is super clear. Read it as many times as necessary. I guarantee you it will be better than muddling through with explanations and questions on here.
Henry Hall, I have learned that ' muddling through' is a foriegn concept to Americans, with the greatest respect.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 04, 2019, 09:45:05 PM
I assume this is just for demonstration purposes and you know that the zip is stitched on the right topside with right sides of zip and topside (as opposed to wrong sides) facing each other? And that it is then turned back for top-stitching?
First, yes, demonstration only. Second, the instructions I have no turn back and top stitch, instead the zip is flat on both facings and/or linings, which are then sewn onto the self.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 04, 2019, 09:45:05 PMThe top stop is not in the way, you will be stitching with the zip face-down so the foot won't touch it. There will also be enough of a tape margin to allow you easy access; even when the zip is turned-back and top-stitched (by hand or machine).
On my zips, the stop is the same right or wrong side. I take it then do not stitch starting before the stop and instead move the topstitch step to after setting the zip to attach the zip fully?
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 04, 2019, 09:45:05 PMBefore you get yourself into a muddle (and end up asking to get out of the muddle!) go and read the section in Cabrera about attaching a zip. It is super clear. Read it as many times as necessary. I guarantee you it will be better than muddling through with explanations and questions on here.
As we have seen, wouldn't be the first time muddling, can be quite fun for all! :P lol
On a serious note, looked for "Cabrera" and only found sport related return on a internet search... So, how about pointing me in the right direction?
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 04, 2019, 11:58:38 PM
Henry Hall, I have learned that ' muddling through' is a foriegn concept to Americans, with the greatest respect.
As time goes on, learned I am more European than American (and grew up more European then American). Can't even stand to drive a domestic, instead, I drive either Mercedes or Volkswagen. With those, at times can be muddling. :P
Though seems less muddling through with the videos then words, saw it coming unlike previous.
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AM
First, yes, demonstration only. Second, the instructions I have no turn back and top stitch, instead the zip is flat on both facings and/or linings, which are then sewn onto the self.
I don't know what this means. It has to be stitched on right side-to-right side and folded back on itself. You can see this by looking at any ordinary pair of trousers. Look at the Cabrera.
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AMOn my zips, the stop is the same right or wrong side. I take it then do not stitch starting before the stop and instead move the topstitch step to after setting the zip to attach the zip fully?
It does not matter. Your foot won't even be impeded by the stop because it doesn't touch it. There was also no need to wrestle the zip under the foot in the manner it was done in the video. Just leave it open and sew it on.
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AMOn a serious note, looked for "Cabrera" and only found sport related return on a internet search... So, how about pointing me in the right direction?
There is a link to the book on this forum in the section about books. Did you look or do a forum search? I shall give you the direct link to it on the archive here (https://archive.org/details/pdfy-LeJSGymvA1pvu1KI).
Read the section on inserting a zip and indeed the entire section on constructing a pair of trousers. Read it more than once and at least try it out. Stop making things difficult for yourself.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 03:32:34 AM
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AM
First, yes, demonstration only. Second, the instructions I have no turn back and top stitch, instead the zip is flat on both facings and/or linings, which are then sewn onto the self.
I don't know what this means. It has to be stitched on right side-to-right side and folded back on itself. You can see this by looking at any ordinary pair of trousers. Look at the Cabrera.
Have you seen the video Peter posted from the English "Tailor"? If not, then makes sense especially if his method is unique. He does not fold back the zipper.
I went and looked at my collection and there are some where the zipper is not folded back. I never noticed the fold, can see it as double the bulk of a flat tape plus on those where not folded, can see the width of the tape at the edge of the facing. I don't know why I didn't see this before...appreciated! :)
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 03:32:34 AMQuote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AMOn my zips, the stop is the same right or wrong side. I take it then do not stitch starting before the stop and instead move the topstitch step to after setting the zip to attach the zip fully?
It does not matter. Your foot won't even be impeded by the stop because it doesn't touch it. There was also no need to wrestle the zip under the foot in the manner it was done in the video. Just leave it open and sew it on.
Even if left open there is a stop at the top and bottom to contend with, unless only doing the middle to hold it until top stitching? That has been the question since before the videos:
Where does the first zipper stitching start and end?Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 03:32:34 AMQuote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 02:06:39 AMOn a serious note, looked for "Cabrera" and only found sport related return on a internet search... So, how about pointing me in the right direction?
There is a link to the book on this forum in the section about books. Did you look or do a forum search? I shall give you the direct link to it on the archive here (https://archive.org/details/pdfy-LeJSGymvA1pvu1KI).
Read the section on inserting a zip and indeed the entire section on constructing a pair of trousers. Read it more than once and at least try it out. Stop making things difficult for yourself.
I knew that name sounded familiar!
Read the text and I am not seeing where specifically states where to start and stop the zipper stitching?
Remember, I am mentally challenged, rather then trying to make difficult, need to know specifics. That is why I loose employment as no employer will give instructions or rules I can understand and so I am terminated less than a week from starting; had it happen many times and given up accepting my mental ability is not sufficient for being employed.
For example, instead of sew the zipper on, rather, start the stitching from x and go to y. Verstehen dich meine Hilfe? (If I remember my German correctly...just having fun.)
Danke! :D
Well look at it this way: the instructions anyone is going to give are no clearer or much different to the way Cabrera's book shows how to do it. The instructions are step-by-step.
The problem of the stopper etc, is a non-problem. That top stopper is about 0-6mm from the bottom of the finished waistband when complete. The loose tape above it is diverted into the waistband and sewn inside it to hide it. The sewing obviously starts at the point at the top of the zip wherever you have placed it.
Your presser foot doesn't hit the metal or need to divert away from it because you are nowhere near the metal teeth when sewing. If you were that close the tape would disappear when it is turned back!
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 04:15:37 AM
Well look at it this way: the instructions anyone is going to give are no clearer or much different to the way Cabrera's book shows how to do it. The instructions are step-by-step.
I feel almost as comfortable with the steps as brushing my teeth, however, it is the fine technique which I am in the dark. Doesn't help YouTube videos are in 240 quality... :P
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 04:15:37 AMThe problem of the stopper etc, is a non-problem. That top stopper is about 0-6mm from the bottom of the finished waistband when complete. The loose tape above it is diverted into the waistband and sewn inside it to hide it. The sewing obviously starts at the point at the top of the zip wherever you have placed it.
Your presser foot doesn't hit the metal or need to divert away from it because you are nowhere near the metal teeth when sewing. If you were that close the tape would disappear when it is turned back!
Oh! you are turned 90 degrees from where I am, no wonder your confused, sorry.
How about where is the needle first dropped? As is in, how far down the length, so the width is set via the teeth?
To make an extreme point, if one had a 30cm fly zipper and sewed the center 5cm, the waistband seam and the crotch seam could not hold all the looseness.
Could the topstitching?
I cannot fathom what you are asking. I don't know what you mean by: 'sew the centre'. The centre of what? The sewing starts at the top and ends at the fly notch. Where else could it go?
I can only say again that you must read Cabrera or Rhinehart or any description of how to sew in a zipper. It is on page 197-199 of Cabrera and clearly shows how to trim the zip tapes; where to place the zipper and fly pieces; where to sew on both topsides.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 05:00:00 AM
I cannot fathom what you are asking. I don't know what you mean by: 'sew the centre'. The centre of what? The sewing starts at the top and ends at the fly notch. Where else could it go?
I can only say again that you must read Cabrera or Rhinehart or any description of how to sew in a zipper. It is on page 197-199 of Cabrera and clearly shows how to trim the zip tapes; where to place the zipper and fly pieces; where to sew on both topsides.
As I said, none of the half dozen or dozen books I have access to include the instructions of where to start and stop the zipper stitching. None. All the texts say stitch, though not exactly where. No specifics. including Cabrera or Rhinehart (the latter I have a PDF copy of). I doubt any have it, most be taught sewing zippers before sewing a fly.
So just force the zipper stops over the feed dogs? That will not hurt them? How then keep the stitching even as takes a lot to pull through especially when the stop catches. Or must I have a machine which can drop the feed dogs in order to sew zippers?
I'm tired of repeating it now. The zipper stops do not make any contact with the feed dogs or the foot! The Cabrera text has a drawing which shows exactly where to start stitching: not on, but close to the teeth, which means near the zip. As close as good without running the foot over the zip.
Rhinehart's text specifically says a 'scant 1/4" seam along the matched edges of the topside/zip tape/fly piece. I've just looked at the page with my own eyes!
Obviously if the zip part being sewn is easier to sew with the zip in the other side of the foot to keep it out of the dogs, that's what you do. It's just common sense.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 06:14:17 AM
I'm tired of repeating it now. The zipper stops do not make any contact with the feed dogs or the foot! The Cabrera text has a drawing which shows exactly where to start stitching: not on, but close to the teeth, which means near the zip. As close as good without running the foot over the zip.
Rhinehart's text specifically says a 'scant 1/4" seam along the matched edges of the topside/zip tape/fly piece. I've just looked at the page with my own eyes!
Obviously if the zip part being sewn is easier to sew with the zip in the other side of the foot to keep it out of the dogs, that's what you do. It's just common sense.
How about me repeating the question because getting caught in detail rather than concept? Or having to say I am not asking about bloody SAs?
So the SA not only applies to along the zipper, though also to the distance from the stops? Meaning, start stitching a quarter inch down from the stop?
As to common sense, it's common sense the stop has enough thickness that is not absorbed by the fabric no matter which side turned, at least on the Singer I am using. Further, I would have thought of an SA as being only distance from the teeth, not also the starting and stopping points. Remember, I am mentally retarded, so I am not common.
Adriel, I think you may be over complicating things. Stitch through the zipper tape from a little above the top stop to a little below the bottom stop. Your bottom stop should be positioned so it sits a little above the point where the center front crotch seam stitches end. You don't want to hit the stop with your needle when you are putting in topstitching. To avoid having to stitch around the zipper pull I usually use a zipper longer than what is required and remove the excess length and teeth when I attach the waistband. In that case I start my stitching at the front waist seam line and end a little past the bottom stop.
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 07:41:29 AM
As to common sense, it's common sense the stop has enough thickness that is not absorbed by the fabric no matter which side turned, at least on the Singer I am using. Further, I would have thought of an SA as being only distance from the teeth, not also the starting and stopping points. Remember, I am mentally retarded, so I am not common.
Well, you seem to have the common sense to correct my wrong answers. I wish you would just follow the very simple instructions and save yourself much frustration and misery.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 08:25:33 AM
Quote from: Adriel on March 05, 2019, 07:41:29 AM
As to common sense, it's common sense the stop has enough thickness that is not absorbed by the fabric no matter which side turned, at least on the Singer I am using. Further, I would have thought of an SA as being only distance from the teeth, not also the starting and stopping points. Remember, I am mentally retarded, so I am not common.
Well, you seem to have the common sense to correct my wrong answers. I wish you would just follow the very simple instructions and save yourself much frustration and misery.
I will give you half of touché. :P
The simple instructions are not simple for this simple person. Especially when told to get the stitches right next to the zipper and then someone else says to be a quarter inch away. If right next to, the stops do get in the way. If a quarter inch SA, can sew right past them. Das ist alles.
Must be nice being neurotypical and able to be part of society and usefully productive to the society.
I'm not neurotypical, but I like simplicity. Let's stick to the tailoring though.
You'll have to be prepared for several sources with minor differences leading to the same ends. Remember what the end is and then just choose the method which seems most appropriate to your needs. Since it isn't hands-on with a teacher, some of it will be a bit of trial-and-error and working things out by trying.
Quote from: Henry Hall on March 05, 2019, 08:50:15 AM
I'm not neurotypical, but I like simplicity.
Yes I forgot already...sorry. And I like to know, sometimes just to know.
Take for instance apparently can jump the stop by lifting up the pressure foot a little while hand turning the flywheel. Because of this desire to know, know now not only for zippers, though could see this getting onto a thick shoulder pad.
Adriel, all the way through making clothes there are guides that are used. Notches are very important. Without them, "landmarks", tailors would be lost. The notches are cut on paper and on the cloth they are tinny nicks or hand sewn tailor tacs (thread). Close to the bottom of where the zipper goes on the paper pattern should be a notch, which should have been transferred to the cloth with a tac right after cutting. You should have tacs at the knees, too, front and back, both sides, and wherever the directions said to put them. Therefore, along the front forks of the pants there should be one on each front panel. You should also have two fly pieces (main cloth) that are also notched. One of these fly pieces a piece of pocketing is sewn to it. Follow the directions for this. At the bottom of the zipper teeth is a metal clip, which is placed so far above the notch of the pants. Depending on which directions you are using, other directions may have a different height. With hand needle and thread based the zipper to pants. Next, place the fly piece (with pocketing, and pocketing pushed out of the way) with notches together and bace. Now you can sew from notch to top depending on the directions. Waistbands are put in different ways, so it depends on the directions. That's for one side. Later, the other side is done.