Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

Long story short, seam ripped a pair of damaged pants and used for the start of a pattern, then increased the rise. However, there is pulling in the back seat as seen in this old photograph (I can get one at waist height if a must).

(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49298178_2460031017344585_6874548641369948160_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=9e65d61eb0e79e7a0c5e3cc51fa54f52&oe=5CC494C6)

Boiled down to using these instructions: http://trantanphat.com/tailoring/drafting/trousers_insts.html. However, being a visual person, not quite understanding these instructions: "The seat seam (back rise) follows the straight line M - 10 , becomes a shallow curve just outside the 10 - 5 curve of the front, and runs through 5 into 23, finishing up straight for about the last 1" (2.6 cm)."

This is what I have right now.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49900289_2464872433527110_2463379450398507008_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=13752cbf65decb011b59d16045593344&oe=5CCFC169)

Thank y'all in advance!  :)

That pattern and the manner of doing the back parts is adapted from the pattern in Jane Rhinehart's book. You can get a link to the entire book elsewhere on this site.

You can see on the draft that the seat curve is much straighter than the one you have. You don't have to follow that particular round curve of the French curve. The curve you have is too hollow and will be tight when sewn-up. You're going to have to draft the pattern like it is on the draft you're using if this is going to work.

Have a look at some other drafts. Maybe Mansie's draft at Cutter & Tailor (is that draft her too?). Post a full picture of your entire draft so it can be seen.

First of all, there will always be pulling in the back of trousers when you try to climb a chair. This is not a matter of fit, it´s just how trousers work.

For judging the fit and to give fitting advice we have to see you wearing the muslin in a natural pose, standing on both feet, arms naturally hanging at your sides, feet not too close together. Front, back and profile pics.

I think the muslin of your pics would be a good starting point.

Here is the 1959 Rundschau Trouser Draft - in English:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3kfqih9vzos2oz/rundschau-system-for-trousers-1959-tabloid.pdf?dl=0

It is old, the legs are a bit wider etc, but it is a good method to follow.

One problem I had with Mansie's draft mentioned above, is that it removes 3 cm height at the waistband right at the start.

G

Get your camera up at the level of a table top.

Got to love technology. Found the forum default is no notifications, correct that, and email takes a whole day to come through... LOL

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 16, 2019, 05:50:20 AM
That pattern and the manner of doing the back parts is adapted from the pattern in Jane Rhinehart's book. You can get a link to the entire book elsewhere on this site.

You can see on the draft that the seat curve is much straighter than the one you have. You don't have to follow that particular round curve of the French curve. The curve you have is too hollow and will be tight when sewn-up. You're going to have to draft the pattern like it is on the draft you're using if this is going to work.

Have a look at some other drafts. Maybe Mansie's draft at Cutter & Tailor (is that draft her too?). Post a full picture of your entire draft so it can be seen.

Thank you so very much!

I was embarrassed about the whole draft as forgot the rear comes way out compared to the front, what I get for trying to save fabric. Now it's all sewn can't show.

So if I understand, if more fabric needed, can make the line even more shallow then the instructions?

I am enjoying learning all the line positions changing fit.  :)

Quote from: peterle on January 16, 2019, 09:59:07 PM
First of all, there will always be pulling in the back of trousers when you try to climb a chair. This is not a matter of fit, it´s just how trousers work.

For judging the fit and to give fitting advice we have to see you wearing the muslin in a natural pose, standing on both feet, arms naturally hanging at your sides, feet not too close together. Front, back and profile pics.

I think the muslin of your pics would be a good starting point.

Thank you so very much for the help!

The first pattern (for I did not draft it) felt tight and now wearing the second all evening, can say feels amazingly comfortable, no pulling in the rear (haven't put my leg on a chair though), why have worn it rather then change back.

I knew I forgot a pose, the side shot. Oh rats, now it is dark out.

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 17, 2019, 12:00:43 AM
Here is the 1959 Rundschau Trouser Draft - in English:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w3kfqih9vzos2oz/rundschau-system-for-trousers-1959-tabloid.pdf?dl=0

It is old, the legs are a bit wider etc, but it is a good method to follow.

One problem I had with Mansie's draft mentioned above, is that it removes 3 cm height at the waistband right at the start.

G

Thank you for all the help!  :)

Rundschau also is not a sloper as in the pattern I used. As I said, my favorite pants are from a late '40s suit and have about a 10 inch cuff (for a total of 20 inches). I find with my thick thighs and thin lower legs, having fullness below the knee in a more strait then skinny taper improves the atheistic and proportions. Thus why on the draft I added the extra width to try and convert to first fitting.

That was also confusing me on Rhinehart as seems a narrow waistband and wanted to have fun matching the cuff height to the waistband width, in part because I can and also find it more comfortable. To be clear, prefer not wearing belts as they also feel like I am being cut in two, so don't have to worry with how it would look, not even going to have belt loops (which I removed on one suit and vastly improved the appearance).

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 17, 2019, 12:01:51 AM
Get your camera up at the level of a table top.

I tried that and the vertical reference lines became distorted. I am using a chair and boxes to prop the cellular. Being basically broke, been trying to avoid having to purchase a point and shoot just for fittings (I do have a tripod and an Olympus 2n). Any other thought(s)?

Here is the first draft, second sloper. So excited and so comfortable forgot at first to do the side shot and seems the fabric has stretched with wearing. Also did a 3/4 shot, so five pictures total.

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50586621_2467808213233532_5333097772327370752_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=35a0da53a6c93d7893bd5f469fad31d4&oe=5CB3DE16)

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50057231_2467808166566870_547516495249276928_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=4ad8dc2198684770e7a6b7d9ab3d1f80&oe=5CCDD320)

(https://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/attachments/img_4034-jpg.27823/)

(https://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/attachments/img_4046-jpg.27824/)

(https://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/attachments/img_4052-jpg.27825/)

Thank y'all in advance for the help!  :)

The trousers are yet too tight between waist and crotch. The seat angle could also be straighter for such a wide leg.

So first you should add some width in the center back seam: add 1,5cm to the left from point M and redraft the seat seam fading the new line into the old line at point 5.

Do the same at the center front: add 1cm to the left at point 8 and redraft the center front line vertically and fade the new line into the old somewhere between point 10 and 5.

We also need profile pics to see the run of the side seam.

I hope you have enough inlays in your sloper for the alterations.

I have to say, apart from the minor seat seam tightness (and maybe a little shortness at the back crotch point) these are quite good compared to some other 'first try' trousers that have been posted over the years.

Pretty wide legs though....Oxford bags here we come!

why is the front crease line runing /\ instead of ||?
I have my tablet sitting at the window sill real plump und the camera set to 10 seconds
posaune

Quote from: peterle on January 18, 2019, 12:45:05 AM
The trousers are yet too tight between waist and crotch. The seat angle could also be straighter for such a wide leg.

So first you should add some width in the center back seam: add 1,5cm to the left from point M and redraft the seat seam fading the new line into the old line at point 5.

Do the same at the center front: add 1cm to the left at point 8 and redraft the center front line vertically and fade the new line into the old somewhere between point 10 and 5.

We also need profile pics to see the run of the side seam.

I hope you have enough inlays in your sloper for the alterations.

Thank you!

As I said, I put in a side in addition to the front and back, as requested. Are they still not showing? Not that matters since now onto the second.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 18, 2019, 04:11:10 AM
I have to say, apart from the minor seat seam tightness (and maybe a little shortness at the back crotch point) these are quite good compared to some other 'first try' trousers that have been posted over the years.

Pretty wide legs though....Oxford bags here we come!

Thank you.

Shortness? Meaning raise 23 higher?

As I said, going of a late '40s suit pants; never heard of Oxford bags. My body measurements are 36 inch hips, 23 inch thighs, 16 inches at the knee, and 10 inches at the ankle. Am I wrong?

Quote from: posaune on January 18, 2019, 04:13:52 AM
why is the front crease line runing /\ instead of ||?
I have my tablet sitting at the window sill real plump und the camera set to 10 seconds
posaune

Sprechen du Deutsch? Ich speche ein bisschen.

Not sure why the tilt, just the way it wanted to lay wren pressing.

Here is the second fitting. How is the camera height and vertical reference?
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50477940_2469200886427598_8070402136556437504_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=0f183b1db2c53db42cb27af9bbc4c279&oe=5CB3D09C)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50177552_2469200859760934_2905738473178660864_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=3e486e796e3c91f2a2f46bfdf4153e98&oe=5CCDCC59)


(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49949637_2469200873094266_3306302774064447488_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=95b283a40b1cf8be041f32256f3e9500&oe=5CB8F30E)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50026304_2469201089760911_2935169680739926016_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=7faee38da43c0d5cefc0684f94207b8a&oe=5CBE6802)

Have you a picture of your draft?

Quote from: tom bennett on January 18, 2019, 09:51:55 PM
Have you a picture of your draft?

I drafted on the muslin...

Photos now are wonderfull.
If you did the alteration to  the 1. sloper, " seems the fabric has stretched with wearing", maybe it has stretched more, because now it is too long at the back and too wide. (I think that fabric is to weak for a pants muslin). And it would stretch were the bias is -  that is mostly at the center back seam. Did you attach the waist band new?
Looking the side view I would say the front is too tight. See that from hip point up to waist band the side seam goes slightly so / . Means let out the front side seam, till it runs straight. This will effect the back (waist) naturally.
You have not done lines where your hip is (horizontal) in front and back - so I have to guess. But I think your pants is now out of balance - the back is too long. The added 2.5 cm may have been a bit too much.
The right hip is higher than the left. To prove this you have to measure from floor up to your waist.
I'll attach a link where you maybe can read some good stuff about fitting a pants (it is for woman but the fitting problems are the same)
https://closetcasepatterns.com/pants-fitting-adjustments-best-tips-for-pants-fitting/
lg
posaune

Quote from: posaune on January 19, 2019, 12:21:33 AM
Photos now are wonderfull.
If you did the alteration to  the 1. sloper, " seems the fabric has stretched with wearing", maybe it has stretched more, because now it is too long at the back and too wide. (I think that fabric is to weak for a pants muslin). And it would stretch were the bias is -  that is mostly at the center back seam. Did you attach the waist band new?
Looking the side view I would say the front is too tight. See that from hip point up to waist band the side seam goes slightly so / . Means let out the front side seam, till it runs straight. This will effect the back (waist) naturally.
You have not done lines where your hip is (horizontal) in front and back - so I have to guess. But I think your pants is now out of balance - the back is too long. The added 2.5 cm may have been a bit too much.
The right hip is higher than the left. To prove this you have to measure from floor up to your waist.
I'll attach a link where you maybe can read some good stuff about fitting a pants (it is for woman but the fitting problems are the same)
https://closetcasepatterns.com/pants-fitting-adjustments-best-tips-for-pants-fitting/
lg
posaune

Okay, glad one thing out of the way.

Sorry, they are light blue, guess too light. Next time use my green marker (my black dried out).

The only time it stretched was when damp from ironing and that felt like only the knees.

No, I left the waistband in, came about an inch from it.

The front is really giving me problems, think in part because the drafts don't include the fly. So how does one allow for this?

Honestly, after last night considering drafting another pattern because not enough fabric for the adjustment despite the additional seam allowances, this time with a wider front and address what Henry said. Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

Knew forgot something... posaune, you are correct, the right hip is higher than the left by about 3/8 inches, good eye.

you just cut a facing on. Means 4 cm width and length as then zipper should be. Iron Interface to the facing - on left and right side of the trousers . Mark with a seam (dark color)  the Center front (left and right). Iron the left side into the inner side . The right side stay as is. Now you can pin the trouser close when fitting the sloper. Need no Zipp.
Little shortness at back crotch point: the back crotch curve is not long enough - you altered that already. But I think too much. And it may be because of your thigh circ that they pull the fabric in. So it may be you can alter the form of the inseam a bit.
lg
posaune
ah and front crotch: I think the form is of the curve is not okay.

Quote from: posaune on January 19, 2019, 04:57:29 AM
you just cut a facing on. Means 4 cm width and length as then zipper should be. Iron Interface to the facing - on left and right side of the trousers . Mark with a seam (dark color)  the Center front (left and right). Iron the left side into the inner side . The right side stay as is. Now you can pin the trouser close when fitting the sloper. Need no Zipp.
Little shortness at back crotch point: the back crotch curve is not long enough - you altered that already. But I think too much. And it may be because of your thigh circ that they pull the fabric in. So it may be you can alter the form of the inseam a bit.
lg
posaune
ah and front crotch: I think the form is of the curve is not okay.

Now I am even more confused...

Though now I understand for the sloper need to ignore the fly until the final, so how is a fly added to the final then?

I didn't notice the reply until getting on to draft a new post on Rundschu Cutting System.

Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

I saw that you have a second thread and here is what you was refering too. The translation of Kellner(?)  I have not read it through all those stuff!!!. But I'm sure he means that when you circle the outseam length to the back center you should do 1 cm less. This will bring the back pants up for a straighter fall. Yours are falling down in back - too much length at the center back crotch. But too much for doing this. (I thought it meant the inseam crotch point and the fit there - as was discussed earlier)
Your difference between out and inseam is 34 cm that is very much. So your dart lengths must maybe larger
For sewing a men's fly look in the net - there is much around.
lg
posaune

Quote from: posaune on January 19, 2019, 09:45:19 PM

Do you know that this means "a little shortness at the back crotch point"?

I saw that you have a second thread and here is what you was refering too. The translation of Kellner(?)  I have not read it through all those stuff!!!. But I'm sure he means that when you circle the outseam length to the back center you should do 1 cm less. This will bring the back pants up for a straighter fall. Yours are falling down in back - too much length at the center back crotch. But too much for doing this. (I thought it meant the inseam crotch point and the fit there - as was discussed earlier)
Your difference between out and inseam is 34 cm that is very much. So your dart lengths must maybe larger
For sewing a men's fly look in the net - there is much around.
lg
posaune

No second thread, a new thread for a new draft. Figured needed to step back further, meaning instead of working on a trial trouser, to first resolve the pattern, then once the pattern is ready, then have the sloper reviewed once done.

Who is Kellner?

Circle the outseam?

These are high rise trousers. The inspiration has the dart through the pockets, though mine will not have any pockets (don't use them so why have them and one pair of OTR doesn't). How does one then know where to end the dart?

Kelner - This is the guy who translated the stuff, he was at T and C. He was enfant terrible there :-
). You take your measure band to center back Knee point and you held it down with your finger or an awl - go up to the outseam waist point - still helding it down. You read the measurement and now you rotate the measure band up the Back crotch line. (So you use the band as a divider. You can use that little hole as anchor. This is how my teacher uses it on the cloth.) Where the measure( - 1 cm )meets the back crotch there will be the back crotch waist point.
As you do the trouser up so high your dart will have another length and form as in a standard draft which ends 1 finger over the hip bones.
Your rise (word??) is 34 cm and the standard ist about 24 cm .
lg
posaune

Quote from: posaune on January 21, 2019, 02:56:54 AM
Kelner - This is the guy who translated the stuff, he was at T and C. He was enfant terrible there :-
). You take your measure band to center back Knee point and you held it down with your finger or an awl - go up to the outseam waist point - still helding it down. You read the measurement and now you rotate the measure band up the Back crotch line. (So you use the band as a divider. You can use that little hole as anchor. This is how my teacher uses it on the cloth.) Where the measure( - 1 cm )meets the back crotch there will be the back crotch waist point.
As you do the trouser up so high your dart will have another length and form as in a standard draft which ends 1 finger over the hip bones.
Your rise (word??) is 34 cm and the standard ist about 24 cm .
lg
posaune

Thank you for the help! :happy:

Took me a while, probably long gone. Wanted to be sure to run through as I am a tactile then visual learner, no auditory learning available.

Not sure what "enfant terrible" means in this context...

Anyway, I am new to all these terms so really would appreciate points so I can adapt, sorry. You mean K1 to M1? That is 62.5cm, the same measurement I was using for K3 to B4.

So then S4 to B5 following the curve?

That raises B5 significantly higher then B4: 16cm (62,5cm - 46,5cm). Why do this?

When sitting on a hard surface, Gesäß to natural waist is 32cm on the left. Am I long waisted? Miene Oma war. Couldn't wear suppressed dresses as the suppression was not right.

Where is the original of this system?

No, please reread the patterns text.

To determin the back waistline you take the measure K1-b1.

Then place your measuring tape at K3 and transfer the taken measure to mark B4.

Now measure M3 to B4, pin or hold the tape at M3 and transfer the measurement to determin B5. It´s like a giant divider. look in dia.534 "Kreisbogen".


The original is from the book "DerZuschnitt in der Herrenschneiderei" Edition XVI by Verlag M. Müller, München.

This is why, by-and-large, I don't use German drafting systems all that much. I like to get things done a little more quickly and economically (perhaps intuitively) and the English systems are more straightforward.

Mueller-type drafts can be over-complicated. The first time I encountered them I wondered why it took ten steps to achieve what English drafts do in one or two steps. Granted they are accurate and often produce great results; maybe even requiring less fitting, but the draft I most use for trousers is an adaptation of one from the CPG based upon simple measurement divisions and drafting the seat and back is so much simpler. It's also very flexible to fitting changes.

Quote from: peterle on January 21, 2019, 11:12:06 PM
No, please reread the patterns text.

To determin the back waistline you take the measure K1-b1.

Then place your measuring tape at K3 and transfer the taken measure to mark B4.

Now measure M3 to B4, pin or hold the tape at M3 and transfer the measurement to determin B5. It´s like a giant divider. look in dia.534 "Kreisbogen".


The original is from the book "DerZuschnitt in der Herrenschneiderei" Edition XVI by Verlag M. Müller, München.

Why keep questioning my ability to follow directions? Is it because the draft is severely off?

Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts. Guess time for a new thread?

Thank you for answering where the system came from, appreciated.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 22, 2019, 01:20:53 AM
This is why, by-and-large, I don't use German drafting systems all that much. I like to get things done a little more quickly and economically (perhaps intuitively) and the English systems are more straightforward.

Mueller-type drafts can be over-complicated. The first time I encountered them I wondered why it took ten steps to achieve what English drafts do in one or two steps. Granted they are accurate and often produce great results; maybe even requiring less fitting, but the draft I most use for trousers is an adaptation of one from the CPG based upon simple measurement divisions and drafting the seat and back is so much simpler. It's also very flexible to fitting changes.

Henry, thank you so very much.  :)

CPG?

Never mind, realized after tending the flowers do a search and in two seconds had my answer. Sorry...

The Cutter's Practical Guide by F.R. Morris

Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts.
Peterle and I took the time to describe how to set the darts.  Darts are a very personell thing  they depends on the figure.
lg
posaune

Don't take it as a replacement recommendation! Older drafts also have their own issues. I just prefer the systems. Mueller & Sohn produces an excellent pair of trousers.

Listen to Peterle though; he knows what he's doing. It's not specifically to annoy you.

Quote from: posaune on January 22, 2019, 04:51:36 AM
Two days  fiddling with B5 and no answer on darts.
Peterle and I took the time to describe how to set the darts.  Darts are a very personell thing  they depends on the figure.
lg
posaune

Thank you!  :)

Okay, so how then do I need to ask the question so it is clear? I don't feel good enough at German to converse, it's the changes in endings of words I get confused with (basically self taught). Trim the question down and then get asked clarification if needed?

I have had two concussions and after the second, most people don't understand me to where feels like speaking a foreign language, gets frustrating and tiring. Being Autistic doesn't make it any easier as at times forget modulation.

I am not seeing how the 4cm stated works with the 3cm the draft provides. My question was whether to use the 3cm or to add to the draft the additional 1cm.

If I add the one 1cm them the concern is where.

I am taking Henry's advice to use the CPG and Terry plus Henry to draft at 1/4 scale, though stopping to lunch.

If the darts are personal, then where do I find the information on how to determine and place? I have a stack of "assigned" reading and has me overwhelmed, want to get close for now as read through.

If you add more to the draft you'd have to take more out with the darts!

The placement of the darts is shown. The longest one is placed halfway between B5 - B4 and the shorter one between that dart and B4.

I recall now that the translation of Ausfall as 'shortfall' was what baffled me. It is the bit left over at the top once the 1/4 waist has been accounted for and ends up being taken up by the darts.

I know M&S has many fans, but there are really simpler drafts that produce equally good trousers. like e.g. the Chaudhry ones from 1970 in this thread (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1118&hl=%2Bthe+%2Btailor+%2B%26amp%3B+%2Bcutter+%2Btrouser+%2Bcutting+%2Bsystem) at Cutter & Tailor.
You can see in the comment under the draft that Zuschneider remarks that they have a lot in common with Rundschau, but the Chaudhry draft tells you exactly where to put the darts.

Thank you so very much for answering not just the question, though also giving more drafts to practice.  :P Much appreciated!  :)

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 22, 2019, 07:47:47 AM
If you add more to the draft you'd have to take more out with the darts!

With Autism, take things literal. So when told the darts equalled 4cm, thought must equal 4cm on every draft.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 22, 2019, 07:47:47 AMThe placement of the darts is shown. The longest one is placed halfway between B5 - B4 and the shorter one between that dart and B4.

Yes, I understood that, I just forget which of the kind folks that told me.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 22, 2019, 07:47:47 AMI recall now that the translation of Ausfall as 'shortfall' was what baffled me. It is the bit left over at the top once the 1/4 waist has been accounted for and ends up being taken up by the darts.

Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 22, 2019, 07:47:47 AMI know M&S has many fans, but there are really simpler drafts that produce equally good trousers. like e.g. the Chaudhry ones from 1970 in this thread (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1118&hl=%2Bthe+%2Btailor+%2B%26amp%3B+%2Bcutter+%2Btrouser+%2Bcutting+%2Bsystem) at Cutter & Tailor.
You can see in the comment under the draft that Zuschneider remarks that they have a lot in common with Rundschau, but the Chaudhry draft tells you exactly where to put the darts.

Great! I will put it on the list, this afternoon leaving to go pick up three trash bags full of wool fabric. Cost? Free!

Already running late, though thought be good to reply now then delay progress until tomorrow.

I like the rundschau trouser draft, because it´s very versatile. It will always produce a good pattern no matter if you have wider legs or tighter ones, because the underside crotch tip is related to the knee width. It also enables you to influence the seat angle and gives an idea where to influence the through measure (crotch diameter). It also has a hip line, so you know where to measure the final hip width. So of course it is more complicated, but it also offers more features than a lot of other systems.

To Adriel:  The eccess B7- B4  in your personal pattern will be most likely different to the one in the model draft, because it depends on a very lot of things. B7- B4 only shows you how much you have to take out with the darts. When the excess isn´t more than 2,5cm, you only need one dart. When it´s 3cm I would do a 2cm larger dart and a 1cm dart.

Quote from: Adriel on January 22, 2019, 08:03:56 AM
Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

That's no problem. It just means you only need one dart.

Quote from: peterle on January 23, 2019, 01:29:10 AM
I like the rundschau trouser draft, because it´s very versatile. It will always produce a good pattern no matter if you have wider legs or tighter ones, because the underside crotch tip is related to the knee width. It also enables you to influence the seat angle and gives an idea where to influence the through measure (crotch diameter). It also has a hip line, so you know where to measure the final hip width. So of course it is more complicated, but it also offers more features than a lot of other systems.

[Moved below.]

Peter, thank you for the information on the differences. Myself having more trouble with the F.R. Morris draft, specifically determining points 23 and 24.

Do like the nip in the front for less break and more shoe coverage (10 to Ax). Thinking for those without turn-ups to copy and transfer.

Quote from: peterle on January 23, 2019, 01:29:10 AMTo Adriel:  The eccess B7- B4  in your personal pattern will be most likely different to the one in the model draft, because it depends on a very lot of things. B7- B4 only shows you how much you have to take out with the darts. When the excess isn´t more than 2,5cm, you only need one dart. When it´s 3cm I would do a 2cm larger dart and a 1cm dart.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 23, 2019, 04:20:23 AM

Quote from: Adriel on January 22, 2019, 08:03:56 AM
Yes, that was my question too! As I said, was concerned the shortfall on the first draft was just over 1cm.

That's no problem. It just means you only need one dart.

Fantastisch!  ;D Much appreciated, now ready for any seat angle.  :)

Question on the F.R. Morris draft:
How is point 23 determined?

Other then that, fairly strait forward. Point 16 was coming out too low below crotch point (3/4"), so transferred 1/2 distance O to 9 on the same line out to create point 16. Though I am open to correction.

Thank you all in advance!  :)

I'm going to warn you. I'm not sure which draft you are using from that Morris book, but you may well not get the results you expect. It's not easy fitting the older drafts.

I'm not entirely sure what silhouette you are after (from the initial thread I imagine 40s/50s) but basically, to make it easier you want something which doesn't have a ridiculously over-rounded hip curve on the topsides, none of the bizarre shapes around the bottoms and has a lot of the accuracy already built into the draft. Many older drafts require a lot of skill in making up, in ironwork and manipulation and so forth. They reflect the methods and the types of cloth from the period.

I can therefore see why the M&S drafts are recommended. They are modern and have removed a lot of errors. There are some older drafts that (through chance or design) happen to be very usable, but they are fewer rather than more.

I'm just pointing this out.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 24, 2019, 11:38:13 AM
I'm going to warn you. I'm not sure which draft you are using from that Morris book, but you may well not get the results you expect. It's not easy fitting the older drafts.

I'm not entirely sure what silhouette you are after (from the initial thread I imagine 40s/50s) but basically, to make it easier you want something which doesn't have a ridiculously over-rounded hip curve on the topsides, none of the bizarre shapes around the bottoms and has a lot of the accuracy already built into the draft. Many older drafts require a lot of skill in making up, in ironwork and manipulation and so forth. They reflect the methods and the types of cloth from the period.

I can therefore see why the M&S drafts are recommended. They are modern and have removed a lot of errors. There are some older drafts that (through chance or design) happen to be very usable, but they are fewer rather than more.

I'm just pointing this out.

I am using the one you posted the link to: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=83.msg316#msg316.

Was only drafting 1/4 of the given measurements to see how I liked and get more practice. I still want to know about point 23 so can finish.

Much appreciated knowing the older patterns require about over 12 ounce and heavier due to iron work. Seems with the ironwork, not conducive to pattern, especially stronger checks as get out of shape?

What I mean by classic is a fuller fit (not this current skin tight and extreme taper), higher rise, no pleats, and PTUs. If this is '40s/'50s cut, so be it. I don't give a flip about what is or is not in fashion, just what is comfortable and I enjoy. My style has been called Trad eccentric by the AAAC forum. Happen to be wearing today strait legged vintage slacks, button down cotton yarn dyed flannel shirt, vintage wool knit pullover with shawl collar flipped over the vintage Scottish herringbone tweed sport coat.

And I am thankful you are pointing it out as then will finish the current just so done.

the point 23 is derrived from point 22.
lg
posaune
(And it has a cut on waistband. Worn with braces (If I remember it right, worn even before my times))

This is a completely different kind of trousers. It will have no waistband and is to be worn with braces. It will reach 5cm above your bodies waist.

There is obviousely a bug in Diagram 1: Point 22 is on the same line as 19-20, 2,5 inches above the line 1-8. Point 23 is 3/8in inwards and 2in. lower from point 22. The 2 in. are the same amount as 1-2 (wich is the the amount of rise above the waistline). (You can see this in diagram 2 and it´s text).

I think it´s not possible that point 16 is so much too low, so redo it: draw a part of an 2 1/2 in circle with point 9 as centerpoint. pin your tape measure to point 14, take the radius to point 9 and circle it to the left till the small circle line and the large circle line cross. That´s point 16.

Quote from: posaune on January 24, 2019, 10:03:07 PM
the point 23 is derrived from point 22.
lg
posaune
(And it has a cut on waistband. Worn with braces (If I remember it right, worn even before my times))

Interesting, of course now point out, see if you didn't the back button fabric be loose. The late '40s suit trousers have both belt loops and did have suspender buttons until the "tailor" kept them (really upsetting as irreplaceable).

Quote from: peterle on January 24, 2019, 10:07:20 PM
This is a completely different kind of trousers. It will have no waistband and is to be worn with braces. It will reach 5cm above your bodies waist.

There is obviousely a bug in Diagram 1: Point 22 is on the same line as 19-20, 2,5 inches above the line 1-8. Point 23 is 3/8in inwards and 2in. lower from point 22. The 2 in. are the same amount as 1-2 (wich is the the amount of rise above the waistline). (You can see this in diagram 2 and it´s text).

I think it´s not possible that point 16 is so much too low, so redo it: draw a part of an 2 1/2 in circle with point 9 as centerpoint. pin your tape measure to point 14, take the radius to point 9 and circle it to the left till the small circle line and the large circle line cross. That´s point 16.

The systems I have used always placed the crotch point on the same line. However, the A.G. Chaudhry trousers have the rear crotch point also dropped, plus the fly line and the seat seam are same and continuous, as seen here:

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50666109_2479722678708752_1926281502132273152_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=74027eef94414d39a210df0c087a13c6&oe=5CC48E5A)

Back to F.R. Morris pattern, there is also seems the assumption to square at 22. Further, 24 and 25 do not land the same points as on the diagram despite following instructions and using the given measurements. Henry suggested it for the full cut and ease of drafting, to which appreciate, however, not yet convinced produce satisfactory results with my beginner's drafting ability.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50554478_2479718658709154_2480158045083009024_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=d63743e46361edc9a8ab8623bb6bd7fc&oe=5CB56624)

To me, A.G. Chaudhry feels a happy middle between the fine points of Rundschau and the seeming vagueness of F.R. Morris, no offense meant. If someone new to drafting asked for a pattern system, would hand them one by  A.G. Chaudhry and once comfortable with drafting (including those darts, bane of my existence   :P), then hand them Rundschau. Further, if I was in the business and could see what back angle needed, then Rundschau be the pattern.

Again thanks and appreciation for being amazing tour guides on this fun journey.  :D

The bottom draft looks like Jodhpurs! The knee is way out of kilter with the widths above it. The undersides can't possibly be the same size. That is not going to work. Imagine the huge gap that will be there when you come to join the seams.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 25, 2019, 03:59:20 AM
The bottom draft looks like Jodhpurs! The knee is way out of kilter with the widths above it. The undersides can't possibly be the same size. That is not going to work. Imagine the huge gap that will be there when you come to join the seams.

After the second concussion, will have blank outs. Here is an example, missed 17 and 18, though really doesn't matter as not going to move to self measurements. at least though everything else passes inspection.

as you are so excited about draft, I remembered a "research" I did once. But I gave up - the possibilities where too much.
I attach a pic. Here you see several Rundschau drafts one over the others - so as you would sew them. All have the same measurements - only the triggers have other values.
the green one is a jeans. This is why I like Rundschau.
lg
posaune

(https://i.postimg.cc/CZs5kY2z/rundschauhosen.png) (https://postimg.cc/CZs5kY2z)

Quote from: posaune on January 25, 2019, 04:26:48 AM
as you are so excited about draft, I remembered a "research" I did once. But I gave up - the possibilities where too much.

I am sorry, I am not understanding what you are saying. Are you referring to this attached draft?

Quote from: posaune on January 25, 2019, 04:26:48 AMI attach a pic. Here you see several Rundschau drafts one over the others - so as you would sew them. All have the same measurements - only the triggers have other values.
the green one is a jeans. This is why I like Rundschau.
lg
posaune

(https://i.postimg.cc/CZs5kY2z/rundschauhosen.png) (https://postimg.cc/CZs5kY2z)

This is what I did also, as you may recall. Thank you for sharing, interesting we had the same thought. What are the other coloured lines for?

Speaking of jeans, figured could use more practice so was starting in on this: http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2196. Practice is the only way to get better.  :P

I don't see what it proves.

I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

Quote from: Hendrick on January 25, 2019, 06:16:30 AM
I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

Interesting, thank you!  :)

By the way, both my Opa and I could never get dress to fit in Levis for some reason, so never have worn them. Instead, family went with Lee. Sadly, don't wear like they used to and missed out on getting Cone denim.

Good to know best to get the fit right and flat, then over time some ease will happen. Does this also happen with other cotton and wool wovens?

Quote from: Hendrick on January 25, 2019, 06:16:30 AM
I think it proves that width or volume cannot change without tilting a the top segment of the pant,especially for more casual trousers. I worked a while (a good part of the 80s for 2 of the big jeans brands). Note that in a 501 levis, the side seam is perfectly straight (i.e. is formed by the selvedge of the denim), save the top 4 inches... Hence, the center leg line totally neglects the crotch diameter. The seat seam is therefor a near straight line, but is dramatically tilted. Because the seat is nearly bias cloth, the jean will shape after wear. This is the famous "anti fit" affect...

Regards, Hendrick

The seat seam is on the other side, not the side seam side, so I don't see the relevance. The thing with jeans is they clearly extend the crotch points and draft a fairly straight seat seam. All seat seams are on the bias. On the jeans the leg shape is made by having a huge curve from the crotch into the knee.

The issue I was addressing was how and why the comparison diagram somehow showed Rundschau/M&S to be especially marvellous?

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 25, 2019, 07:24:43 AM[...]

The issue I was addressing was how and why the comparison diagram somehow showed Rundschau/M&S to be especially marvellous?

As I understand, the seat angle can be easily changed by increasing the distance between S and S1 without affecting any other measurements.

Yes, I know the advantages of that system, but the fact English tailoring does and always has produced excellent trousers without it tells another story I think.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 25, 2019, 07:45:06 AM
Yes, I know the advantages of that system, but the fact English tailoring does and always has produced excellent trousers without it tells another story I think.

I feel the same, just that as I understand, the English tailoring might need more fitting where the German may not. We shall see, first up is the German. Ironed the muslin while fixing lunch, then off to an appointment, hopefully after can calk out at least one Rundschau.

The advantage of the English is does give drafts for corpulent figures which have yet to find for the German (eventually desire to tailor a trouser for my 355 pound Brother, mostly just bigger fellow).

I think the German drafts get closer. That's the main difference as I see it. There is less time at the muslin, so to speak.  The fashion points are all variable.

Hi Henry,
The relevance is that when the sideseam is the selvedge, already the center leg of the pant is not straight to the grain of the fabric. Inherently, with the sides being straight, the centerback wiil be more bias than in mormal trousers...

Regards, Hendrick

Your Morris pattern will not work at all. There are a lot of mistakes in your draft.

Point 24 has to lie on the horizontal line 2-7 in any case: A precise text to achieve this point would be: Elongate the line 2-7 to the right. Measure distance 2-7. Subtract this amount from  half waist measure plus 2in. Now measure the remaining amount from point 23 onto the elongated line to find point 24.

There is also something wrong with your length measures. The part above the crotchline is a lot too long compared to the rest of the legs in my eyes, even for high waisted trousers. Please recheck.


@ Posaune: I´m always interested in your overlay draftings. Do you remember wich triggers you altered in this case? The seat angles seem  all the same. Did you just alter the knee width? and did you overlay them by matching the crotch points and the inseam knee points?

Peterle,  as far as I remember I played with different crotch diameters back and front and place of the back center- so only the jeans had another seat angle becaue of style. yes overlayed at crotch point and front inseam.
lg
posaune

Thanks Posaune. Now I have to think about, what I can learn from the overlay draft.

Once again not getting notifications... wondered why quiet, been getting after the Rundschau now that had a busy week, too busy. Slight delay as had a hand twitch dropping the chalk, white glue to the rescue, should be dry soon.

Quote from: peterle on January 25, 2019, 10:13:23 PM
Your Morris pattern will not work at all. There are a lot of mistakes in your draft.

Figured.

Quote from: peterle on January 25, 2019, 10:13:23 PMPoint 24 has to lie on the horizontal line 2-7 in any case: A precise text to achieve this point would be: Elongate the line 2-7 to the right. Measure distance 2-7. Subtract this amount from  half waist measure plus 2in. Now measure the remaining amount from point 23 onto the elongated line to find point 24.

Much appreciated!

Quote from: peterle on January 25, 2019, 10:13:23 PMThere is also something wrong with your length measures. The part above the crotchline is a lot too long compared to the rest of the legs in my eyes, even for high waisted trousers. Please recheck.

I know, didn't look right to me either though all the measurements checked out, why I was not planning to use for self. Might work for some, just not me.

At least achieved the objective of trying an English pattern and learned a lot thanks to y'all.  :)

Got the 3cm and 6cm S-S5 sewn up, however, trying on the former, way too large, so now curious how this works please?

Once understand, then will move to the 6cm applying the information.

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50789982_2485168198164200_8709724932147249152_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=4d21df3c8933d5522b2437d38d69a3f4&oe=5CC3BA9A)

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51003332_2485168914830795_507277517883703296_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=946f12bdcab91d0a2e3dca0ed604d491&oe=5CFEFD83)

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50679442_2485169231497430_7598373028723949568_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=f1866eb70373a057d430a1b510721d04&oe=5CBA4C7C)

Thanks and appreciation.  :)

Is this the rundschau pattern?

What do you mean with "got the 3cm and 6cm S-S1 sewn up"? There is no 3 cm or 6cm from S-S1 in the draft.

Quote from: peterle on January 28, 2019, 08:22:07 PM
Is this the rundschau pattern?

What do you mean with "got the 3cm and 6cm S-S1 sewn up"? There is no 3 cm or 6cm from S-S1 in the draft.

Oh heck, now another day delay over a niggly mistake made because relying on tired memory.  :( Would have thought discussed this darn seat angle enough that be obvious what I was talking about. Time to make a best guess again and break the rule of having a fitting outside the inlay, only stay up by friction.

And yes this is the Rundschau System.

The seat angel is S-S5 not S-S1 as you wrote before. Please be precise so we can avoid delays easier.

You should keep the seat angle as in the pattern for your fitting, wich is 1,5cm rise at S. This is an average angle suitable for this pattern and knee width. We will see wether it also fits your body.

Please also sew the seat seam at the pattern line. The inlays are just additional fabric for the case it´s needed. When not needed, they hang inside the trousers.

Quote from: peterle on January 28, 2019, 11:45:12 PM
The seat angel is S-S5 not S-S1 as you wrote before. Please be precise so we can avoid delays easier.

You should keep the seat angle as in the pattern for your fitting, wich is 1,5cm rise at S. This is an average angle suitable for this pattern and knee width. We will see wether it also fits your body.

Please also sew the seat seam at the pattern line. The inlays are just additional fabric for the case it´s needed. When not needed, they hang inside the trousers.

Thank you for the help, much appreciated!  :)

I am sorry, I am having a really hard time keeping track of who said what...and seems mutual. Someone said a more vertical seat angle be better for wider trousers and my flat bum. Because of the flat bum, wanted to see how 3 and 6cm look, if neither have the right angle, then can be discussed for a broadening of fitting knowledge; don't just want a pattern just for me as loving this puzzle (and had a wonderful discussion about his trouser preferences with a friend yesterday).

Or you want another made up with 1,5cm? Should be less busy this week, though this morning need to make some telephone calls. Looks like might run out of muslin too.

Where else would they hang? :P

To what does the 6, 3 and 1.5cm refer?

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 29, 2019, 04:10:41 AM
To what does the 6, 3 and 1.5cm refer?

(https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50722871_2486094674738219_6237688884969340928_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-1.xx&oh=8240f0930010edd2527ec4a2720e58b3&oe=5CF8ECB9)

Adriel, in a trouser pattern you must be careful about altering the crotch geometry. Not X cm - it is a 0.5  cm step which is changed. And please do not expect that all know what S5 represent in a draft. (And 6 cm from S to S5 is way too much)
I do not think that you have a flat bum. In the pics above you showed  that you are pressing your belly into front and the peak of your  bum is before your shoulder blades - but pics are only one moment caught. Nice dog! Your hip circ is average (comparing waist to hip) but what counts for drafting a trouser is your posture. Another trigger for the seat angle is the centering of the back leg. In the draft  it is 1 cm from M to the right. Try it out they work together. And if you draw on your muslin the line which goes from S5 to the back crotch seam, you can easily see if your angle is alright. It runs then straight across.
lg
posaune

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMAdriel, in a trouser pattern you must be careful about altering the crotch geometry. Not X cm - it is a 0.5  cm step which is changed.

Oh my, wonder why when I was asked long while back was not explained? At least you caught it, very appreciated!  :)

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMAnd please do not expect that all know what S5 represent in a draft.

Okay, I will try and remember to state in every reply, appreciate you informing so can have understanding, know I must be a frustrating personality.

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AM(And 6 cm from S to S5 is way too much)

Now feel have to finish 6cm Rundschau to feel what you mean. What is the maximum please?

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMI do not think that you have a flat bum.

One of the drafts I did, the model had a 32 inch waist and a 40 inch seat, in other words, 8 inch drop compared to my 4 inch drop.

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMIn the pics above you showed  that you are pressing your belly into front...

What you mean by this? I don't think I was sucking it in.

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AM... and the peak of your  bum is before your shoulder blades...

Even more confused by this, can you please explain or rephrase?

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AM... - but pics are only one moment caught.

In this case, the tight muscles along the right scapula pulling my shoulder down, somehow pulled it a few days ago. Do wonder if the right side back tension also pulls the hip up, going in Wednesday for something else and will ask.

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMNice dog!

Danke! The cream and silver the majority of of the time by my side, especially when chalking, pressing, and sewing, most likely because toughest. In addition, had the thought if he finds the clicking of the vintage 328K soothing (all metal gears versus the light ticking of modern plastic geared machines).

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMYour hip circ is average (comparing waist to hip)

Okay, appreciate the information.

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMbut what counts for drafting a trouser is your posture.

Which changes depending on how my back is doing and my energy level. I am trying to keep better posture though had 31 years, since birth until last year, of 15 degree spine tilt to the right (saying this as affects fit and hoping the aforementioned can explain musculoskeletally so can adjust patterns if needed).

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMAnother trigger for the seat angle is the centering of the back leg. In the draft  it is 1 cm from M to the right. Try it out they work together.

M to m on the Rundschau, correct?

Quote from: posaune on January 29, 2019, 08:15:59 AMAnd if you draw on your muslin the line which goes from S5 to the back crotch seam, you can easily see if your angle is alright. It runs then straight across.

S5 to S6 on Rundschau?

Thanks to y'all putting up with me, now have a muslin, from the Rundschau System, which think worth discussing fit, very much appreciated!  :D Will say feels so much better than anything before, especially the extra gut.

First, no pulling in the front which think was helped by adding the 1,5cm to the side seams at the seat height based off previous critique, versus the straiter seams. Just pin shut with ease rather then struggling.

Second, to my untrained eye, looks like a lot less floppy fabric at the rear seat. Feels tighter across the back and looser where the four seams are, not like going to pop a stitch or few. What thinks y'all?

Third, no gap between the waistband and the back, unlike most of my pants.

Posaune wants to say, that your  entier pelvis is tilted, compared to an average posture. So your belly protrudes your chest and your bum protrudes the shoulderblades when looked at in profile. That´s your posture to wich the pattern is to be adapted.


Did you post pics of the new muslin? My screen doesn´t show any.

Quote from: peterle on January 29, 2019, 09:40:03 PM
Posaune wants to say, that your  entier pelvis is tilted, compared to an average posture. So your belly protrudes your chest and your bum protrudes the shoulderblades when looked at in profile. That´s your posture to wich the pattern is to be adapted.

Appreciate the clarification.

Quote from: peterle on January 29, 2019, 09:40:03 PMDid you post pics of the new muslin? My screen doesn´t show any.

Let's try that again.
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51321679_2486497448031275_6153962285694976000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=55c930836af818a7be7b3eba689cf674&oe=5CB92E3C)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50763263_2486498194697867_4701666953373155328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=4301c7255e64205cc9cfc22cf7b8da27&oe=5CB43F75)
(https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51449293_2486498568031163_1147962878964269056_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&oh=0d5b8ad3bc42510f8a4416204055e39a&oe=5CB79CEC)

The dogs are so shocked at the improvement they forgot to photo-bomb you!

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 30, 2019, 09:53:51 AM
The dogs are so shocked at the improvement they forgot to photo-bomb you!

Laugh my arse off! (The polite version of LMAO  :P) I needed the laugh after this day, appreciated.

I take it then nothing major?

Maybe some small issue at the back fork and what you can see under the seat-line in the side-on photo. Peterle and Posaune will advise. They know this draft very well.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 30, 2019, 10:05:46 AM
Maybe some small issue at the back fork and what you can see under the seat-line in the side-on photo. Peterle and Posaune will advise. They know this draft very well.

Appreciate the reply, as what I concerned about also. I felt when pinched out a few places uncomfortable sitting, though no expert how proper trousers should feel.

Since seemed moving forward, tried the 6mm S to S5 and y'all are right, could barely get them on. LOL Kind of feels like a waste, though did get technique practice and know probably about 4cm is the maximum, though wouldn't since 3cm fits so well. Once the fit is nailed, had the idea to slice the back to create a yoke and see if can adapt the pattern to jeans without using the Cutter draft, just for grins.

Speaking of which, already did the model's draft and working on my measurements now. Practice makes close to perfect.  :P

here a pic which shows how S5  (seat angle) and m (the back trouser center) work together
(https://i.postimg.cc/jDmSz6c8/backpants-m-S5.png) (https://postimg.cc/jDmSz6c8)
you see the back pants will be shorter the legs are more pushed out .
(For ladies the average would be 4 cm for seat angle and for m = 2 cm
Children - who move a lot - will have 1.5 and 1 cm for m)
Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.
And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. before you sew the new one together do it! You have done excellent
lg
posaune

Doesn´t look bad I think.
For me there are two things:
First the waistseamline is very slanted, it drops a lot towards the front in the profile. I´m not sure it will stay up when being worn. Please post a profile pic like the one you did but this time bend the elbow  (underarm forward) so we can see the side seam run. Then we can think about how to alter.

Second are the creases under the butt.
I would pin a fishform dart across the butt: with the drawn horizontal line as center line pin a dart across the butt that takes out 1,5cm at the seat seam and gradually fades to 0cm at the side seams. When it works, we can incorporate it to the paper pattern.

Quote from: posaune on January 30, 2019, 09:57:27 PM
here a pic which shows how S5  (seat angle) and m (the back trouser center) work together
(https://i.postimg.cc/jDmSz6c8/backpants-m-S5.png) (https://postimg.cc/jDmSz6c8)
you see the back pants will be shorter the legs are more pushed out .

Fantastisch und wunderbar! Now I see how because I did not adjust m, affected how the side seam places. Is this causing the wrinkles?

Quote from: posaune on January 30, 2019, 09:57:27 PM(For ladies the average would be 4 cm for seat angle and for m = 2 cm
Children - who move a lot - will have 1.5 and 1 cm for m)

Oddly, just the other day was thinking when my nephews get bigger could make them tailored trousers and less than 12 hours here is the instructions.  :o  Appreciated all of it, never know who can pass it to! :)  ;)

Quote from: posaune on January 30, 2019, 09:57:27 PMYes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.

I looked up "spalt" though don't find a definition which seems to work, can you help please?

Could I add 1cm to the back panels at the side seam? Or will that make the fit worse?

Quote from: posaune on January 30, 2019, 09:57:27 PMAnd if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. before you sew the new one together do it! You have done excellent
lg
posaune

What means you by "dress the trouser"?

What new one?

I am stunned the second draft comes out so well and slightly surprised Rundschau requires no major adjustments.

Quote from: peterle on January 30, 2019, 11:46:45 PM
Doesn´t look bad I think.
For me there are two things:
First the waistseamline is very slanted, it drops a lot towards the front in the profile. I´m not sure it will stay up when being worn. Please post a profile pic like the one you did but this time bend the elbow  (underarm forward) so we can see the side seam run. Then we can think about how to alter.

As I thought said, remarked how well these trousers stay up without a belt. I wore them about four hours until retiring for the night as so comfortable didn't want to switch.  :P  ;)

Okay, here: (//)

Quote from: peterle on January 30, 2019, 11:46:45 PMSecond are the creases under the butt.
I would pin a fishform dart across the butt: with the drawn horizontal line as center line pin a dart across the butt that takes out 1,5cm at the seat seam and gradually fades to 0cm at the side seams. When it works, we can incorporate it to the paper pattern.

What is a fishform dart? Google produces no answer.

Quote from: AdrielWhat means you by "dress the trouser"?

The ironwork you will do on the actual trousers.

Did You post a profile pic? Can´t see one.

fishform: that´s how you call a dart with two tips and wider in the middle.

Quote from: peterle on January 31, 2019, 10:03:56 AM
Did You post a profile pic? Can´t see one.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51484162_2489580271056326_883482666937090048_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=492e73014882335d06da9a5295a3c0e3&oe=5CEB6917)

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50910850_2489580161056337_8120367651479355392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=4f98984617f94674c2033e8b4e222304&oe=5CB5C799)

Quote from: peterle on January 31, 2019, 10:03:56 AMfishform: that´s how you call a dart with two tips and wider in the middle.

Okay.

Quote from: Henry Hall on January 31, 2019, 09:06:26 AM

Quote from: AdrielWhat means you by "dress the trouser"?

The ironwork you will do on the actual trousers.

Thank you for clarifying.  :)

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51026344_2489647011049652_580571620121247744_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=7526b60f6cbf8825f8a35737be5b8d08&oe=5CC04EAE)

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51335628_2489647417716278_5943391850332160000_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=79ca0c8b5da65b9b1ba5a7109cf7c581&oe=5CBD19CC)

Please wear the trouser waistband the same hight than in the other pics. At least the back of the waistband is worn much lower then in the other pics.

Quote from: peterle on January 31, 2019, 08:53:02 PM
Please wear the trouser waistband the same hight than in the other pics. At least the back of the waistband is worn much lower then in the other pics.

Decided to confuse y'all and compare to OTR pants with a 13,5 inch rise and see if the waist sits the same, and does.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51281533_2490652734282413_1578458665201958912_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=76b7052d230e5400cb8f319d52709f27&oe=5CB614B6)

Though, now I see the wrinkling in the leg, which later on the muslin realized because I am locking my knees back. Having almost finished reading a University textbook on hygiene from 1937 and these fittings coinciding, been looking at posture and see if can improve it.

The first pictures of the muslin are when first put on. After wearing and letting it go where wanted, IMHO I had pulled the back waist too high. I'm sorry to cause this upset. Thus, why wanted to compare to OTR and see if both settle in the same place and they do.

So here are the correct pictures to compare the fish dart, as same amount of wrinkle as before.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51144400_2490651804282506_1807930156417810432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=9171cc34b0340641540cbdfd7de617d5&oe=5CBAEB77)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51221308_2490651344282552_6122611365191352320_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=a9f396fa6290d6c9c97cfd3355592074&oe=5CC12CC2)

Also, putting the muslin on this morning, find lost two or three centimeter off the waist, so know that will also muddle the fitting. Guess I shouldn't be trying to loose the eggnogg weight now?  :P

Now because I am a system thinker who over thinks, thought to bend half way between a stand and a sit to check fit. I know trousers are supposed to be close, though prefer some ease. Interestingly, the wrinkles go away.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51031512_2490653234282363_7861570677617197056_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=f15f74f8da49a32d386265e89146fce1&oe=5CFEA6B3)

So when shrinking the trouser during dressing, does that still allow the fabric to give?

My thought on thinking on the wrinkling over the last few days is, how many in this unknowing world be looking at my bum and know what the wrinkles mean? Have you seen how these Americans wear there pants with pools of fabric over there shoes, looking like melting into the floor?

Not that wouldn't try to get them out, though don't have to be my usual perfectionist and get it perfectly flat.

It's definitely going to remove them when you bend like that - same cloth over a longer length.

It is only in certain areas that they are shrunk (or stretched), which includes the back of the thigh. There are other methods like raising the back knee-notches and fulling on the fronts, but this is for a later discussion.

The dressing of the trousers won't make them tight.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 03:21:37 AM
It's definitely going to remove them when you bend like that - same cloth over a longer length.

Thus why I didn't bend all the way as understand should be some tightness when seated, just not busting stitches like on the previous.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 03:21:37 AMIt is only in certain areas that they are shrunk (or stretched), which includes the back of the thigh. There are other methods like raising the back knee-notches and fulling on the fronts, but this is for a later discussion.

Fine, will look forward to discussing knee-notches and fulling at a later time.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 03:21:37 AMThe dressing of the trousers won't make them tight.

Will it take out some of the wrinkles?

Quote from: AdrielWill it take out some of the wrinkles?

I say yes, but others may not. As far as I see the drafting system you are using places strong emphasis on accuracy at the cutting stage.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 03:43:13 AM

Quote from: AdrielWill it take out some of the wrinkles?

I say yes, but others may not. As far as I see the drafting system you are using places strong emphasis on accuracy at the cutting stage.

Okay, thus why I wanted to explore correcting the fit so have options, either dressing the trouser or adjusting the pattern.

With my need for extreme accuracy, then seems to fit. What I do have trouble with is stretching the cotton so the front and backs line up, can see where couple places I am off. Why plan to use an inexpensive wool for the next stage and see how that goes. If good to go, then make several in the lower price range and see how do over time, especially as do wash my wool clothes at home (never had them shrink, yet...) rather then have them dry cleaned in chemicals with other peoples' pants, eew. 

Quote from: Adrieleither dressing the trouser or adjusting the pattern.

You still need to do the ironwork either way.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 04:44:57 AM

Quote from: Adrieleither dressing the trouser or adjusting the pattern.

You still need to do the ironwork either way.

Interesting, as was under the impression most trousers were made without dressing, especially the modern drafts.

So why eliminate wrinkling in the fitting if the dressing will remove them?

It's not just for removing wrinkles in an inadequate draft. It's for shaping the trousers (over calf etc).

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 05:09:43 AM
It's not just for removing wrinkles in an inadequate draft. It's for shaping the trousers (over calf etc).

What is inadequate in this draft? Need to do another?

Is there less shaping needed as the legs get wider?

No. You don't need to do another. This draft is adjusted to get the best fit, then when the actual trousers are made you dress them before (and a little after) you stitch them together.
The entire silhouette it is not achieved at the drafting,fitting stage.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 05:31:50 AM
No. You don't need to do another. This draft is adjusted to get the best fit, then when the actual trousers are made you dress them before (and a little after) you stitch them together.
The entire silhouette it is not achieved at the drafting,fitting stage.

Ah, got it, appreciated.

When fitting You always have to care that the garment sits on the body where it´s meant to sit:

In Rundschau trouser patterns the waistband seam is meant to sit right above the edge of the pelvis bone. Please look at the measuring diagramm of the pattern instructions, it´s shown very clearly.

I think You´ve worn it right in the pics of post 71 and wear it too low in the latest pics. That´s why they show so much overlength now and look so much worse than in post 71.

Ironwork is no alternative to adjusting the pattern. The possibilities are limited and you have to know exactly what you do. Certainly not an option for a beginner.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 05:55:41 AM
When fitting You always have to care that the garment sits on the body where it´s meant to sit:

If understanding, using similar rise for the tilt angle does not work?

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 05:55:41 AMIn Rundschau trouser patterns the waistband seam is meant to sit right above the edge of the pelvis bone. Please look at the measuring diagramm of the pattern instructions, it´s shown very clearly.

Actually, the diagram shows the waistband parallel to the floor, not tilted. So then which is correct?

Need to take pictures marking the pelvis top?

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 05:55:41 AMI think You´ve worn it right in the pics of post 71 and wear it too low in the latest pics. That´s why they show so much overlength now and look so much worse than in post 71.

Figured pictures are not working and tailors work in person, so a video come close: https://youtu.be/KDXjmhbOE1Y?

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 05:55:41 AMIronwork is no alternative to adjusting the pattern. The possibilities are limited and you have to know exactly what you do. Certainly not an option for a beginner.

I am getting the feeling you are changing opinion? I am willing to draft, cut, and sew another to nail the fit. In the time of the first draft, have lost two kilos and now taking a measure again, 0,75cm. I hope to go from 81kg to 75kg, put on way too much weight over Winter. Thought wouldn't drop this fast, otherwise would have waited (thought these be Winter trousers then adjust for Summer trousers).

By the way, if I had my way, I get back to 70 kilos, though my doctor was saying too thin for some reason.

And please understand if I didn't value and appreciate the help, would have left long ago. Must be even more frustrating for y'all. Sorry I am so eccentric.

Edit
Had the idea do a fish dart along the seam taking out 1,5cm starting at the lower line (name escapes as needs to eat and tire) and see if that helps, what thinks?

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/50959453_2491312687549751_912446328653479936_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=21e1e7533527651e02db89501e633df7&oe=5CEDDFDF)

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51373660_2491261700888183_8036684899526115328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=b2d40dbd50ebbba643d2ef1a5c9d54b0&oe=5CB2E52D)

Then, pinched some out in the crotch.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51099674_2491314140882939_6786380612119822336_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=4f5f66ac1b4f4c9334cd83b6dd84cbb0&oe=5CFF6DC3)

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51003292_2491335124214174_152228119304994816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=f0a5fec05de75f879c307cfcfa8bace0&oe=5CB72BCC)

What Mr. Peter said got me wondering and just before retiring, came to the thought to check the needle to edge of foot distance. 6mm! Or in other words, 8mm of extra fabric.  :(

Only took in the rear center seam and seems to have helped?
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51168115_2491453774202309_5001978192060219392_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=d9b7fc488ce0fe09dbbae13e48e0fd65&oe=5CFB2770)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51284376_2491454530868900_7188470378014965760_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=299ef3a7588def64d0b188c8cfbd414e&oe=5CF20F2C)

If understanding, using similar rise for the tilt angle does not work?

I don´t understand what you mean.


Actually, the diagram shows the waistband parallel to the floor, not tilted. So then which is correct?
This pattern is meant to have a horizontal waistband.

Need to take pictures marking the pelvis top?

No, just be sure you took your measurments from this point and that you wear the waistseam at this point.


I am getting the feeling you are changing opinion? I am willing to draft, cut, and sew another to nail the fit.
No, you confuse Henry and me.  And no, no new muslin please. Stick with this one.


Had the idea do a fish dart along the seam taking out 1,5cm starting at the lower line (name escapes as needs to eat and tire) and see if that helps, what thinks?

No, doesn´t work.

Then, pinched some out in the crotch.

Doesn´t work either.

I´m waiting for pics with the pinned horizontal dart, but with the trousers worn right.

Side seam, inseam and center front seam have the SA added. The seat seam is drafted netto, so you have to sew it on the drafted line.

What I can say from the vid is, Your waistband is too wide. It should have the same measure as your waist and the waistseam line of the leg parts should be a tad longer than the waistband, because they have to be eased in.

Peterle, I think Adriel's confusion is legitimate. You are telling him that all the fit is achieved through the pattern draft, but it isn't true. The perfection of the fit is completed during making-up as the trousers are worked with the iron. Of course the pattern has to be right before that begins.

You are flying over what I said to him and contradicting me. No matter how great and minutely engineered the the pattern is, without proper working-up they will look like a sack.

No Henry, we do have the same opinion. Ironwork is  necessary to create a nice pair of trousers, but it can´t substitute fitting the pattern.  I think the possibilities of curing an ill fitting pattern with ironwork are limited. Maybe we just differ where these limits are.

Until now we did no alteration to the muslin, and my approach is, to alter the pattern before I consider ironwork. Just my opinion, and no claim to be the one and only way. Maybe your approach is different and I would be glad to know, how you would do the fitting of Adriel´s trousers in detail.

To all the English native speakers out there: Is "to dress" the right term for doing ironwork? I´m not sure about it, because when I hear dress + trousers, I think of the pattern detail for the male anatomy.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PM

If understanding, using similar rise for the tilt angle does not work?

I don´t understand what you mean.

I will say for a third time, trying to copy something to get the correct waistband angle as nothing to go off, especially since my pelvis is tilted and figured affect the fitting.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMActually, the diagram shows the waistband parallel to the floor, not tilted. So then which is correct?
This pattern is meant to have a horizontal waistband.

So why the heck are you trying to have it at a steep angle? Myself think it looks better more horizontal. Or is the steep angle a better way to wear them?

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMNeed to take pictures marking the pelvis top?

No, just be sure you took your measurments from this point and that you wear the waistseam at this point.

Okay.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMI am getting the feeling you are changing opinion? I am willing to draft, cut, and sew another to nail the fit.
No, you confuse Henry and me.  And no, no new muslin please. Stick with this one.

Okay, will hold off on the muslin though still adjust the draft as you are seeming to suggest the rear waistband needs to be heightened plus add width to the rear legs. How much to the rear legs?

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMHad the idea do a fish dart along the seam taking out 1,5cm starting at the lower line (name escapes as needs to eat and tire) and see if that helps, what thinks?

No, doesn´t work.

Then, pinched some out in the crotch.

Doesn´t work either.

So wrinkles removed does not mean a better fit? Appreciate you correcting me on that, so much to learn at times overwhelming.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMI´m waiting for pics with the pinned horizontal dart, but with the trousers worn right.

And I have been waiting for an exact placement of the waistband, why I put a video hoping help. The bottom of the waistband is 112cm off the floor.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMSide seam, inseam and center front seam have the SA added. The seat seam is drafted netto, so you have to sew it on the drafted line.

As you said, I have trouble following instructions, here is an example. No where on the instructions was this stated. All it said was 1cm. With my mental deformity, I need absolute clarity. On one of the drafts it clearly states a larger seam in the seat.

Looks like need to cut and sew another muslin, as too many faults to be corrected. I would clearly state was a new muslin, probably look that way too as this is getting ragged with all the fittings.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 08:26:21 PMWhat I can say from the vid is, Your waistband is too wide. It should have the same measure as your waist and the waistseam line of the leg parts should be a tad longer than the waistband, because they have to be eased in.

Okay, all the waistbands I have seen were sewn on the flat. How does one put ease into cotton or linen when doesn't stretch like wool?

This is the same issue I had getting the legs to align, putting in the ease and stretching.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 01, 2019, 08:49:49 PM
Peterle, I think Adriel's confusion is legitimate. You are telling him that all the fit is achieved through the pattern draft, but it isn't true. The perfection of the fit is completed during making-up as the trousers are worked with the iron. Of course the pattern has to be right before that begins.

You are flying over what I said to him and contradicting me. No matter how great and minutely engineered the the pattern is, without proper working-up they will look like a sack.

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 10:29:12 PM
No Henry, we do have the same opinion. Ironwork is  necessary to create a nice pair of trousers, but it can´t substitute fitting the pattern.  I think the possibilities of curing an ill fitting pattern with ironwork are limited. Maybe we just differ where these limits are.

Until now we did no alteration to the muslin, and my approach is, to alter the pattern before I consider ironwork. Just my opinion, and no claim to be the one and only way. Maybe your approach is different and I would be glad to know, how you would do the fitting of Adriel´s trousers in detail.

To all the English native speakers out there: Is "to dress" the right term for doing ironwork? I´m not sure about it, because when I hear dress + trousers, I think of the pattern detail for the male anatomy.

I wanted to say sorry, it was posaune who said "And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. before you sew the new one together do it! You have done excellent. I might have also done that on the rear leg width, sorry if did.

As y'all said, this pattern is way off. Now thinking again, after get back from an errand will cut a new muslin with the corrected seam allowances, no inlays in the crotch seams, and inlay in the side seams. Since I am not keen on Peter's suggestion for even steeper waistband angle, will leave that alone. I know still not going to be 100 percent because lost weight, just not willing to draft another when hoping to drop a few more kilos. Then we can go through this fun process all over again.  :P

Quote from: peterle on February 01, 2019, 10:29:12 PM
No Henry, we do have the same opinion. Ironwork is  necessary to create a nice pair of trousers, but it can´t substitute fitting the pattern.  I think the possibilities of curing an ill fitting pattern with ironwork are limited. Maybe we just differ where these limits are.

Until now we did no alteration to the muslin, and my approach is, to alter the pattern before I consider ironwork. Just my opinion, and no claim to be the one and only way. Maybe your approach is different and I would be glad to know, how you would do the fitting of Adriel´s trousers in detail.

To all the English native speakers out there: Is "to dress" the right term for doing ironwork? I´m not sure about it, because when I hear dress + trousers, I think of the pattern detail for the male anatomy.

I agree it is by no means a substitute for fitting the pattern; I'm not suggesting it should be. I was answering Adriel when he was talking about correcting the pattern 'or' ironwork, since both must be done.

My apologies for coming across as bellicose.

When I usually think of dress I also think about the topside reduction for anatomy. I've seen the term used for ironwork but it's best to probably just say 'ironwork' to minimise confusion.

Adriel You keep misunderstandig me. I don´t want you to do a steeper waistband angle. In contrary. Please read my post 77, where I say it is too slanted. I just want you to pull the garment up like you did in post 71.

And nobody said the pattern is off. Everybody said it fitts pretty well.

Please read http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399 (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399). There is a picture of rundschau trousers, the actual sewing lines and inlays. The solid lines are the lines you drafted in the pattern. The dotted lines are the actual sewing lines. The seat seam is sewn in the drafted line. the grey areas are the inlays, wich are to be added in the cuttin stage. You can also add some inlays at the side seams.

Quote from: peterle on February 02, 2019, 04:10:36 AM
Adriel You keep misunderstandig me. I don´t want you to do a steeper waistband angle. In contrary. Please read my post 77, where I say it is too slanted. I just want you to pull the garment up like you did in post 71.

Ah, post numbers.  :) Okay, thought you meant 60 for some reason, sorry.  :-[

Now you say to pull the back down further again without any clear instructions despite given plenty of means to do so?  ???

Too slanted means noting to this imbecile.

Also, sure looks like the angles are the same to me, after number 60 did as furthest it goes down:
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51217604_2492499397431080_6221236351317049344_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=743bc76073cb0694d18458d0f26f57ce&oe=5CED24D8)

I can't get the line horizontal unless cut down the back and then worry be even more excess of fabric.

Quote from: peterle on February 02, 2019, 04:10:36 AMAnd nobody said the pattern is off. Everybody said it fitts pretty well.

Then you were incorrect when said this:

Quote from: peterle on January 30, 2019, 11:46:45 PMYes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.

?

I am so confused...

Quote from: peterle on February 02, 2019, 04:10:36 AMPlease read http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399 (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=399). There is a picture of rundschau trousers, the actual sewing lines and inlays.

Wahoo, that's what I needed, pictures!  :) Plus, can use this later when draft other clothes.

And that says what I said: need inlays also in the side seams. Plus, note "The last is cut away just above the fork, a indicated."

Too bad Cutter and Tailor is shutting down, thus not allowing new members (why else not allow new members), so I can't search on their for these wonderful articles. At least there is this one last forum and the few who are here, so blessed.

This morning did not go to plan, will cut the yardage needed and get washed this afternoon. Hopefully can get cut before dark, then sew up tomorrow. Will be sure to add width to the rear leg width and hopefully get some of the wrinkles out. I mean, no way to add fabric and count at least for large flaws which seem to have secret resolution, like the secret word "spalt". Or what am I missing? Is there a dictionary of these terms I need to go check out of a library?

Close doesn't get the battle won.  :P So, if to get a perfect fit have to start again because I didn't know several things and did wrong, so be it. Good things come to those that wait and work hard. It took almost 20 years to realize the dream to make my own clothes, so why can't I wait another year?

Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.
And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. This was me not Peterle.

??? Sorry, that I gave the wrong impression what started this discussion. As I wrote " If you give......." And if you dress the trouser After (should have been added) this - it will...............
My english is not good enough for this discussion.
lg
posaune
spalt is crotch diameter -  it is seperateley calculated front and back.

Quote from: posaune on February 02, 2019, 08:11:01 AM
Yes there are some little drags at the rear. This always indicates length and widths defaults. The width (needed) is coming in my opion from the front pattern. It pulls at the back. If you give a bit more front "spalt" then the back trouser will move up.
And if you dress the trouser, it will go away and it will be a very good fitting one. This was me not Peterle.

??? Sorry, that I gave the wrong impression what started this discussion. As I wrote " If you give......." And if you dress the trouser After (should have been added) this - it will...............
My english is not good enough for this discussion.
lg
posaune
spalt is crotch diameter -  it is seperateley calculated front and back.

Appreciate the clarification, so much going on and with a Schädel-Hirn-Trauma already a wonder I can remember what I do.  :-[  :P

Your English is better then some native speakers.  ;)

If you need to, would rather you help in German and if know it is German, then will get out my dictionary and have a look. A lot of times German close enough to to English it's easy. For example, Licht. So I look up spalt and come up with crevice, which if I am understanding, makes sense as where the measurement is, as B5 though S2 and B1 to S4.

For me, it is remembering the endings that go with parts of speech, as also have trouble with parts of speech in English (example, verb and noun).

So let out the spalt where? Tiefer machen S2 to S6?

I did understand dressing the trouser help with the wrinkles, though as been made very clear, will not take them all out.

Had a thought, why not use the Rundschau points instead of English terms? Just tossing that out there...

So close to chalking, and the iron quit... LOL

Do you need the iron to chalk?

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 02, 2019, 09:26:15 PM
Do you need the iron to chalk?

Got it going again, sure hope can make the trip and get Oma's vintage iron, don't make them like they used to, though was free (roommate left behind as moved back to UAE where already had).

I now wash the muslin to get what seems starch off (gets sticky when damp), then iron flat so no additions to the fit, pin the fabric to the pattern, tape the pastern in the window, trace, lay on the flat file and add the additions, cut, then hang on a hanger until ready to be sewn. Seams get pressed open. After sewn, gets final press and back on a hanger. This muslin loves to get deep creases if you so much as look at it wrong. So this plastic fantastic domestic iron gets used a lot.

Seems scared off everyone but you, glad to have someone around otherwise go back into a funk.  :)

Been trying to decide if post these, figured will just to conclude the thread.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51431084_2497681800246173_4943322850195931136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=c61c5160ead4f64488be1ca7db457762&oe=5CE5F2C5)

(https://scontent.fhhr1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51245411_2497681803579506_8726100607359778816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-1.fna&oh=d93d192bfcb4e38f12c6765a97dc9c9f&oe=5CF7D3F3)

(https://scontent.fhhr1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51495288_2497681880246165_5744258556396306432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-2.fna&oh=d6346c831c41d90e7783af91e8c4f0b4&oe=5CE70511)

Tightness at seat? Have you been at the cake again?

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 09, 2019, 06:39:55 AM
Tightness at seat? Have you been at the cake again?

LMAO!

I feel like the thighs are tighter this time, can 4mm on one side make that much difference?

Also thinking I am not creating the front fly correctly. On the draft, does the front crotch also get SA added?

I don't know about this Rundschau draft, but the fly usually takes a pretty narrow seam. You probably need to cut out and baste in a dummy fly to test it rather than just sewing the fronts together.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 09, 2019, 10:41:52 AM
I don't know about this Rundschau draft, but the fly usually takes a pretty narrow seam. You probably need to cut out and baste in a dummy fly to test it rather than just sewing the fronts together.

Only sewn to the bottom of the fly. I am talking about the seam next to dress, which then affects how the fly lays.

What do you mean by narrow, 0,5cm/1/4"?

By the way, doing well with the diet, waist down to 83cm, three more to go if really want to be in good shape. 90cm seat. Oh and if over eat, it's because I stayed up too late and needed a snack, which is a nutrition bar (eat them instead of cookies and other deserts as figure one way to keep the weight off and keep a high protein diet). So now getting up earlier and doing more before breakfast, sometimes skipping the morning snack despite I am supposed to eat every two hours to keep the blood sugar from dropping too low.

Something interesting happening due to physical therapy for the right shoulder: my arm holes are getting tight in my coats. Also, tried subluxing the left shoulder and doesn't do it. The doctors said when a teen have to have surgery and obviously wrong, the muscles obviously have built up. Point is, glad started with the trousers as would have been chasing my tail on a coat/waistcoat.

Ordered the wool suiting fabric this evening. Figured stick with a solid for checking fit. Supposedly in a medium brown, bought it because $8 a yard, least expensive on eBay. Claims to come in on the 14th, so looking forward.

Hi Adriel
s.a. are not allowed at the back crotch seam and the hem.
When you learn the draft you do samples. Make one for the fly in 1:4 : It is quick done.
See your pic: Hip line dipps as before. Pin it up like Peterle told you , but do it maybe 4 cm under the back waistband. Than you can controll at hip line if it is sufficient.
You have to work an you front pattern as I wrote before. It will give you more crotch diameter (Spalt) - all folds running in that directions
lg
posaune

Quote from: posaune on February 09, 2019, 11:03:42 PM
Hi Adriel

Guten Morgen posaune.

Quote from: posaune on February 09, 2019, 11:03:42 PMs.a. are not allowed at the back crotch seam and the hem.

In other words, what I said that they are added on when chalking on the fabric.

Quote from: posaune on February 09, 2019, 11:03:42 PMWhen you learn the draft you do samples. Make one for the fly in 1:4 : It is quick done.

Okay, danke für die Hilfe.

Quote from: posaune on February 09, 2019, 11:03:42 PMSee your pic: Hip line dipps as before. Pin it up like Peterle told you , but do it maybe 4 cm under the back waistband. Than you can controll at hip line if it is sufficient.

Went with 0,75cm taken out feeling 1,5cm was too much last time, seems to be correct guess as hip line is strait?

Sitting in them now and oddly doesn't feel as tight in the spalt as before the fishform dart.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51620112_2505192046161815_419589760466550784_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=4e8ecf94ed54062394cdf6552c163d4b&oe=5CDF028F)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51588870_2505192092828477_3237029886497390592_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=48627703aee6ad3fb5b3dbcc77207848&oe=5CB3486E)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51733956_2505192152828471_3775048246255157248_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=5f872339b44f8e6c8db1d29f3a851854&oe=5CB28032)

Quote from: posaune on February 09, 2019, 11:03:42 PMYou have to work an you front pattern as I wrote before. It will give you more crotch diameter (Spalt) - all folds running in that directions

Putting on the muslin this morning, realized last time popped the seams in the area of dress, not sure how that happened or how to fix, do you have a diagram or picture of what you mean? I am just not seeing it...

(https://scontent.fhhr1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51633398_2505102722837414_1389575924898332672_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-2.fna&oh=95db4fab9fba17fba5c3356fe4e1ce14&oe=5CF3E445)

You see you should add to the front.
I give you a pic about enlarging the front 1 cm. You cut at center. You slide each panel o.5 cm to the right and left. You enlarge the front crotch diameter so that you will have 0.5 cm more. Now connect back to the knees. You have to enlarge your waist dart. But seeing your side view I would enlarge the back dart this amount, so the seam would run more straight. This a  very modest alteration - you add 2 cm more in front.

For the zipper there are more than one way to do this. I attach 2 pics from my leaflet which shows how to sew in the zipper. It is not the way the master tailor do it. It is my way and it works for me.
good luck
lg
posaune

(https://i.postimg.cc/NyvzwbRR/enlarging-Frontpattern.png) (https://postimg.cc/NyvzwbRR)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Q999kgnn/hoseschllibein.png) (https://postimg.cc/Q999kgnn)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JsrsdC2X/hoseschllibein2.png) (https://postimg.cc/JsrsdC2X)

Quote from: posaune on February 10, 2019, 10:03:34 PM
You see you should add to the front.
I give you a pic about enlarging the front 1 cm. You cut at center. You slide each panel o.5 cm to the right and left. You enlarge the front crotch diameter so that you will have 0.5 cm more. Now connect back to the knees. You have to enlarge your waist dart. But seeing your side view I would enlarge the back dart this amount, so the seam would run more straight. This a  very modest alteration - you add 2 cm more in front.

There was no how to, so took a guess. Hopefully right, feels better, more room for dress.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51842300_2507509482596738_5548142674554388480_n.jpg?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=477bd656924f5b74fde8d5678ddc01a1&oe=5CE4B00E)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51924509_2507509442596742_8447769782932996096_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=17dc48e7185aa72905c022478ea4ef30&oe=5CFD7006)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51581896_2507509469263406_658968581593104384_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=0667c0b83b6801aea115639b65e502c3&oe=5CF0A51F)

Quote from: posaune on February 10, 2019, 10:03:34 PMFor the zipper there are more than one way to do this. I attach 2 pics from my leaflet which shows how to sew in the zipper. It is not the way the master tailor do it. It is my way and it works for me.

That is a good help, however, guess I am not clear. Ich gemeint Konstruktion, nicht Material. Really late and been ages, so hopefully not too off. This is the fourth trouser ever sewn, only watched one short video, nothing more, nothing less.

I also sewed in the fishform dart so hopefully get a more honest drape.

Danke!  :)

The wool fabric for the trial trouser and later other parts of the suit arrived today, two days shipping! So no set in creases and immediately draped over the ironing board.

Was supposed to be a medium brown, however a medium dark taupe or grey depending on the light. Been watching it in the sunlight all day and is playful. Interesting weave also. Looking forward to getting started on the trouser, though first need the help adjusting the pattern.  :P 

Here is the how to of Posaunes post:

Take your muslin apart.
Find the line S-S2 on your muslin.
On this line mark a 0,5cm distance at S and another one at S2.
Find the waistline on your muslin.
On this line mark a 0,5cm distance at b1 and another one at B1.
Take your paper pattern and put it on your muslin, point S and point b1 matching the new marks.
Using you paper pattern as a template redraw the sideseam from S upwards to the waistline. The new line should be parallel to the old one but 0,5mm apart.
Redraw the fly seam in the same manner, 0,5cm apart from the old.
Now mark another 0,5cm on the muslin at  the new S2.
Now put the paper pattern on the muslin, matching K2 and the new mark. Redraw the inseam from K2 to S2 using the paper pattern as a template.
Also redraw the outer seam from K1 to S, using the paper pattern as template.

That´s it. Resew the muslin and try it on.

Quote from: peterle on February 12, 2019, 09:37:50 PM
Here is the how to of Posaunes post:

Take your muslin apart.
Find the line S-S2 on your muslin.
On this line mark a 0,5cm distance at S and another one at S2.
Find the waistline on your muslin.
On this line mark a 0,5cm distance at b1 and another one at B1.
Take your paper pattern and put it on your muslin, point S and point b1 matching the new marks.
Using you paper pattern as a template redraw the sideseam from S upwards to the waistline. The new line should be parallel to the old one but 0,5mm apart.
Redraw the fly seam in the same manner, 0,5cm apart from the old.
Now mark another 0,5cm on the muslin at  the new S2.
Now put the paper pattern on the muslin, matching K2 and the new mark. Redraw the inseam from K2 to S2 using the paper pattern as a template.
Also redraw the outer seam from K1 to S, using the paper pattern as template.

That´s it. Resew the muslin and try it on.

I am so confused, why sew another muslin? Can't I simply adjust the pattern in the same way since you and posaune agree the fit is correct?

On the pattern, not understanding how S and S2 move, are you saying move out each 0,5cm to lengthen the line 1cm?

So also lengthen b1 to b2 by 1cm also?

So take an additional 1cm each at the dart? The 2cm of fabric has to go somewhere and rather not take it up in the waistband seam.

Seems this all is for the front and doesn't answer the question which I had: how to take the fishform dart out of the rear?

My thought is to split the pattern and tape back together, though rather spend another couple weeks going through the process rather than to waste wool fabric.

Again, know really appreciate all the help, went from lousy to amazing, to really amazing feel.  :)

Oh and here is the image which didn't post:
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51635722_2508976569116696_5104394380177833984_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=ca43f1ca937af8ec00a37a04448637d9&oe=5CE606FD) Color not showing quite right, more grey.

Yes, lentghten the line S-S2 0,5cm to both sides. Also at B1 and B2. with these marks you can use your paper pattern as a template.
The procedure makes each top side 1cm wider. As Posaune wrote, take this additional 1cm out with a wider back dart.
When we see the new muslin we can say wehter the alteration was successfull. You should change the paper pattern later.

Quote from: peterle on February 13, 2019, 04:07:24 AM
Yes, lentghten the line S-S2 0,5cm to both sides. Also at B1 and B2. with these marks you can use your paper pattern as a template.
The procedure makes each top side 1cm wider. As Posaune wrote, take this additional 1cm out with a wider back dart.
When we see the new muslin we can say wehter the alteration was successfull. You should change the paper pattern later.

Oh! I got you, the pictures are not showing on the public side, just mine. Okay, will go fix the darts (which then will total 3cm) and try again on the pictures.

Let's try this again, with everything sewn.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51849533_2510960032251683_8525108966974291968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bdc7e7c829e3c8997280daf75f3ea8d0&oe=5CDA8995)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51854097_2510960035585016_7237429105359060992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=06e0d0a41690283baea0b6f147d69307&oe=5CDAE559)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52536875_2510960098918343_5000647890364792832_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bc30d649a8f5efdfe0f96ce17370c7ed&oe=5CF763C1)

Couple of things I noticed. One, the crease in the rear instead of angling toward the top center as all my pants seem to do, now vertical. Second, this is the second pair of trousers I have that have enough room for dress, thank y'all!  :)

Let's try this again, with everything sewn.

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51849533_2510960032251683_8525108966974291968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bdc7e7c829e3c8997280daf75f3ea8d0&oe=5CDA8995)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51854097_2510960035585016_7237429105359060992_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=06e0d0a41690283baea0b6f147d69307&oe=5CDAE559)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52536875_2510960098918343_5000647890364792832_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bc30d649a8f5efdfe0f96ce17370c7ed&oe=5CF763C1)

Couple of things I noticed. One, the crease in the rear instead of angling toward the top center as all my pants seem to do, now vertical. Second, this is the second pair of trousers I have that have enough room for dress, thank y'all!  :)

So did you make the fronts wider? Seems yet too tight to me. When doing pockets, they will gape enormousely.

I agree with peterle,  What you are wearing in this image has no ease whatever. It looks nice and tight, which is the fashion. On the other hand, can you imagine sitting down in them? They would surely rip. Even stairs will be too difficult.  A tight fit can have movement.

In any case, the modern style is only possible with stretch fabric, and these drafts are not designed for that kind of fabric.

It only needs a bit more ease.

G

Quote from: peterle on February 13, 2019, 08:59:08 PM
So did you make the fronts wider? Seems yet too tight to me. When doing pockets, they will gape enormousely.

Good to know, appreciated.  :)

I have a pair with no pockets and love it. I don't use them anyway, so why have them?

Now that think about it, maybe that is why women's clothes in general don't have pockets: tight fitting and pockets would gape.

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on February 14, 2019, 12:02:06 AM
I agree with peterle,  What you are wearing in this image has no ease whatever. It looks nice and tight, which is the fashion. On the other hand, can you imagine sitting down in them? They would surely rip. Even stairs will be too difficult.  A tight fit can have movement.

In any case, the modern style is only possible with stretch fabric, and these drafts are not designed for that kind of fabric.

It only needs a bit more ease.

G

I don't want to argue as not polite, simply to provide information for a discussion. As you might already be aware, I enjoy discussions too much...  :P

After I try on a garment and the pictures are done, most times wear it for a while, though last time braved it and went and got the mail. Heck, just so happens I climbed a ladder to put up laundry yesterday while wearing these, be willing to demonstrate.  :P That is why I know about the dress fitting. When sitting, there is no pulling. However, they have less ease after the darts were taken. These pictures I posted earlier though didn't go though show the difference. I left the old dart stitches in if needed to go back, do I?

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51431084_2497681800246173_4943322850195931136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=c61c5160ead4f64488be1ca7db457762&oe=5CE5F2C5)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51245411_2497681803579506_8726100607359778816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=9b2fe74600fb9a46d5f6fb8b736048e3&oe=5CF7D3F3)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51495288_2497681880246165_5744258556396306432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=269ba8a932221e43a50d46fef3a89a55&oe=5CE70511)

Quote from: peterle on February 13, 2019, 08:59:08 PM
So did you make the fronts wider? Seems yet too tight to me. When doing pockets, they will gape enormousely.

Good to know, appreciated.  :)

I have a pair with no pockets and love it. I don't use them anyway, so why have them?

Now that think about it, maybe that is why women's clothes in general don't have pockets: tight fitting and pockets would gape.

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on February 14, 2019, 12:02:06 AM
I agree with peterle,  What you are wearing in this image has no ease whatever. It looks nice and tight, which is the fashion. On the other hand, can you imagine sitting down in them? They would surely rip. Even stairs will be too difficult.  A tight fit can have movement.

In any case, the modern style is only possible with stretch fabric, and these drafts are not designed for that kind of fabric.

It only needs a bit more ease.

G

I don't want to argue as not polite, simply to provide information for a discussion. As you might already be aware, I enjoy discussions too much...  :P

After I try on a garment and the pictures are done, most times wear it for a while, though last time braved it and went and got the mail. Heck, just so happens I climbed a ladder to put up laundry yesterday while wearing these, be willing to demonstrate.  :P That is why I know about the dress fitting. When sitting, there is no pulling. However, they have less ease after the darts were taken. These pictures I posted earlier though didn't go though show the difference. I left the old dart stitches in if needed to go back, do I?

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51431084_2497681800246173_4943322850195931136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=c61c5160ead4f64488be1ca7db457762&oe=5CE5F2C5)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51245411_2497681803579506_8726100607359778816_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=9b2fe74600fb9a46d5f6fb8b736048e3&oe=5CF7D3F3)

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51495288_2497681880246165_5744258556396306432_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=269ba8a932221e43a50d46fef3a89a55&oe=5CE70511)

what do you mean with: "they have less ease after the darts were taken"?

Quote from: peterle on February 14, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
what do you mean with: "they have less ease after the darts were taken"?

Regarding your statement:

Quote from: peterle on February 13, 2019, 04:07:24 AMAs Posaune wrote, take this additional 1cm out with a wider back dart.

Doing so has gone from this:

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51431084_2497681800246173_4943322850195931136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=c61c5160ead4f64488be1ca7db457762&oe=5CE5F2C5)

to this:
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51849533_2510960032251683_8525108966974291968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bdc7e7c829e3c8997280daf75f3ea8d0&oe=5CDA8995).

Quote from: peterle on February 14, 2019, 03:31:21 AM
what do you mean with: "they have less ease after the darts were taken"?

Regarding your statement:

Quote from: peterle on February 13, 2019, 04:07:24 AMAs Posaune wrote, take this additional 1cm out with a wider back dart.

Doing so has gone from this:

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51431084_2497681800246173_4943322850195931136_n.jpg?_nc_cat=101&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=c61c5160ead4f64488be1ca7db457762&oe=5CE5F2C5)

to this:
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51849533_2510960032251683_8525108966974291968_n.jpg?_nc_cat=111&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=bdc7e7c829e3c8997280daf75f3ea8d0&oe=5CDA8995).

I'm now really baffled! Why are there now two enormously long darts in the fronts? Why is the entire circumference from under the waistband to about the seat-line exactly the same as before?

You simply must have ease over that area or the trousers will not fit properly in wear. They will be terrible when sitting; the pockets (as Peterle mentioned) will stick out like dog's ears; they will ride up around the seat-hips.

I can see there's some loose material under the seat and at the top of the thigh, but above it there's nothing!

If you add some and then take it away in a dart it's like none was added in the first place! The fronts are not broad enough at the seat, that is basically it. So whatever wizardry is done between S-S2 and all these shenanigans, you basically just have to add more actual girth measurement to that area.

The end.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 08:00:34 AM
I'm now really baffled! Why are there now two enormously long darts in the fronts? Why is the entire circumference from under the waistband to about the seat-line exactly the same as before?

How much of the thread have you slogged though so I know how to summarize? I so need to work on saying even less...

First, they are not darts:

Quote from: posaune on February 10, 2019, 10:03:34 PM
You see you should add to the front.
I give you a pic about enlarging the front 1 cm. You cut at center. You slide each panel o.5 cm to the right and left. You enlarge the front crotch diameter so that you will have 0.5 cm more. Now connect back to the knees. You have to enlarge your waist dart. But seeing your side view I would enlarge the back dart this amount, so the seam would run more straight. This a  very modest alteration - you add 2 cm more in front.

[...]

(https://i.postimg.cc/NyvzwbRR/enlarging-Frontpattern.png) (https://postimg.cc/NyvzwbRR)

[...]

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 08:00:34 AMYou simply must have ease over that area or the trousers will not fit properly in wear. They will be terrible when sitting; the pockets (as Peterle mentioned) will stick out like dog's ears; they will ride up around the seat-hips.

Second, not sure what this diagonal circumference is. As to things being the same, only the waist stayed the same as fine, needed more dress room, as seen in this picture.

(https://scontent.fhhr1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/51633398_2505102722837414_1389575924898332672_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ht=scontent.fhhr1-2.fna&oh=95db4fab9fba17fba5c3356fe4e1ce14&oe=5CF3E445)

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 08:00:34 AMI can see there's some loose material under the seat and at the top of the thigh, but above it there's nothing!

Because of the fishform dart which was told to put in. As I understand, if the fabric was skin tight as seems some want, one could not sit down without seams ripping. Or, are you saying should be loose fabric the whole way up?

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 08:00:34 AMIf you add some and then take it away in a dart it's like none was added in the first place! The fronts are not broad enough at the seat, that is basically it. So whatever wizardry is done between S-S2 and all these shenanigans, you basically just have to add more actual girth measurement to that area.

I am not following. Darts remove fabric and splits add fabric. When fabric is added one place sometimes needs to be removed in another. Since 1cm was added to the front was instructed to also remove 1cm from the back.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 08:00:34 AMThe end.

The end of what? I am honestly puzzled how this relates.  ???

Hopefully gone from clear as mud to clear as used engine oel.  :P

Okay. I had missed the additions. I didn't enlarge the photos and thought they were darts. Sorry, my mistake. It still baffles me though because I can't remember how you got from having excess cloth to needing to add pieces to enlarge. Even then, with these additions  it's still tight around the seat and fronts.

They are too tight around the hips. They need more ease at the hips. Why don't they have more ease? You must see that those brown trousers you had as model have more ease in the hips than these. This is why I am perplexed.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
Okay. I had missed the additions. I didn't enlarge the photos and thought they were darts. Sorry, my mistake. It still baffles me though because I can't remember how you got from having excess cloth to needing to add pieces to enlarge. Even then, with these additions  it's still tight around the seat and fronts.

They are too tight around the hips. They need more ease at the hips. Why don't they have more ease? You must see that those brown trousers you had as model have more ease in the hips than these. This is why I am perplexed.

And thus why I showed before taking in the darts an additional 1cm. If that is a better fit, then can take out. If y'all think some needs to come out, then can go to pinning. At least the fitting is done, now down to just the darts, or in other words, the style. Right?

The other thing is was told to ease in the waistband, though how much not clarified, so set in so actual waist measurement minus 2cm. So that is the only other place I can think of that could go wrong.

I'm calm again. Carry on as normal sir. We shall see what we see!

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 14, 2019, 11:40:26 AM
I'm calm again. Carry on as normal sir. We shall see what we see!

LOL I thought you were calm all this time. Stay calm and tailor.  :P

You provided wonderful help in now there is more clarity so hopefully those more familiar with the draft can help.  :)

By the way, I realized I was hyper focusing and obsessing, not getting my Vater's coat done and warm weather soon be here. Going to be much easier as not going to do any fitting since a work coat with raglan sleeves. Still doing a muslin of course and making both long so can be used later if needed.

I think you didn´t do the alteration right. Just making slits doesn´t change anything. And why are the slits wider at the top?

Please do the alteration the way I wrote in Post#123.

Quote from: peterle on February 14, 2019, 08:52:11 PM
I think you didn´t do the alteration right. Just making slits doesn´t change anything. And why are the slits wider at the top?

Why are you getting mean, what did I do to deserve it?

What is wrong with posaune's method? As you can see before taking in the darts, plenty of ease. Or did the pictures not load again or too dark?

So are you saying darts have no impact on fit?

Quote from: peterle on February 14, 2019, 08:52:11 PMPlease do the alteration the way I wrote in Post#123.

I live on a very limited income and at this point in the month, not able to purchase more muslin. Therefore, I am not able to sew up yet another muslin because of this disagreements between you and posaune. I would much prefer a general consensus between you both so when I do a method or fitting, not having to do yet another fitting or worse another muslin. I do understand each has their own method, though this jerking around is very difficult for this Autistic.

Maybe I should move this over to another section of Bespoke Tailor and Cutter so can get the help on the darts as seeming now to the advanced level?

What I wrote in post 123 is Posaunes alteration. It does exactly what her scetch shows. We don´t disagree. Trust me.

The aim of the alteration is to make the fronts wider at the crotch line(S-S2) and above. The slits and insertions you did, make the trousers just a bit wider at the waistline but not at the crotch line. They are as tight as before.

I think you have inlays at the side seam, use these for the alteration. Don´t cut a new muslin, change the old.

Quote from: peterle on February 15, 2019, 03:45:17 AM
What I wrote in post 123 is Posaunes alteration. It does exactly what her scetch shows. We don´t disagree. Trust me.

I am just going by what you said. So then why another muslin if the results are the same?

Quote from: peterle on February 15, 2019, 03:45:17 AMThe aim of the alteration is to make the fronts wider at the crotch line(S-S2) and above. The slits and insertions you did, make the trousers just a bit wider at the waistline but not at the crotch line. They are as tight as before.

So spit further down? That does differ as Posaune has it about mid point according to the diagram.

Quote from: peterle on February 15, 2019, 03:45:17 AMI think you have inlays at the side seam, use these for the alteration. Don´t cut a new muslin, change the old.

Now you want side seam? This is what gets frustrating, as an Autistic I need consistency please.

How can I cut an inlay and spread an inlay? If I can, then yes, no new muslin needed. However, if can't, then a new one has to.

You misinterpret Posaune´s diagram. Look at the new lines in red and compare it to the black old lines. You will see, that the pattern gets 1,5cm wider where the crotch line crosses the sideseam and the inseam.
Your alteration doesn´t make anything wider at the crotch line. Your alteration is wrong.

That´s why I wrote post 123. It is the only way to carry out Posaune´s diagramm.

Quote from: peterle on February 15, 2019, 06:05:57 AM
You misinterpret Posaune´s diagram. Look at the new lines in red and compare it to the black old lines. You will see, that the pattern gets 1,5cm wider where the crotch line crosses the sideseam and the inseam.
Your alteration doesn´t make anything wider at the crotch line. Your alteration is wrong.

That´s why I wrote post 123. It is the only way to carry out Posaune´s diagramm.

I am sorry, with my Autism I need clarity. The sudden switch from site spit to crotch was not noticed.

The alteration isn't wrong, please refrain from being nasty. If you look at the diagram regarding the spit and not the crotch, did exactly as drawn.

However, I did attempt Posaune's crotch adjustment to a degree, no answer back on going to the knees. Since lacking instructions on how to adjust a muslin and unable to create a new one, let out from four points on up to the line. Now instead of all that pulling as before, sits flat. I don't want to argue over this as you seem to desire, rather to solve this great mystery of how to sew the front crotch to be sure I am doing it correctly. Yes, there is videos, though none address a bespoke draft and specifically this system.

Once the fit is close on this and with the correction to the crotch seam manner, then will adjust the draft and sew a wool trial to this new fit and have it checked.

And to seat seams spitting, I present this:  :P
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52582500_2513864605294559_7456708892584574976_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=0f6aef3432a60c3cd7c1c745fd2c4925&oe=5CE35A62)

Hopefully that will lighten things up and get moving onto fixing the crotch.  :)

Sorry, I 'll leave this thread now. Peterle and I are real d'accord, Adriel. Because my english is not so good  - he kindly writes the explaination.
I do not know why there is so much interpretation needed  to see in the pic what is going on.  You front hip is to small. Enlarge it. But not your waist.
I wish you much success with your work.
posaune

Adriel, my dear fellow, you only need to widen the fronts at the crotch-line. This is an easy operation and the instructions for doing it were pretty thorough.

There should have been enough inlay cut onto the original muslin to allow for all these fitting issues. If there isn't just sew pieces on and be done with it, it's only a model for the pattern.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 16, 2019, 03:48:36 AM
Adriel, my dear fellow, you only need to widen the fronts at the crotch-line. This is an easy operation and the instructions for doing it were pretty thorough.

There should have been enough inlay cut onto the original muslin to allow for all these fitting issues. If there isn't just sew pieces on and be done with it, it's only a model for the pattern.

Took a break to clear my head, lot of family drama causing distraction. Sometimes feel like shutting of the mobile and ignoring it all.

No inlay on the front panel in this system, if all then onto the wool and add 2cm inlay front and back? Looking like will have to figure out how to modify the back pattern myself.

On trousers the normal inlays are always on the back panels, but you know when I'm trying out a new pattern or using a muslin on a figure I think will be tricky to fit, I whack a bit on the topsides just in case. Plus I whip up a basic fly so I know how it will sit with a fly in.

You don't need to figure out the back panels by yourself, Peterle really did give clear instructions.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 17, 2019, 06:43:00 AM
On trousers the normal inlays are always on the back panels, but you know when I'm trying out a new pattern or using a muslin on a figure I think will be tricky to fit, I whack a bit on the topsides just in case. Plus I whip up a basic fly so I know how it will sit with a fly in.

Great idea, appreciated!  :) I am literal minded so when say inlay the back, I think not to do the front. Maybe even for the first few different fabrics do this, as not like will be any significant additional amount.

The book on just trousers supposedly be here Sunday, then can check the fly method.

Quote from: Henry Hall on February 17, 2019, 06:43:00 AMYou don't need to figure out the back panels by yourself, Peterle really did give clear instructions.

On the paper pattern? I don't recall seeing, only for the fabric. Regarding those instructions, was not clear to this mentally deformed and damaged (Autism and two TBIs).

(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52793136_2534849219862764_5336637869056327680_n.jpg?_nc_cat=110&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=f079402e16d9cfa24c6e9aa0534c5168&oe=5D23029B)

Correct?

Spalt seam gets chalked strait?


Thank y'all in advance!  :)