Hi All, just finished this pair of jeans I created using the Chaudhry western jeans draft from T&C. I have used some very soft Japanese denim, the loveliest denim material I have ever held in my hands; but, boy does it fray! I've had 3 orders for bespoke jeans from friends.
I found the draft to be okay though I had to change the silhouette a bit to fit my flat seat. One thing I should have done is to add a small dart in the yoke to offer a small amount of shape in that area, or so female friend of mine told me on Saturday night. I also didn't allow for felled seams on the inseam, crotch, seat and yoke. I added a quarter inch at CF to allow for my slight corpulence. Also I drafted a slight bow to the leg bottoms so they fit over boots well, though have removed this on the final pattern opting to add to the cloth when required. My final modification to the draft was to make the Ostinelli alteration to accommodate my protruding hips and calfs.
Construction was carried out in the same way I would put a pair of wool trousers together, my only issue was "what the heck am I going to put on the back pocket". The pocket frog I feel is a little to large so I have now changed that for the final oaktag pattern, as you can see in the pattern layover below. Starting point was to see if I could do proper ironwork on this kind of cloth, I reasoned that it was natural fibre so should behave in a comparable way. The ironwork turned out to be a breeze better than some of the wool I have used, I managed to impart a great shaping to the panels. I used a combination of my lockstitch machine and hand sewing, taking me no less or longer time than normal.
C and Cs gladly received.
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%201%20of%202_zpsmnpizdy8.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%202%20of%202_zpsaf7p71eu.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%201%20of%2012_zpsynpqxt2u.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%202%20of%2012_zpsjmbsoavg.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%203%20of%2012_zpsyjvogtmm.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%204%20of%2012_zpsbso3clfe.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%205%20of%2012_zpswol8noqr.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%206%20of%2012_zpsawsbcvcl.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%2010%20of%2012_zpsatoy6hqe.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%208%20of%2012_zpsff4tuupp.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%209%20of%2012_zpsfwfiuzno.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%2011%20of%2012_zpsus51wytc.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-pattern-twb%207%20of%2012_zps4fv4wzbr.jpg)
I'm going to post this to the other forum too. ???
Hi Tom
For C+ very nicely done. looks good. Cleanest finshed jeans I ever saw. (besides yoke)
If you want C-
I do not like the placement of pockets. They make you look wider on the hips.
and I do not like how the fly (left side) is ???? stichted. Reaches to long into the leg.
In back they could be a bit longer at CB.
But this all is only a matter of personal taste.
lg
posaune
Hi posaune, thanks for the your thoughts, very much appreciated. Yeh I agree with you on the fly, I had done that a long time ago and had learnt a lot since then. I have changed it to a much better fly-piece, I didn't have any bits of denim big enough to make a new one; I forgot to mention it, probably trying to wipe it from my mind. :(
The pockets looked great from the side but absolutely in the wrong place, now you have mentioned it, I might take them off and re-sew them. I have a problem keeping the back of trousers up due to my bits of annoying flab, though yes a little on the CB would be better to lift it over the flab a bit. I am thinking of moving to suspenders for my future trousers, not jeans though. Yeh I am a little annoyed about not binding the yoke, I assume that's what you mean. :'(
I'm getting some more denim this week to make a new pair with the finished pattern, it is about £15 per metre and I only need 1.10mtrs.
Cheers, Tom. ;)
The general fit looks good Tom, I would be inclined to have a higher waistline as this really does help to keep them up and you should be able to wear a belt rather than braces. The back pockets look a bit too low and set a bit too wide apart, my rough rule with external back pockets is 2 inched from the centre seam and 3 to 3.5 inches down from the waistband and this is one a 5.5 inch square pocket with turned bottom edges.
I quite like them out of the way so I can sit down without sitting on my wallet. But I am going to baste on the pockets next time and have a bit more of a play, they are 1/2" below the yoke seam. I'll try the waistband a bit higher at the back so there is more of an angle. The reason I keep lowering it is because I once saw this as part of the flat seat alteration, lower and straighten CB. Maybe I should just straighten the CB point instead of lowering it too.
I have just ordered another piece of denim.
Here is the mod I have done for the yoke to give me a better CB, the dashed lines are the original yoke.
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-yoke-twb%201%20of%201_zpsdyzuuyo2.jpg)
Only straightening the seat angle is necessary, the actual length of the seat seam is only dependent on how high on the waist they will sit.
As for the jeans themselves, I don't think there is a pair of jeans out there so well finished on the insides. Great pattern on the patch pockets too.
Thanks Henry. Yeh, I realise I must throw that out of my mind and just straighten CB; yep all gone now. ;D
Where are you buying the Japanese denim from?
;)
MacCulloch & Wallis (www.macculloch-wallis.co.uk (http://www.macculloch-wallis.co.uk))
25-26 Poland Street
London
W1F 8QN
United Kingdom
https://www.macculloch-wallis.co.uk/p/20883/denim-products/mw/japanese-denim (https://www.macculloch-wallis.co.uk/p/20883/denim-products/mw/japanese-denim)
Mr. Bennett or
tombennett, you must be mad making all those hand-worked buttonholes in a pair of jeans! ;) They don't look bad though.
My opinion is largely a repeat of what others already have said. Perhaps this:
- The fly topstitching looks very old-fashioned, as posaune said. I would topstitch it again curving to the tack and remove the old stitching; that should be possible.
- The back should be higher, it seems to me that there is room for it to end up higher in the back waist. This will also optically increase the "mass" of seat. You are not bound to have a centre back seam that is a straight line, nor a waistband that is straight, nor a waistband that runs horizontally on the body, so there may be some gain to be had there regarding seat contour. I know that that is uncommon to have in jeans, but so is doing ironwork on them, after all.
- With a higher back it will be easier to raise the back pockets so that they no longer look in danger of dropping off and can contribute to the seat aspect. Just pin them on and see where they look best and are still functional.
- Jeans side pockets can have a tendency to be pulled open after sitting down and standing up several times. A way to counteract that is to extend the pocket material to the front and catch it in the seam that attaches the fly pieces to the fronts, maybe only one layer. It would mean, in your design, a reorganisation of where the different parts end up, see sketch.
(http://s32.postimg.org/ont1oyzmd/jeans_pocketextend_50.png)
Thanks for the diagram Lepus I've seen that on jeans I own before, I might try that on my next pair. Tom is fine by me. I like buttonholes on jeans so I may as well sew them, doesn't take long and it's good practice. :)
I'm going to undo my nice backstitch fly and redo it, before I wear them again. I have shortened the fly-run on the new pattern, notch seems to be low on old drafts. I do like that though, I'll do a shorter top-stitch. I wonder whether I forgot to hitch up the back before taking the shot? My medication makes my immediate thoughts are a bit cloudy, I'll have a look at that, they do seem to look lower at the hollow of the seat than my wool trousers. :-\
As for the back pockets, I couldn't really get them much higher due to the yoke seam however I have now re-designed that aspect too. They are parallel to the yoke seam I should have had them level with the floor instead, as in the draft, but, they will still be set low due to where one is directed to place the yoke seam.
I've just put them back on and realise I have lost a few pounds since I did my fitting a few weeks ago, they needed hoisting up though the CB is dipping slightly at the seam so will still raise that a little.
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-redub-twb%202%20of%203_zpsgpo70vry.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-redub-twb%201%20of%203_zps6u9ye1jv.jpg)
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-redub-twb%203%20of%203_zpsttqoqhc7.jpg)
Not quite sure why I did do Ironwork, probably because of my hips and calfs. :-\
No, no, ironworks you should do on jeans too. You stretch the inseams and the back crotch curve. It can be that you have to recut this area again because they grow if you have not incorporate the result of stretching in your pattern. And I do it with demoin because it grows when worne a lot. A friend of mine do the waistband 4 cm shorter then meausred because of that. There is a "science" you find in internet about placement and style of the back pockets. Search it. I found that the french firm draft gave a good example I recently wrote about.
lög
posaune
I kind of figured that as they are tailored then why not? I like the look, it's different.
I've just had a look at how pocket placement makes a big difference, I'll work on that area. I need them big enough for a wallet.
Denim looks really nice. Never seen anything like it. With mass-production the short fly is easier and they end up with less second-$. For the male autonomy it's really not practical. People are used of the cheap look (they can have it). So the thought, "old fashioned", doesn't apply from my perspective. Like the thread work on the hip pockets. But the pockets themselves are too squareist for my taste. Angles and/or curves makes them more exciting. The yoke seems to dip to far down in center back. It depends on how flat or round the seat is. Flat is less distance to cover and less angle into the small of the back. The purpose of a yoke there is to add shape. This is done by adjusting size and curving the lines however much is best. See where the prominent sag is at and draw the curve accordingly. A slight curve up. You can experiment with a down curve and see how that works. The silk twist button holes I made deteriorate, if they go into the wash. How I use, regular modern day sewing thread doubled, but not twisted. To make it look nice and neat the two threads are side by side, even in the knots. For the gimp, same thread doubled, side by side (so really no gimp at all). The front pockets dip down too low at the sideseams. The iron work is worth it. How you did the insides is really nice. Glad you posted this project.
Hey Greger, thanks for stopping by and commenting, we appreciate it. I have to agree with you I like a low fly notch, I do feel that this particular one maybe a bit long; actually it is the buttonhole-strip that is too big. I am going to strip down the fly-piece and re-site the back pockets. Yeah I am going to work on the little bits like back pockets, the yoke to get a better fit, I thought I would do the draft as-is then look at modifications.
The denim is lovely and soft, I have just spoken to them and they have run out of it. They are sending me samples of the new stock when it arrives. I agree the ironwork is important if it's at all possible. :)
That's an interesting and understandable reason for placing the pockets so. Certainly one of the best reasons for making one's own is to have them they way you want. I feel they do look a bit wide.
Tom,
Having had a good look at the side profile photos, a couple of things come to mind. As before I suggested that a higher waistline would improve keeping them up so you can wear a belt rather than braces, from the photo about 1 inch higher at the front and about 3/4 of an inch at the back. I have a similar problem in having just enough gut to annoy me and if the front is not high enough my slight gut pushes the front waistline down.
I agree with the comment that the front pockets are too low at the side seam and I suggest that raising the pocket edge on the side seam by about an inch would make the contents of the front pockets far less prone to push out at the top when you sit down. I understand the idea of why you have placed the back pockets far enough apart so you can sit without sitting on you wallet but you can go the other way and make them high enough so you don't sit on them.
If you raise the top position so that the top of the pocket is attached over the yoke below the waist band and make the top of the pockets parallel with the waistband you will get them high enough so you can sit without sitting on your wallet. With the two inside edges of the pockets that face the center seam, if you space them about 2 inches from the center seam you place the pocket over a major muscle rather than closer to the hip joint which should be a lot more comfortable.
Thanks Hutch, the wallet comment was a throw away really, more of an excuse for their awful positioning. I have taken them off and straightened them up, they now sit 1 1/2" in from the side seam and 2 1/2" down. Sadly at the moment they cross the yoke seam but they are more presentable when I wear them out and about. I have some new cloth and will be paying close attention to the pattern, now I have more of an understanding of how the pattern works. I have been sticking bits of oaktag to the pattern so it can be successfully modified, this pair was the experiment. I'll baste something together this week hopefully.
I would post an image but am having problems obtaining the link from photobucket, not sure why, nothing to do with this forum.
Tom,
Use the "Add image to post" option that has been added recently.
No, it's not the forum, that's easy, it's something to do with photobucket's js or something.
Okay, I give u and will use your photo service, god knows what is going on at PB!
Here are the back pockets:
(http://s32.postimg.org/sr9k7g9q9/jean_redub_pkts_twb_2_of_4_2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/sr9k7g9q9/)
Hi Tom,
That looks way better and you should be able to sit in them without crushing anything in the back pockets.
Unless you have lady's hand in your back pocket.
Chance would be a fine thing!
I'll send you one in the post (I'm not weird in any way :) )
Of course, he means a hand :)
I meant to post this a couple of weeks ago but caught up in other things. This is my pattern extension to my generic pocket bag piece, this is in response to lepus' suggestion to catch the pocket bag in the fly run. Having worn these trousers now a few times I can see why it is needed. I can also see that some kind of tape across the pocket to stop its habit to bulge. I have some more denim now so will cut a new pair soon, once I have finished some changes to the main pattern pieces.
(http://s33.postimg.org/abk2bk24b/pocekt_ext.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/abk2bk24b/)
I find that pressing those kinds of pockets; the top edge needs to be pressed on the curve of a ham.
Whenever you have bulk the top layer needs to be longer. The pocket yoke is bulk on jeans. And that curve around the hip at sideseam seems to add to it. 3/16 of an inch might be about right.
Both of these methods should get rid of the pocket bulging open.
Funnily enough I really liked the pockets where you placed them first time - they were kind of kooky and original and looked good side-on. Where you have them now - they look a bit square and small on the apple of your cheek. Maybe larger and more pointy at the bottom and placed further down? (But maybe that's because I'm so used to that in men's jeans). I'm thrown a bit by the pressed-in crease line. Somehow it's drawing my eye to the breaking underneath the seat. It would be interesting to see them without the iron work. Didn't another person on C&T use the Chaudry draft to make a pair of jeans that were a bit more fitted round the seat and the crotch? I can't find it on the archived versions. Posaune's right about having to accommodate the fact that denim will change over time with wear. The fabric that you've used here looks like it's had a bit more processing/washing compared to some very raw japanese denims that you find the guys making an art of breaking in. (I can't see it very clearly on my screen - is it a twill? Looks a bit cross-hatch). So it might not grow out so much but still should be factored in. The second lot of pictures - as well as a few lost pounds - could it also be that the fibres have loosened just because they've been worn a bit?
To get the behinds to fit better, you need a pattern change. I did a topic in C&T on the pattern mods required and I think I still have the photos on my computer. There are two areas that need to be changed, the thigh gap so that instead of a V shape under the behind you curve both lines and add some fabric on either side of the bottom of the back halves so that there is a bit more room for sitting. It also improves the shape a lot.
Found it !!!!
(http://s32.postimg.org/3xo7mx9hd/thighgap.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/3xo7mx9hd/)
I have seen this mod done on English designed slim fit trousers as well and it improves the shape under the inside of the behind. What you are trying to do is make the shape that an incorrectly fitted pair of trousers are dragged into once you have worn them long enough.
This is the other basic mod, you must add more fabric either side of the center back seam and not make the fit too tight at the hip line to avoid a basic defect.
(http://s32.postimg.org/tkwu5zo01/rearview.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/tkwu5zo01/)
The top image is the basic vertical profile of a person taken at the hip joint line. The second image shows how a pair of trousers need to fit when you have enough extra fabric on either side of the rear seam. The third image is a pair of trousers that are too tight at the hip line without the extra fabric either side of the rear seam. The defect in fit with the third image causes a flattening of the behind that loses the natural shape that many want with the behind of a pair of trousers.
Hi Guys, Yes I always remember your mod Hutch, my trousers thread is burnt in my mind. ;) Maybe I need to make the V slightly more curved on the undersides. Kate, I also preferred them as they were but I do see how their placement affects the size and shape of one's posterior, they were a demonstration pair really as I have never made jeans before. The Denim is very soft and I also washed it before striking it, possibly to soft! I started doing the ironwork because I was used to doing it, also due to my calfs and hips I thought it might be good to do, certainly makes them different. Thanks Gerger I'll look at the bulk around the pockets, I think the problem I am having is the fabric shaping itself about my wrists which is why I thought maybe adding a bit of stay tape might stop this; I'll take a photo of it when I next wear them.
I have some new Japanese denim but it much stiffer than the last lot, yes it is a twill type weave Kate. I am going to use this new cloth for a test garment, which is why I am looking for a decent overlocker, the edge binding I do on my raw edges doesn't look that great on normal reverse side of denim. Would I be better to modify my normal trousers draft or, draft again from Chaudhry? They look a bit strange at the front because, in my mind I am still quite corpulent but, in reality I am not particularly; well for my age and therefore added a stupid amount of ease to the top panels. I'll pay particular attention to the V on both parts to ope them up a bit, and not cut in so much on the rear parts or ease up front. Once I have the pattern locked down, and an overlocker I can then crack on with making a few pairs, with felled seams as with commercially produced garments. I want to get the jeans down so I can also use it for moleskin. I'm making a pair of trousers out of some nice flannel cloth at the moment before getting back to my jeans project.
8)
Thanks for the cheeky illustrations Hutch, I do need to add a bit there which I also think the pockets will then look better when placed further out. I'll be starting on it next week, hopefully.
Hi Tom,
Before my tailor friend down the road retired I got to see a lot of high end jeans that he had from customers to modify and the most common layout for the inner and outer leg seams was a double turned flat felled seam on the outside with double line face stitching (normal jeans appearance) and a 5 thread overlock on the inside seam. Now I don't see any reason to make the double turned flat felled seam unless you want that appearance, a single overlocked edge that is flat felled is both strong enough and looks cleaner. Because you cannot get at the inside seam with the same ease as the outside, depending on what you want, a normal open seam first then overlock the 2 unsecured edges will work OK and be at least as strong as the production 5 thread overlock.
Ah! C&T is back up and I've found what I was looking for yesterday - the version of the Chaudry jeans by Lance:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4075&hl=jeans&page=2
Different body and posture from yours - different fabric and different style of jeans aimed for. He's dropped the waist which has produced a narrower yoke, the pockets cover a larger area of the rear and their points go right down possibly to below the crotch level - helps reduce the size of the seat in appearance. I think he's taking in at the back crotch point - reducing the back crotch length and narrowing the leg a bit at the same time. I don't think you need to do that - but could you lower the back at the waist a bit and see how that looks and feels? Toile on a heavy weight calico perhaps before the Japanese denim? (With a twill like that, cut the pieces in the same direction as if it has a nap)
In Tom's case lowering the waist any more would be entirely the wrong thing to do, it's already low. Perhaps reducing the width of the yoke, but keeping the same overall length.
Yes I thought in the first set of Tom's photos that the waist was fine and didn't need adjusting. It was just the side view in the second set of pictures - made me think the back waist could come down a bit. At first I thought they must be completely different pair. Just shows what a difference stance, camera angle etc can all make.
Looking at the pictures Kate is referring to I can see what she means, there is quite a steep angle from back to front in the side view. This is making the backs to long fir the side-seam and tucking under my seat, I thought it didn't feel quite right but couldn't put my finger on it. I may not have explained myself to well however I know what I mean. :-[ It's not that the waistband is in the wrong position, though I would like it slightly lower at the CB it's the seat is swinging underneath, if you know what I mean. :-\
(http://i1065.photobucket.com/albums/u385/twbennett/Finished%20Garments/jean-redub-twb%201%20of%203_zps6u9ye1jv.jpg)
I think I will take a tad off, ⅜th should probably do it. I think this should pull up the seat seam, give a bit more shape. The denim I have at the moment isn't as nice as the stuff I used for these, nevertheless you're probably right Kate.
Ah, I must have missed this photo.
Oh good you guys see it as well? Today I'm trying to get my head round crookening and straightening when it comes to coats... so don't feel sure of anything right now...
Good luck with your coat pattern Kate. I realise why there is a little extra because I forgot to do my felled seam on the yoke, I cut the pieces months before cutting and changed my mind in the seam detail. I opted for flat seams instead of the traditional neglecting to snip of the extra seam allowance, I realised after suggesting that I need to take ⅜ of the back length. Doh! I'm going to do flat felled seams on future pairs.