Today I drafted and made up the "Close-Fitting Torso Sloper" from Myoungok and Injoo Kim's "Patternmaking for Menswear: Classic to Contemporary". The draft was simple and mostly easy to follow, though little use of the subject's personal measurements was called for. The calculations used proportions of the chest and height measure. A lot of attention was paid to making the sleeves fit the scyes, with four notches; and I have to say they fitted well even if they don't necessarily hang well.
The results shown are the straight draft for my chest measure (40, taken on the skin) and height (72) with only one adjustment. The proportionate scye depth was about 1-1/2 inches below the actual armpit. I checked the measure by means of a string tied around my body at this level, and my wife took the measure from the C7 vertebra to the string. Not wanting the scye to be overly tight, I raised it 3/4" and redrafted the sleeve for the new scye. The pattern and fitting shown include this adjustment.
Here is the pattern:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/pattern_zps81akd3dc.jpg)
And now the fitting. The shoulder slope and balance seem OK to me. The dropped right shoulder is evident in the photos, which surprised me since I didn't notice it looking in the mirror. I suppose many people instinctively straighten out when they can see themselves.
The body seems loose to me, but maybe that's to be expected in a straight cut garment with no darts.
If anyone has observations or advice, I'd be very grateful.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/front_zpsba3benl0.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_spread_zpsuuebghyv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/back_zpsooip5n1h.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_spread_zpsc1rr665p.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lside_zpsmsdnmpar.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rside_zps7uwal6jz.jpg)
Jim,
It may just be my eye but the pattern looks like it needs to be tapered from the underarms down to the waistline a bit more as it would remove some of the excess fabric at around the waistline level.
Have you added inlays so you can crook the fronts?
Quote from: hutch-- on April 03, 2016, 12:04:46 PM
Jim,
It may just be my eye but the pattern looks like it needs to be tapered from the underarms down to the waistline a bit more as it would remove some of the excess fabric at around the waistline level.
That may be the next step: The close-fitting sloper with darts.
Quote from: Greger on April 03, 2016, 12:52:20 PM
Have you added inlays so you can crook the fronts?
The book does not specify how much seam allowance is included in the sloper draft, so I assumed none. I added 1/4" to the scye and sleeve cap for accuracy in assembly, and 1/2" for the straight seams.
This is a sloper, not a finished pattern, so neither wearing ease nor inlays have been added at this point.
Well there are some things which are not right. And they are nearly the same things we had with the coat.
First the balance. The hem goes up in back as the back waist line does. And stands away at CB. Folds are emerging around the shoulderblades. The back needs more length over the shoulder blades (1 - 1.5 cm).
I would adice doing this first. Some things will settle.
Next is the shoulder (front). You see the folds from shoulder point to fist button and in back there is a little horizontal fold too. The back neck is very high. Could mean your shoulders are straighter - especial the front (front is too crooked). To prove this: unbutton the front and look what the CF is doing , falling straight down || or forming a V or an /\.
The folds in front go to the second last button indicating a pull from side seams to there.
But here we have the same effect as in the coat thread: In the front photo you have another posture as in the back view. So I do not know what exact I'm seeing.
In front pic (first pic) I see the right side hanging.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on April 03, 2016, 07:15:23 PM
First the balance. The hem goes up in back as the back waist line does. And stands away at CB. Folds are emerging around the shoulderblades. The back needs more length over the shoulder blades (1 - 1.5 cm).
I would adice doing this first. Some things will settle.
Just to be clear: You think I need more length in the back only, between the collar seam and chest line (bottom of scye)? Or have I misunderstood?
Thanks,
Jim
Jim, I would do it slowly. So maybe you need not to take out front.
I attach a pic with the normal procedure for a posture like yours. To confirm if you have this posture you have to check 2 measures: front waist CF to floor and back waist to floor. They must be equal - if you have a normal posture. If not - try to alter the sloper.
lg posaune
http://www.mediafire.com/view/1s15cckrucz04kc/posture.png
just to correct a point of view. the inlays are added mainly to have enough fabric for the fitting. so they would be most necessary in a sloper.
Look in the cutting tables of the book you posted. There you can see where the most important inlays are placed.
To understand Posaunes sketch of the back: this alteration creates room for the protruding/strong shoulderblades. It creates some vertical length over the shoulder blade (bigger circle) but keeps the back short at the armhole, thus keeping the armhole close to the body. The center back is just lengthend a bit, more then the armhole lesser then at the shoulder blades. this avoids a bubbling length of the center back between the shoulderblades.
The resulting vertical dart towards the shoulderblade must be sewn close. How this dart will be treated in a real garment depends on the garment and fabric choice.
QuoteBut here we have the same effect as in the coat thread: In the front photo you have another posture as in the back view. So I do not know what exact I'm seeing.
Before I make any changes, please take a look at this second set of photos to see if posture is more consistent. There is a lump in the floor (happens in old houses!) at the spot I've been standing, so it's possible I'm shifting my weight to compensate.
No changes have been made to the sloper:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/01_zpsta15odqb.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/02_zpsdepkmgf3.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/03_zpsoxqvnem1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/04_zpsgcqanppz.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/05_zpszh99vhug.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/06_zpss8wx1bjw.jpg)
What is it really? A close fitting shirt block?
A close fitting block of any sort needs shaping and this just seems like a shirt yes?
I ask only because a close fitted bodice block for a man is what I would call my own draft that I use for doublets and, well, anything that has to fit the body contours closely and this does not.
Quote from: TTailor on April 04, 2016, 05:38:00 AM
What is it really? A close fitting shirt block?
A close fitting block of any sort needs shaping and this just seems like a shirt yes?
I ask only because a close fitted bodice block for a man is what I would call my own draft that I use for doublets and, well, anything that has to fit the body contours closely and this does not.
I am using the authors' terminology. They call this draft the "close-fitting sloper". The next stage is "with darts" which adds shaping at the front, back, and side seams just as the name implies.
The "close-fitting sloper with darts" is very close to a fitted shirt pattern, but ease has to be added in certain areas.
My thought was to start fitting without darts, to check the shoulder slope, balance, and scye depth. If these will be affected by shaping below the chest line then it makes sense to add the darts before going any further. What is your advice?
Thanks,
Jim
Well.
Posaune and I see similar things I believe.
Can you send me (msg) a scan of the draft? I promise not to use it or disseminate it, it is just more helpful to understand what it is all about.
so... if this is a draft that will eventually lead to modifications to become a shirt, then, the neckline is off.
Too low in front and too wide in the back. figure out why- is the draft bad or is there a mistake in reading the draft?
Don't need to think about inlay crookening the neck point as this is a shirt, but definitely an inlay is needed in a waistcoat or jacket!
How much ease is allowed beyond the basic chest measure?
As for overall distribution of circumference, I think there is just a bit too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front for you.
You see, I would make major adjustments at the drafting stage because there are quite a few changes to be made that are not so easy to correct in one fitting.
So, keep in mind that these things I am saying are isolated approaches to individual fitting areas.
From the back photos , you can see (especially on your left) how the fabric is slightly taut over the upper blade. Need length to go over that part of the body. So unpick the top of the sleeve. and unpick 3/4 (or most of the shoulder seam length). Leave the shoulder seam allowances pressed as they are. You should baste in a piece of muslin under the front shoulder to act as an inlay.
Get help for this next part.
Put the shirt back on and get your helper to pin the shoulder seam closed where it wants to naturally lay.
You will likely need to pin a dart in the back shoulder first, then pin the back shoulder onto the inlay you basted in place.
Do the left and then the right, which will be different as your right side is dropped. Don't try to fix the drop yet.
In fitting, Just don't force the fabric to do anything that causes another problem. Thats the golden rule!
This fitting of the shoulder should also help the tension evident from shoulder to CF line in the front photos.
Do this and see what results you get.
QuoteHow much ease is allowed beyond the basic chest measure?
The width from CF to CB is half the chest circumference (taken on the skin) plus 2". So that's 4" ease over the full chest.
Quotethe neckline is off.
Too low in front and too wide in the back. figure out why- is the draft bad or is there a mistake in reading the draft?
Back neck width is 1/12th chest + 1/4". No seam was added to the neck hole, so what you are seeing is the location of a finished seam. It's almost touching the neck, so should it really be smaller?
QuoteAs for overall distribution of circumference, I think there is just a bit too much fabric in the back and not enough in the front for you.
These are based on proportions of the chest. On the back, scye to CB is 1/6 chest + 1-1/2" On the front, scye to CF is 1/6 chest + 1". These were within about 1/8" of my wife's measures on my body, but she may not have measured accurately.
How to determine how much to add or remove? If both the back and back neck are too wide, should I try taking in the back seam?
QuoteFrom the back photos , you can see (especially on your left) how the fabric is slightly taut over the upper blade. Need length to go over that part of the body. So unpick the top of the sleeve. and unpick 3/4 (or most of the shoulder seam length). Leave the shoulder seam allowances pressed as they are. You should baste in a piece of muslin under the front shoulder to act as an inlay.
Get help for this next part.
Put the shirt back on and get your helper to pin the shoulder seam closed where it wants to naturally lay.
You will likely need to pin a dart in the back shoulder first, then pin the back shoulder onto the inlay you basted in place.
Do the left and then the right, which will be different as your right side is dropped. Don't try to fix the drop yet.
Is this essentially the same as the alteration posaune suggested?
If so, I think I would be more comfortable guesstimating the extra length needed, and adding a separate back piece, which will be needed anyway. My wife is not a skilled fitter, and I would rather have a controlled, repeatable change than a series of random experiments.
Ok, i assumed that you added seam allowance beyond the pattern line at the neck. Its important to do so, so the actual sewing line can be marked, and the sewing line is stable.
No do not take in the back to fix the neck. What is the calculation for the front neck depth?
What is your measured neck size? Chest proportional drafting is a good starting point but doesn't always work. That is why " working scale" 1/3 chest plus 6" is often used for some points because using chest scale makes some measurements too large proportionately. Like the neck, and scye depth, but I digress.
Yes the change is the same as what posaune mentioned for the shoulder.
Fitting is not a random experiment, guessing at how much to change is a random experiment.
I understand that you feel your wife is not a skilled fitter, but she is there and we are not.
I am off to work so I don,t have time atm to get into detail. Will check back later.
So
QuoteWhat is the calculation for the front neck depth?
Same as back neck width, plus 1/4". Which works out to 1/12 chest plus 1/2".
My measured neck circumference is 15-1/2".
Jim, if you have 15,5 " neck that is in metric a 39.5 cm neck and this goes with a bust something about 96. So you will get a 8.3 cm back neck. With the formula: neck/5 -0.5 or neck/6 (which I use in my shirt drafts) you'll get about 7.4 cm or 6.6 cm. (I think it is not good to use bust for neck hole calculations)
When you use a smaller neck size the shoulder point will move to the center but the back width and front width will stay the same. This is why you can't just sew the back smaller.
And if it is smaller it will not be so deep in front.
lg
posaune
With the consensus that more room was needed over the shoulder blades I applied Posaune's suggested alteration to the back. No change has been made to the front. Seam allowance has been added to the collar seam of the new back; the seam location is the line of black stitching.
Here is the new back pattern:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/pattern_zpskwmkkoel.jpg)
And here are the images. I will say this feels more comfortable:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpspgmamngl.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpso430hart.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpscaanuoza.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsmyiidly4.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpskjtw0jht.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpswkql2t4v.jpg)
Quote from: posaune on April 04, 2016, 11:12:11 PM
Jim, if you have 15,5 " neck that is in metric a 39.5 cm neck and this goes with a bust something about 96. So you will get a 8.3 cm back neck. With the formula: neck/5 -0.5 or neck/6 (which I use in my shirt drafts) you'll get about 7.4 cm or 6.6 cm. (I think it is not good to use bust for neck hole calculations)
When you use a smaller neck size the shoulder point will move to the center but the back width and front width will stay the same. This is why you can't just sew the back smaller.
And if it is smaller it will not be so deep in front.
lg
posaune
Thanks posaune.
Does your calculation include seam allowance? If so, how much?
Given that the neckhole needs to be smaller, I'm having trouble understanding where to take out the difference without spoiling something else.
If I take out of the back seam, that reduces the chest circumference.
If I slide the neck seam and shoulder seam horizontally toward the CB line, that reduces the shoulder width.
So, do I reduce the back neck size and increase the shoulder seam length by the same amount, leaving the total length the same?
Or does this involve taking out a wedge somewhere?
You can´t take out the amount, you have to add fabric to make the neckhole smaller. Add a bit of fabric like sewing allowance.
The back looks much better now.
My observation is, that your right hip is shifted to the right. it pulls the hole back rightwards. Drawing a strictly vertical line through the CB neckpoint on the pic shows, the back seam drifts to the right at least 1,5". Adding some width in the right sideseam (back and front) would allow the back seam falling vertical. Open the sideseam from the hem up to about a few inches under the armhole. you will see how much the seamlines gape at the hip.
Quote from: peterle on April 05, 2016, 02:17:13 AM
You can´t take out the amount, you have to add fabric to make the neckhole smaller. Add a bit of fabric like sewing allowance.
So the neckhole is in the right place, it just needs to be smaller in circumference so a collar will fit. Is that right?
Quote
The back looks much better now.
Do you think it's still a little too wide? There are small vertical folds at the sleeve seam. Maybe I should reduce the width at the middle of the back scye?
Quote
My observation is, that your right hip is shifted to the right. it pulls the hole back rightwards. Drawing a strictly vertical line through the CB neckpoint on the pic shows, the back seam drifts to the right at least 1,5". Adding some width in the right sideseam (back and front) would allow the back seam falling vertical. Open the sideseam from the hem up to about a few inches under the armhole. you will see how much the seamlines gape at the hip.
You are probably right, but for now I would like to keep the alterations symmetrical. I would like to get the best fit possible and then correct for the dropped shoulder and crooked spine.
If I take out of the back seam, that reduces the chest circumference.
Yes
If I slide the neck seam and shoulder seam horizontally toward the CB line, that reduces the shoulder width.
What measure is shoulder width? It is not used to draft the back. So you do the smaller neck hole draft the shoulder length and add what is added in the draft: 1-1.5 cm to get the point D' (if I remember right)
So, do I reduce the back neck size and increase the shoulder seam length by the same amount, leaving the total length the same?
No. Your shoulder will be too long if you used shoulder length for drafting
Or does this involve taking out a wedge somewhere?
No. Be happy! This time no wedge
nighty
posaune
Ah I'm much behind, there are new pics.
Look at side view and look at waist line. See it rises in front and you see it clearly in the front pic. Your next alterations is the balance.
After this you will add fabric in front and take away in back. And then you have to do what Peterle wrote. You are nearly there.
Neckhole: Yes, I think this is right. I think it was this, what posaune had in mind.
The back: I also think the back is a bit wide for a "close fitting sloper". What concernes me most is the disparety in ease between front and back. The back is quite wide, the front is very tight at the chestline. Maybe the whole armhole could be shifted a bit backwards 0,5 - 0,75". (shift the armhole base towards the back and connect to the existing shoulder ends).
Concerning the drop shoulder. I´m not 100%sure about it. In the new back pic your shoulders are equally in height. Not so in the front pic. Is it possible your spine isn´t bent like a shallow C but like a shallow S? In other words both of your shoulders are shifted to the left? When I draw a vertical line through the shoulder seam ends on your pics (perpendicular to the cabinets edge on the first back pic), the left line doesn´t touch the hip at all , the right line cuts the hip. This would mean the sacrum and the 7th vertebra don´t line up vertically. This "off center" situation has to be dealt with in the pattern.
Quote
What measure is shoulder width? It is not used to draft the back. So you do the smaller neck hole draft the shoulder length and add what is added in the draft: 1-1.5 cm to get the point D' (if I remember right)
Here's what I'm getting at: The back draft fixes the narrowest part of scye (between the shoulder and chest lines) at distance E-I. Transferred to the top line this is equal to A-J. This distance (half of back interscye width) is what I meant by "shoulder width".
Back neck width is A-A'. From A' you square up to B' for end of back neck seam. From J you square down to C' and out to D' for shoulder tip. So the shoulder seam length is B'-D'.
If I reduce the back neck width B' moves toward the CB line (and down). So if the shoulder width remains the same, the shoulder seam length B'-D' will increase. Or if I kept B'-D' the same, the shoulder width would be narrower.
If I follow peterle's advice the back shoulder will be narrower anyway:
Quote
The back is quite wide, the front is very tight at the chestline. Maybe the whole armhole could be shifted a bit backwards 0,5 - 0,75". (shift the armhole base towards the back and connect to the existing shoulder ends).
So back interscye (E-I) will be reduced, and front interscye (G-K) will be increased.
It remains to decide how much to reduce the back neck width. Posaune's calculations have it 0.9 - 1.7 cm (3/8" - 5/8") too wide. Should I measure how far the end of the seam lies from my neck, and make it touch?
QuoteLook at side view and look at waist line. See it rises in front and you see it clearly in the front pic. Your next alterations is the balance.
After this you will add fabric in front and take away in back.
Yes, I see what you're saying. But how much to add and where?
Should I remove the sleeves, then pass the back down on the front until the lines are horizontal?
Quote from: peterle on April 05, 2016, 06:31:22 AM
Concerning the drop shoulder. I´m not 100%sure about it. In the new back pic your shoulders are equally in height. Not so in the front pic. Is it possible your spine isn´t bent like a shallow C but like a shallow S? In other words both of your shoulders are shifted to the left? When I draw a vertical line through the shoulder seam ends on your pics (perpendicular to the cabinets edge on the first back pic), the left line doesn´t touch the hip at all , the right line cuts the hip. This would mean the sacrum and the 7th vertebra don´t line up vertically. This "off center" situation has to be dealt with in the pattern.
I don't know. I've never been examined by a chiropractor. My wife and I have an exercise session scheduled tomorrow morning, so maybe I can ask our trainer if he thinks my spine is curved.
With such a complex bodice adjustment I think you should remove the sleeves. It will make things much simpler.
I am also very curious how to adjust for such a spine shape. I am sure peterle is correct. I have noticed the same thing in the last set of photos. Its coming out quite clear to me now.
G
So, here you are, the change you made in the back makes an improvement.
Don't get ahead of yourself by doing too many things at once.
Redraft the neck using an alternative formula. 1/6 chest is really more appropriate for jackets. So you could try 1/5 of you neck measurement instead.
Yes the across back calculation of 1/12 chest plus 1 1/2" controls the shoulder seam length.
But, The next thing to do is figure out how much width you should have in the back.
So do you have an across back measurement of your body? Compare that number to what the draft gives you using their formula. Generally you will want half your measured cross back plus some ease. Since this is a close fitting shirt block, then half cross back plus maybe one inch? No more.
If you redraw the back of the draft narrower and keep the total circumference at the chest you are shifting the distribution of fabric by shifting the armhole laterally, giving more fabric at the front of the body where you need it.
So to recap, redraft using a better neck calculation, and a narrower back.
The next stage as Posaune says is balance. The front needs some more length and a little more width at the waist because the front of your waist sits forward of your chest by a small amount.
So on paper, i would slash horizontally across the pattern at the chest line and open up a wedge say 5/8 " deep at the cf.
Using the CF line from the neck to chest, redraw your CF line straight, which will add width from the chest all the way to the hem. I think Posaune had a diagram earlier showing this. This is your new CF line, and set it on the straight grain.
Thats it for now...
Didn't Jim say the floor is uneven?
There is something called the Blade measure. Which is rather handy. From center back to front of armhole.
Quote from: Greger on April 05, 2016, 09:16:35 AM
Didn't Jim say the floor is uneven?
Not where he's standing now - which is why the change was made.
Quote from: jruley on April 05, 2016, 07:45:50 AM
QuoteLook at side view and look at waist line. See it rises in front and you see it clearly in the front pic. Your next alterations is the balance.
After this you will add fabric in front and take away in back.
Yes, I see what you're saying. But how much to add and where?
Should I remove the sleeves, then pass the back down on the front until the lines are horizontal?
Quote
Don't get ahead of yourself by doing too many things at once.
Don't worry. After the jacket experience, I have resolved not to make any changes I don't fully understand.
Quote
Redraft the neck using an alternative formula. 1/6 chest is really more appropriate for jackets. So you could try 1/5 of you neck measurement instead.
So, how to judge what's really right? Should the ends of the seam just touch my neck? Should I improvise some kind of caliper and find my actual neck width?
Quote
So do you have an across back measurement of your body? Compare that number to what the draft gives you using their formula. Generally you will want half your measured cross back plus some ease. Since this is a close fitting shirt block, then half cross back plus maybe one inch? No more.
My wife measured my back interscye distance as 16" - half is 8". The distance in the draft is 1/6 chest + 1-1/2". With my 40" chest this works out to 8.17, or a little more than 8-1/8". Fitting shows this is already too wide, so I don't think I want to add ease.
For what it's worth, and to get all the good out of the old mockup before it is redrafted, I decided to try adjusting the balance by passing the front up on the back at the side seams.
My wife measured the vertical distance to the floor at the waist seam CF and CB. The difference was about 3/4", so I moved the front up by that amount. When looking at the pictures keep in mind that I didn't re-mark the waist lines, so the front is now 3/4" higher than the back.
Here are the results. The scye fronts are bulging, but I don't know if that is from too much material or because the shape is now wrong since the bottom of front scye has been raised.
This is pinned in place, so if anyone wants to see a different adjustment just let me know.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsgodreykp.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpszwf9pqva.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpscderzjvi.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpskfatchut.jpg)
QuoteMy wife measured my back interscye distance as 16" - half is 8". The distance in the draft is 1/6 chest + 1-1/2". With my 40" chest this works out to 8.17, or a little more than 8-1/8". Fitting shows this is already too wide, so I don't think I want to add ease.
Well what I mean is that there is always ease in a shirt back, it is never just your body measurement.
So your base body measurement plus ease. Usually the amount of ease depends on how close fitting the shirt is overall. This draft has 2" ease on the half, so think about where they are distributing the ease.
Just to confirm where that measurement is taken, it is mid upper back, from where the arm joins the torso to the other side in the same place.
Since by the draft calculations you end up with a back width that is a bit too wide at 8 1/8" it goes to reason that your body measurement cross back of 16" or 8" on the half is incorrect.
Or, the chest measurement itself is incorrect(too small) but lets assume the chest measurement is right.
How to judge if the neckline is correct? Well, that is hard to describe. Once you sew a collar on, it becomes more obvious. Lets say that yes, the finished seam line should touch your neck at the sides and sit higher in the front, than where it is now. Think about the position of a dress shirt collar, how and where it sits on your neck.
I think it will improve things by using a different formula for the neck.
Re: adjusting the balance photos, no that didn't improve things. Go back to what you had.
Redraft, incorporate the new neck calculations, the shoulder dart/lengthening over the blade that improved the back, then do the slash across the front, add the wedge, and redraw the CF as described.
OK, just to be clear about the next steps:
- Everyone agrees to keep the shoulder dart/blade length adjustment.
- Everyone agrees a smaller neck hole is needed.
- Peterle thinks I should shift the armhole backward to increase the width in front and reduce it in back. Terri seems to agree with the narrower back but hasn't mentioned the front.
Most troubling to me:
- Terri believes I should add a wedge to the front and add length below the chest line. Posaune said (post #22) I need a balance adjustment, adding material in front and taking away in the back. When I tried to test this (last set of pictures), Terri saw no improvement. However, posaune didn't give specific instructions, so it's possible what I did wasn't what was intended.
I would like to make sure posaune and Terri are in agreement before I do the redraft.
Thanks,
Jim
Believe, without going back to look, Posaune said you have short front balance. Now, it is shorter.
Around the chest you are short on width on the front and extra wide on back. On the c&t site or Canadian Jeff site the same draft showing how to change a pattern for drape which would give you a little more room in the chest. Believe Peterle was describing this method.
Terri's front cut is for the belly that sits out further than the chest.
Since you have a back seam, and the neck hole is to wide, this seam can be used to narrow the back width and neck hole. After you do that, finding the best widths, you go back to the drawing board and redraw according to the change that fits.
The backs are probably reusable with the changes. But you will need new fronts.
What do you have, an engineering degree? They taught you how to think about engineering metals, wood, plastics, concrete and other stuff. But they didn't teach you about engineering clothes. Working with cloth is very different than what your engineering lessons taught. Until you know a lot more about working with cloth and fittings you need to throw out your engineering lessons here. Those lessons are messing you up. They laid out principles for a different type of engineering. And they are going to trip/mess you up, until you throw them out. Other engineers came to realize this is a different ball game that requires a different way of thinking. That is when they started to improve.
Jim,
do what Terri says. She has so much more experience as I.
It is no witch craft. Take a ruler draft a straight line from waist line point to point at side seams on your pic and see how much the waistline goes up in CF. Estimate the distance. (I let the customer take a sheet of paper on his hand, which measurements I knew so it is realtivily easy.)
Clipp your sloper and spread a wedge . sew some fabric in at lower side of the wegde. And begin to pin the upper side with 1.5 cm Distance to let it down. Do a pic and controll again the waist line (Could be better (darker marekd). As you see clearly in the last pic the waist at front goes more up than in the pics before. (You should do the 3/4 " to let the front go down not go up)
Assume: You have a bust circ measurement 106 cm. Now take the half: 53 cm, this will be used for the draft. In this half included is the bust half the (whole) armhole width and the back half. Let's assume it is 21 + 12 + 20 (just to say anything number not your measurement)
So if the back is to wide (20) and you take 18 instead you have taken away 2 cm from the back . But your circ is 53 as before it is a body measurement and has not changed. You add the 2 cm into front (or if you have thick arms - in the armhole + front). And voila you have 53 again. (23 +12+18)
And you have moved the armhole more into back.
have to run
posaune
Sorry greger, i know that one can take in the back as you describe but in this situation we have been avoiding that so that modifying the drafting itself can be understood.
Don't do that Jim.
Quote from: jruley on April 05, 2016, 01:11:39 PM
OK, just to be clear about the next steps:
- Everyone agrees to keep the shoulder dart/blade length adjustment.
yes
QuoteEveryone agrees a smaller neck hole is needed.
Yes
QuotePeterle thinks I should shift the armhole backward to increase the width in front and reduce it in back. Terri seems to agree with the narrower back but hasn't mentioned the front.
Yes I assumed that was understood, and that is what will happen if you reduce the back width, keep the space for the armhole the same, then the fronts width gains what you took from the back, as Posaune describes.
QuoteMost troubling to me:
- Terri believes I should add a wedge to the front and add length below the chest line. Posaune said (post #22) I need a balance adjustment, adding material in front and taking away in the back. When I tried to test this (last set of pictures), Terri saw no improvement. However, posaune didn't give specific instructions, so it's possible what I did wasn't what was intended.
I would like to make sure posaune and Terri are in agreement before I do the redraft.
I think that sometimes people read things about fitting such as passing up the back or front, but the full implications of doing that are not understood, and in this case, it is not intended.
You need to add a wedge. You can see the effects in the mock up you have right now by doing as posaune says. Cut acoss from cf to armhole. Stitch in a piece of fabric behind, open a wedge and stitch the other side of the wedge to it. see what happens. This is not the complete alteration, as on paper you need to correct the front line too.
I agree with Posaune, so go ahead.
To make the difference clear:
By passing up the front in the side seam you lengthend the fronts equally across the hole chest.
But your body just needs more length over the middle of the fronts but no additional length at the armholes. (This is why passing up didn´t succeed).
Inserting a wedge instead of a strip accomplishes the task to lengthen the front parts at the center and keeping them short at the armhole.
Quote
What do you have, an engineering degree? They taught you how to think about engineering metals, wood, plastics, concrete and other stuff. But they didn't teach you about engineering clothes. Working with cloth is very different than what your engineering lessons taught. Until you know a lot more about working with cloth and fittings you need to throw out your engineering lessons here. Those lessons are messing you up. They laid out principles for a different type of engineering. And they are going to trip/mess you up, until you throw them out. Other engineers came to realize this is a different ball game that requires a different way of thinking. That is when they started to improve.
I probably shouldn't take the bait, but -- please remind me where I mentioned engineering anywhere in this thread?
Not only an engineering degree, but I also worked as a technical draftsman during my undergraduate college days. One of the things I studied in high school drafting class was sheet metal development, turning complex shapes into flat patterns for things like air ducts. This was good preparation for this kind of work and I'd be asking a lot more questions without it.
The main relevance of my engineering training here is thinking logically and breaking complex problems down into a series of small steps. I have no intention of changing that.
Those who haven't worked in my field have no idea of the role played by art, imagination, intuition, and experience. They don't even know
how much they don't know. We even have a term for that - it's an "unknown unknown".
Now please: Let's worry about fixing the sloper, and do our navel-gazing somewhere else!
Thanks everyone for reviewing the directions, which are clear to me now.
That is a very cool description peterle, I like it very much.
Jruley, have a look at http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=61.0
That will give an idea of other ways of finding balance in a shirt. I expect there even more ways than those.
G
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 05, 2016, 11:08:13 PM
Jruley, have a look at http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=61.0
That will give an idea of other ways of finding balance in a shirt. I expect there even more ways than those.
G
Thanks for sharing that thread. I have made balance corrections to a couple of shirts in the past. These involved adding length all the way across the back, or passing the whole back up to get the shirt resting comfortably around the neck. So I assumed this is what posaune meant by "balance"; but as you say there are many ways to achieve it. Evidently they are not all correct, you need to pick the best one for your particular case.
I think this diagram is closest to what Terri is asking me to do (except the wedge goes at the chest line, at bottom of scye):
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii605/Schneiderfrei/Balancing%20a%20Shirt%206_zpsslkceant.jpg)
Which brings up something she didn't address. There is going to be a lot more width on the front hemline. The diagram shows adjusting the side seam to account for this, but it's not clear how much.
I expect the smart thing for now is to treat this as extra "inlay" and find the right amount to reduce it in the fitting.
Quote from: peterle on April 05, 2016, 06:31:22 AM
Concerning the drop shoulder. I´m not 100%sure about it. In the new back pic your shoulders are equally in height. Not so in the front pic. Is it possible your spine isn´t bent like a shallow C but like a shallow S? In other words both of your shoulders are shifted to the left? When I draw a vertical line through the shoulder seam ends on your pics (perpendicular to the cabinets edge on the first back pic), the left line doesn´t touch the hip at all , the right line cuts the hip. This would mean the sacrum and the 7th vertebra don´t line up vertically. This "off center" situation has to be dealt with in the pattern.
My trainer, who is a licensed physical therapist, traced my spine curve this morning. He confirms I have a symptoms of a mild case of scoliosis, i.e. the spine is bent like the letter C. He thinks this is probably why I look like I'm dropping the right shoulder.
He also recommended I get an X-ray to determine the exact magnitude and see if physical therapy was in order :). But I don't think we should wait for that before fixing the pattern.
Some terminology:
I think you mean there is a lot more WIDTH at the hem? Everything measured horizontally is called width, everything measured vertical is called length.
This width is needed at the waisline to accomodate the belly that protrudes the chest in profil. Most probably it will create a wavy hemline, but this will be dealt with later. At the moment we are looking for a straight center front.
Balance is a terminus technicus that means the length/ distance between the neck hole and the chestline. There is a front balance and a back balance. A garment is"balanced" when the chestline runs horizontally all around the body because the back balance and the front balance have the right length for the individual body.
Quote from: peterle on April 06, 2016, 01:52:54 AM
Some terminology:
I think you mean there is a lot more WIDTH at the hem? Everything measured horizontally is called width, everything measured vertical is called length.
This width is needed at the waisline to accomodate the belly that protrudes the chest in profil. Most probably it will create a wavy hemline, but this will be dealt with later. At the moment we are looking for a straight center front.
Yes, exactly. The hemline has gotten longer (as you would measure with a tape); so we call it wider because it's horizontal. I'll try to remember that in future.
Question: So what do we call an increase in a diagonal length?
QuoteBalance is a terminus technicus that means the length/ distance between the neck hole and the chestline. There is a front balance and a back balance. A garment is"balanced" when the chestline runs horizontally all around the body because the back balance and the front balance have the right length for the individual body.
So, by this definition balance is only measured on the CF and CB lines. And you can change balance either with wedge adjustments or by moving the whole back up or down at the side seams. Obviously these will have different effects and you need to consider where the extra length is needed. Have I got it right?
Quote from: jruley on April 06, 2016, 03:03:01 AM
Quote from: peterle on April 06, 2016, 01:52:54 AM
Question: So what do we call an increase in a diagonal length?
So, by this definition balance is only measured on the CF and CB lines. And you can change balance either with wedge adjustments or by moving the whole back up or down at the side seams. Obviously these will have different effects and you need to consider where the extra length is needed. Have I got it right?
Well not exactly. Balance is measured vertically from the neckpoint( inner end of the shoulder seam) to the chestline, best over the peek of the shoulderblades/chest muscle). This is the minimum length the back balance must have. This measurement is not easy to take and not easy to apply to the pattern piece. That´s why it isn´t used that much.
Yes, you have to consider where extra length is needed. (But always think how you would manipulate the paper pattern. Then you can consider how to transfer it to a yet cut fabric piece. Sliding the back up is just an emergency technique in a yet cut fabric piece that simulates a strip inserted across to lengthen the back balance).
Changes were made as discussed. Here is the new body pattern:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/patt_zpsvwqoirdb.jpg)
And here is the result:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsrneqb0ew.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsw11yr97i.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpskvir88jv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpshhhsvuec.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpssdfyq0ln.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpseplz6q2e.jpg)
I may be jumping the gun, but I have a feeling the next correction is to crooken the side and back seams, as in this draft (from the C&T forum):
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/corpulent_shirt_zpsdx0bjhet.jpg)
The folds starting at the belly dissappeared. That´s good.
I see yet an imbalanced garment: the chestline is straight (good, no more wedges needed) but it is slanted to the back. Seems to be about 1"(2,5cm).
To correct this, you have to lengthen the front balance and/or shorten the back balance. I would try it with shortening the back balance for 1cm and lengthening the front balance for 1,5cm. both evenly across the pieces.
Did you decrease the back width in the new pattern? It seems the back is as wide as before.
The neckhole is a bit tight now. Maybe that´s just the SA´s.
Today: defenitely a dropped shoulder...
Quote from: peterle on April 06, 2016, 08:49:56 PM
The folds starting at the belly dissappeared. That´s good.
I see yet an imbalanced garment: the chestline is straight (good, no more wedges needed) but it is slanted to the back. Seems to be about 1"(2,5cm).
To correct this, you have to lengthen the front balance and/or shorten the back balance. I would try it with shortening the back balance for 1cm and lengthening the front balance for 1,5cm. both evenly across the pieces.
So, I could test this by removing the sleeves, and passing the front up on the side seams by 1". Correct?
Quote
Did you decrease the back width in the new pattern? It seems the back is as wide as before.
Yes. I moved the armhole back 1/4". So the back is 1/2" narrower (on full width) and the chest 1/2" wider. I didn't want to go too far, but maybe I didn't go far enough...
Terri sent me a suggestion for balance measurement:
QuoteIn order to analyse any figure it is important to have good measurements, including a balance measurement. I use a basic nape to cf waist. A twill tape or one inch wide elastic is in place at the waist level-navel height for this.
When drafting, i measure the back neck then apply that at one inch below the front waist construction line and measure up to the front neck point. Change the position of the neck point based on the measurement. That could be simply raising the neck point and shoulder point above the line, or in your case that plus opening the wedge, so a lot depends on the figure you are drafting for.
I applied this to the latest draft, and it looks like the front neck point is about an inch too low. Which seems to agree with peterle's observation.
EDIT: Actually I misinterpreted the instructions, and was comparing the back length to the front length. I think I understand now what Terri is getting at, so will have to try it again.
It is possible to measure the balance prior to drafting and incorporating prior to making the toile.
(no content)
Passing up the front will just give an impression because the back balance would stay the same. I think the back balance could be a tad shorter because now the back hem swings forward a bit instead of hanging vertical in the profil pic.
Please mark the new chest and waist line.
Did you construct your new neckpoint with Terrys method? Or did you just check the paper pattern neckpoint with Terry´s method and it seems to be too low?
I wonder why Terry applies the balance measurement shortend by 1"? Has it something to do with the construction of the waistline?
By the way: Your posture with the shifted hip will most probably give you two different balance measurements depending on wich side of the neck you pass the measuring tape. Maybe you should measure it by beginning at cf elastic, pass the tape around the neck and end at the starting point. The half is the seeked measurement.
The horizontal construction waistline of a draft will never look level on a person. A visually level line on the body is actually lower on the front.
Quote from: peterle on April 07, 2016, 02:23:21 AM
Passing up the front will just give an impression because the back balance would stay the same. I think the back balance could be a tad shorter because now the back hem swings forward a bit instead of hanging vertical in the profil pic.
OK, I will make the changes properly (sewing out/inserting strips) so it's not just an "impression".
QuotePlease mark the new chest and waist line.
If I use strips, it will not change.
QuoteDid you construct your new neckpoint with Terrys method? Or did you just check the paper pattern neckpoint with Terry´s method and it seems to be too low?
What I did was measure the adjusted length of the back shoulder seam, once the back width and neckhole changes were made. I transferred this length to the seam line of the front shoulder, and added the seam allowance for the collar. I then followed the existing curve. In effect this added 1/2" seam allowance all around the existing front curve.
As far as the balance measure goes, what I actually did was apply the CB length from back neck to waist line to the CF line, starting 1" below the drafted waist and going up to front of neck (which is not the neck point). I completely misinterpreted Terri's instructions so this was no value.
Quote from: TTailor on April 07, 2016, 02:50:02 AM
The horizontal construction waistline of a draft will never look level on a person. A visually level line on the body is actually lower on the front.
Thanks for the explanation. So the twill tape/elastic sits a bit lower than the drafted waistline.
Quote from: TTailor on April 07, 2016, 02:50:02 AM
The horizontal construction waistline of a draft will never look level on a person. A visually level line on the body is actually lower on the front.
This got me thinking. The side seam on the sloper is not vertical. Part of that is balance, yes. But does part of that come from my posture?
So, once again - do I need to crooken the side and back seams as shown in the corpulent draft?
Put another way: What is the reason for cutting the side seams crooked in the corpulent draft?
I attempted to take Terri's balance measure and apply it to the new draft as a check.
First, my wife arranged a piece of elastic around my waist. This was placed just under the waist line marked on the toile, and adjusted until it was as horizontal as possible:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps66goi5p1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpscbeblxmv.jpg)
Next, my wife measured from the CB at neck seam down to the top of the elastic strip at CF. I am holding the tape in the approximate position (no, I didn't measure myself, and this photo was taken after the measures had been recorded). The measure was 23 inches (to the nearest 1/8") on both sides.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bal_zpsofj7k3pw.jpg)
Now I applied the measure to the draft. First, the back neck at the seam measures 2-3/4":
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bn_zps2gggdu4t.jpg)
Here is the tape in position on the front, with the 2-3/4" measure placed 1" below waist line on CF:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb_zpsp2uo3jpl.jpg)
And here is a closeup of the shoulder, showing the length to neck point (1/2" inside the seams) as about 23-1/4".
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb2_zpsbgrrkbre.jpg)
Provided the setup was correct and the measures accurate (big "IFs"), insufficient front length should not be the problem.
So, did I do it wrong? Or are these small differences just very hard to measure?
Here we are with peterle's suggested changes. 3/8" sewn out of the back above the chest line, and 5/8" added to the front. If it looks like more, it's because I hemmed the cut edges 1/4" in case I have to move them again.
I think the balance is much better now:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsu4mkeqq9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpswglsg22z.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsbahe1a6x.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsay0l6fzb.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps1dp475if.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsmrh0cyl8.jpg)
Jim,
It woud probably help if you ironed the test piece as it will show how it drops a lot clearer.
yep better. Now snip little snips around the neckhole . It is a bit to tight. The neck will take what it needs. and you will see that and transfer it to your draft. The back needs a little wedge in in CB 0.8 cm, I think. It stands away and bust line goes a bit up. Then you have to bring up the right side. Remove the sleeve and start with taking away1 cm at shoulderseam taper to nothing at neck. open the side seam from waist to hip at right side. Controll your self with a pic from back side and right side view. Do more if necessary.
good luck
posaune
Posaune is too polite to say:
Probably it would have been better to add the hole 2,5cm to the front balance. The back chestline bows upwards a bit now because it is too short and the armholes push the chestline down.
Quote from: peterle on April 07, 2016, 07:51:10 PM
Posaune is too polite to say:
Probably it would have been better to add the hole 2,5cm to the front balance. The back chestline bows upwards a bit now because it is too short and the armholes push the chestline down.
I'm not so sure, because I can feel things that the photos don't show.
With the latest adjustment the front of the neckhole is sitting against my neck. I can't feel the back, but my wife says it is right at the nape.
I'm concerned that if I make the front longer (1cm or 3/8"), and take an equal amount from the back, the neckhole will come further back. This would make the collar stand away from the back of the neck and put pressure against the throat.
Plus, it's easier to put in a wedge :). Or actually, change the shape of the strip I sewed out of the back so it takes less from CB length.
And just for Hutch, I'll go over it with the iron afterwards.
Quote
I'm concerned that if I make the front longer (1cm or 3/8"), and take an equal amount from the back, the neckhole will come further back. This would make the collar stand away from the back of the neck and put pressure against the throat.
This is a misunderstanding:
You should make the front longer AND the back longer (by removing the 1cm strip seam).
This would shift the hole chestline 1cm downwards. So the armholes get 1cm deeper and don´t get pushed down by the arms anymore, because they are deep enough.
Quote from: peterle on April 07, 2016, 10:55:50 PM
This is a misunderstanding:
You should make the front longer AND the back longer (by removing the 1cm strip seam).
This would shift the hole chestline 1cm downwards. So the armholes get 1cm deeper and don´t get pushed down by the arms anymore, because they are deep enough.
OK. So in other words, no change in balance, but deeper scyes. And rather than recut the scyes, add length to front and back.
This means new sleeves, but I'm sure that was coming anyway.
Front balance longer and back balance longer=deeper armholes.
That´s what balance is about. To get the chestline deep enough to pass under the arms and to get it level all around.
Try the back wedge alteration first, maybe it succeedes.
Quote from: peterle on April 08, 2016, 12:57:18 AM
Try the back wedge alteration first, maybe it succeedes.
Too late now! While you were typing, I was altering.
I dropped the front and back equal amounts. Added a gusset to the sleeve seam under the arm to account for the extra scye length.
It seems to have had the desired effect. Pressure on the scye under the right arm is probably due to the dropped shoulder.
The wrinkles in the upper back are a little more noticeable. Is there too much width here or is something else going on?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsu00qgivl.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpssqp610gf.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsnggk0vmu.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsr59hrqzu.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpszxhhv9sx.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsboqgpszf.jpg)
Peterle, your description of balance sounds like shoulder slope and armhole size, which has nothing to do with balance. Balance has to do with raising one neckline and lowering the other, front and back or back and front. What it does have with the armholes is rotate them into there proper position. In other words, the "egg shape" has been rotated to fit the, since out of balance throw it out of kilter. Therefore, properly placed angle wise. A well designed pattern system the neckline and armhole shape work together - by fixing one you fix the other. So, another way to see if balance is correct is to glance at the armhole (each armhole has its own balance). A poor pattern system is unreliable.
Quote from: Greger on April 08, 2016, 02:15:23 AM
What it does have with the armholes is rotate them into there proper position. In other words, the "egg shape" has been rotated to fit the, since out of balance throw it out of kilter. Therefore, properly placed angle wise.
I'm curious. Which one of your reference books contains this definition of balance? I'd like to learn more about it. Several authors have slightly different definitions, but I haven't seen one that included armscye rotation.
I'm glad I'm not JRuley making this block, I'd have torn out all my hair by now. I'm not sure there has been full acknowledgement of the effects of the scoliosis, so the recommendations look like they are yo-yo-ing back and forth (and all over the place).
I think Jim is doing a great job, this style of research is a gold mine of information for people who are interested in coat design but have not done as much research as Jim has done. I have enjoyed reading this range of posts because sooner or later I want to design a jacket out of a fabric I have here but don't really know enough about sleeve design. The preferred design I am after is a raglan sleeve with a raised center seam so that I don't tear out the armpit or top seam. (very square shoulders).
I also think Jim is doing a great job.
Quote from: Henry Hall on April 08, 2016, 08:14:31 AM
I also think Jim is doing a great job.
Thank you, but the credit rightfully belongs to peterle, TTailor and posaune who are taking on the nearly impossible task of counseling a novice in another country (and time zone), without any real idea of his skill level or the accuracy of his measurements. If Jim gets any credit it's for trying to ask the right questions and show a little tenacity.
There have been some differences in opinion, which is inevitable when more than one reviewer is involved; but the trends have been consistent:
- everyone agreed on the need for shoulder blade length
- everyone agreed on reducing the neckhole size
- everyone agreed on the front wedge
- everyone agreed on the balance adjustment, though it wasn't enough the first time
I hope we will soon have the balance nailed down to everyone's satisfaction, and can move on to the scoliosis/dropped shoulder corrections. Then maybe clean up the upper back, and I can put in some darts and make a finished close-fitting shirt pattern.
Thanks again everyone for your time and patience!
I don't believe I have seen any concrete definition of balance.
But balance is an aesthetic proportion that affects the eye. Some elements of balance are so critical as to be totally essential.
The best place to read about this is King-Wilson. He has defined major and minor balance for his own purposes but I expect every single tailor would agree with his principals
It must actually exist in every part of a garment - including fashion elements. But here we are dealing with the fundamental structure of the bodice.
Next is everything else. :)
The block you are working on is it for a variety of shirt styles? When you mentioned darts I thought you were after a coat block. You know Jim, the first tailor didn't learn from a book. Hope your shirt block turns out well.
QuoteThe block you are working on is it for a variety of shirt styles? When you mentioned darts I thought you were after a coat block.
The book I'm using (see post #1) calls this a "close-fitting torso sloper". It can be used for a variety of shirt styles. With front and back darts, and some minor changes to the side seam, it becomes a close-fitting shirt. That's my short-term goal.
The authors also show how to manipulate the sloper to draft other garments, including vests, casual jackets and suit jackets. If you don't want a close-fitting style they show how to add ease to make a "classic-fitting sloper".
In the long term, once the shirt works I'm looking forward to applying the author's methods to a vest and jacket. I suspect it won't be as simple as they make it sound but it could be a route to a viable pattern. If it doesn't work, the shirt exercise has at least given me clues as to changes I might need to make to a jacket draft.
Quote
You know Jim, the first tailor didn't learn from a book. Hope your shirt block turns out well.
Are there two users named "greger"? The other one told me I could never have too many books, and chided me for not wanting to learn from books. This one is telling me there are things which are not in the books. Which the first one criticized me for saying!
My friend, you are consistent only in your inconsistency :)
I've started a new thread on definitions and applications of balance measures here:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=248.0
So I hope we can get back to adjusting the toile. What is the next change I should make?
In the new pic set the toile seems to stand away from the body at the cf waistline. Is this right?
If so, open all but the uppest buttons and look what the center front lines want to do. Do they lap over? Do they gape?
Lapping over would suggest to lengthen the front balance a bit more.
Please mark the neckhole and clip that neckhole SAs as Posaune describes. Otherwise it´s hard to tell wether the neckhole or the SAs cause that pulling.
Here it is. Wants to gape open, but just a little.
Can you see the neck seam now?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpscziopxw8.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsracxna1j.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsnatohask.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsh80durmd.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsuproviyz.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsjnqwwelg.jpg)
Thanks for marking the neckhole. The neckhole lines sits on the right spot I think. and clipping the SAs did help es well. The left shoulder (the not dropping one) looks very good from the front.
The gaping fronts would indicate a too long front balance. BUT: I think the edges pull open because the hip is too tight. Does the sloper cling to the hips? The pic shows the button hole side is strictly vertical and the button side is pulled towards the hip. So open the right sideseam from hem to somwhere between waist and chestline and see what happens.
This will probably also change the diagonal fold at the right back to a vertical fold.
The back: the chestline is yet bowing upwards in the middle. A bit of it is caused by a now too short back balance appr. 1cm.
So doing the things Posaune said in post 62 will help.
Somthing I don´t understand: Looking at the back picture I measure across the back from armhole seam to armhole seam (cabinet knob height). CB to left armhole is 6,1cm CB to right armhole is 6,6cm. Is this just an illusion?
Quote from: peterle on April 10, 2016, 02:02:03 AM
Somthing I don´t understand: Looking at the back picture I measure across the back from armhole seam to armhole seam (cabinet knob height). CB to left armhole is 6,1cm CB to right armhole is 6,6cm. Is this just an illusion?
I checked the upper backs at several levels and they are the same width. So I'm probably just not standing perfectly square to the camera.
Other alterations pending....
Here it is with the 3/8" (1 cm) wedge in the back, and the right side seam free from about 3" below the chest line. These were taken unbuttoned except at the top. I have buttoned ones too but it hangs pretty much exactly the same.
The camera was a little tilted, I think one tripod leg was on the rug and one not.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsnnj7aig3.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsgdob7uio.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsoxnitvd3.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsqlrf32tq.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsqhgk637d.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpserwopkb1.jpg)
I think it needs more. Maybe even as much as 2 cm. The hem seems about that much shorter at the back than the front.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 10, 2016, 09:29:06 AM
I think it needs more. Maybe even as much as 2 cm. The hem seems about that much shorter at the back than the front.
I think some of that may go away once the side and back seams are tweaked to remove excess width in the back. But it might need more between the chest and waist lines. We shall see what the experts say.
What interests me is that with the right side seam out, the folds look nearly symmetrical. So what does that say about the dropped shoulder correction?
From the front view, it is clear that the shoulders and the hips do not line up. The shoulders are displaced to the left. This is a fixed postural change and is in fact termed a scoliosis. You could see that by tracing the front image and measuring like this:
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii605/Schneiderfrei/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg) (http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/Schneiderfrei/media/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg.html)
The entire left trunk profile is completely straight. The right trunk profile exhibits a strong curve.
It s clear that the arms are resting lightly against the sides.
What is not known to me is what appropriate pattern adjustment would be made here. You wouldn't want the CF to slope diagonally? Do you make changes that are the same as a dropped right shoulder? I feel I would want to remove some cloth from the right chest in a lateral way. Maybe this is a problem of lateral balance?
I think I have reached a fork in the road at this point.
Posaune (see the yoke thread) thinks the shoulder dart is mislocated and belongs nearer the neck. I think this might help with the folds in the back shoulder, but in any case it will make the back behave differently, with possble unforeseen consequences.
We also have a couple of iteration's worth of strips and wedges, which may not have been sewn precisely. We have gussets in the sleeve seam and the cap needs to be reshaped to correspond with the new armhole shape from the balance changes.
So: Rather than just change the upper back, is it time to collect all these changes, redraft the pattern and make a whole new toile?
And, since the fitted shirt will have front and back darts, is it time to incorporate them as well?
EDIT: After a little more thought, I can test both posaune's relocation of the dart and my yoke idea by -- recutting the existing back and adding a yoke! And take the results of that step into the next draft.
I'm still wondering about the effect that vertical darts in the front and back, from the chest line to hip level, might have on the balance. Opinions?
Thanks,
Jim
Your muslin is by far not dead yet. Rip out the sleeves. Sew a strip from waist to hem and close the right side.(You have measured before how much it gapes) The right side is wider now. It can be that you have to take away at left side. And pin out at right shoulder seam maybe 1.5 cm taper to nothing at neck.
Then we have done something for asymmetric - it is not all but will do.
After this you can try to take out at back.
Take out at hem on each side - start with 1 cm fold going up. Place of the fold: 2/3 at waist from CB. Go straight up to where you have cut for the wedge. Open from armhole the seam a bit and sew that fold. Shut the wedge again . And you have later to true the back armhole. This will make the back smaller.
If it is a success repeat if necessary. If it is to much for the back widtn but not for the lower body begin to taper from waist up.
lg
posaune
vertical darts do nothing for the vertical balance
OK, let's go a-yoking. And hope we're not just joking...
Here is a copy of the upper back with the shoulder dart removed. The original cut lines are indicated by dashes.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/01_zpsnhdixm2h.jpg)
The cut is relocated near the actual prominence of my shoulder blades. Then the pieces are arranged for a shoulder dart, adding 3/8" length along the blades:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/02_zpsypelo3fd.jpg)
Here is the resulting dart. I copied this to keep in case it is needed later. For a jacket, I might be able to ease in this amount of length in some materials.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/03_zpsuqekp4pq.jpg)
Now the pieces are arranged to make the dart in the scye:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/04_zpsqtjyckjb.jpg)
Here is the resulting dart. Rather than cut like this, it is easy to extend the line across the back and make a separate yoke.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/05_zpsapqcghtl.jpg)
Here is the back cut down (with seam added) and the separate yoke piece.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/06_zpsu5wzrh7f.jpg)
Going through the old pattern pieces I also found I had added seam allowance twice to the sides of the back. This will be corrected when the mockup is reassembled. Since it looks like the right side needs more material, I will just set the seam over and leave the extra width as inlay.
I will make this change, and post results before beginning to work on the asymmetry. I want to see what it does to the shoulders.
Here it is with the new shoulder yoke. Getting the fullness in the right place really helped. Taking the surplus material out of the back side seams also helped with the bagginess.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb_zpsbl3eohpy.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fbs_zpsbouashut.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb_zps6oxi0qjd.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bbs_zps4uxjexcn.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb_zps3eukojyo.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb_zpssohptvnq.jpg)
Here it is hanging from the top button, with the right side seam freed up a few inches below the chest line:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu_zpshiaviayp.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fus_zpsz0tzl7os.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bu_zpsznhngrtx.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bus_zpsl8ksumym.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lu_zpsdi8gzlaj.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ru_zps9kpouzwa.jpg)
Oh I see, you had a busy weekend.
It improved a lot I think.
The uppest back is smooth now.
But I think you need the yoke seam a bit higher.
Can you see where the diagonal folds point to at the shoulderblades? This is where your yoke seam should be. This is the peak point of your shoulder blades, and here is the point where the tip of the dart should be.
Start with the piece of the third pic in post 89: this is how the dart should be located. Draw a horizontal line through the tip of the dart and and cut it from the armhole to the tip of the dart.
Fold the dart close. A new dart will open towards the armhole. The dart edge and the line will be your back yokeseam.
For the front yokeseam I like to shift the seam line approx. 2cm to the front. At this place you can hollow the seamlines 0,5cm to fit the hollow of the body in this area.
With these additional changes maybe now it's time for a new toile. Before I do that, do you think the yoke made any change to the balance?
The back balance yet seems to be too short relatively to the front.
When you take the cabinets edge as reference horizontal line, you can see how much the chestline in the back is higher than in the front. This is to be equalized.
You don´t need the sleeves for adjusting the balance.
You could just pin a narrow strip across the chest to test the effect of shortening the front balance.
Part of the reason for the"dancing" back hem is your forward hip posture I think. it is not only the balance.
You dont need a new toile. save time, work and fabric and keep this.
Quote from: peterle on April 12, 2016, 04:19:45 AM
The back balance yet seems to be too short relatively to the front.
When you take the cabinets edge as reference horizontal line, you can see how much the chestline in the back is higher than in the front. This is to be equalized.
I see the front chest line lower than the back when the toile is unbuttoned.
But when it is buttoned (first six photos), the front is higher than the back.
So which one is to be believed?
I didn´t realize that there are buttoned and unbuttoned pics. I didn´t scroll far enough up.
You have to judge the buttoned pics. But with opened/widened sides seam.
There the balance seems to be ok. the back chestline is nearly straight, hardly any curving.
When you alter the back dart as i wrote, the dart will also take a bit more out at the armhole than now. This would be good.
There is no need for a new toile, just open the dart portion of the current yokeseam and resew it straight/undarted. Then you can reinstall the dart only as it results from the pattern alteration. You don´t need an actual seam across the back.
Quote from: peterle on April 12, 2016, 08:35:28 PM
There is no need for a new toile, just open the dart portion of the current yokeseam and resew it straight/undarted. Then you can reinstall the dart only as it results from the pattern alteration. You don´t need an actual seam across the back.
I will "flatten the dart" as you suggest and then recut the upper back to fit the new yoke. I have to develop the new pattern piece anyway so may as well do it now. Also want to extend the yoke into the upper front as you suggested in post #91.
Thanks,
Jim
Ok. But defining the yokeseams is usually one of the last steps, it´s just a detail. Fit is more important. Don´t forget you have to do a drop shoulder yet.
Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.
Quote from: peterle on April 12, 2016, 11:59:35 PM
Ok. But defining the yokeseams is usually one of the last steps, it´s just a detail. Fit is more important. Don´t forget you have to do a drop shoulder yet.
I was thinking I could cut the yoke the same on both sides, and take out for the drop shoulder on the top of front and back. Is there any reason this won't work?
Quote
Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.
Good thinking as always!
Quote from: jruley on April 13, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
I was thinking I could cut the yoke the same on both sides, and take out for the drop shoulder on the top of front and back. Is there any reason this won't work?
A drop shoulder adjustment usually involves also a shoulder slope adjustment for the dropped shoulder and sometimes a neck point adjustment. Doing this in the yoke seam will probably lead to new difficulties like diagonal drag lines. Maybe this is a quick and dirty method for shirtmakers, but when you make the effort to do a toile, take the other way.
OK, here is my development of the new yoke so peterle can find my mistakes.
Start with copying the upper back piece with the shoulder dart. A line is squared out from CB at the level of the point of the dart. This will be the yoke seam:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/01_zpscxmww8ed.jpg)
The old pattern piece is laid over the copy, and the dart is pivoted closed. The outline is copied beyond the dart, and the dart seam line is copied on the old piece:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/02_zpscmhzpfce.jpg)
The shouder dart is re-opened, and the line transferred to the old piece is copied on the new one. This transfers the dart from the shoulder to the scye, and will be the seam line on the back:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/03_zpskvkduzxv.jpg)
The yoke is extended by placing the front in position, overlapping the seams. The scye and neck lines are copied, and a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern. Seam allowance is added to this line.
Here is the resulting piece after being cut out. Seam lines are dashed (the shoulder seam location is still shown for reference). A separate yoke piece can be copied from this, and the remainder (with seam added) attached to the back.
Looking at this I'm not sure I want the yoke to come down this far in front. Any opinions?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/04_zps0xuohfmb.jpg)
Quote from: peterle on April 13, 2016, 12:57:05 AM
A drop shoulder adjustment usually involves also a shoulder slope adjustment for the dropped shoulder and sometimes a neck point adjustment. Doing this in the yoke seam will probably lead to new difficulties like diagonal drag lines. Maybe this is a quick and dirty method for shirtmakers, but when you make the effort to do a toile, take the other way.
Based on this I will stop the yoke at the shoulder seam for now. It can always be extended onto the front later. Would still like to know if I did the development right this time.
Sorry to interrupt the flow here, but is that strange looking front extension ("a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern"?) really what peterle meant? Usually the shoulder seam line is shifted 1.5 or 2 cm towards the front in a parallel way:
(http://s21.postimg.org/m9oxlqql3/shseam_To_Front.png)
lay front and back together at A, move shoulder line from A to B, true armhole at C (back shoulder is usually longer and eased in, to create a pseudo-dart)
It is common in shirt patterns and gives a pleasing effect, provided the original shoulder seam ran on top of the shoulder ridge of the body, i.e. the trapezius muscle. Because it moves the shoulder seam away from its most effective position, it should not be implemented before the shoulders are fitted.
End of interruption.
Quote from: lepus on April 13, 2016, 06:03:31 AM
Sorry to interrupt the flow here, but is that strange looking front extension ("a horizontal line from the front is copied on the pattern"?) really what peterle meant?
Peterle suggested:
Quote from: peterle on April 12, 2016, 11:59:35 PM
Before you define the front yoke seam, consider wether it should be parallel to the existing shoulder seam or not. I prefer the front yokeseam running parallel with the shoulder edge of the body when looking from the front. This is easier to determin on the toile than on paper.
So, I put on the toile and had my wife chalk a line that appeared horizontal from the front. It ran from the top of the CF line to a point about 1" from the seam at the shoulder end.
I laid the pieces together as you show, and located the line on the front. I added one seam (1/2"). What I posted is the result.
I checked my closet, and none of my shirts have a front yoke this deep. In fact the front seam appears to be parallel to the shoulder line in most cases. Having made the draft I thought peterle might want to see it.
Hello all, I'm back after being away some time.
It might be too late now, but for the yoke I would be tempted to use few methods from pattern draping in combination with the flat pattern making here.
First, instead of drawing the seams, I would pin a narrow black tape or thick black yarn where I want the seams to be. It has the advantage that you can move the tape freely and not leave any marks on the muslin when re-positioning. You can take photo, check the look and if necessary repeat until you like it. The same method I would use if I wanted / had to re-position the shoulder seams. The main reason is that I am fitting myself and more tries are necessary this way. You can better see the results in the mirror / photos as well. When you are sure the seam is in its final position, either baste the tape here or draw the line now and take the tape down.
Then I would draw and cut the yoke (with narrow seam allowances) and pin or baste OVER the current test garment to check the result once more. If this fits, and because I am thrifty and lazy, I would later cut the current front and back part on top where the new seam (with seam allowance) would be and continue from there.
Me personally, I am not re-cutting anything unless I have to. The only reason for me is that the current muslin is no longer usable - either too many marks on it, there are big changes in size of the pattern part or if the fabric got out of shape.
Jim, please controll your armhole shape - I think maybe it is off after your alteration.
And do first the right shoulder - yoke style is secundary.
lg
posaune
I had in mind what lepus shows. I shift the front yoke seams usually for 2cm to the front.
I just wanted to say that sometimes a slightly angled seamline is more flattering than making the seamline strictly parallel to the existing one. This can be judged only by wearing the toile and marking the new seamline like majka wrote.
Your dart rotating looks allright. The pattern lines should be harmonized with a french curve, removing sudden kinks in the seams like where front and back join.
Quote from: posaune on April 13, 2016, 07:07:57 PM
Jim, please controll your armhole shape - I think maybe it is off after your alteration.
This is why it is time to think about a new toile. After all the changes have accumulated the sleeves no longer fit exactly. The pitch marks no longer line up and I am easing things in place by feel. The sleeve may be distorting the armhole or vice versa. Also, because of the length that was added to the front armhole the shape of the sleeve cap curve is off. No sense fitting the shoulders if I'm going to have to do it over.
Quote
And do first the right shoulder - yoke style is secundary.
lg
posaune
Well, I can't leave the current yoke in place because the prominence is in the wrong position. I can't go back to the old upper back, because the dart was wrong, and I threw it away in any case.
So, it's either a new upper back with the new yoke, or a new upper back with shoulder darts.
Since the shirt will be made with a yoke, I think it makes most sense to go that way. I also like the idea of having an unbroken shoulder seam (no dart) for the dropped shoulder alteration. I can keep the seam line on the shoulder for now, and worry about moving it to front for better appearance later.
So, my plan is:
- alter the upper back of the new toile to incorporate the new yoke shape (with front seam on shoulder)
- make any needed balance correction (not expected)
- make initial dropped shoulder corrections
- make new toile, incorporating all changes, with scye curves smooth and corrected sleeves
- go from there.
Comments please?
Don´t concentrate on the sleeves too much now. They are easier to draft when the armhole is fixed and fitting the body is possible without attached sleeves as well.
Here is the new back pattern with the separate yoke piece ending at the shoulder seam. The slight tilting of the CB above the chest line is due to the small wedge inserted in the back as in post #83.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/patt_zpseg0dyqeb.jpg)
Comparing this pattern to the existing back, I found some extra width at the chest line on the toile. I may have stretched the fabric slightly when inserting the wedge. In view of this defect I cut new backs to go with the yoke pieces.
Here is how the resulting body fits. Sleeves were left off and right side seam open per peterle's instructions:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps3hpvibis.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsdbkgodmk.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsjev0k3vd.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsfajkumkx.jpg)
How does it feel to wear it now?
Seems we have everything on the right place now.
The folds in the upper back are all more or less vertical. this indicates the back is yet a bit too wide. Did you measure your body back width? How much ease is between the armholes?
Usually the wedging (post83) is made in the middle between neckhole and chestline. So the backseam is straight from hem to this point.
In a shirt the center back has to be completely straight from hem to the yoke at least, because there is no back seam in a shirt.
Shift the lower back yoke seam line parallely towards the center back (about 1cm) till the CB is straight. Reconnect the shifted end points of the line to the lower armhole and to the CB.
This picture set doesn´t show a low right shoulder. Meanwhile I think the dropped shoulder impression is mainly caused by the shifted hip posture.
So I would adress the hip thing first.
Quote from: peterle on April 15, 2016, 08:22:16 PM
How does it feel to wear it now?
Seems we have everything on the right place now.
The folds in the upper back are all more or less vertical. this indicates the back is yet a bit too wide. Did you measure your body back width? How much ease is between the armholes?
It feels OK but of course much tighter than I am used to. Not like the fabric is straining, but difficult to put on and take off. About like a closely fitted vest.
Back interscye width measured as 16", so 8" for half. The back is exactly this wide at the narrowest part of scye. The measure could be off but I am reluctant to tighten it more, unless you think it is clearly necessary.
Quote
In a shirt the center back has to be completely straight from hem to the yoke at least, because there is no back seam in a shirt.
Shift the lower back yoke seam line parallely towards the center back (about 1cm) till the CB is straight. Reconnect the shifted end points of the line to the lower armhole and to the CB.
Shall I save this for a new toile, or does it need to be changed before working on the hip?
Quote
This picture set doesn´t show a low right shoulder. Meanwhile I think the dropped shoulder impression is mainly caused by the shifted hip posture.
So I would adress the hip thing first.
Should I just add a wedge at the side seam, or is this more complicated?
I look forward to reading more comments and ideas, but will be away from home for a few days starting tomorrow. So the poor tired toile gets a rest. :).
Your posture is quite asymmetrical, and the lacking symmetry begins at the yoke and reaches down to hip height.
My theory is, your shoulders are shifted parallely to the left relatively to your hips. The body center line is not strictlty vertical, it´s slanted, out of plumb.
We have to do the same to the pattern.
So changing the side seam alone will not be enough.
How much is the hip out of plumb? Let a weighted string hang vertically down from the nape of the neck. Your buttocks, the line in between to be more precise, will show you how much. No pics needed of this step;-)
I would do the following:
Take a piece of paper, double width of the back pattern plus some inches. Fold in half lengthwise. This fold will be the CB. Put the back pattern on the folded paper CB on CB and copy the pattern to the new paper with a tracing wheel. Don´t forget the chest and waistline. Correct/shift the yoke seam in the same step.
Unfold the paper. You see the hole back pattern. It´s symmetric. elongate the chestline, waistline and hemline towards the right.
Draw the new slanted center line. At the yoke it meets the foldline. At the hem it will be the measured amount towards the right from the fold line.
Now determin the new sideseam points by shifting them towards the right. They must have the same distance to the new center line as the old points had to the old center line.
Connect the new points using the old pattern as a template.
Voila´the hole back is slanted now.
Do the same with the front parts. Here the hem line of the pattern will shift to the left.
For the buttonhole/ button line you will have to make a decision:
When you sew the buttonholes along the new slanted center line, the center front won´t be vertical but it would meet the fly line of the trousers.
When you sew the buttonholes along the old center line, the center front will be vertical but not meet the center front of the trousers.
This would be my approach; does anybody have an alternative idea to cover this posture?
Quote from: peterle on April 16, 2016, 02:23:32 AM
My theory is, your shoulders are shifted parallely to the left relatively to your hips. The body center line is not strictlty vertical, it´s slanted, out of plumb.
That's exactly what's going on with the suspected scoliosis. In postural scoliosis all the imbalance disappears on flexion (bending over) or when sitting - the latter when it is primarily in the hips and caused by contracting the hip (pelvic tilt) or one leg being shorter.
Don't know if Jim has had back pain, but that sideways list from the hips with one arm (in his case the right) further from the side, is also very characteristic of a lumbar disc prolapse. There's quite a bit of pain with that though.
Quote from: Henry Hall on April 16, 2016, 03:23:28 AM
Don't know if Jim has had back pain, but that sideways list from the hips with one arm (in his case the right) further from the side, is also very characteristic of a lumbar disc prolapse. There's quite a bit of pain with that though.
Nope, no history of back pain to report.
Shorter leg? You may not notice until it is actually measured by someone else.
Quote from: Henry Hall on April 16, 2016, 05:29:48 AM
Shorter leg? You may not notice until it is actually measured by someone else.
I suppose it's possible.
I also sprained my right ankle about 14 years ago and never completed a course of therapy for it. I probably favor that leg as a result, and that may be showing itself in the scoliosis.
Here are the new back and yoke pieces resulting from the change peterle suggested in post #112. The back centerline and side seams are skewed 1/4" to the right from the chest line to the hip line. The upper back and yoke are unchanged, except for straightening the CB line as per post #110.
I want to be sure this is what was intended before making corresponding changes to the fronts.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/nb_zpsidlhwghn.jpg)
As you can see at the different behavior of the back armholes of your toile, the upper back of your body is also skewed.
You have to picture this in the pattern.
Beginn the slanting at the yokeseam, the whole sideseam/armhole line is to be changed. Beginning the alteration at the chestline would be too low.
I also think that 1/4 " will not be enough. in the pics it seems to need about 3/4 -1".
Hi peterle, I wondered about this lateral correction earlier. Is there a danger of constructing a slanted CF. Might that simply draw attention to the fact.
BTW jruley, a scoliosis only refers to the actual curve in the spine, some are formed as a compensation to some other postural problem some are congenital ie completely hardwired into the body. Such a curvature is not necessarily associated with pain at all or it may give rise to serious problems. Yours does not seem severe.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 27, 2016, 10:02:31 PM
Hi peterle, I wondered about this lateral correction earlier. Is there a danger of constructing a slanted CF. Might that simply draw attention to the fact.
The slanted CF line is just a construction line. You can choose a different vertical button line for the garment.
But it will be visible in any case. One option is a slightly slanted button line, the other option is the buttonlline is vertical but doesn´t meet the trouser´s center/zip fly when tucked in.
I think a vertical button line will make the asymmetry less obvious and will be easier to handle with patterned fabrics.
Quote
I also think that 1/4 " will not be enough. in the pics it seems to need about 3/4 -1".
My wife applied the procedure you suggested:
Quote
How much is the hip out of plumb? Let a weighted string hang vertically down from the nape of the neck. Your buttocks, the line in between to be more precise, will show you how much. No pics needed of this step;-)
She observed the, ahem, "Gesäßrissverschiebung" was very small, more like 1/8". I though we should start with something a little larger.
If the 1/4" is right, I can test this by adjusting the side seams on the existing toile. The upper back is shifted so little by this small skew that it doesn't matter if I start at the yoke seam or chest line. Obviously it will matter if more is needed.
Quote
Is there a danger of constructing a slanted CF. Might that simply draw attention to the fact.
The CF line is already slanted due to the corpulent adjustment that was made to the shirt front.
Another method would be to look how much the side seam lines gape when you wear the toile with unsewn side seams. I´m sure it will be more than 1/2".
Here is the old toile with the side seams skewed. After trying the 1/4" from chest line to hip (not shown), I increased the skew to 1/4" from chest line to waist. The side seams are open below the waist line.
The back appears to me to be nearly symmetrical now, and the amount of gap below the waist is about the same side to side.
So what do the professionals see?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpscfzviecg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps1k906tbg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsaemirq49.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpseqpraddo.jpg)
It is improved but only slightly. It still looks largely like this diagram traced from your previous posting, (below). The measurements on the tracing are only taken from the tracing and are not your real body measurements but I included them to show the proportion of difference. The real difference looks to be at least a half inch if not three quarters.
In the back view of your new posting the left side seam still appears very straight and the right side is slanted to the left.
The slant I was referring to in the centre front is referring to a sideways slant, not a forward/backward slant that is produced by the corpulent adjustment.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 10, 2016, 02:37:33 PM
From the front view, it is clear that the shoulders and the hips do not line up. The shoulders are displaced to the left. This is a fixed postural change and is in fact termed a scoliosis. You could see that by tracing the front image and measuring like this:
(http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii605/Schneiderfrei/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg) (http://s1262.photobucket.com/user/Schneiderfrei/media/jruley/jruley%201_zpsta5sw8z2.jpg.html)
The entire left trunk profile is completely straight. The right trunk profile exhibits a strong curve.
It s clear that the arms are resting lightly against the sides.
What is not known to me is what appropriate pattern adjustment would be made here. You wouldn't want the CF to slope diagonally? Do you make changes that are the same as a dropped right shoulder? I feel I would want to remove some cloth from the right chest in a lateral way. Maybe this is a problem of lateral balance?
Peterle, Thanks re the construction line note. Of course, that is so sensible.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on April 28, 2016, 11:04:20 AM
In the back view of your new posting the left side seam still appears very straight and the right side is slanted to the left.
You've lost me - I can't see either side seam in the back view. There is a fold of cloth on each side which obscures them.
What I meant by "symmetrical" wasn't that the sides are mirror images. That's not going to happen with the scoliosis. I meant that the folds and wrinkles appear in about the same places and sizes on both sides. Maybe "evenly distributed excess" would have been a better term.
Well, at the level of the hips you can see past the folds. The right is still diagonal while the left is still more vertical. There is still a cant to the 'horizontal balance' lines at the waist and chest. Perhaps, I am mistaken but i think you could get a bit better yet in those terms. I think when the shirt hangs without stress there should be less difference between the right and left sides and the chest and waist marking lines will be dead flat.
These pic set doesn´t allow a judgement of the alterations.
First pull the toile up a bit in the back. the CB point of the toile is worn a bit too deep in this pic set. This disturbes the balance.
The sideseams have to be closed to show the difference.
But I´m sure, closed side seams will show a pulling towards the right hip. And the excess isn´t ditributed evenly: see the long fold at the left in the back pic?, it runs straight from the middle of the armhole towards the peak of the butt (is this a appropriate term?Im´not sure). on the right side it is not. There it runs to the end of the sewn side seam and meets another pulling fold coming up from the peak of the butt.
so my proposal would be:
reopen the sides seams completely,
Put the garment on the table and flatten the back piece.
take the paper pattern and line up the right sideseam/armhole line with the garment.
Take a needle and drive it through the point where armholeline and yokeseam meet.
This is your pivot point.
Now pivot the paper pattern in a way, that the hem/sides seam point moves to the right about 3/4 -1".
Secure paper with weights and copy the armhole/sideseam line to the fabric.
Repeat on the left side, repositioning the seam also to the right.
Do the same to the front parts, making sure everything moves towards your right hip.
Resew.
Quote from: peterle on April 28, 2016, 07:57:53 PM
so my proposal would be:
reopen the sides seams completely,
Put the garment on the table and flatten the back piece.
take the paper pattern and line up the right sideseam/armhole line with the garment.
Take a needle and drive it through the point where armholeline and yokeseam meet.
This is your pivot point.
Now pivot the paper pattern in a way, that the hem/sides seam point moves to the right about 3/4 -1".
Secure paper with weights and copy the armhole/sideseam line to the fabric.
Repeat on the left side, repositioning the seam also to the right.
Do the same to the front parts, making sure everything moves towards your right hip.
Resew.
Unfortunately there is not enough seam allowance/inlay in the existing toile for these alterations. The ones in the last photos were the limit.
So, I will make a new toile. For this I assume I should follow the instructions in post #112, skewting the CB line 3/4" - 1" to the right from the yoke seam to the hem line.
Do I understand correctly?
Here are the new pattern pieces with the CB line skewed to the right 3/4". I have kept the CF line the same for convenience in cutting the fronts on the double, but skewed the side seams the same amounts as the backs.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpscjg9j8eu.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsodk8v1fi.jpg)
I have allowed 1" at the side seams in case additional alterations need to be made.
Don´t make a new one. Just sew a strip of fabric to the back right and front left edge where you need it.
You don´t need the center line for the alteration of 128. You just need the side seam/armhole lines to do this. This alteration is just for the toile. If it fits, you can transfer this alteration to the paper pattern.
This alteration will have more or less the same effect as the alteration of 112 would have.
So you can choose between:
1. Changing the paper pattern according 112, transferring the new lines to the toile or a new toile(3/4h work at least).
2. Or making alteration 128 to the toile(10 minutes work) and transferring it to paper when it fits. This is the obviousely the economic version.
You´ve been faster then me. My last post was the answer to 129.
So you did the paper alteration of 112.
Ok.
But don´t make a new toile, it would be waste of time and fabric.
Quote from: peterle on April 29, 2016, 02:02:56 AM
So you did the paper alteration of 112.
Ok.
That, plus lunch and a load of laundry! Retirement living is nice...
Quote
But don´t make a new toile, it would be waste of time and fabric.
Seriously, it's starting to resemble a patchwork quilt. Making the pattern took longer than cutting and sewing some muslin will.
Here is the new toile:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsxlmxzbg9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsfb2vs7zg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpshurvzju9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsfnwbreza.jpg)
Flattening the upper back seems to have increased the shoulder slope, especially on the left side. The photos show slack in the top and back of the left armhole. This is much less pronounced on the right side.
seems we are on the right way...
So let´s talk about measurments:
Is your hip width (measured over trousers) wider than your chest width?
I think the hip displacement is regarded sufficiently now, but I think the hemline/hipline is a bit too small all over and causes a pulling on the left and on the right side.
so making the hemline wider for about 2-3cm per seam would release this tightness.
Quote from: peterle on April 29, 2016, 07:48:42 PM
seems we are on the right way...
So let´s talk about measurments:
Is your hip width (measured over trousers) wider than your chest width?
I think the hip displacement is regarded sufficiently now, but I think the hemline/hipline is a bit too small all over and causes a pulling on the left and on the right side.
so making the hemline wider for about 2-3cm per seam would release this tightness.
Hip circumference is 2-1/2" greater than chest (42-1/2 vs. 40). So, I will re-sew the side seams from waist to hem, adding 3/4" to the width of each side at bottom. That will add a total circumference of 3".
What about the left shoulder?
Here we are with the lower side seams angled for more hip room. The left armhole doesn't seem to be as messy, maybe releasing the tightness helped:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsqcrwvu22.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsguzrvtok.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpso0rwfoeq.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsxcehdbi4.jpg)
I think the shoulder slope needs to be increased slightly. Compare this shot of the back where I am deliberately holding my shoulders high. The upper back looks cleaner:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b2_zpswdfcs3pm.jpg)
The sideway pulling dissappeared with this alteration, so it was too tight at the hiphip. But You should alter the sideseam beginning at the armholemaking a straight line, not a line with a kink .
Are you sure, you did the new toile with all alterations? It seems we had a better balance in the toile #108. Or Maybe you wear the back neck a bit too low?
Quote
Are you sure, you did the new toile with all alterations? It seems we had a better balance in the toile #108. Or Maybe you wear the back neck a bit too low?
Compare the new toile to #123, the last picture set with the old one. Balance looks about the same as the new so the problem is not transferring the alterations.
Compare #123 to #109. The balance did look better in the earlier one. The only change was the side seam skew, so this must have affected the balance somehow.
Here we are with the side seams straightened, and the yoke lowered 1/2" relative to the main part of the back for better balance:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsuh7rmhzo.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsrqdrormw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpspfvhpwaw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsh9pf3yeq.jpg)
The back is defenitely too short now. Ugly diagonal folds beginning at the shoulder blades. So lower it only 1/4" or nothing. I don´t think the back balance was too long. If at all, the front balance was too short.
Please only one alteration per set. It´s easier to see wich effect the straight side seams have, it´s harder to judge this with the back alos shortened.
The right shoulder is dropped a little in the last two sets.
This much I have noticed, it is very difficult to stand dead straight, be it through posture, dropped shoulder or just the way the photo is taken. The rear view is straighter than the front view and that is a mix of how the photo is taken and Jim slightly changing his posture. When I recently has the Harris tweed coat modified, I had to stand as straight as possible, perform my normal range of arm movements as Peter was pinning up the modification but then he is a very experienced tailor who has been doing this for many years and he knew how to pin up the mod.
Now as Jim does not have an independent person who is a tailor to set up the mods he wants, the task is a difficult one because of the number of variables that interfere with properly understand the fit through photographs.
Quote from: hutch-- on April 30, 2016, 08:08:33 PM
The rear view is straighter than the front view and that is a mix of how the photo is taken and Jim slightly changing his posture.
Actually I think what you're seeing is that the camera wasn't level. Look at the slope of the lower cabinet edge. I was trying to level this by shortening one tripod leg and it must have slipped; noticed it only after the apparatus was put away so did not re-take the photos. Something else to watch out for..
Actually, you are right about the camera.
Here it is with the yoke raised to its former position. So this is like #137 with just the side seams straightened as peterle requested.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps0mwhz4wi.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpssiktjeyk.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsuo2ytj5m.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpstehs7w6l.jpg)
I always refer to the lower edge of the cabinets. I think they are installed horizontally? So it wouldn´t matter wether the camera is level or not.
The back is quite good now. There is a very slight dropped right shoulder.(a little kink in the vertical fold).
I don´t know why, but the front balance is a bit too short yet. The hem seems to stand away more than necessary. What happens, when you keep just the uppest button closed? Do the front center lines overlap?
The quick and dirty method for a longer front balance: just resew the side seams, attaching the fronts about 1/2" higher to the back. The front hem will be shorter for this amount.
Quote from: peterle on May 02, 2016, 07:55:39 PM
I don´t know why, but the front balance is a bit too short yet. The hem seems to stand away more than necessary. What happens, when you keep just the uppest button closed? Do the front center lines overlap?
Here is the existing configuration with only the top button buttoned:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu_zpsze2yepzh.jpg)
Here we have the fronts raised 1/2" at the side seams:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps7301vicz.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpslyerkway.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpswmu1dbnv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsx9lijstk.jpg)
And here the front with only the top button buttoned:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu_zpsgxfasijc.jpg)
Nicely done, Peterle. Go on!
Please, Jim, clip that neck hole again but a bit deeper so the fabric can settle down.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on May 03, 2016, 01:03:43 AM
Please, Jim, clip that neck hole again but a bit deeper so the fabric can settle down.
lg
posaune
The neck hole is clipped all the way to the seam line (blue line of stitches showing in photos). Are you saying the neck is too tight?
Jim, yes that is the case but look at front view.Do you see that the fabric sits not nice from neck side to CF (left side in this pic esp.)? Just cut it a bit deeper. If the hole has the right form nothing will happen. If there is need for more room it will spread and "sit" down on you shoulder.
lg
posaune
I think so too.
the garments seems to sit at the neck mostly and not on the whole shoulder like it should. clipping it a bit will relax it.
I also recommend to make a set of pics without t-shirt. the tolie sticks to the t-shirt and the t-shirt twists a bit ( t-shirt shoulder seam at the left arm is displaced to the back severely).
As requested. Neck hole radius is 1/4" larger, toile on bare skin.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsafy62gnp.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpspe9ehjpe.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsrqxtdqgp.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsw3fk6jhm.jpg)
thank you.
I bet you can feel that the garments rests more on the shoulders now.
Please wear the back neck hole a bit higher. this will influence the balance positively. The fluting in the fronts is most probably partly caused by this inbalance in wearing.
Some of the fluting probably is caused by the slanted center front. Maybe we can reduce it a little bit when verified.
If the fronts had been crooked that would have added to the front length and taken pressure off the front chest, not to mention getting rid of some of the problems at the neck.
Quote from: peterle on May 03, 2016, 11:49:33 PM
Please wear the back neck hole a bit higher. this will influence the balance positively. The fluting in the fronts is most probably partly caused by this inbalance in wearing.
My wife pulled the toile up as far as possible in the back but this is where it wants to sit. If this is not what you wanted please explain how to do it:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsx4wsoqq1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsi6ujvxog.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsixtgsutd.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpssnxp1zol.jpg)
This is better. Do you see the differences?
The back hem doesn´t cling to the body anymore, the front doesn´t swing that far forward. To achieve the right position, let your wife strike(stroke?) the garment with flats hands over the sholderblades upwards till the center back neck meets the nape of the neck/ 7th vertebra.
As I see in the pattern pic of the front #130 the center front is slanted more than 1,5" from neck to hem. I think we can reduces this for lets say 1,5cm. this will take out 3cm at the hem and hopefully reduce the vertical flutes.
Just redraw the center front line, 1,5cm in at the hem and 0cm at the neck. No need for buttons and buttonholes, just pin it so we can have a look.
Is there a seam allowance added at the armholes?
Quote
Is there a seam allowance added at the armholes?
Yes, but only 1/4".
Here it is with the fronts pinned over. Doesn't seem to have reduced the fluting much unfortunately.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps7iqbcoqs.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsvbs0jnk7.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsolckal8s.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpskkwpanhd.jpg)
Seems you redrafted the front line only at the underlapping front. Did you shift it for 1,5 or 3cm at the hem?
Are there some inlays at the left hand shoulder seam? there is a shortness in the left sides between chestline and neck/shoulderseam point. this causes a pulling from this point to the chest and prevents the right side neck point to settle. the cause is, your neck is higher at the left side, than than on the right side. In the pattern rise the neckpoint of the left shoulder (front and back) for about 0,5cm and blend in the shoulder- and neckline to the existing lines. In the toile just resew half of the left shoulder seam aiming to the new neckpoints.
I have made the alteration requested to the left shoulder.
First, for reference, here is the front buttoned:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb_zpsc5v4stsb.jpg)
And now the front is pinned together, overlapping 1-1/2" (3 cm) more on the underside (the furthest blue chalk line in the first photo):
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsqbkw0wle.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps1htqavpn.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpswpyovgzv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpssrddu3yu.jpg)
I wonder if I should also increase the slope on the right shoulder? Leaving the neck point as is, and taking a deeper seam at the shoulder end?
Looks a lot better now.
Yes, the right armhole needs a dropped shoulder treatment. 0,75-1cm will be enough.
The how to is covered in fig.1 of Post #86: http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=189.75 (http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=189.75)
Don´t forget to redraft the bottom of both front armholes first, they are yet 1/2" deeper than original because we shifted the front parts upwards for balance lately.
Here it is with the shoulder slope increased on the right side, so you can verify it's enough:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsvgyba8eh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpspi0xua9r.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsael6qzvg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps6xijyojr.jpg)
Quote
Don´t forget to redraft the bottom of both front armholes first, they are yet 1/2" deeper than original because we shifted the front parts upwards for balance lately.
Do you mean I need to cut them deeper in the front, or raise the bottom of scye in the back?
Or should I cut the right front deeper, but raise the back on the left, since we dropped the right shoulder?
It could be a little bit more. how much did you lower the shoulder?
Quote from: jruley on May 05, 2016, 02:05:02 AM
Do you mean I need to cut them deeper in the front, or raise the bottom of scye in the back?
Or should I cut the right front deeper, but raise the back on the left, since we dropped the right shoulder?
We have to make the front and back armhole lines meet at the side seams. When you want deep armholes, redraw(lower) the front armholes, when you want narrow armholes, redraw(raise) the back armholes. But do the same on both sides. Then lower in any case the right armhole bottom the same amount you altered the shoulder slope.
This is the only way to get two identical armholes, so you can use the same sleeve pattern.
Quote from: peterle on May 05, 2016, 05:32:46 AM
It could be a little bit more. how much did you lower the shoulder?
I took 1/4" (0,75 cm) out of both sides of the seam at the shoulder end.
1/4" is just 0,63cm.
Try between 05/16" and 3/8 ".
Here it is with 3/8" out of both sides of the right shoulder end.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsspgx3rpw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpshe926jw9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsdbpkcsjm.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpssqn57xw4.jpg)
Bravo, for me it would be time to put in the sleeve now. You both did very well!!
lg
posaune
(bit clipping at the left neck again 1/3 CF to side seam)
Thank you posaune.
I also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.
Did you yet deepen the right armhole at the bottom? it seems very tight at the back now.
Quote from: peterle on May 06, 2016, 05:21:14 AM
I also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.
I am planning to straighten both CF lines rather than just taking off the right side as pinned, so I will wait to make neck hole changes until we see the effect.
Quote
Did you yet deepen the right armhole at the bottom? it seems very tight at the back now.
I have not touched the armscyes yet. That will be next, along with sleeves.
Here is a new toile incorporating all the changes since post ##. First, without the sleeves. I think I can see what posaune and peterle were saying about scooping out the left neck front more:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsqn8am5dc.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsqhwqkn1z.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsojff0208.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpstljyrwxa.jpg)
New sleeves were drafted to fit the armholes. I chose to lower the scye depth in front to match the back so I could re-use it. As a result the scyes are pretty deep and I can't raise my arms very far without lifting the shirt body. I'm sure the bottom of scye could be 1/2" higher, maybe even 1". Is there a guideline for how close to cut it to the armpit?
Also the end of the right shoulder seems to be off the shoulder slightly.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsvhvaf80y.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fsp_zpsbiw14t2h.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpspbxdcczh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bsp_zpsllw621d6.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ls_zpspjepfkto.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rs_zpsqxr7khi6.jpg)
Your right shoulder seems so much lower than yesterday. we don´t change this for the moment, we don´t want it drop too much.
Yes, the armholes are quite deep now. armhole depth calculation: measured armhole depth + 1". To measure the armhole depth: hang the tape around your back neck, run both ends to the fronts , pass them under the pits and connect them across the back forming a straight line. Measure the distance along center back between lower edge of the tape at the neck and upper edge of the tape across the back. bridge the hollow between the shoulder blades with the thump.
I also think the back is too wide yet. To verify please pin two vertical strips of 1cm width from the shoulderseams to the hem roughly halve between scye and CB. don´t remove the sleeves. This will give us an impression.
Back pinned as requested:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps0mvisygb.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpshetaphdg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpse9xfa054.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps8vwceamu.jpg)
Applying your method confirms that the armholes can be raised, but I will defer that until we decide about changing the back width.
How does it feel? too tight? wide enough?
The back armholes seem to be at the right position now and the sleeves hang much cleaner. When you think it is too tight, take out a little less (0,75cm for instance).
It feels fine, I believe the back width reduction was needed.
I assume I should take width out of the shoulder seam of the fronts as well, but leave the width at middle of scye unchanged?
I assume I should not change the shoulder slope, correct?
Yes, I think the smaller back was needed. Thus it also resembles a "close fitting sloper" a bit more.
To adjust the paper pattern, just shift the outer edge (armhole and sideseam lines, body and yoke) of the back pattern pieces parallely towards the center back for 1cm. just lengthen the armhole line at the shoulder line till it crosses the original shoulder seam line. (it will be just a few millimeters)
To adjust the fronts, just "clip off" the superfluous length (1cm) at the outside of the shoulder seam, and from this new end point blend in the seamline towards the rounded part of the armhole.
I would not be happy with the shape of this neckline. Judging from the side view photographs, it seems to dip quite a bit in the back. Is the piece going to sport a standard collar type, a specially designed collar, or remain collarless?
Goodness lepus, I don't think we've got as far as the neckline yet. :)
Quote from: lepus on May 08, 2016, 05:28:51 AM
I would not be happy with the shape of this neckline. Judging from the side view photographs, it seems to dip quite a bit in the back. Is the piece going to sport a standard collar type, a specially designed collar, or remain collarless?
As a sloper it has no collar, just a plain, representative neck line. I'm sure it could be smoother.
When I make a shirt out of it, I'll be open to style suggestions from the more experienced. Since this thread is pretty long already I expect that will be a separate discussion.
Well jruley its hanging pretty straight now, great!
And another new toile! This one has the narrowed back and higher scyes. First, without sleeves:
(I should note that the chest line is now drawn at the level of the bottom of the right (lower) scye, vs. the left in the last pic set)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpssmxqcpjv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsulgzinlq.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps8hpy9ywh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsl8zs0tfg.jpg)
Now, with sleeves:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f2_zpsasuqgszb.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsnt08yzua.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b2_zpsq3ugbwtn.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsimjixuas.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l2_zpsobkykdwi.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r2_zpsfvozkyaq.jpg)
Jim, it would be best that you showed us the pattern.
You lay front to the back touching at side seam so that the form of the armhole is good to see and the sleeve on top under the armhole.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on May 08, 2016, 05:17:42 PM
Jim, it would be best that you showed us the pattern.
You lay front to the back touching at side seam so that the form of the armhole is good to see and the sleeve on top under the armhole.
lg
posaune
I presume this is what you were looking for?
For this re-draft the armhole and sleeve cap shapes were drawn carefully following the instructions in the pattern book. 1/4" seam allowances have been added.
Side and yoke seams are overlapped 1" to account for the 1/2" seam allowances.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/p_zps5jfk4ssu.jpg)
The sleeve is straight, so it's not surprising it doesn't hang cleanly given the shape of my arms. I wonder if a higher cap would make the shoulder cleaner?
Yes a higher cap will make the sleeve cleaner, but also restricts the sideway movement of the arms.
Let´s try some analytics of your sleeve:
The sleeves are very tight at the back of the upper arms and a lot looser on the front of the upper arms. all pulling and folding lines concentrate to the front of your shoulder bones(bulge) which seems to be their center point. That´s why I think this is the issue point of the sleeve.
My first alteration would be to shift the pitch of the cap line 1-1,5" towards the front( now it´s on the center line). Thus the front cap line would get steeper, the cap would create more room for the shoulder bone/bulge and the material would be shifted more to the back of the arm where it belongs to. The back cap line would get a bit shallower, so the "ridge" in the armhole seam around the yoke seam would get less and follow the body´s form( which is flatter in this area) a bit better.
But I look forward for Posaune`s opinion...
Quote from: peterle on May 09, 2016, 12:57:36 AM
My first alteration would be to shift the pitch of the cap line 1-1,5" towards the front( now it´s on the center line). Thus the front cap line would get steeper, the cap would create more room for the shoulder bone/bulge and the material would be shifted more to the back of the arm where it belongs to. The back cap line would get a bit shallower, so the "ridge" in the armhole seam around the yoke seam would get less and follow the body´s form( which is flatter in this area) a bit better.
For the "normal" balance shown in the pattern book the pitch line is indeed shifted forward, because the back armhole is longer than the front.
So, evidently balance affects the sleeve pitch line placement? This is another subject the book forgot to address - but then it doesn't address balance changes at all!
Since I can't post the copyrighted illustration from the textbook, here's a description of the sleeve draft:
- Draw a vertical construction line (pitch line, as peterle calls it)
- Square out horizontal lines at level of bottom of scye, elbow, and cuff
- Calculate the sleeve cap height. For the close-fitting sloper it is one-third of the armhole circumference minus 1-1/8". Mark this distance up from the scye line.
- Draw diagonal construction lines for the front and back sleeve cap. Their lengths are the front and back armhole lengths, minus 1/4".
- Divide these lines into fourths. Mark out specified amounts of fullness at these locations.
- Sketch in a smooth curve. Check the resulting length vs. front and back armhole lengths and correct as needed. No ease is added.
Is this similar to other shirt sleeve drafts?
well, Peterle, you've got me. I'm a bad sleeve fitter. I hate that.
I agree: The front looks roomy, the back looks tight.
How much is cap height: 1/3 from armhole height (pity, that the yoke is missing)?
What I'm wondering about is the front sleeve's curve. If you look at the bodice pattern the front pattern has a long curve at pit, I can't see this in the sleeve.
When I look at pics without sleeves above I would like to take away about 1 cm length from front armhole and put it in the back armhole. So the sleeve cap would shift to the front too.
Sorry no great help. Will sleep over it.
lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on May 09, 2016, 01:43:27 AM
How much is cap height: 1/3 from armhole height (pity, that the yoke is missing)?
Cap height is 1/3 of armhole minus 1-1/8".
I have replaced the pictures with one including the yoke.
That looks like it comes to about 5 1/2 inch cap height? That is quite tall really.
Not to high. Rundschau takes 12 cm for a tighter shirtsleeve in a man's shirt. That would be 4.73. In lady drafts it's sometimes a litle higher.
I have been thought for lady's: Measure the height of the sleeve hole and sustract 3,5 cm from this (= 1.38 inch). That is your capheight.
But as far as i can recal, this sloper is not a shirt, but a basic from wich you can make clothingpatterns. Maybe this is why the sleevecap is this high. To make it useable for a jacket.
Graham, the sleeve cap is high for a shirt but not for a tighter fitting bodice. (it has about 70% of armhole height)
But look at the armhole:
the back is nearly as high as the front. Look at side seam point: the front armhole seam is longer than the back armhole seam. side seam is gone to back. This is not repeated in the sleeve pattern.
Now look at the first pattern at page 1
here it looks like it should : the front is shorter, side seam is centered, the sleeve matches the armhole curve.
So my assumption about the length of the front versus the back was right (in a way). First we must alter for this otherwise I fear this sleeve draft will not work. But I'm a bad sleeve fitter and please wait till some one better with sleeves will write.
lg
posaune
what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?
The system I use also calculates the cap height from the armhole heigth. But I think that is secondary. Your cap height doesn´t look suspicious to me.
The altered balance( balancing shortens or lengthens the armhole )lines of back and front) is also regarded in your pattern, because the diagonals use the length of the front or back armholes.
But I think you have slight forward shoulders. The average figure pattern fits a shoulder,that´s highest point is at the shoulder seam. At this point the center line of the sleeve is attached to, and that´s why the highest point of the cap is located at his point. But looking at your profil pics it seems to me, your shoulder reaches it´s highest point a bit in front of the shoulder seam (about 3cm). So the sleeve cap has to reach it´s full heigth also a bit earlier.
But keep the vertical line at it´s place. It indicates where the sleeve has to meet the shoulder seam. This won´t change.
To experiment just pull your sleeve cap a bit to the front at the shoulder seam when wearing. You will feel (and see) it, when the cap is in the right position.
Quote from: posaune on May 09, 2016, 01:43:27 AM
well, Peterle, you've got me. I'm a bad sleeve fitter. I hate that.
I hoped fitting sleeves is your most beloved thing...
Quote from: posaune on May 09, 2016, 06:55:23 PM
what happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?
The Page1 shows a pattern without shoulder dart at the yoke seam. the last pattern pic shows the yoke attached to the body piece with closed yoke dart. Placing the yoke with CBs in a line will make the back armhole higher for this inch. So I think we don´t have a problem here. Also the chest line is not straight. it has a kink, that also makes the front shoulder look higher than it is.
Peterle, yupp, the sloper had no shoulder dart. But we added more length for the shoulderblades. Which result was a shoulder dart. When you rotate it to the armhole the length of he armhole will still be there. You just take the rotated amount away as yoke dart.
I agree with the forward shoulders - you see the shoulder knobs pressing to the front and all the other things you mentioned (but only 2 cm - I'm a coward). But maybe you must rotate the whole sleeve a bit too because it is set to deep in.
Lg
posaune
Maybe to draw a grainline from the highest point of sleeve and horizontal line is a good helper.
Thanks everyone for your comments! Responding to a couple of the points that have been made:
QuoteBut as far as i can recal, this sloper is not a shirt, but a basic from wich you can make clothingpatterns. Maybe this is why the sleevecap is this high. To make it useable for a jacket.
Actually the sloper is very close to a shirt, and this cap height is recommended for shirts. Jacket sleeve caps are even higher.
QuoteBut look at the armhole: the back is nearly as high as the front. Look at side seam point: the front armhole seam is longer than the back armhole seam. side seam is gone to back. This is not repeated in the sleeve pattern.
Please review the draft description in post #184. It may be hard to see in the photo, but actually the displacement of the side seam is accounted for in the pattern.
Quotewhat happened to the missing inch from back? When did we loose it?
We lost nothing from the back, but added a total of 1-1/2" (if memory serves correctly) to the front for balance adjustments.
Hopefully this clarifies a few things and the committee can come up with a course of action.
Quote from: jruley on May 08, 2016, 10:08:34 AM
As a sloper it has no collar, just a plain, representative neck line. I'm sure it could be smoother.
If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.
As a bodice sloper it may have no collar, but as such it has no sleeves either. A bodice sloper does however have a neckhole and armholes that must be suitable for the attachment of collars and sleeves, so I don't see a reason to neglect any of those.
Quote from: lepus on May 10, 2016, 03:18:19 AM
If that is the representative neckline of a bodice sloper, it is wrong. Nothing to do with smoother; an optional collar expects a relatively flat surface or opening.
All I can say is I followed the directions in the draft, plus the advice of several forum members that a smaller opening was more appropriate for a shirt.
Those who feel it is "wrong" might make criticism more constructive by presenting an example of one which is "right".
Oh Jim, Lepus is right. The back neck is dipping. and before adding a collar and sleeve the neck - armholes schould be right.
And thank you for clerifying where the 2 cm are.
To your problem: You are right a committee is bad for advising. (I'll try to slap on my hands before writing) Peterle is a good adviser and will lead you through. So do what he wrote, open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
Start with 1 cm to........
(Before I slap on my hands: It could be that you must open all and rotate the side seam point too)
lg
posaune
to write about it makes the progress so slow - so the nerves are strung - in reality
with a few hand intervened, it would be done quickly (this sentence I googled!).
Quote from: posaune on May 10, 2016, 05:59:22 AM
Oh Jim, Lepus is right. The back neck is dipping. and before adding a collar and sleeve the neck - armholes schould be right.
I didn't say he was wrong, and I am truly grateful for everyone's input. However - neither he, nor you, have told me what to do to
fix the neck. Maybe it should be obvious, but do I just raise the back neck height? How much? Or is it more complicated?
Quote
You are right a committee is bad for advising.
I meant no offense, and I'm sorry if any was taken. It's perfectly natural that different people confronted with a problem like this will see different things, and take different approaches. But I can only move in one direction, unless I want to make multiple toiles; so sometimes I just need to be patient and let the group reach consensus.
Quote
to write about it makes the progress so slow - so the nerves are strung - in reality with a few hand intervened, it would be done quickly
It reminds me of reading about the scientists updating software on the Mars rovers. It takes 20 minutes for the commands to go up, and another 20 minutes to get an answer. In our case it's more like 10-12 hours! So, what's most helpful to me is not just a comment (the neckhole is wrong) but some instructions (here's how to fix it). Otherwise I have to ask more questions and we go through another 12 hour cycle.
Now back to the sleeve:
Quote
...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the idea was to move the SP forward, and redraw the curves accordingly?
Not having a clear plan forward, I decided to try a little experiment.
First, for reference, here is the left shoulder "as is":
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zps3auvln2h.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/2_zpsrpjoyyjs.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/3_zpstbfa7z4m.jpg)
It looked to me like there is excess bulk in both front and back, so I tried pinning some of it out:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/4_zpshrlkfheu.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/5_zpso035hyau.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/6_zpsvgc5qf2v.jpg)
It's a long way from perfect, but I think definitely helped. The vertical pull lines would seem to indicate that a higher sleeve cap would fit better; and a higher cap would be narrower, reducing the bulk where I pinned it.
I'm sure professional eyes will see things I missed. I left the pins in place in case anyone wants me to try some adjustments.
It´s hard to say wether this alteration is sufficient. It seems to be mainly cosmetics(wich is a good thing when theright balance is achieved) .
Particular I can´t see the back of the arm. in the older pics there was a severe pulling, let´s say in biceps height. I think this will not be removed by your alteration.
Posaunes tip to rotate the sleeve in the armhole is easy and fast to do and possibly removes all the problems. Especially the left sleeve looks twisted. Try it. In case it doesn´t work, we will try somthing different. I´m sure we will solve this as well although we both hate fitting sleeves.
By the way, "sleeve seam" means armhole seam I think.
Something you should do in any case: the curve of the front armhole and the front curve of the sleeve should be fully congruent from sideseam to about 1" above your first prick. This is important for a clean sleeve.
Regarding the neckhole: I´ve adressed this in post #168. In case you did it then it was not sufficient. The aim is to get the back neckhole running horizontal when worn. It seems it dips now for circa 1-1,5 cm in center back. just let your wife draw a new back neck line on the toile when you wear it. in the pattern the back neckhole will just be shallower.
Quote from: peterle on May 10, 2016, 07:08:48 PM
Posaunes tip to rotate the sleeve in the armhole is easy and fast to do and possibly removes all the problems. Especially the left sleeve looks twisted. Try it. In case it doesn´t work, we will try somthing different. I´m sure we will solve this as well although we both hate fitting sleeves. By the way, "sleeve seam" means armhole seam I think.
Posaune wrote:
Quote...open the upper 2/3 of the sleeve seam and rotate the SP into the back and look how the sleeve hangs now.
This would have left the bottom 1/3 of the "sleeve" (i.e. armhole) seam attached. So, just to be clear, you are saying to rip the whole seam and rotate the sleeve in the armhole?
Quote
Regarding the neckhole: I´ve adressed this in post #168. In case you did it then it was not sufficient.
Post #168 reads:
QuoteI also think you should clip the left front neckhole 2/3 from the shoulderseam down.
When you redraw the neckline, keep the old, higher line in center back and smooth in to the new lines at the shoulder seam.
I interpreted that as an alteration to the front neckhole (which I haven't done yet) with no change to the back.
Your new instructions are clear:
Quote
The aim is to get the back neckhole running horizontal when worn. It seems it dips now for circa 1-1,5 cm in center back. just let your wife draw a new back neck line on the toile when you wear it. in the pattern the back neckhole will just be shallower.
Quote
Something you should do in any case: the curve of the front armhole and the front curve of the sleeve should be fully congruent from sideseam to about 1" above your first prick. This is important for a clean sleeve.
I will check this once I try rotating the sleeve in the armhole.
I´ve done both. Sometimes only rotating succeeds, sometimes redistributing only 2/3 of the cap succeed. Try the 2/3 first, when not succeeding redo the rest as well.
Neckhole: that´s the problem with words, ambiguous. Posaune and I wanted you to clip just the front neck hole originaly in post #151 and152. The back neck was ok then. Clipping made it to deep.
Clip to the neckline.
Rotating only part of the sleeve is not possible because there is no ease in the cap. So, I ripped the left sleeve loose, then had my wife pin the top of the cap where it seemed to want to be. I noted this position and pinned the sleeve smoothly into the armhole, then sewed, shifting all the pitch points 1/2".
Here is the result. Compare to the right sleeve, which was not altered.
This seems to have helped, but there are still vertical pull lines indicating shortness in the cap.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps9f4chc0g.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpswijvnux5.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsceeyk09r.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsrbmk1q0p.jpg)
Since peterle has the left sleeve, so to speak, I thought I might borrow the right to test a higher and narrower cap. Here is the altered pattern sitting on top of the existing one. The cap height has been increased about 3/4" (total length remains the same), and the width reduced about 1/2" on each side:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/s_c_zpskcg12z0l.jpg)
After a first trial I decided to rotate this sleeve in the armhole similar to the left one. I also reshaped the upper back side of the cap slightly.
Here is the result - original sleeve cap on left side, and the new on on the right:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsngmcw240.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsm4rbt8le.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsl3zx0cbr.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsw3n44ghb.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpszb84oiwz.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsyx8om7xk.jpg)
JIm, take at look at this article:
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5750112-fitting-sleeves
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5781382-fitting-sleeves-continued
http://inhousepatterns.com/blogs/news/5803901-fitting-sleeves-ease
I think that covers your problem quite well.
lg
posaune
lg
posaune
Thanks Posaune for these pics. They exactly illustrate my approach in Post#183.
I look forward seeing the impacts of this alteration to a long sleeve.
Jim. I prefer the tighter version of the sleeve. It has a better proportional harmony to the width of the shirt.
Thanks posaune and peterle. Just to confirm I understand:
- start with the new sleeve (narrower, higher cap)
- shift the cap line forward as shown in posaune's links. 1 - 1,5 cm was recommended in post #183.
Questions:
- Do you think it will still be necessary to rotate the sleeve in the armhole or will the alteration take care of this?
I drafted a new pattern using the tall narrow cap and shifting the pitch line forward 5/8". No ease was added and the sleeve was not rotated in the armhole.
The redrafted sleeve was put on the left side; yesterday's alterations remain on the right. The back neckhole has also been filled in to start determining the proper collar seam position.
I would say the new sleeve feels like the fullness is better placed, but also feels tight. Rotating it in the armhole may help, but here is the first try:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsrm86tdal.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpszi20elya.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsz9obshzl.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zps2awnm2sc.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps3nosu3md.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpseaztqaho.jpg)
The back neckhole has been sewn across (to prevent stretching) and clipped.
The new left sleeve has been rotated forward 1/2" in the armhole.
I'm out of ideas at this point, but I also wonder how much more improvement is possible?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpss7jtpsil.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zps2qulkzs1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps8qhti7jv.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsyulmgfdt.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsvqx5cn2p.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsypyisfwn.jpg)
Ok, just wanted to post two times, but you where faster each time.
Please clip the SA of the center back. It pulls and disturbes the balance.
Ease will certainly help to cover that shoulder bone. measure the armhole line and the cap line with the tape measure standing on it´s edge. the cap shloud be longer for about 3cm. The ease should be distributed around the thight area of the shoulder bone.
Try to rotate the sleeve.
Can you please post the new pattern?
Here is a comparison. Old sleeve on left, new on right:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zpsqsywy4zs.jpg)
Here the new sleeve lies on top of the old one:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/2_zps24ohwafu.jpg)
Quote from: peterle on May 12, 2016, 02:01:44 AM
Ease will certainly help to cover that shoulder bone. measure the armhole line and the cap line with the tape measure standing on it´s edge. the cap shloud be longer for about 3cm. The ease should be distributed around the thight area of the shoulder bone.
Ease could be a problem for many shirt fabrics. Instead of adding ease, would it be better to increase to width of shoulder tip slightly?
I see some problems in your cap curve:
The cap seems very narrow and pointy in it´s top. make the upper front side curve a bit fuller. You can shift the turning point of the front S-curve a bit downwards if necessary. The whole front S curve will be a bit steeper.
The low end of the back curve is to full. here you can shift the S-curve turning point nearly 1" upwards, and increase the distance between the bow and the diagonal.
Did You measure the cap and scye lines?
Quote from: peterle on May 12, 2016, 04:39:44 AM
Did You measure the cap and scye lines?
Yes. The fullness was distributed according to the method given in the drafting book. Then the seams were "walked" to check the lengths and locate the pitch marks.
QuoteThe cap seems very narrow and pointy in it´s top. make the upper front side curve a bit fuller. You can shift the turning point of the front S-curve a bit downwards if necessary. The whole front S curve will be a bit steeper.
I understand this part.
QuoteThe low end of the back curve is to full. here you can shift the S-curve turning point nearly 1" upwards, and increase the distance between the bow and the diagonal.
I don't understand this at all. Do you have a diagram, or another draft I could follow?
Once again, do you think I need to add ease? Or would it be better to make the shoulder ends a trifle wider?
Quote from: jruley on May 12, 2016, 06:29:16 AM
Once again, do you think I need to add ease? Or would it be better to make the shoulder ends a trifle wider?
That will likely just cause little divots.
Quote from: Henry Hall on May 12, 2016, 07:21:19 AM
That will likely just cause little divots.
The ease, or the width?
What is a divot? The dictionary says it´s a piece of lawn (what doubtlessly would be a unique fashion statement).
Making the shoulders wider will only help in a very small amount. We are at the edge of the shoulder yet. Maybe 1cm outwards would help a bit. Fade in to the old lines approx. 2-3 inch from the shoulder seam.
But first I want you to try something different: the toile hangs on the shoulder bone at the moment. To distribute the weight to the whole shoulder draw a line on your toile parallely to the shoulder seam about 1-1,5 inch towards the front.
This line is the center line of a fish formed dart. Sew this dart taking out not more than 3/8 inch, fading to nothing towards the neck and to the armhole. The widest part of the dart should be a bit nearer to the neck than to the armhole.
This alteration brings your concave shoulder to the pattern, in the finished shirt pattern it will be your new front yoke seam.
I don't understand this at all. Do you have a diagram, or another draft I could follow?
Sorry, no pics.
Transfer your cap base line to the backside of your paper pattern. Lay down the sleeve pattern on your back pattern, cap line and chest line matching, endpoints meeting at the side seam. Now you will see that the lower part of the sleeve curve "cuts off" the armhole curve of the back. It is invisible.
This is wrong. the sleeve curve has to run between the armhole curve and the chest line. It has to be shallower than the armhole in this area. Otherwise the surplus sleeve fabric will bunch up and form ugly folds. So You have to scoop out the sleeve curve in this area.
Quote from: peterle on May 12, 2016, 08:20:42 PM
What is a divot? The dictionary says it´s a piece of lawn (what doubtlessly would be a unique fashion statement).
When a golfer takes too deep of a swing, he cuts out a piece of turf along with the ball. Properly the word "divot" refers to this piece of turf, but it is sometimes used to mean the resulting dent in the ground.
So what I think Henry meant is that if I make the shoulders too wide, they will tend to collapse, with little depressions (dents or "divots") forming behind the scye seam.
I believe I understand the rest of your instructions and will try them as soon as I can.
Here is the front shoulder dart marked in chalk on the inside of the right shoulder of the toile:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zps0bqrlpxr.jpg)
Here is the new sleeve head pattern. Old on left, new on right; then new sitting on top of old:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/2_zpss5i8semc.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/3_zpsbqfuknxm.jpg)
Jim, you are doing fine this sleeve pattern looks better the front sleeve is steeper now
But keep in mind: This is NO shirt pattern anymore.
In my opion it is better to have ease in this sleeve cap: 3-4 cm (and this is not much and you can ease it in).
Because the armhole seam runs over the prominent shoulder bone now and after this comes the rounded top of the arm. To get over this rounded area and straight down to the elbow you ease in the cap seam at certain places. So the fullness of fabric is released over the rounded top arm but sits tight at the armhole.
In a real shirt pattern this is not important because the shoulder seam is longer and the sleeve does not reach into this area.
I hope I have found the right word to explain this.
lg
posaune
Could you please show us the armhole and lay the sleeve pattern so that we can compare the front curve to front curve.
Here is the new sleeve head between the front and back patterns. I was careful to match the curves as you can see:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/4_zps5hb1xtao.jpg)
I will cut the actual sleeve head with some inlay, and mark the curve of the pattern with a line of stitching. If ease is necessary it can be let out in certain areas.
Here the right side has been altered with the transverse front dart and the new sleeve. New sleeve was rotated forward like the last one. Left side remains the same as in post #208.
The front dart was obviously successful.
1" of inlay was allowed beyond the 1/4" seam allowance all round the sleeve head, so there is room to make some adjustments.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsjzujrb3l.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsdlzutyf5.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsaclfbzxe.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpspofvrj5s.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpssb4swlgw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsyyylfjud.jpg)
Could you please post the pattern pieces with the sleeve flipped over? We need a pic of the front, the sleeve lying on top, chest and cap line matching, sleeve seam end point and sides seam end point meeting.
Same for the back please.
And can you mark the crossing point of the cap line and the vertical sleeve line on the toile?
Why did you rotate the sleeve forward? Did you rotate it in a way the highest notch is more at the front? I hoped the cap alteration with a fuller front area will fit the shoulder bone without rotation.
You will ot even notice a bit of ease when sewing, but it will help to cover this shoulder bone bulge.
Here are the pics with the sleeve flipped over. Top of the metal ruler is the chest line:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/5_zpsrxgxyqf5.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/6_zpsbqpwlcpv.jpg)
I cannot mark lines on the toile without taking it apart, but will do so in future.
I rotated the sleeve forward because that was required for every previous alteration. Direction of rotation was "cuff forward" to accomodate the forward stance of my arms. This is counterclockwise if we are looking at the right shoulder.
There is no ease in this draft yet.
The lower front armhole curve could be scooped ot a bit more. It yet cuts off the armhole curve of the front.
I would love to see a version with the sleeve set in unrotated. Side seam and sleeve seam meeting, vertical line of ths sleeve meeting the shoulder seam. (I know, I know, don´t hate me; maybe it helps to call it practicing). Don´t care for the cuffs at the moment. A tight one seam sleeve without darts will always wrinkle in the crook of the arm.
Quote from: peterle on May 14, 2016, 02:03:20 AM
I would love to see a version with the sleeve set in unrotated. Side seam and sleeve seam meeting, vertical line of ths sleeve meeting the shoulder seam. (I know, I know, don´t hate me; maybe it helps to call it practicing).
Here is what peterle requested:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsvo4mwy2t.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsuq3jjkpw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsvrzwmqzw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsdd5unju4.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsww5fvgrm.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsigbvhd5a.jpg)
Posaune is right, this sleeve is too tight around the biceps to be of practical use for a shirt.
Either ease must be added, or we need to return to a lower cap height which will allow more bicep room.
I await the master's directions...
With no comments posted I decided to return to the lower sleeve cap height for more bicep room. I brought the fullness more to the front as in the last alteration:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/p_zpsbhauxh6t.jpg)
The new sleeve was put on the left side, and the left shoulder was altered with the transverse dart from post #221. The right side remains the same as in post #225.
The new sleeve feels much better than the last one.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsijlojr7h.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpser3kiccg.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpswpuah0rq.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpscxna6oap.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsosx8qugj.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsaoomobt8.jpg)
sorry, haven´t seen your last post.
Yes the lower cap and wider sleeve fits better. But the center line is yet pulling to the back, the front is too wide and the back is too tight.
so we gonna change this.
Copy your new sleeve pattern. transfer all lines.
Fold the front sleeve seam line inwards, so it meets the vertical center line of the sleeve. reopen.
Fold the back sleeve seam line inwards, so it meets the vertical center line. reopen.
These folding lines will now be slashed from hem upwards to the elbow line and from the cap downwards to the elbow line.
The little spots on the elbow line will be left unslashed. Theses are the hingepoints.
Now pivot the front portion in a way, that it overlaps the middle portion for 1" at the cap base line. At the hem a gap will form. Secure with some tape.
Now pivot the back portion in a way, that a gap of 1" forms at the cap base line. This will create an overlap at the hem. Secure with tape.
now smooth the cap line by keeping the line of the middle portion and smoothing it in to the front and to the back curves. ( this will cut off the tip at the back portion and will need a bit of filling at the front line).
This is your new sleeve pattern. Sleeve seam and side seam will not meet at the moment, but we can change this, when the sleeve fits.
I want to make sure I understood this before cutting muslin, so here is the change laid out on paper. Old lines are black, new lines are red. Fold lines are dashed, you fold from the black to the red.
I am not sure how to blend the cap curve. You said the alteration would cut off the tip of the back and need filling at the front. It looks like the reverse to me - did I overlap the wrong way?
Also, do I follow the red lines below the elbow line? If so, won't this skewing of the seams make the sleeve twist?
If I follow the red lines, do I need to re-mark the construction lines? How?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/new_zps3oytucrd.jpg)
it´s right how you did it.( the lower is the front, isn´t it).
when you draw the whole cap line of the back, it will form a tip with the red fold line. a part of this tip will be cut off when the cap is redrawn.
You don´t have to redo the construction lines. Just connect the lower back curve and the center part curve with a tangential (diagonal) line.
At the front place the fat end of the french curve downwards, cupped by the red curve and blend the line into the black one. The lower front curve will get a bit more curvy.
Here is the new pattern completed so you can see how I faired the cap curve together:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zpspobph0i3.jpg)
This pattern is not usable "as-is". As you can see, if you try to match the sleeve seams the ends don't line up. If you forced the ends to match the sleeve would be twisted:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/2_zps63eqiw88.jpg)
So I combined the new sleeve cap with the body of the current sleeve, below the cap line:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/3_zpsg2lqohtq.jpg)
The resulting sleeve was cut and sewn into the right armhole. The sleeve from post #226 remains in the left armhole:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsgm1o64b1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsd1fspoqc.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpscgjglslf.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsqbir7ahq.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsemobmoa9.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zps8nqupntd.jpg)
Both sleeves have the seams aligned with the body at present. Should I try rotating them?
Well, it was a mistake to combine the patterns.
It was meant to twist. The most important effect of this alteration was that the front seam point and back seam point change it´s relative position.
When you fold it the right way (sleeve seam lines meeting at the center line, cap end points meeting), it will not twist, only the fold lines will change.
Oh, I forgot:
You should have copied the hemlines of the pivoted pieces also. so the sleeve seam lengths would stay the same. the wobbly hem line can be straightend by just connecting the seam end points.
To get a better understanding for myself I have done a drawing
(http://s32.postimg.org/f2chkur7l/sleevealapeterle.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/f2chkur7l/)
Is this right?
lg
posaune
Yes, exactly, thank you Posaune.
But my slashes would not be strictly vertical, they would be slanted, because I fold the sleeve like with sewn seam.
I chose the elbow line as pivot points to shift some wideness from the back of the wrist to the front.
Aha "....................to shift some wideness from the back of the wrist to the front."
how cool, now I understood the action.
lg
posaune
So: It's just as well I didn't throw the draft away :).
I added a piece at the hem, and corrected the lengths of the seams so they agree:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/1_zpskj9ckyjv.jpg)
Here is the resulting sleeve in the right armhole. I am not sure where the grain line should be, so cut it parallel to the old centerline. Likewise I do not know where the cap line, elbow line, cuff line and centerline are meant to be, so did not mark them:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps6z2eky2f.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsf1lk1e5z.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsap4tzket.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zps5uqmjc37.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsch7r4idw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpskx7fos5c.jpg)
With both this sleeve and the last one (post #230 ), I feel some pressure on the tip of the shoulder bone. This does not occur with the sleeve from post #226 (still in place in left armhole).
How did you set in the sleeve? do the shoulder seam and the center line notch at the cap meet?
Quote from: peterle on May 20, 2016, 01:36:17 AM
How did you set in the sleeve? do the shoulder seam and the center line notch at the cap meet?
I was not sure what should be aligned, so I matched the sleeve seam to the side seam.
It seems to me that the centerline has to be re-located after the seams are skewed. So is it in the same place at the sleeve cap?
Can you explain how the new cap line, elbow line and cuff line should be located after the alteration? They can hardly be in the same place since the cap is tilted.
As I wrote, the sleeve seam and the side seam will not match after the alteration, because it shifted for about 1".
Please transfer the crossing point of the cap line and the existing center line of the paper pattern to the toile. this is the "peak notch" of the cap and has to be placed at the shoulder seam.
You can also transfer the hole existing center line to the sleeve. It makes it easier to see the impact of the alteration and where the issues are. The center line must not be relocated. It´s our line of reference and the rest of the sleeve get´s rearranged relatively to this line.
Please mark the shoulder seams as well. They hardly can be seen on the pics.
The horizontal lines can be reestablished by just connecting the cap end points, elbow points and seam end points. They will not be in a rigtht angle to the center line anymore.
With all this attaching and detaching of sleeves, perhaps it's an opportune moment to warn, in particular those who read this thread to pick up tips and are not yet desperate, that armholes are in danger of being stretched and losing their expected shape and size as a result of those operations, depending on type of fabric and so on. Surely this issue will have been addressed in this particular sample, but I couldn't find a mention. As I will be receiving surly remarks if I don't offer instant remedies, let me just mention two out of a range of possible measures:
- run a chainstitch around the armhole
- stitch or fuse a narrow tape (bridle tape) in place
BTW, this is also used to process leftover ease in the armhole that can't be distributed anywhere else.
Here I have marked the pattern with the new cap, elbow, and cuff lines in red:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/a_zpsx61upbji.jpg)
Right sleeve was taken out, taken apart, marked, re-sewn, and re-installed with the construction line aligned with the shoulder seam. Left sleeve remains the same as in post #226:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zps6y7r5ubh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsv86rvejz.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsczu11gqm.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsyxf3je5k.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpssjvzoyn1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsncpko5hz.jpg)
How does it feel now? It defenitely looks more relaxed.
But before we continue with the sleeve (I have to think how to get rid of the diagonal fold in the front and we have to do some cap line cosmetics), there is another issue:
Since post 207 the balance is off. It´s the filled back neck hole, it´s not deep enough. Please clip it so the toile can hang balanced.
The sleeve feels better now.
Are you sure it's the back neckhole? Compare #202 (no fill in back) with #208 (neckhole filled and clipped). Both seem to show length is needed in the front above the chest line. This was not evident before the sleeves were added (compare #180.) Are the sleeves affecting the balance?
I've also noticed in the last few changes the back centerline is skewed more to the right. Not sure what (if anything) should be done about it.
In Post 202 the balance seems to be ok, (at least the left side). In Post 208 the balance is off. The back chest line is so much deeper till then.
Is the curved hardly visible line below the stay stich in the back neck hole the old neckhole? If yes, the new neckhole is about 2cm if not 3cm higher. That´s too much. I think you could deepen/clip the back neckhole about 1cm.
Back neckline has been lowered 3/8" per request.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsrtgqhz70.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fs_zpsrezwwqla.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpslt6f2jqr.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bs_zpsdqjfzjle.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsij21zsot.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsqlpedjmp.jpg)
Thank you.
THat did not help tremendousely. I don´t really know where we lost the balance. It was ok in 202 and is off since then.
Comparing 202 and 208 I now see what the mistake is: the shoulder seam points at the neck are pulled back a lot in 208. This disturbes the balance. Please recheck how this could happen.
The other alteration we did was the across shoulder dart, maybe that takes too much of the front balance. Just remove it or make it half as long so it starts at the neck and ends at the half of the shoulder. It should be shallower as well.
I decided to "separate the variables" by removing the sleeves. This should take us all the way back to post #180. It looks like the balance has indeed changed:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsxe2e2yyx.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps6axt81lu.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps00hxwo1i.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpst0stzz12.jpg)
Maybe I was sloppy in filling the back neckhole and gathered some material causing shortness. Maybe the transverse shoulder dart is contributing as well. Either way, I think the answer is a new yoke piece, cut longer in front so we can account for the transverse dart. But I will wait for the teacher's direction. :).
yes, I think so too.
A new yoke would be fine. I hope the good fit before filling the neck hole wasn´t due to a stretched neckhole.
The warp threads really should run vertical for long lasting. The line down the back, if this is following the warp, is in error. It really shouldn't be on bias.
That's right, Greger.
But it is the case here, if you look through all the pics you'll see, it is so that on some pics it is so but not on others. Some times left hangs - sometimes right. This time the sloperis high on the left side , see front view - how high it climbs above the neck line. You think the center back would swing to the left - but in back view (see left side is hanging) we see it swings to the right.
This is the real difficulty in this case.
lg
posaune
Quote from: Greger on May 24, 2016, 02:47:48 AM
The warp threads really should run vertical for long lasting. The line down the back, if this is following the warp, is in error. It really shouldn't be on bias.
Since post #130 the back centerline and side seams have been skewed to the right 3/4" from top to bottom. So the back is not "square" any more. In other words the angle between the chest and waist lines and the centerline is not a right angle.
So, when I cut the material for a real shirt - should I place the back centerline on the grain? Or make the grain perpendicular to the chest and waist lines?
We have drawn the center back slanted to accomodate the shifted hip. This slanted center line is just a construction line.
The grain should run perpendicular to the chest/waist/hem line. When using stripes, the center stripe should run through the center point at the yoke.
Quote from: peterle on May 24, 2016, 07:44:01 AM
We have drawn the center back slanted to accomodate the shifted hip. This slanted center line is just a construction line.
The grain should run perpendicular to the chest/waist/hem line. When using stripes, the center stripe should run through the center point at the yoke.
Thanks -- you're up late tonight!
Yoke has been removed and replaced with a new one featuring the raised back neck and the forward extension. The toile seems to be back in balance.
Shall I reattach the sleeves or are changes needed?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpswgzwt2ad.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpseu72dxdh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsdh8zpfjr.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpss8vrme5d.jpg)
Please mark the (old )shoulders seam line. We need it as a reference line, and we need it to attach the sleeves.
Did you change the front yoke seam, former dart? It ends a lot more towards the front than before. Please reassure you didn´t shorten the front with the new seam, because the front balance seems to be shorter/ too short at the moment. (diagonal folds starting at the nipples).
Quote from: peterle on May 24, 2016, 07:32:29 PM
Did you change the front yoke seam, former dart? It ends a lot more towards the front than before. Please reassure you didn´t shorten the front with the new seam, because the front balance seems to be shorter/ too short at the moment. (diagonal folds starting at the nipples).
I did not change the front yoke seam, but I think I know what you are seeing.
I was unable to let out the transverse dart, so had to cut off the upper fronts and add pieces. You are seeing this seam, which won't be there on a real shirt.
The front balance may be a little shorter because of the effect of the dart. I will let out 3/8" on the upper front and mark both the shoulder seam and front dart seam.
Here with 3/8" more length in front. The black lines mark the old shoulder seam, and the new front yoke seam:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsdqhak8wd.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsoy7psqu1.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsn1r6cdln.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsn0qiu4re.jpg)
I dont´want to be picky, but the balance isn´t ok yet. The front is too short. (did you eventually make the back balance longer with the new yoke?)
When you attach a piece of fabric, it´s wise to follow the grain with the new piece.
Is there a reason the right shoulder line is longer than the left? Or does it just seem so on the pic?
Quote from: peterle on May 24, 2016, 11:22:43 PM
I dont´want to be picky, but the balance isn´t ok yet. The front is too short. (did you eventually make the back balance longer with the new yoke?)
No, you're right. I only added length to the front of scye, without changing the side seams. This has pushed the shoulder seam back from where it belongs. To fix the balance I need to drop the front relative to the back.
Quote
Is there a reason the right shoulder line is longer than the left? Or does it just seem so on the pic?
It's not on purpose, so will have to check.
Here the front was dropped 3/8" on the side seams of the back. Chest and waist lines are now horizontal on the left. On the right, not so much.
Maybe lepus' point (post #240) is valid and the toile has gone out of shape after all the sleeve work. Also, I did not pre-shrink the muslin before cutting the pieces out, since I was not expecting this many changes.
The right shoulder line (old seam line) is indeed longer than the left, about 1/4" Not sure how that crept in.
I'm wondering if this toile is no longer trustworthy, and I should make a new one, with more attention to fabric care?
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsjjkxjwti.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsgr4wcylm.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zpsnc5j3g6k.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsxbn0xq6q.jpg)
First: Ironing the toile following the grain and cross grain will restore the original form if distorted. Preshrinking is not necessary, you won´t wash the toile, and the steam iron hardly will shrink the heavy cotton. you can check the distortion by laying on the paper pattern pieces.
Quote from: jruley on May 25, 2016, 02:19:26 AM
Here the front was dropped 3/8" on the side seams of the back. Chest and waist lines are now horizontal on the left. On the right, not so much.
Dropping the front makes the front balance shorter relatively to the back, not longer. Where did you add length in post 256?
Just to make it clear:
when I say front balance, I mean the vertical distance between the front chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neckhole.
When I say back balance I mean the vertical distance between the back chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neck hole.
Maybe your back balance is longer than before because you mixed up sewing line and sewing allowance line? please compare this measurement in toile and pattern.
Quote from: peterle on May 25, 2016, 06:55:02 PM
First: Ironing the toile following the grain and cross grain will restore the original form if distorted. Preshrinking is not necessary, you won´t wash the toile, and the steam iron hardly will shrink the heavy cotton. you can check the distortion by laying on the paper pattern pieces.
Maybe you have better material to work with than me; the cheap muslin I have is quite thin.
I took the toile apart and pressed it with a steam iron. Comparing the pattern pieces there is a little distortion around the neck and arm holes of the fronts, but the back has been skewed significantly:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zps7bxfzhiw.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpsihojc0ir.jpg)
So this one goes in the trash.
Quote from: peterle on May 25, 2016, 06:55:02 PM
Dropping the front makes the front balance shorter relatively to the back, not longer. Where did you add length in post 256?
Just to make it clear:
when I say front balance, I mean the vertical distance between the front chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neckhole.
When I say back balance I mean the vertical distance between the back chest line and the crossing point of the shoulder seam and the neck hole.
When I added length, I sewed the yoke on 3/8" higher on the fronts. This effectively added 3/8" to the front balance.
When I dropped the front 3/8", you are correct, this essentially removed the length I had just added. The only remaining effect (other than deeper armholes in front) was to drop the front of the neck 3/8".
Quote
Maybe your back balance is longer than before because you mixed up sewing line and sewing allowance line? please compare this measurement in toile and pattern.
The new yoke was sewn in the same position as the old one, so this is not the problem.
Here is a new toile, fabric pre-shrunk this time. Same pattern as post #253, with shoulder lengths equalized. The back hangs much better now, and it seems to be back in balance:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_zpszkciymsc.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_zpsio7yufwh.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_zps45cnitml.jpg)
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_zpsuqmkgjul.jpg)
Unless someone thinks changes are needed to the body fit, I think this is a good place to end this thread. The goal of a sloper that fits the body has been pretty much achieved.
What I would like to do now is alter the sloper to make a "torso line" fitted shirt. Something like post #12 of this thread:
http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=4397&hl=%2Btorso+%2Bline#entry46231
Since this is no longer a "sloper" per se, I will open a new thread when I am ready to start.
The sleeve from post #241 will probably make a good starting point. However, I expect there will be no such thing as a "universal" sleeve draft. They will all require tweaking based on the shape of the body, so it makes sense to continue that discussion in the new thread.
Thanks again to all those who contributed!
Yes, this looks much better.
Meanwhile I have looked on your arms a little closer. The right arm is the one with the some issues, so I would like you to continue with the sleeve on the left side. (Your right elbow goes backwards and outwards , your left doesn t).
Quote from: peterle on May 26, 2016, 05:30:00 AM
Meanwhile I have looked on your arms a little closer. The right arm is the one with the some issues, so I would like you to continue with the sleeve on the left side. (Your right elbow goes backwards and outwards , your left doesn t).
We can continue the sleeves with the new thread:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=316.0
But first I want to get the new body right.
Quote from: Henry Hall on May 29, 2016, 11:20:38 PM
Quote from: lepus on May 29, 2016, 04:41:13 AMWhere the waistline exactly is, is insignificant until waist shaping is introduced, as the sloper describes just a straight tube.
This is absurd. And it probably speaks of the failure of drafting in this way. Knowing the waistline height is important for proportioning the garment pattern. Unless one is drafting a collection of potato sacks. For a fitted garment the back waist can be taken to the body contour anyway (or a depression measure taken if that sort of fit is required). There are two other books: How to Draft Patterns by Donald McCunn, and the Winifred Aldrich book, both which follow the similar creation of a standard block to be spun out into other patterns. Both of them consider waist locations throughout.
It's no wonder people are walking around dazed in circles wondering why drafting and fitting is 'too hard'. It's falsely made to look overly-hard by overblown nonsense. You see this a lot in those post-1900 drafting books where academically frustrated authors dress up fairly simple ideas as advanced trigonometry.
It seems to me there is not much merit in carving a toothpick out of a two-ton block of oak, which is the sort of methodology this particular 'sloper' rendered into other garments seems to want to pursue.
I have to agree with lepus here. Since the side seams of the sloper are straight, moving the marked "waist" line up or down will not change the fit one iota. So long as the seams are straight, this line only serves as an indication of balance.
Once waist shaping begins, of course the natural waist must be located. There is certainly no harm in locating it from the beginning, and I probably should have done a better job of tracking it as the garment went through alterations for balance. However, the resulting fit is the same as long as the seams are straight.