Bespoke Cutter And Tailor

I thought I might be able to develop a personal jacket pattern by fitting a toile.  (Hint to new readers:  Save yourself time by jumping ahead to this conclusion):

QuoteA tip for this and future projects: It is nearly impossible to fit one self.

But this is still the "Wild Enthusiasm" stage.  So we continue:


Starting point was the 1970 T&C "Modern Suit Jacket" using dimensions for my RTW size of 42R. 

Author's comment:  No personal measurements?  What could possibly go wrong? :)

After trying on the first mockup (not shown) I made a few changes:

- Reduced back width at shoulder 1/2"

- Changed major vertical balance 1/2" (upper back 1/4" longer, shoulder piece in front 1/4" shorter)

- "Slightly Corpulent" adjustment from the 1923 MTOC applied to the lower front, reflecting the fact that my waist measure is 40 and not 38.  Basically, I straightened the front below the upper button, and spread the pocket dart open a bit more to avoid adding too much length at the bottom edge.

The second mockup is shown below.  First four pictures are unbuttoned, next four buttoned.  Edges have not been pressed back so the lapels are 3/8" wider than finished, and the bottom is 1-1/4" longer.

To my untrained eye it seems to hang well, but I wonder if I should reduce the skirt?

I would like to know if more experienced eyes see any big issues before I attach the sleeves.


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_u_zpsrpy1i86g.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_u_zpscuo1utyg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_u_zpsmbsq5rar.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_u_zpsfkfyllsz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/f_b_zpsigzr40kh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/b_b_zpsrcndwbuo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_b_zpszgkvqxut.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/r_b_zpsyl15vzxl.jpg)

I'll start while I'm here.... low right shoulder. The immediate visual giveaways are the button, bottom of lapel and darts are visibly out of alignment. Buttoning the coat shows the lapel lifting and curving on that side.

Oh, it is not only the right hanging side. I assume the posture is in that way, that the lower body is pushed into front. So the slightly corpulent draft maybe not enough. The back skirt is too full because of that. The bust could have some more fabric. It looks tight.  I suppose you will sew in a nice  interfacing  and a plack to give the bust more fullness.  The shoulder seam is much in the back  - unusual  in a draft of the 70 th.  The CF is too long compared to the side seam - take up at Neckpoint front shoulder - or release the pocket dart (donelon wedge??). The back armhole gapes - could maybe be ironed in.
But wait for Terri. I'm not a man's tailor.
lg
posaune

Thank you Henry.  Like many people, I hate to admit that I'm asymmetrical; but it's pretty obvious from the photos.

The simplest correction for this sort of thing I found in the literature was to shorten the shoulder piece on the low side while leaving the back alone.  I guesstimated 1/2" and moved the shoulder seam on the right side accordingly.  The right lapel will need to be shortened a corresponding amount and the right scye will need to be deepened, but those can wait for the present.

Here's how it looks with this correction.  I think Henry was right, it looks much more even now.

Thanks Posaune for your comments as well.  I'll wait for Terri before making more changes.


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb2_zpsz6vftnr0.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb2_zpsqt49kkqh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb2_zpsaorprjz1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb2_zpswjaxmjtg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu2_zpsrqmv5e4c.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bu2_zpszrsogq0y.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lu2_zpssujx7ozq.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ru2_zpstadewwfb.jpg)

Do take note of what Posaune said about the front being long. Examine your last photo above.

Also, for a fitting check pop in any shoulder padding you plan to use. You don't want to alter it then find it has another problem when the pads are in.

I remain bothered by the diagonal folds on both sides, in the area of the chest.

From the scye down to centre front, top button.

Maybe that is what posaune meant would be helped by a nice canvas installed. but is there really enough width in the chest?

G

Shoulderpads? Your jacket should have a pad, if only a thin one because most drafts allow for it. It also helps to give support to the silhouette.
I am a fan of basting hems up and edges in for fittings. I am also a fan of some support in the fronts of a toile to mimic the intended structure, whether it is a second layer of muslin or some fusible.
Remove the button.
Mark the intended centre front line on both sides of the jacket.
Pin the front closed where it sits easily, dont force it. If it doesn't close on the line, (or at all without pulling) then mark the point where it does close. It looks like you will need moreat the chest level.

Look at the back. Something odd is happening in the hang of the cb. Do you want it to fit closer to the body? But deal with the fronts first.
The fronts hem doesn't look excessively long in relation to the back hem bit you definitely have a drape of excess fabricgoing on and the hang of the fronts is angling outwards. Pin out excess across horizontally just below the level of the break point and see if that helps straighten up the fronts, and brings some of the excess fabric in the skirt forward.

I think looking at the rundschau drafts for figures with fullness in the front waist would be useful for you. They have very good methods to determine how much to allow at the waist and also the location of the neck point in those drafts.

Post a picture of your pattern.

Here is the pattern.  I accented some of the primary construction lines with a marker so they showed up distinctly in the photo.  The background is a cutting mat with a 1" grid.  Be careful of optical illusions since I had to zoom out to a fairly wide angle to get everything in one frame:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Pattern_zpsln1fencs.jpg)

(Before someone asks, this pink stuff is from a huge roll of shelf paper given to me by a neighbor.  It's dimensionally stable and free!)

The mockup material is actually canvas drill, not muslin, so there is some stiffness and body.

The button was placed as indicated in the draft.  The center front line was not specified.

The back seam is almost straight as shown, so it's not too surprising the coat does not fit close to the back at the waist.  Maybe taking this in would help shape the skirt better?

I will make up shoulder pads and turn the edges to their finished positions tomorrow.  Maybe by then someone will have spotted a glaring defect in the pattern.

Thanks again everyone for your help!

Will you post the other half of the pattern as well?
These drafts often do not give you a precise CF location so I would calculate it by marking off the seam allowance on the front edge and then decide for yourself how much button overlap you need at the top button, so I usually choose 3/4".
Lets say on your pattern the CF line runs parallel then to the front through the second button.

As for the fit of the back, its your jacket so you get to decide if you want shaping and how much or how little. It is just something to think about.

Have to go will check in later, after work.

looking at your pattern it seems to me that your front shoulder is a very crooked. this makes the lapel fold line very long.
The effect is, the fronts gape towards the hem and the hem folds over like a godet in the side part. I´m sure the waistline of the pattern, when transfered to the toile, would form a significant V.
To try out wether this is the right theory, just pin away a horizontal wedge about 2" above the chestline of the fronts. the wedge should have about 2cm at the center front and fade out to 0 at the armhole.


two possibilities to alter:
-Work in the lapel fold line heavily with the iron and secure with a ribbon ( wich must be done in every case) to keep this line short. The front armholes of the toile will stay tight.
- reposition the shoulder line in the pattern. the new neckpoint should be a bit more to the right towards the center front. In this case the front armholes would loosen up a little. This has to be the method when working with fabric that does not take ironwork well like cotton or linnen.

Another tip: The closing button is usually more or less at the waistline, yours is 2" above. positioning the button is important for the proportions of a coat.

Peterle, I agree absolutley with you and Terri. The neckpoint is to wide out. So CF is too long in the upper part. Take out a wedge at the center of  lapelheight and if now to short open the draft for a wegde under the waist for lost length.
The front armhole l would prefare a bit more curved.
lg
posaune
(When you raise at shoulder you bring the neck point more to the center too and get rid of the length, quick and dirty)

I am loving this. Wonderful learning experience for improving my eye.

So, a question please to all:

Am I looking at this incorrectly? The blue shirt, to me, seems to indicate that the shoulder point is 3/4"- 1" forward on both sides. Would a forward shoulder adjustment be called for?

Here are today's changes:

I took in the center back 1/2" at the waist line, sloping off to nothing at the shoulder line and bottom.  This put some shape into the back, and helped a lot with the skirt issues at the sides.

To reduce the length of the roll line I angled the shoulder seam to shorten the  fronts 1/2" at neck point , with no change at the shoulder.

I turned up the hem to its finished length and the lapels to finished width.

I added shoulder pads.

Here are the new photos:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb3_zpsgu53f1cy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb3_zps7squ4bs1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb3_zpszfkycy24.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb3_zps6ksuadns.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu3_zpsbjffnf7p.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bu3_zpswnzvaxxt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lu3_zps743ac0ok.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ru3_zpsiexmtxve.jpg)

To me the jacket looks better buttoned, but is really collapsing when unbuttoned, especially on the right side.  Maybe it's the crooked shoulder?  I tried adjusting for that by sliding the fronts outwards at the shoulder seam, but it made the collar pull away at the sides of the neck.  I'm sure there are ways of correcting that, so I may re-do it and show the results.

OK, here it is with the fronts straightened.  The only change from the last set of photos is to slide both fronts outward along the shoulder seams 1/2".  I found my mistake in attaching the collar so it does not pull away from the neck.


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb4_zps86rfylgf.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb4_zpsu1suqa6m.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb4_zpscuzoqhhj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb4_zpsdo5ykrgm.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu4_zpsxya8fcjw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bu4_zpspequvbjg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lu4_zps3wgafmbv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ru4_zps2xvvuc3y.jpg)

Enough alterations have accumulated that I think my next step will be a new pattern incorporating them.  This will also let me show Terri both halves  :)


I might also extend the center front line to account for the amount taken out of the back

The back looks much better now.

I think the fronts did not really improve. They are yet gaping. The edges of a good fitting coat hang parallel even unbuttoned.
The  front armholes are really tight now because of the pads. The pads should be placed more to the back I think.

I think your neckpoint is a lot too far out. When you lengthen your dartline you will see the neck point is positioned nearly 2" behind this line. It should be placed roughly on  or even in front of this line. (Look up your T&C pattern for reference. Is it this one? http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=949 (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=949)).
Parallel shift your shoulderseam towards the center front, and reconnect this new points to the armhole and neckhole in a smooth line. Thus your front parts can hang from a more central point.

Hello peterle,

You are absolutely right!  If you notice, point 28 in the draft (from which you square up to find the neck point) is "1/6 scale plus 3/4" from the front sleeve pitch (point 23).  Checking my draft, I either read the 1/12 scale by mistake, or subtracted 3/4 instead of adding.  Either way, my neck point is about 1-1/2 inches out of position, so no wonder there are some problems!

I remember being surprised when point 41 (end of lapel) came out very narrow.  After scratching my head for awhile, I assumed the "3-1/2 or whatever style demands" was not working for my size for some reason.  Should have realized what the math was trying to tell me!

I will draft a new forepart with the neck point in the correct location, plus moving the center front out 1/2" to allow for the amount I took in the back.

BTW I realize now that the wedge you suggested pinning out would have both shortened the roll line and straightened the shoulder.  What I spent a couple of hours doing, un-doing and re-doing could have been accomplished in 15 minutes.  I guess I need to stop over-thinking and follow directions :).

I need to learn to scroll horizontally, then I would have seen that you posted the whole pattern! On my ipad only the lower half shows.

 ;)

Yes, sad to say scaled patterns and iPad's are not the best combination.

Here are the new patterns. 

Here is the upper part of the fronts,  with new on top and old on the bottom.  The dropped shoulder adjustment is shown, with red for left and green for right:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/patterns_zpsps6cgxnv.jpg)

Here is the whole new pattern.  Back is the same for both sides, with the right sidebody scooped out as shown.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/new%20pattern_zpsiviavkt7.jpg)

Terri:  When you said "other half" I thought you meant the right and left differences.

Here's the new mockup with the neck point straightened.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb5_zpsymhiptbz.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb5_zpss1tgxhdy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb5_zps0hinrlor.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb5_zpsb3wgrver.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fu5_zps2cnjxayh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bu5_zpsmfwwss4k.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lu5_zpsz5p3yw5t.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/ru5_zpsuyzew6uz.jpg)

I think the lowerpart of the front is a bit full. You could take out a litte bit there.
I hope posting a image works. Else, some one off you good people might help?
http://s201.photobucket.com/user/Satorarepo/media/New/New%202/CPG_Morris_Corupulent002.jpg.html

Posting the image did not work. The url is there. Hope it explanes what you could do.
It would give a cleaner look i think.

Like this ?

On Photobucket, click the magnifying glass with the + in it to see the image. Right click on it to get your browser's menu them select the option to copy the web address of the image.

Paste that web address into the edit window, select the complete line then click the button under the "B" button. After you save the post it should look like this.

(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa284/Satorarepo/New/New%202/CPG_Morris_Corupulent002.jpg~original)

Thank you so much Hutch.

The first pictures I like the most, though with a few changes. The straight back reminds me of the early sixties.  Go watch Peter Gunn's TV show.

The last group of pictures shows the fronts to long. Plus, both buttons are to be buttoned. The lapel roll and length can be adjusted at the collar. Since the belly is out there, not much, but a little, the front needs to be extended there and the don lon wedge to shorten the bottom edge. The back hem length is to long.

Instead of buttoning closed perhaps it would be best to pin the fronts, at both button points and get both foreparts vertical, to be able to asses it properly.

When looking at the black zig zag seams at the pocket line, i have a question:

The pattern is meant to close the horizontal wedge  at the pocket line that starts at the chest dart. Your seams indicate you just patched a piece underneath and didn´t close the wedge? Point 56 and 57 have to meet in the sewn front. This will clean a bit of the hem line.

To pin the fronts according Henry´s tip: the vertical line 24-25-26 is the front center line of the pattern. Transfer this line to the toile and pin the fronts with this lines on top of the other.

Not closing the donlon wedge would explain the fullnes in the front

Quote from: peterle on March 19, 2016, 10:45:23 PM
When looking at the black zig zag seams at the pocket line, i have a question:

The pattern is meant to close the horizontal wedge  at the pocket line that starts at the chest dart. Your seams indicate you just patched a piece underneath and didn´t close the wedge? Point 56 and 57 have to meet in the sewn front. This will clean a bit of the hem line.

No, I closed the wedge.  What I actually did (quick and dirty for the mockup) was slit the material from point 55 to the front of the dart.  After sewing the dart, I overlapped the cut edge until it met the line from 57 to the front of the dart.  I zigzag stitched over both raw edges.
This has the same effect as cutting out the wedge and is stronger.  Of course when I make the jacket I will cut out the wedge and bring the edges together with some interfacing underneath to support the pocket welt seams.

QuoteTo pin the fronts according Henry´s tip: the vertical line 24-25-26 is the front center line of the pattern. Transfer this line to the toile and pin the fronts with this lines on top of the other.

The ends of the buttonholes lie on this line, so I will sew on a lower button and open the lower hole.  This will be a more consistent mark than trying to pin the mockup closed while I am wearing it.

OK, here we are with both buttons buttoned on the CF line:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb6_zpsnyvqamjg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb6_zpsbhkr0vpu.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb6_zpsbh8ipx74.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb6_zpscvczwkap.jpg)

The skirt looks smoother and the bottom edge is more horizontal.  However, the collar is now pulling away from the neck, especially on the left side.
I had my wife pin the front overlap tighter, removing the extra width I added at the last change.  I hoped this might pull the lapel closer to the neck, but all it did was tighten the waist a bit.  Since I took the pictures here they are for comparison:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb7_zpshhc0ign9.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb7_zps44hnbkcy.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb7_zps1vjcmkji.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb7_zpsmphikhyu.jpg)

(http://www.mediafire.com/view/f3aaabdtfsmn6yy/hangingside.png)
Sorry to say, I see no much progress. There must have something happened to the draft when going for a slightly corpulence. The back is better, but it requires maybe a bit length 1//8" now in my opinion (shoulder blades) which will help the front too.
The hanging side: I would do the back the same, otherwise what about the sleeve and now you have folds  near collar there. And it maybe that your hanging side give you a narrower side as we can see at right side.
But I'm no tailor for gents
lg
posaune
I just see you have new pics. And you have a wife, hurrah. Now let her pin one pin at the back at CB under your shirt collar. Rip the collar. Open one shoulder seam. Now maybe she can try to rotate or manipulate the front pattern so that the front will fall straight. It maybe that she must open the side seam a bit or take a wedge out in front.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/f3aaabdtfsmn6yy/hangingside.png

Now I´m sure: please recheck the width of your back neck hole. It always seemed very large in my eyes, and in the new pics it´s obvious.

A smaller back neckhole will also bring the front neckpoints (keep them as they are) closer to the neck. This would explain some of the issues.

Quote from: peterle on March 20, 2016, 01:59:44 AM
Now I´m sure: please recheck the width of your back neck hole. It always seemed very large in my eyes, and in the new pics it´s obvious.

A smaller back neckhole will also bring the front neckpoints (keep them as they are) closer to the neck. This would explain some of the issues.

Point 10 from 0 (top of back construction line) is 1/6 of the scale plus 1/2".  Re-checking my draft it's a little too wide, but no more than 1/8".  It's possible I read 21 on my scale (the half chest) instead of 20 (the scale for 42 chest size).

I understand there are collar issues which can also cause this.  I did not draft a new collar after straightening the front, so the shape is probably wrong now. I propose to remove the collar and send photos with the plain neck line.  I'm wondering if I need a little more crooked shoulder than the draft calls for, or apparently crooked (relative to the wide back neck) - but the photos should tell the tale.

In a Rundschau pattern the back neck width would be 8,3cm = 3,27". No seam allowances included. This is 1/2" smaller. Maybe that´s why it looks wide for me.

Comparing the different patterns the Rundschau neckhole is also less high so has to be less wide naturally. So your wide looking neckhole is not the problem.

I think the Rundschau neck is actually wider.  For my scale value of 20 I get:

(1/6) * 20 + 0.5 = 3.8333

This includes two 3/8" seams, so the net width is:

3.8333 - 0.75 = 3.083, or a little more than 3-1/16"

I am about to try removing the collar to see what that tells us.

OK, I took off the collar.  It may have contributed, but I think the main issue is the roll line is too long.  When the coat is buttoned, the roll line bows upward, stands off the chest and pushes the collar away from the neck:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb7_zps1gmywebv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb7_zpsnetvinpi.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb7_zps86exms2p.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb7_zps8lpdp4r5.jpg)

After pinning a horizontal wedge across the chest looked promising, I sewed a horizontal dart across the upper chest, tapering from 3/8" (half width) at the lapel edge to nothing at the side seam.  This was initially suggested by peterle before the neck point was straightened.  This has pulled the lapels closer to the chest:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb9_zps2xzlmczj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb9_zpsknhmpmos.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb9_zpsxybhb4jk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb9_zpsdrmu6r2p.jpg)

I think my next step should be to make new fronts taking out this wedge.  This has raised the buttoning point, so I think I will move the buttons down until the lower button is level with the pockets.  Then draft a new collar accounting for the changes in the roll line.

Please let me know if anyone has other changes or suggestions.  Thanks again for your help.

Two more changes.

After reading a bit more about corrections for dropped shoulder, I decided to try something similar to what Posaune posted.  A wedge was sewn out of the upper right back at shoulder level, tapering from 1/4" (half width) at the scye to nothing at CB.  This cleaned up a lot of the wrinkling below the right arm.  Still not perfect, but more symmetrical with the left side.

By itself, this alteration pulled the collar away from the right side of the neck.  Reading the alterations instructions carefully, they called for crookening the right shoulder, not just dropping the seam down vertically as I had done.  So, I took out the shoulder seam and moved the front 1/2" inboard relative to the back.  This brought the roll line back against the neck.

The combined effects are shown in the following pictures:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb10_zpsqvnndpzc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb10_zpszoifzeo6.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb10_zpseyx5k97l.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb10_zpsfv6jsauv.jpg)

Does anyone have any other suggestions before I capture these changes in a new pattern? 

Thanks,

Jim R.

This one looks a lot better Jim, front is much tidier.

In case anyone is wondering this thread is my reference for dropped shoulder corrections:

http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1241&hl=%2Bdropped+%2Bshoulder (http://www.cutterandtailor.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1241&hl=%2Bdropped+%2Bshoulder)

I started with the New Mitchell System correction (post #6) because it was so simple.  Unfortunately it didn't seem to work well in my case.

I took the idea for the back wedge and crookening of shoulder from Whife's discussion (post #9).  Haven't made the slight changes to the side seam yet but plan to try them in the new pattern.

Here is the new pattern, showing the combined effects of taking out the wedges described yesterday.   Per Whife's instructions for a dropped shoulder, I have also allowed a bit more room on the right side of the skirt to allow for a larger hip on the "down" side.

I have added 1/2" extra length to the turn-up to allow for adjustments to the hem to make it appear level.  Also added an overlap for a center back vent.  I was thinking about side vents, but with the asymmetrical skirt it might be a nightmare to make them hang evenly.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/new_zpsh9vk4mwv.jpg)

The wedge in the back on the right side resulted in a prominent "dowager hump" on my upper back.  A slight bump was actually there already, but this really made it stand out.

I tried straightening the seam in the affected area, which cleaned up the hump.  However, left lapel started gaping again, and pulling away from the side of my neck. 

Rather than play with the shoulder seam to correct this, I decided to try a different way of taking the wedge out of the back, shown as a 1959 Rundschau method in the Cutter and Tailor forum references for dropped shoulder.  This puts the pivot for the wedge at the top of CB seam, so does not affect curvature of it.

The resulting pattern change is shown here (figure on left replaces right).  After the first try-on, I also flattened the upper back slightly as shown - about 1/8".

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/new_back_zpsog1g2cqy.jpg)

I patched in a piece of fabric (note to self:  INLAYS!  INLAYS!) and recut the right back.  Here's how the resulting mockup looks:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb1_zpshjchhtfp.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb1_zpsrx2bxuvr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb1_zpsezg836q1.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb1_zpsvrcz5hl9.jpg)

There is just a little wrinkling at the shoulders and back of neck, and below the shoulder blades.  Is this telling me the back is too long?  If so, can I shorten it without popping up the lapels again?

Progress!

The second drop shoulder alteration is much better I think.

I notice two other things in the back:
First thing is the slight diagonal folds from the lower edge of your shoulder blades towards the Waistline/ sideseam.
I think this is caused by a slightly too short back balance , and probably could be removed by adding a horizontal stripe of 1-1,5cm across the hole back somewhere in the middle of the armholes.
The second thing is that the right fold is shorter than the left. it seems the fabric can´t move freely there at the waistline and the hole back is pulled a bit towards the right. Your back seam seems to be slanted to the right. I think this is caused by missing width for the high hip. You added some width to the skirt from waistline downwards, but I think you need the additional width a bit higher (at the love handles, or whatever this region is called appropriately).

Regarding the wrinkling at the back neck: without collar the back neckhole stretches tremendousely. you should recheck it, iron it to the former shape and secure it with a row of stay-stitching at the final sewing line. Sometimes these wrinkles are caused by an unclipped wide sewing allowance that prevents the neckhole in taking it´s proper position.

Thanks Henry and peterle!  I will tape the back neck and make some experiments with the back as suggested.

Thanks,

Jim

Rory Duffy has his videos. One of them he talks about uneven shoulders. Another he adjusts balance until the hem is level. Uneven shoulders are not all the same. The other video he certainly understands his pattern. This can also be done by using a row of stitches at waist level (easier than getting on ones knees :D).

First, I checked the neck seam to see if it had stretched significantly.  It hadn't, but I stayed it with a piece of tape anyway.

Next I tried peterle's suggested adjustments to the back.  Rather than piece in an actual strip of material, I ripped out the seam, and passed the back up on the side body.  I tried moving it 3/8" (1 cm) and 3/4" (2 cm).   Neither case cleaned up the lower back.  Also the top of back wrinkled and the lapels began to be loose.  So I don't think it's simply a balance problem.

Here is the smaller amount:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb2_zpswrdv2kyg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb2_zpsuf2tzsqb.jpg)

[IMGhttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb2_zps73plnego.jpg]http://[/img]

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb2_zpszcuoo4qz.jpg)

And the larger:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb3_zpsg0yyrmsv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb3_zpsvkykc9he.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb3_zpsik3aa490.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb3_zpsjvtbzyjk.jpg)

Next, I tried displacing the head of the side bodies backwards.  This is mentioned in several sources as beneficial for diagonal drags, at least in certain cases.  The canvas drill in my mockup will take moderate ironwork, so I stretched the side seam as shown below (red underneath is the pattern piece):

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/Stretched_zpsvt7khjgj.jpg)

Here the streched sidebodies are pinned back into the coat.  Not the "magic bullet" I had hoped for, but it does change the nature of the problem:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb4_zpscptvabvb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb4_zpsdut4nwla.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb4_zpsn8q8gxmx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb4_zpskknxburp.jpg)

Here I decided to try to clean up the left-right asymmetry in the back by taking a little out of the upper part of the side body.  This was suggested by Whife's dropped shoulder correction but I had neglected it.  It seems to have helped the back.  I don't think the pulling away of the collar on the left is real; I must have put the coat on sloppily.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb5_zpscy0ouwnv.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb5_zpsgyghtwyj.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb5_zpsnp91bs3f.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb5_zpsexwjk8ys.jpg)

Finally, I tried adjusting balance again by moving the front up and down at the front of the side body.  After a number of attempts the alteration shown seemed to give the best result:
- front moved down 3/8"
- 3/8" pinned horizontally out of the upper back, to keep it from wrinkling.


(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb6_zpsjlogsiur.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb6_zpsqjeigem5.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb6_zpswapdy75l.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb6_zpsq1cviss1.jpg)

Those front part diagonal creases are much better in the last 2 sets of images it looks more balanced too.

I think you are changing way too many things too much.
I am going to talk about the first set of changes, passing the back up 1 cm.
You gain that amount right across the back, but you don't need it at the armhole, so you can either increase the shoulder padding slightly to take up the excess, or dart out some or all of the excess and transfer the dart to the shoulder, in other words it increases the amount you need to ease the back shoulder in.

Second thing is the back neck.
How big is your actual neck?
Using the formula based on the chest scale looks too wide. You could try 1/6 of the working scale, or go even smaller.

You need to pinch out a vertical dart below the pocket/ donlon wedge to remove the fluting in the front skirt area.

Your first set of pics of today: the back has lost it´s diagonal folds completely. so I don´t understand why you don´t feel so . the back has got more "closure" to the hole back, it follows the spine better, you actually can see the hollowing of the backseam in the profil pics. That is, what we wanted to achieve. 

The back neck: Is the black line the sewing line? If so, it is creeping up the neck. The first and most important step in fitting a garment is to position the backseam/ neckhole crosspoint exactly on the 7th vertebra, the protruding point. everything starts here measuering and fitting. So always make sure this point is positioned right when wearing! some of your pic sets are not truthworthy for fitting, because the neckhole isn´t positioned correctly.

Lowering the front parts: lowering the fronts meens to increase the back balance(wich is simply the length of the back between neckhole and chestline). so lowering the fronts and removing the so won back length by pinning away across the back sums up to a +/-0 effect.

Side body alteration: You just stretched the front sideseam. How did you manage to attach the now too long sidseam to the fronts? I think this alteration is meant to be done differentely: you should just iron the piece above the waisline in a manner that it just gets more slanted. No stretching of the seams , just shifting the armhole line parallely towards the back by keeping the waisline in it´s position. The front armhole point must not get higher.

Quote from: peterle on March 22, 2016, 10:44:56 PM
The back neck: Is the black line the sewing line? If so, it is creeping up the neck. The first and most important step in fitting a garment is to position the backseam/ neckhole crosspoint exactly on the 7th vertebra, the protruding point. everything starts here measuering and fitting. So always make sure this point is positioned right when wearing! some of your pic sets are not truthworthy for fitting, because the neckhole isn´t positioned correctly.

Perhaps that's because, as Terri already noted, it is too wide. Plus, it's not easy to take photos of yourself and see if a seam is out of place when it's 180 degrees in the other direction. ;)

QuoteThose front part diagonal creases are much better in the last 2 sets of images it looks more balanced too.

These two have a little more pinned out of the upper part of the right sidebody.  If you look the back seam is now straight. 

QuoteI am going to talk about the first set of changes, passing the back up 1 cm.
You gain that amount right across the back, but you don't need it at the armhole, so you can either increase the shoulder padding slightly to take up the excess, or dart out some or all of the excess and transfer the dart to the shoulder, in other words it increases the amount you need to ease the back shoulder in.

So, in essence I need to adjust the shoulder slope, either by taking the ends of the seams down in the back or thicker pads?

QuoteSide body alteration: You just stretched the front sideseam. How did you manage to attach the now too long sidseam to the fronts? I think this alteration is meant to be done differentely: you should just iron the piece above the waisline in a manner that it just gets more slanted. No stretching of the seams , just shifting the armhole line parallely towards the back by keeping the waisline in it´s position. The front armhole point must not get higher.

I kept the waistline in the same position, and pinned the seam together smoothly, so yes the front part of the side body was now too high.  I figured if the alteration worked the scye could be recut.  The books talked about shifting the armhole line as you said, but said stretching was an alternative and it was quicker to use the iron than cut new side body pieces.

Quote

The back neck: Is the black line the sewing line? If so, it is creeping up the neck. The first and most important step in fitting a garment is to position the backseam/ neckhole crosspoint exactly on the 7th vertebra, the protruding point. everything starts here measuering and fitting. So always make sure this point is positioned right when wearing! some of your pic sets are not truthworthy for fitting, because the neckhole isn´t positioned correctly.

Yes, the black line of stitches is attaching the tape to the back neck.  This creeping up the neck is my big problem with moving the back up.  The collar would be too high and the upper back is starting to wrinkle.

Quotesome of your pic sets are not truthworthy for fitting, because the neckhole isn´t positioned correctly...Plus, it's not easy to take photos of yourself and see if a seam is out of place when it's 180 degrees in the other direction.

Correct.  I am using a camera on a tripod, about 15 feet away from where I stand to pose.  After hitting the self-timer button I have 10 seconds to get in position.  All I can do is try to be more careful.

Quote from: jruley on March 22, 2016, 11:49:35 PM
...Correct.  I am using a camera on a tripod, about 15 feet away from where I stand to pose.  After hitting the self-timer button I have 10 seconds to get in position.  All I can do is try to be more careful.

I'm not qualified to comment on your toile jacket but I am used to photography, so just on a technical note: you're correct in using a tripod but you really need to use some kind of manual release for the shutter, if my glamorous assistant isn't available a IR release/zapper is my choice.  There is no way you will be able to get back to your mark, adjust your toile and be calm all within 10 seconds, you have to be set before releasing the shutter.  It's also goo to have a mirror or reflective surface in your eye-line so you can check your pose.

tom.

I have a cable release (still used to calling it that from the film camera days) but it's only about 3 feet long.  Don't know if my camera (Nikon d5100) will accept any kind of remote release.

Maybe I can get the wife to use the cable release, that might help...

I didn´t want to sound harsh and didn´t want to critizise, just wanted to point out that judging the fit of the garment isn´t possible without it beeing worn right. Undoubtfully it´s hard to photograph oneself properly. The wrinkles of the upper back/neck look different in each picture set, it is hard to distinguish wether  the pattern or the wearing causes the issues.



So, in essence I need to adjust the shoulder slope, either by taking the ends of the seams down in the back or thicker pads?

No, it´s done like the back in this pic:

(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/ohnebuumlste2_zpsxq6wjhnu.jpg)

This increases the back balance over the shoulder blades, but not at the armholes. Thus the armholes get closer to the body.
This will make the back shoulder seam a bit longer than the front seam. This additional width will usually be eased in, not sewn as a dart.




Yes, the black line of stitches is attaching the tape to the back neck.  This creeping up the neck is my big problem with moving the back up.  The collar would be too high and the upper back is starting to wrinkle.

Will the black line be the finished sewingline for the collar? The finished sewing line(3/8" SA inwards) has to be positioned at the right place when wearing.
Increasing the back balance doesn´t move up the collar, it moves down the armhole line so don´t worry about this. The back neckpoint always stays on the same spot.

Quote from: peterle on March 23, 2016, 02:52:14 AM
I didn´t want to sound harsh and didn´t want to critizise, just wanted to point out that judging the fit of the garment isn´t possible without it beeing worn right. Undoubtfully it´s hard to photograph oneself properly. The wrinkles of the upper back/neck look different in each picture set, it is hard to distinguish wether  the pattern or the wearing causes the issues.

No, you're absolutely right; if I don't put on the jacket consistently the photos are worthless.

QuoteNo, it´s done like the back in this pic:

That looks like it would increase the length of the shoulder seam, so what do you do about that?

QuoteWill the black line be the finished sewingline for the collar? The finished sewing line(3/8" SA inwards) has to be positioned at the right place when wearing.
Increasing the back balance doesn´t move up the collar, it moves down the armhole line so don´t worry about this. The back neckpoint always stays on the same spot.

Close, but not quite; the black line is roughly in the center of the 1/2" tape so it's only 1/4" from the edge.

Thanks,

Jim

Today's progress:

QuoteI think you are changing way too many things too much.

I took this comment to heart, and un-did all of yesterday's changes.  I cut new side body pieces since the ironwork on the old ones was not reversible.  Here they are:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/side_inlays_zpsl6wrpb6d.jpg)

I left an inlay in case displacing the head of the sidebody backward was called for.

Taking a "bite" out of the upper part of the right sidebody had been promising yesterday, so I marked a chalk line for that as shown.
What followed was a series of small changes.  I didn't take pictures but will describe each step:
- Taking out of the top of side body made the back look more symmetrical, but not enough.  So I took  a deeper "bite".
- This really helped the lower back, but now there was a diagonal drag from the right shoulder blade curving under the arm.  The right lapel came loose and pulled away from the side of the neck.
- I tried moving the front shoulder out to bring the crease line back.  This helped the front, but not the drag in the back.
- I took a horizontal wedge out of the back, using the seam line you can see where I patched in the new upper back section.  From nothing at CB to 3/8" (half width) at the scye.  This pretty much killed the drag and enabled me to bring the shoulder seam back together without the lapel pulling away from the collar.
- Took in the front seam on the left side body, below the pocket line, to reduce the vertical fluting Terri pointed out in the front skirt.

My wife took the following pictures:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb7_zps8jvwzzs7.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb7_zps7h4cprgw.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb7_zpsoj0esycb.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb7_zpsjc8ikhrf.jpg)

The right pocket looks higher because I have not lowered the right front on the side body yet, having lost 3/4" length due to the new back wedge.  That should make the front and back hems come level.  I'll clean that up but don't expect it to make much difference (famous last words!)

I think what the new back wedge is telling me is that my initial dropped shoulder correction was in the right direction, but not enough.

-

QuoteTook in the front seam on the left side body, below the pocket line, to reduce the vertical fluting Terri pointed out in the front skirt.

Ahh well that is not the place to take it out. What you want to do is pin it out in a vertical dart near the front of the hip pocket, this is later transferred on the pattern into the horizontal pocket dart, in other words the horizontal dart increases in size. It has to come out there not on the side panel seam.

QuoteSo, in essence I need to adjust the shoulder slope, either by taking the ends of the seams down in the back or thicker pads?

Do not just adjust the shoulder slope.
Thicker pads will take up some of the excess in the back armhole for sure.
You need to know how your final fabric will behave. How much ease can you ease in on the back shoulder line? That will indicate how much of what you pinch out of the armhole can be transferred to the shoulder.

It si similar to what I described above. Dart manipulation, think of the pattern not just as a front and back plane but as somehting that accomodates three dimensions and compound shapes as it covers the body.

A little more progress:

I lowered the right front into position on the side body so the scye curve could be uniformly lowered.   Here is the result.  I don't see significant differences from the last set, but the pocket line is more horizontal:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb8_zpsno3hiyfg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb8_zpslsfwia2l.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb8_zpsdolzvxbg.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb8_zpsebrmvjej.jpg)

Here are the changes resulting from today's tuning.  As you can see the right scye has now been lowered a full inch relative to the left on the back.  I never would have guessed I was that lopsided!

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/newbits_zpsrietdilk.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/newall_zps7zotulyw.jpg)

Quote from: TTailor on March 23, 2016, 10:06:08 AM
-

QuoteTook in the front seam on the left side body, below the pocket line, to reduce the vertical fluting Terri pointed out in the front skirt.

Ahh well that is not the place to take it out. What you want to do is pin it out in a vertical dart near the front of the hip pocket, this is later transferred on the pattern into the horizontal pocket dart, in other words the horizontal dart increases in size. It has to come out there not on the side panel seam.

I was trying to keep both fronts the same, at least above the top button.  Looking at the new pictures closely, I suspect you are right :).

QuoteDo not just adjust the shoulder slope.
Thicker pads will take up some of the excess in the back armhole for sure.
You need to know how your final fabric will behave. How much ease can you ease in on the back shoulder line? That will indicate how much of what you pinch out of the armhole can be transferred to the shoulder.

It si similar to what I described above. Dart manipulation, think of the pattern not just as a front and back plane but as somehting that accomodates three dimensions and compound shapes as it covers the body.

I am going to cut new backs, based on my new pattern but with inlays at the neck and shoulder seam.  That will leave room for alterations and lengthening.

The final fabric is a wool suiting, but I'm not sure I can smoothly ease more excess length than the back already has.

Thanks,

Jim

I´m loosing the thread...

You overdid the sloped shoulder alteration. Looking on the back picture, there is a hollow at the top of the back seam. Pushing the CBneckpoint into the right position(downwards) will make it more obvious. I´m sure there would be a more or less horizontal fold. You can see it beginning to form in the profil pic ca 2" below the neckhole.

Maybe you should pin the toile to the shirt at center back neck point before putting it on? Thus it would be always in the right position.

Quote from: peterle on March 23, 2016, 10:50:36 PM
I´m loosing the thread...

You overdid the sloped shoulder alteration. Looking on the back picture, there is a hollow at the top of the back seam. Pushing the CBneckpoint into the right position(downwards) will make it more obvious. I´m sure there would be a more or less horizontal fold. You can see it beginning to form in the profil pic ca 2" below the neckhole.

Maybe I have a basic misunderstanding here.  You say the neck seam must always be in the proper position.  I agree that's where it must be when the coat is fitted.  But when you put the coat on, the arms go through the scyes.  They can't go anywhere else.  So if the scyes are reasonably tight, won't the collar seam just go wherever it wants to?  There is nothing at the neck to restrain it.

Let me put it another way.  Coats are usually (my impression anyway) cut with inlays above the neck seam.  After final adjustments are made, this extra length is trimmed away.  Is it wrong to apply the same principle to this mockup?  Once the upper back is looking good (not to say it is yet), why can't I just cut any extra length away to match the ends of the shoulder seams?

QuoteMaybe you should pin the toile to the shirt at center back neck point before putting it on? Thus it would be always in the right position.

That's an interesting idea, but the material in this mockup is stiff enough that I think it would just pull the shirt up higher on my back.

Given the excessive shoulder slope, I can think of three adjustments to try next:

- raise outer ends of shoulders

- lower neck end of shoulders

- take a narrow wedge out of the CB seam all way down to the waist.  This would reduce the back neck width and also reduce the shoulder slope.

Yes this is a basic misunderstanding.
The CB neckpoint is the only point on a body, that can be identified precisely. It is the protruding 7th vertebra. It is the only reliable reference point. Here we start measuring, here we start drawing, here we start fitting. All the rest of the jacket, each point of the pattern has to be put in the right  position relatively to this point.
For fitting this means the only thing we know is, this point of the garment has to sit on exactly this point of the body. That´s why we pin it there. Everything else is unsure and has to be adapted when not fitting.

Given that the shoulders are now too sloping, and the back neck is too wide for me, I wonder if just taking a small wedge out at CB might solve both problems?

A vertical dart along the back seam would make a rounded back seam. this would tend to cause a hollow bulge. It wouldn´t change the slope. But just try it and see the effect.

Quote from: peterle on March 24, 2016, 12:14:47 AM
Given that the shoulders are now too sloping, and the back neck is too wide for me, I wonder if just taking a small wedge out at CB might solve both problems?

A vertical dart along the back seam would make a rounded back seam. this would tend to cause a hollow bulge. It wouldn´t change the slope. But just try it and see the effect.

Quite right; I won't embarrass myself by showing the pictures :).

OK.  I cut out new backs with fitting inlays as described above.  After confirming the fit hadn't changed, I reduced the shoulder slope by letting the outer ends of the seams come forward 3/4" on the back.

The coat fits down on the shoulders now, and the collar seam (just below the white tape in the photos) seems to be in the right place.




(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb1_zpsvwrqvwvt.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb1_zpslghpf6et.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb1_zpsfd4ka7oo.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb1_zpsmrt3vwop.jpg)

I got the remaining wrinkles out of the upper back by pinning out a horizontal wedge as shown.  Passed the back up on the side bodies an equal amount (1/2") to keep the coat in balance.

It remains to clean up the back.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb4_zpsrwmqgxlc.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb4_zpsjdeih8d7.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb4_zpstn2nnn9c.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb4_zpsytjgg4ic.jpg)

Until the much more experienced people come here, here are my 2 cents.

It is difficult to see it exactly without stitching the wedge and ironing it, but in my opinion the change brought few problems I am seeing. In the following picture, I am using the more pronounced side:

You did "steal" some length from the front part . If you go with it, you have to give some of it back one way or another. The seam needs needs to be changed - perhaps not as much as shown, some length should come back there, it is bit too tight in my eyes - this is the black line in the picture.

As for the wrinkles shown by the blue lines. In the front part, even if you do the previous correction (giving some length back), you are now missing part of the armhole and should get the initial shape back. The shape of the armhole in the back needs to be checked too, there is similar problem there. I think this is the case, not too much seam allowance tightening the armhole too much (in such case, clipping it would help). I would need to see the shape hidden under the arm. If you simply moved the side part down, the armhole would have awkward shape there. Without the re-positioning, there would be simply not enough space to get the arm through and the problem would be obvious. Now, it is just a bit too tight. You can see it in the front view, not repeated here.


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/WKUrwBPWtHXXHN3ybI4szan1q3Phwchc-UQkMBtCS1A_hXD6clHz3JRzSiXIfVcEI1wLH60NvUO_rW9UOscf18wU4kxSFPbgDYFYH8Ozb8ULXDW2ZlvF_PS3q5iFkkKgraYsvwKKf4HiQLv2PSurrMxcq03FlFA8XWOQ3gfjEazz7xIhFr6RQ7QMMiBNQwX9IPyZx1-cloVwPtRAw7k3fWZxfi4Xb-wfGxV2H66rlXr9NN7h6tzuq2XoGZMPAbKTk5UPgYMXYUr8Ku2_mMqrrANIO3cn05R7MoqfXluna3gHCtY9Wp3-lUV1VAfjDTMiuibXX9XMmEwl6B8Mgqy0-HZ9-SV9Gp1havP2XRGcjH6hdmARYWUXQcwv6qBpplTRVjUTMiWskIiqcUsLmKbYeHNB81H0zERlhxThTxvpFq95ZK4leoBwd-tQ2eR6kBaQrdnBdguV_cO_IyZaRxXav-VRdJA6lQFbaOaQxcDhRE03rSev_R2jWIVG1qCOiilh2vmlPQSlMn_xjiDHTJi_8oWJz9139NvYmdahQWFpX7rR5G_ZhA1kRcmnlWVNB1yCOykG1A=w683-h481-no)

I think the shortened back is not good. the back seam gets pulled upwards and makes the hole lower back swing away from the body.

So i refer to the post #66 pics:
the fold in the upper back could be caused by the pinned pads. The fold start where you pinned the pads at the shoulder seam. The left pad is crunched in the pics. Remove the pins at the back armhole.
It looks like you have only altered the shoulder seam in the outer half? it should be done over the hole length.

Your back seam is always drifting to the right at the hem. I think your high hip pulls the garment to the right. please post a back pic like the first in Post 66 but remove the 6-7 pins in the side seam from hem upwards. I would be interested wether the back moves towards the middle when unrestricted.

Your back seems never to be close to your body at the hip line, even with a long back balance. That´s why I suppose you have a forward hip posture (posaune already mentioned it). To verify please post an exact profil pic facing towards the stairs without toile . There should be a vertical line in the background (like the doorframe) to judge wether the most protruding points of the blades and the buttocks toutch the same vertical line or the hip is forward:
(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/haltungsaumlnderung7_zpsyjqbtrar.jpg)

Here are the side profiles peterle requested.

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lprofile_zpsmw32svwx.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rprofile_zpshdy2edsw.jpg)

Thank You.
Defenitely a forward hip posture.
How to alter your basic pattern:

(http://i864.photobucket.com/albums/ab204/rosenquarz7at/HAKA007_zpsfua4dlz6.jpg)

"Drehpunkte" means pivot points.
Proceed i this manner:
Lay your pattern onto another sheet of paper/ your toile).
Copy the back and side body above the drehpunkte.  using your pattern as temolate pivot the backseam 1cm forward at the hem. using the second drehpunkt pivot sideseam 1cm forward at the hem. redraw the hemline, keeping a right angle at the center back.

Same with the side body.

Copy front from foldline -neckhole-shoulder-armhole to Drehpunkt. Pivot sideseam forward for 1cm at the hem. Shift  parallel the hole front edge from hem to highest button forward for the same amount. redraw hemline, lapel and lapel fold line.

Maybe you need more than 1cm.

Neglect the sleeve sketch in the pic. it belongs to a different alteration.

Quote from: peterle on March 24, 2016, 09:50:29 PM
It looks like you have only altered the shoulder seam in the outer half? it should be done over the hole length.

I think I know what you were seeing.  Here's a closeup of the left shoulder.  The line of blue stitches marks the edge of the pattern piece (beginning of the inlay).  Pink chalk line is the old seam line:
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/l_should_zpsxznwxgp9.jpg)

These are the same as Post #66.  Shoulder pads are smoothly basted.  The back seams sewn and pressed, but left free from the waist line down:

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/fb5_zpsq8d3d3ej.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/bb5_zpsitqezwnr.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/lb5_zpsjydirrzh.jpg)

(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/ruleyjm/rb5_zpshugnukdi.jpg)

Quote from: peterle on March 25, 2016, 12:43:14 AM
Thank You.
Defenitely a forward hip posture.
How to alter your basic pattern:

Thank you very much!

Before I make these changes, do you think I have the alteration for dropped shoulder correct?
Is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

I think the dropped shoulder, the difference of left and right armhole to be precise, is right.
But I think the slope on both shoulders is yet to deep. The shoulders seem to sit only on the outer thirds. You probably can feel this when wearing. The garments weight should be distributed evenly across both shoulders and the neck.
I think you should shallow the slope of both shoulders a bit. don´t forget the front shoulders. A shallower slope will probably also remove the stress folds of the front armholes majka was talking of.

is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

Do you mean the drop of the lower shoulder or the slope of the shoulders?

The most reliable method for finding the right shoulder line is a pin fitting. Unfortunately this is not possible when fitting yourself.

Quote from: majka on March 24, 2016, 08:50:06 PM
Until the much more experienced people come here, here are my 2 cents.

It is difficult to see it exactly without stitching the wedge and ironing it, but in my opinion the change brought few problems I am seeing. In the following picture, I am using the more pronounced side:

You did "steal" some length from the front part . If you go with it, you have to give some of it back one way or another. The seam needs needs to be changed - perhaps not as much as shown, some length should come back there, it is bit too tight in my eyes - this is the black line in the picture.

As for the wrinkles shown by the blue lines. In the front part, even if you do the previous correction (giving some length back), you are now missing part of the armhole and should get the initial shape back. The shape of the armhole in the back needs to be checked too, there is similar problem there. I think this is the case, not too much seam allowance tightening the armhole too much (in such case, clipping it would help). I would need to see the shape hidden under the arm. If you simply moved the side part down, the armhole would have awkward shape there. Without the re-positioning, there would be simply not enough space to get the arm through and the problem would be obvious. Now, it is just a bit too tight. You can see it in the front view, not repeated here.

Majka,

for some reason your picture does not show on my screen.  Can you re-check the link?  Can anyone else see it?

Thanks,

Jim

Quote from: peterle on March 25, 2016, 03:20:26 AM

is there some way of accurately measuring the drop, or is it just whatever makes things look right?

Do you mean the drop of the lower shoulder or the slope of the shoulders?

I meant the drop of the lower shoulder, relative to the higher one.

Quote from: peterle on March 25, 2016, 03:20:26 AM
But I think the slope on both shoulders is yet to deep. The shoulders seem to sit only on the outer thirds. You probably can feel this when wearing. The garments weight should be

I wonder if part of the problem is the shoulder seam shape?  The draft I used is for concave shoulders:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=78.0

Compare the "natural shoulder line" here:
http://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=79.0

So, if I want to keep the concave shoulder profile, I need to shallow the slope more and also use thicker pads.  Or I could reshape the seam for a natural line, and my slope is probably near correct.  Have I analyzed this correctly?

Jim, you would do well if you had more books on fitting. Poulins book, which you can download, has some excellent advice. Hosteks book is worth every penny about fitting. Another book you can download is, believe his name is Carley, about alterations, so not everything you want to do, but a ton of advice in it.

With pins you can change the shoulder seam to another location. Perhaps you would like it back out of sight. Some like it straight across the top. Others like it a little in front. And, then there are those who like it crisscross one way or the other. And, many more things.

Jruley,
you are walking in circles.  If you want a natural shoulder or a concave one you can decide that later when the thing fit.
I would pin out first that vertical dart from hem up to pocket to get a better fit in front as Terri suggested. After this is done take a pic and show it. Then you look at your armholes. I think they are a smidge to tight in front. Snip little snips where the armhole curves and look if it this gets better with this folds at front side.
If you want to take out a length across back you should do this about 4 cm under the neckhole - not at armhole level. I too think the draft has a big slope but this was done in older drafts. The fit does not depends on where the shoulder seam runs but the front and back must be proportioned. Your back looks long in this part and there are ripples. If there is too much length at back armhole (not forget you ease some of it in with the real fabric)  you can dart out at back armhole, - this dart will be rotated in the shoulder seams and ease it in - as Terri told you. As you have a big slop there (bias) no big problem as long you take no garbadine.
lg
posaune

If you want to know your amount of hanging and you have no measureing device for it - You tape a piece of paper angled to the door. Your wife should take a pencil and trace your shoulder lines or mark the SP on the paper. Now you can measure the difference. You can do this for the waist and hip too.

I think it's best if I'm the one who says it:  This isn't going to work.

I thought this would be a fun little side project. It is not; it's serious work.

This is going to take a lot more time and effort than I am willing to give it right now, so I think it's best to put it aside.

I really, really appreciate everyone's patience, time, and generosity with their knowledge.  I hope you will be able to help someone else who is better prepared. :)

Well, I would try again. I would not expect that I got it right for the first time.
Now you know what you are up to and no - you are not Quasimodo. If you look at the pic from Östereichische Schneiderzeitung you see your posture (good find, Peterle) and what to do to a basic draft to get good results. You have to add  to the draft the hanging side which I think will be about 1.5 cm not more.  How the hip behaves at hanging side is to see. Some have it high at hanging side some low.
Cheer up
lg
posaune

I´m sure you would succeed.

A tip for this and future projects: It is nearly impossible to fit one self. Some of the issues can only be removed by using pins and hands while the garment is worn.
The best and only way to fit one self is a personal dress form, made of parcel paper strips. With such a copy of your body fitting is a lot easier.
Even Chanel uses this kind of dressforms for not bothering ther customers with fittings, so you would be in good company.

To get an impression of the how to´s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLT6vsfkkkI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLT6vsfkkkI)

Jim, was your intention to gain experience drafting or in the making?
I understand that you make more period garments, are they for yourself or others?
What kind of process do you take with those?

I think this is a good thread for people to see, because it does illustrate the trials and tribulations of trying to make a custom draft.
I think it is a good idea to have someone with experience walk you through it, and so I hope you find someone close by.
Don,t be discouraged though, even with years of experience, it rarely is 100% correct the first time. There are always modifications to be made as each body is different. That is with regular proportionate shapes. With more complicated figures, there are many more things to consider, and modify for sure. It is not as simple as many would think.
Sometimes putting it away for awhile gives you the chance to mull things over and come back to it later with fresh ideas and insights.
T

There never to many fitting books. An author may explain some things very well, but not so much the others. This is where other authors come in handy. No book has all the answers, anyway. For example, Poulin says to balance the coat mid-shoulder to mid-shoulder leaving the outer shoulder for later, being that is for shoulder capacity. Instead of jumping to different problems at random he has divided the problems up into sections, which he has numbered, in the first group. Hosteks method shows out some other problems. On the side his method opens the door for a more crooked cut if you want too. Even these books have valuable fitting information http://costumes.org/wiki/index.php/History100pages1893to1898cuttersguide As a small boy I heard grandfather explaining to people who came to him about fitting problems. Many of his answers came right out of these books. MTOC, didn't mention that one. Horsteks probably hadn't written his book yet. The best know the most.

In America look up sway back, the Germans call it something else, hips swayed forward.  It is not a good idea to have buttons and button holes, but inlay out there instead, which you might need. Something about the don lon wedge, one side may be different than the other. It is sort of a lever pulling the front hem forwards or back, but also lengthening or shortening the hem length.

Those texts should not be regarded as required reading.  Every tiny nuance has been useful to me in developing an inner eye to what to look for.

Some alterations tailors are real tailors. Some of them might help you. You can ask some of those wedding clothing stores (doubtful, but maybe). How many tailors have ended up in retirement homes, bored out of their minds, waiting for somebody to come along with a subject they are interested in? It is very possible their is one nearby.

Many people have two sided bodies. How many home sewers buy a pattern, sew it up and wonder why it doesn't fit. Watching YouTube this one tailor had the two sides taped together, the tape was a hinge so he could chalk one, then the other (larger on top). Another method is cut out the larger, draw the smaller (which comes from the fitting), then poke lots of holes in the line, which you rub chalk through when chalking the pattern. That is another way to have left and right handy. Dressing trousers? Poke holes down the smaller line.

Although it was my intention to just occasionally follow the progress in this thread (no time, and too many cooks and all that), I was getting so confused that I have to put forward a couple of points; I promise I will be silent after.
It's quite possible that others have already addressed the same issues, but as I wanted to explore the use of an external picture server, I decided to add my contribution anyway. Please skip already resolved points and out-of-date matters, or skip this whole post if obsolete; a delayed response is practically inescapable for me.

• The cure for low shoulder
  
  Why wasn't a simple, standard modification applied, such as shown in Fig. 1? It illustrates a straightforward moving down of the armhole from A to B, with a re-draw of the shoulder lines (1, 2) and the side seam (3), without side effects from wedges in a variety of places.
  
  Fig. 1:
  (http://s28.postimg.org/92mtolxwd/low400.png)
  
  
• Is that cure necessary?
  
  The tailor will not only strive for a correct fit, but will also want to hide figure "abnormalities" as far as possible. With that in mind, why weren't unequal shoulder pads considered, alone or in combination with a moderate armhole drop? For a low shoulder one would correct about half the amount with a drop and the rest with a higher pad. That involves a sleeve modification, but the effect is usually better and less obtrusive.
  
  
• The diagnosis
  
  Can we really be sure that the right shoulder is low? Low, that is, with respect to what the pattern assumes, as shown in Fig. 2, where the armhole of the garment (A) ends higher than that of the body (B). But when I look at the initial photographs at the beginning of this thread, I have my doubts. It's always a bit difficult to judge solely from photographs, but when I look at the back (reproduced in Fig. 3), I see no obvious signs of low shoulder.
  For a low shoulder with the arm assumed unchanged, one would expect diagonal folds from underside of armhole to higher back, something similar in the front, as the arm pushes the armhole down. The end of garment shoulder tends to collapse and this can also lead to the collar sliding off sideways. In actual fact, the shoulder points are practically at the same height, if the door moulding is taken as a vertical reference. Any correction deemed necessary at the fitting stage could probably be delt with using shoulder pads.
  
  Fig. 2:
  (http://s10.postimg.org/rd1yrfam1/armhole_1_200.png)
  
  Fig. 3:
  (http://s12.postimg.org/rp9u238f1/front_back_1_500.png)
  
  


• High or low
  
  Why was it decided that the right shoulder was low with respect to the pattern and not the left shoulder high? Were measurements done and compared with the pattern dimensions? I don't seem to be able to find them.
  
  


• Measuring
  
  Over the years several contraptions have been invented to assist with taking measures. One of the simplest ways to obtain information about arm scye location is to place a ruler or similar object under the person's arms, against the muscle bundles running to the arm (Fig. 4).
  
  Fig. 4:
  (http://s30.postimg.org/ogjciz8pd/meas_scye_1_400.png)
  
  Make sure that the upper edge of the ruler is horizontal, with the arm relaxed and hanging down. You'll need a fixed reference point F to measure the distance to the horizontal plane. Compare with the same measurement on the pattern, taking seam allowances and ease into account.
  There are a couple of pitfalls with this method. Sometimes prominent shoulder blades need increased back length. If the figure is then measured in the groove between them, the length may appear too short. Second, remember that the armhole's lowest point is actually lower than the upper edge of the ruler, as it has a rounded shape. One could use a template for the lower part of the armhole, cut after the pattern, to aid in measuring when one doesn't want to apply a correction.
  
  


• Shoulders
  
  When the fronts are examined there is a height difference visible, again using the door as a vertical reference. But it seems to me, not just from this photograph (Fig. 3), but also from elsewhere in the thread, that the figure may have a tendency to tilt the upper body slightly to the right. I doubt whether a dropped shoulder correction in the pattern would be advisable in those cases.
  If one were to insist on modification, giving a slight slant to the upper body part would seem more appropriate, depending on what one wanted to achieve. A modification like that has many variants, depending on what the actual body shape is, for instance something like in Fig. 5. Sometimes a prominent hip is present as well, on the ipsi- or contralateral side, which has to be provided for.
  
  Fig. 5:
  (http://s11.postimg.org/clbg125jj/tiltexpmt_2_450.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/clbg125jj/)
  
  


• Shoulder joint
  
  The left shoulder joint (front and left side photographs) seems to point forward a bit more and push slightly against the garment. This may have to be accommodated for separately. Also, the collar seems to be lifted and displaced a bit on the left side, which may be associated with the same issue.
  
  


• Back of armscye
  
  There certainly is looseness and untidiness there, as is evident from the side views (Fig.6). However, this looseness looks to appear only from the shoulder tip down the back (2), not on top of the shoulder. In fact, the upper part fits quite well, the collar, although insufficiently shaped perhaps, is in the right position (1), the upper back seems smooth. Many people hold their shoulder blades slightly forward, which gives that effect.
  I would be reluctant to extensively modify the pattern for it, and would prefer to introduce padding at the back, keep the back scye short and attach the back shoulder with fullness to the front. The slightly wide back can then roll smoothly against the sleeve.
  I noticed also that the shoulder seams are rather far to the back at the shoulder end (3); not necessarily a problem, but shoulder seam displacement can make modifications more difficult. At least a temporary conversion to shoulder seam at natural shoulder is what I would undertake.
  
  Fig. 6:
  (http://s7.postimg.org/i29vaswx3/left_right_1_500.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/i29vaswx3/)
  
  


• High or low again
  
  This is my dilemma here, I secretly think that the shoulders here are not low at all, but high, with the left a little more prominent. Jacket patterns in general (but I don't know about this particular one) assume introduction of shoulder pads. When one imagines that here, the shoulders would end up too high. This can also be seen in the rest of the thread, after the right shoulder is progressively lowered. The collar, or its line of attachment, then rises far too high up the shirt collar and horizontal surplus folds appear along the top of the back, while the neck opening is lifted upwards.
  
  


• On balance
  
  Others have already pointed out that the balance of a coat only refers to the part above a horizontal plane through the chest or bottom of scye line. Just as a general reminder: the symptoms of a wrong balance can be seen lower down (the way the fronts and the back hang, etc.), but those symptoms are only reliable indicators if the garment hangs freely from that chest plane. As soon as a forward abdomen, a pronounced hip or a backward seat are present, those indicators are useless. For that reason I do wonder why among all the photographs I don't remember a single one with a chest line drawn in front and back, a most helpful indicator.
  
  


• Foreparts
  
  It seems clear from the start that the foreparts do not hang correctly and swing sideways and backwards. It's difficult to determine what to do about it without any guide lines at waist and seat height. My guess is that a prominent (not necessarily larger in circumference) abdomen is partly responsible for that. In many side views I can see that the piece deviates forward, but as the figure is hidden from view by the toile the how and what of it remain guesswork. Posaune did already point this out early on and I concur. That would be, together with the major balances (in J. King Wilson terms), my main concern at this stage, instead of the shoulder experiments.
  
  


• Reference point
  
  As has been said by others, a good, reproducible reference point is required. The extension of the seventh cervical vertebra is often mentioned (processus spinosus vertebrae prominentis, for the anatomists among us), but I find that it is not always easy to locate a definite point accurately by palpating it. Often I use the edge of a comfortable, well and close fitting shirt collar, worn closed.
  
  


• On toile fitting
  
  I think it's wise to remember that the fit of a thin cotton garment model, without interfacing, sleeve and collar will not guarantee a one-to-one correspondence to a real jacket. To me, it makes little sense to try to obtain a precise fit in it. I would use the cotton model to look at the general impression, the shape of the garment on the person and to correct major flaws. Then perhaps for practice construct a sample using fabric of comparable weight and characteristics to what the end result is supposed to be. That piece would have provisional interfacing, collar, sleeves attached and perhaps also a lining of some sort to make sure the garment glides easily over the shirt. A detailed fitting would be done with that while the weights of all the different parts exerted their influence.
  
  


• Knowledge base
  
  I'm beginning to understand why the Cutter and Tailor forum doesn't allow coat or jacket making posts. I'm sorry if I sound blunt, but the avidity with which pattern modifications are carried out, following "recipes" plucked from anywhere, seemingly without much understanding of the mechanics involved, surprises me. Perfectly fine if one wants to experiment with modifications, and even advisable to do so, however creating a usable pattern seems to be the object here. In which case I would plead in favour of a rigorous, systematic top-down approach, section by section. That necessitates a good understanding of basic fitting principles and one could do worse than studying J. King Wilson's treatise on the subject and experimenting with his ideas. The little book is nearly completely available online at the other forum, as far as I know.
  
  

Despite these remarks, I wish every success and look forward to a well-fitting, well-constructed jacket being modelled in due course. Don't give up. Tenaciousness is a virtue.

How can one shoulder be high? Unless a person defies gravity or grows higher on one side  it is always one shoulder dropping and any assumed 'height' of the opposing shoulder is an offsetting of balance to that side. Just like a so-called "high hip" is really the effect of the 'sagging' shoulder which causes displacement: one tilts up and the other tilts down.

They're all effects of spinal displacement, but one can't gain height in this way without the other being low, it's just that the lowered shoulder is often more pronounced than the height gained on the other side.

The 'mechanics' need to be understood, yes, preferably by everyone.

Quote from: lepus on March 28, 2016, 04:02:57 AM
Although it was my intention to just occasionally follow the progress in this thread (no time, and too many cooks and all that), I was getting so confused that I have to put forward a couple of points; I promise I will be silent after.

Thanks for your comments.  I will not try to respond in detail, but thanks for the detailed review.

I'm sure it's obvious to you that I didn't know what I was doing.

You may have missed that peterle found that the neck point in the initial draft was significantly too far back.  This was not corrected until post #18.  So the first toile (earliest pictures, that you worked with) was way too crooked.

It is also possible I stood straighter for these earlier pictures.  As the coat got more lopsided I may have unconsciously conformed my body to it, or just been more sloppy about posing.

When and IF I take this up again, I will probably just go back to the original draft and reevaluate how it fits.  Then make changes one at a time.

Too many other demands on my time to work on this now.

Hi Henry,

After 20 years of work as a therapist, my observation is that for right handed folks the right shoulder is 'normally' lower and the left is higher, maybe a cm or so.  I interpret this as being the result of using the left arm to "get on top of things" and hold them down, while working with the right arm.  the case for left handers is reversed.   If the right shoulder is higher, and usually painful in some way, that should be a temporary situation that would normally respond to some sort of therapy.

It needn't be the result of spinal twisting, but certainly such a condition will lead to shoulder differences I would expect greater than 1 cm though.

G

Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 28, 2016, 11:25:44 AM

After 20 years of work as a therapist, my observation is that for right handed folks the right shoulder is 'normally' lower and the left is higher, maybe a cm or so.

For the record, I am right handed, so that fits.

hi Lepus
thanks for taking the time and for the summary you did! Very valuable and welcomed.
I looked again at the pics and you are right: some times the shoulder are even, sometimes not, sometimes left, sometimes right higher (or lower).
But now I let it rest in peace.
lg
posaune