Hello,
I unfortunately don't have the luxury to walk up to a tailor in person to ask for help as they've all but vanished in my area except the dressmakers.
In the few comprehensive books I've read regarding the matter I found it hard due my lack of experience to tell how to tackle my specific defects as a whole as a remedy for one seems to counter what the other is suppose to do.
My main issue in getting my trousers to fit proper is to fix the horseshoe folds under the seat to behind my knees and fullness at CB, likely due my erect posture aswell as adding more room in the front right under the waistband. (I'm an ostomy patient)
Therefore it's absolutely critical that my waistband sits 1" above my naval/natural waistline because of that. But if I were to draft a pattern with a rise of 11", the waistband at CB sits 2" too high. To keep balance, do I draft a rise of 10" and add a wedge on the top to increase it to 11" and then take out a wedge on the underside to reduce it by 1" or can I draft the rise at 11" and just take 2" off the CB height with a wedge? I feel the latter doesn't feel so balanced.
Then my naval/natural waist measurement is 34" but where the waistband has to sit is 32". I can't find if that means I have to draft a pattern for a 32" waist and add more room at the fall line for 'stout figure' or draft a pattern for a 34" waist and solve it by taking out more in a dart at the back?
My latest attempt at a muslin for my next pair of pants I couldn't get rid of the horseshoe folds even though I followed the steps according to This remedy (https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php?topic=694.0). Trying to move the seat even further made it very uncomfortable to move and bend. I don't have any experience with ironing so I can't really rely on that.
This is a picture of the pattern I had drafted for my first pair of pants. Any feedback is much appreciated.
(https://i.imgur.com/6LPZKvF.png)
I'm sure you'll get some help if you post photos of yourself wearing either a toile or the garment in its current state. Front, back and both profiles.
If you don't have someone to take photos, prop your phone up against something on a table and video yourself in mirror mode turning 360 degrees. Take stills from the video and post those. The quality probably won't be as good, but you can also do this with your laptop camera.
The pattern alone doesn't tell us much.
We can't help you without pics.It depends on your figure wether you need a belly cut or not. Usually a belly cut is used when the waist girth is same or bigger than the chest girth.
Looking at your pattern I do have questions: wich system did you use? Especially I wonder about the legs. The knee and hem line are shifted dramatically inwards. It seems as if the front hem is even more inwards than the crotch point. The crease line seems very slanted and does not meet the horizontal lines right angled. I can't imagine a body type to fit this pattern.
Quote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 04:12:38 PMI'm sure you'll get some help if you post photos of yourself wearing either a toile or the garment in its current state. Front, back and both profiles.
I hope these pictures added are helpful.
Quote from: peterle on May 06, 2025, 07:16:45 PMLooking at your pattern I do have questions: wich system did you use? Especially I wonder about the legs. The knee and hem line are shifted dramatically inwards. It seems as if the front hem is even more inwards than the crotch point. The crease line seems very slanted and does not meet the horizontal lines right angled. I can't imagine a body type to fit this pattern.
The system I used is from Harry Simons and is from 1945, the book can be found here: https://archive.org/details/simonsdraftingtrousers1945 (https://archive.org/details/simonsdraftingtrousers1945)
I used it because I was looking for pleated-top pattern and this one was the best I could find at that time. But now I found this forum and discovered the book by Whife, The Modern Tailor Outfitter and Clothier, I will probably draft their pleated-top for my next pair as it seems a little more refined and comes with instructions how to put them together. Something I'm still sort of winging it at this time with the help of various Youtube videos.
This is the first pair I made earlier this year, I started sewing in January. The rise was drafted a little too high as with suspenders the waistband sits about right under my lowest rib. And I feel like they're a bit tight around my belly as the pleat at the hip 'pop' out. It's a 32 waist. Not sure why the rear picture looks twisted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TLnMYqCM/IMG-1969-copy.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TLnMYqCM)
This is a toile of a 34 waist I made for my next pair. I've made quite a few toiles up to this point but none have been satisfactory without horseshoe folds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WhY2y8yX/IMG-1968-copy.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhY2y8yX)
With respect to your toile, my first impression is that you have too much length at the back. In profile you can see diagonal folds and drags, pointing upwards towards the fronts. Which tells us that the backs are too low down, relatively speaking.
For starters, I'd unpick the waistband all along the back. Treat its lower edge like a lapped seam and pin it in place through all layers. Pick up some of the cloth above the seat into the waistband while you're pinning. If you have someone to help, they can smooth upwards those lateral folds just above the seat into the band, then pin everything in place. If you're working on your own, you'll have to estimate things and do things empirically, which can be a long process.
I'd also undo the darts, pinch their intake on the outside and pin/baste them. That way they can be better fitted after things are picked up (pinch out cloth and pin it). They'll look like pleats once picked up into the band. For the moment, things look too tight in that area, which is in stark contrast to the seat. [Edit: your darts look quite skinny, so the above might not be possible. Still, I'd baste them so that they can be altered easier].
Your back fork may be a little too long, and you possibly have too much ease across the seat. Don't try to tack everything at once, though. It's difficult to say for sure until things have been picked up. Start by getting the waistband fitted nicely, in the correct position - the band will settle where it wants to settle - releasing any tightness if it's pinching. Then sort out the front-back balance by manipulating cloth into the waistband. That needs to be done before any pattern alterations IMO. Pay attention to you profile pics when you're assessing adjustments. If you have any diagonal drags from front to back, or vice versa, then one side it higher than the other. The drags will always point upwards to the higher side, which helps you in your judgements.
Quote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 09:11:21 PMFor starters, I'd unpick the waistband all along the back. Treat its lower edge like a lapped seam and pin it in place through all layers. Pick up some of the cloth above the seat into the waistband while you're pinning. If you have someone to help, they can smooth upwards those lateral folds just above the seat into the band, then pin everything in place. If you're working on your own, you'll have to estimate things and do things empirically, which can be a long process.
Thanks, I will have a go at this. I'll have to fold about 2" of CB into the waistband.
Quote[Edit: your darts look quite skinny, so the above might not be possible. Still, I'd baste them so that they can be altered easier].
You are right, they are skinny, this pattern only calls for a ¼ inch dart, taking out ¾ in total including seam allowance. So not much to work by.
QuoteYour back fork may be a little too long
I didn't increase the fork in this toile. I kept reading that one has to increase the fork on the back to counter these folds and I've been blindly following that so I never thought of reducing it. I'll give it a go.
Would you say there's something to gain by adjusting the seat angle at this point? Something that's brought up in most remedies I've come across.
Appreciate the insight! Thanks.
I'm not a professional, but I have struggled with my own trouser pattern - so here goes.
Given the objections peterle raised and the issues you've already recognized, I would suggest starting over with a "neutral" draft such as this one:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,56.msg215.html#msg215
Don't worry about pleats at this point, they are a style feature and can be added once you have the basic shape established.
Don't worry about pockets yet either. Build the foundation, then the house. :)
You will probably need a "flat seat adjustment" (as in your first post) but don't try to anticipate how much. Just make the draft as shown, cut out the toile with enough seam allowance for adjustments, and post pictures of the result.
It's best to make one small change at a time. You will reach a point where you are taking in a bit here and letting out a bit there. Things become quite unpredictable if you make multiple changes at once. It's tedious and time consuming, but if you stick with it things eventually work out.
Quote from: Robb on May 06, 2025, 10:07:28 PMThanks, I will have a go at this. I'll have to fold about 2" of CB into the waistband.
That's possibly a bit excessive. If working by yourself, try a smaller amount and progress from there, increasing/decreasing things incrementally until things look better. If you're pinning the band on at the back, then this is relatively easy to do. And don't be tempted to pull things up too high, to the point where you give yourself a 'wedgie'. :) Just pulling up cloth at the back isn't going to solve all of your problems (your legs might still have folds under the seat for the moment). It's merely a starting point - getting the foundations right, so to speak. Once things look a little cleaner, then the pattern can be manipulated on a need-to basis.
QuoteYou are right, they are skinny, this pattern only calls for a ¼ inch dart, taking out ¾ in total including seam allowance. So not much to work by.
Then you might need to increase the waist circumference. Things look very tight above the seat. Hopefully you left some inlay on the seams. If not, then obviously do so for all future toiles.
QuoteWould you say there's something to gain by adjusting the seat angle at this point? Something that's brought up in most remedies I've come across.
Just concentrate on getting the front-back balance right to begin with, so that there are no diagonal drag lines or folds in profile and some of that excess above the seat is smoothed into the waistband. Don't touch anything else yet (leave the fork alone, until things are clearer). If you tackle too many things at once, you can't determine the effect of any one alteration.
The fronts don't look too bad, so I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that you've added pleats. Even if you do try another draft, it's worth trying out a few things with this current toile to better knock it into shape. The relative lengths can be transferred to any future draft.
OK, I see two main issues:
As I thought, the inward shifted legs cause problems. The inseam is too short compared to the outseam. The trousers are pulled outside by the calfs and therefore the side seam above collapses. This causes the horseshoe folds at the side(not at the back) of the trousers.
The second thing I see ist a forward hip posture. This posture causes the ripples of the undersides between butt and calfes. But I' m not sure, wether this is your natural pose. Knotting the Arms in front of the belly automatically enhances this posture. We need pics with arms hanging loose, under arms bent horizontally so we can see the side seam and your natural posture.
I personally would redraft the trousers with a more modern system, using your personal waist and hip girth and with a vertical center line. There are too much troubles with your system with the shifted hem and knee lines and this slanted center line. Also no one knows how to judge the slant of the back trousers with such slanted legs. I'm sure this system requires a Ton of ironwork to produce fitting trousers.
Quote from: peterle on May 06, 2025, 07:16:45 PMEspecially I wonder about the legs. The knee and hem line are shifted dramatically inwards. It seems as if the front hem is even more inwards than the crotch point. The crease line seems very slanted and does not meet the horizontal lines right angled. I can't imagine a body type to fit this pattern.
Perhaps this was a 'closed' posture adjustment?? (the feet are very together in the first set of photos). It does look odd though.
Quote from: jruley on May 06, 2025, 10:29:30 PMIt's best to make one small change at a time. You will reach a point where you are taking in a bit here and letting out a bit there. Things become quite unpredictable if you make multiple changes at once. It's tedious and time consuming, but if you stick with it things eventually work out.
Thanks for the encouragement!
Quote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 11:00:14 PMAnd don't be tempted to pull things up too high, to the point where you give yourself a 'wedgie'.
Is that possibly why they would suggest to lengthen the fork?
Quote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 11:00:14 PMThe fronts don't look too bad, so I wouldn't worry too much about the fact that you've added pleats. Even if you do try another draft, it's worth trying out a few things with this current toile to better knock it into shape. The relative lengths can be transferred to any future draft.
That's a fair point. I'll see what I can salvage from this toile in terms of improvements.
Quote from: peterle on May 06, 2025, 11:32:49 PMOK, I see two main issues:
As I thought, the inward shifted legs cause problems. The inseam is too short compared to the outseam. The trousers are pulled outside by the calfs and therefore the side seam above collapses. This causes the horseshoe folds at the side(not at the back) of the trousers.
The second thing I see ist a forward hip posture. This posture causes the ripples of the undersides between butt and calfes. But I' m not sure, wether this is your natural pose. Knotting the Arms in front of the belly automatically enhances this posture. We need pics with arms hanging loose, under arms bent horizontally so we can see the side seam and your natural posture.
It might be slightly exaggerated for the photo but it's more or less my natural rest position after standing for a while.
Quote from: peterle on May 06, 2025, 11:32:49 PMI personally would redraft the trousers with a more modern system, using your personal waist and hip girth and with a vertical center line. There are too much troubles with your system with the shifted hem and knee lines and this slanted center line. Also no one knows how to judge the slant of the back trousers with such slanted legs. I'm sure this system requires a Ton of ironwork to produce fitting trousers.
Just to clarify, with personal waist you mean the waist I want the trousers to sit at?
Quote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 11:36:15 PMPerhaps this was a 'closed' posture adjustment?? (the feet are very together in the first set of photos). It does look odd though.
No adjustments, this is their basic draft pattern style. Only their stout/corpulent pattern has a vertical center line.
Thanks everyone for your feedback, it's highly appreciated. Got some fine guiderails to follow now.
Quote from: Robb on May 07, 2025, 12:05:55 AMQuote from: Gerry on May 06, 2025, 11:00:14 PMAnd don't be tempted to pull things up too high, to the point where you give yourself a 'wedgie'.
Is that possibly why they would suggest to lengthen the fork?
When pulling up cloth into the waistband, there's only so far you can go until the scoop of the CB fork rides up into the crease of the backside, that's all I meant. It's sometimes tempting to pull things up that far in an attempt to get rid of sagging cloth under the seat. That's not the solution.
QuoteNo adjustments, this is their basic draft pattern style. Only their stout/corpulent pattern has a vertical center line.
In the past, 'normal'/correct posture was taken as both feet together (what we now refer to as 'closed' posture). It reflected military tradition and is often seen in older drafts. Your draft is from that era (though it was possibly a little archaic at the time of publication); which is why I thought you'd carried out a 'closed' leg adjustment.
It's no longer relevant. Nowadays we know that good posture is with both feet parallel to one another, planted firmly under the hips so that the legs drop perpendicular to the floor when viewed from the front/back. What posture people actually have is another matter entirely, of course.
The advice to try a more modern draft is probably the best way to go. Though personally, I'd still experiment with your current toile for a little while longer. As mentioned, you can transfer the relative lengths and circumferences to your new draft.
Quote from: Robb on May 07, 2025, 12:05:55 AMJust to clarify, with personal waist you mean the waist I want the trousers to sit at?
I didn't read the whole pattern instructions, but it seems it uses just proportional girth measures. In modern systems the personal hip and waist girth measurements are used in the particular spots(and you doesn't have to guess wether you do a34 or 32 Inch waist) When taking your measurements (girths and lengths) you should start from a sturdier ribbon fixed around your waist at the spot where you want it to be. Be sure it has enough grip there and finds it's natural position. Take your length measurements starting at the lower edge of the ribbon.
I think continuing with the slanted leg pattern would be quite complicated especially for a beginner. Spare a lot of frustration and draw a new one. Fitting trousers for yourself is challenging enough even with a good draft.
A forward hip posture needs some adjustments: Generally the undersides are to be narrowed by slashing the center line and overlapping at the hip line and the fronts are to be widened by slashing and pivoting open by the same amount.