I have a pattern for pants that I am now happy enough with (ignore my older posts on this; I went back to the drawing board several times). I would now like to make a version with pleats. I am finding two methods to do this; adding width to the waist and slash/pivot. I tried to make a pair of gabardine pants with a single deep pleat using slash and pivot. And while the result needs improved, it generally worked out, but I have concerns with both of these options.
Adding width to waist: This would also add length to the side seam, impacting the balance. That might be insignificant for a single small pleat, but I am trying to add three inches of ease for the pleats here.
Slash/pivot: I noticed that this causes one side on the top to drop. About half an inch in my case. With a solid rightly woven fabric like gabardine, this is entirely unnoticeable to my eye. But if I have a vertical pattern, won't this really stick out?
I see drafts that include pleats in their formula and I wonder if I am better off just starting over with one of those.
Inconsistencies can be sorted out when the pleats are sewn and the waistband is about to be sewn on. The waistline can be remeasured and redrawn using the original pattern, a curving stick or by eye. Or, if discrepancies are minor, you can simply baste the waistband on and make adjustments on the fly using your eye. Just be sure to leave inlay at the waist so that such adjustments are possible.
With such a deep pleat you may be better off pivoting in both directions (judging by your description you haven't, but apologies if you did) for better symmetry, as outlined in the following article (though no idea what that would do to patterned cloth - I'm guessing that adding width for pleats is going to be less disruptive?):
(https://i.postimg.cc/w3M5mr5T/Trouser-Pleats-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3M5mr5T)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jC1HQhv6/Trouser-Pleats-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jC1HQhv6)
Thanks. I am starting to suspect this is just something that works well for solid color cloth or cloth with vertical striped patterns, but maybe not so good for checks or plaids. As I said, it worked well enough for my test, but the fabric was very off grain at the waistband. Maybe I'll spend a weekend to try one of these dedicated drafts.
Interesting topic because I love pleated pants!
My tailoring experience is very limited, but I have thought about the same issue concerning stripes and patterns.
What I would do is make a mini version of your pattern and make different versions of pleats. Then I would trace it on writing paper (the one with the horizontal lines), fold the pleats, and just see how it affects the lines.
I have not tried this myself, but that is what I will do when I get to pants with patterns!
Quote from: Gerry on February 27, 2025, 07:39:53 AMInconsistencies can be sorted out when the pleats are sewn and the waistband is about to be sewn on. The waistline can be remeasured and redrawn using the original pattern, a curving stick or by eye. Or, if discrepancies are minor, you can simply baste the waistband on and make adjustments on the fly using your eye. Just be sure to leave inlay at the waist so that such adjustments are possible.
With such a deep pleat you may be better off pivoting in both directions (judging by your description you haven't, but apologies if you did) for better symmetry, as outlined in the following article (though no idea what that would do to patterned cloth - I'm guessing that adding width for pleats is going to be less disruptive?):
(https://i.postimg.cc/w3M5mr5T/Trouser-Pleats-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w3M5mr5T)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jC1HQhv6/Trouser-Pleats-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jC1HQhv6)
That is about exactly how I was taught to draft pleated trousers...
For the pleat where you shift the pattern equal amounts away from the CF line, when you're making up the pant does that mean you're trying to end up with a "kissing pleat" as in the photo linked below?
https://www.permanentstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/kissing-pleat-cerrato.jpg
Just spreading the paper pattern does not fix the kind of pleat.
But you have to consider the pleat style when you position your pattern onto the cloth. You have to determin wether you want an ironed in crease line and where it should be positioned.
The crease line should always run parallel to the warp thread.
You can see it quite well in this trousers:
https://mrtrousers.it/products/copy-of-dark-grey-single-reverse-pleat-extended-waistband-fresco-wool-trousers-vbc (https://mrtrousers.it/products/copy-of-dark-grey-single-reverse-pleat-extended-waistband-fresco-wool-trousers-vbc)
The terminus technicus is 'inverted pleat' by the way. 'Kissing pleats' is a charming word by word translation of the italian 'piega baciata'.
Quote from: EvanTA on March 14, 2025, 01:15:17 AMFor the pleat where you shift the pattern equal amounts away from the CF line, when you're making up the pant does that mean you're trying to end up with a "kissing pleat" as in the photo linked below?
https://www.permanentstyle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/kissing-pleat-cerrato.jpg
That wasn't my interpretation of the article. D is drawn over to C for an English style pleat; and vice versa for the continental pleat (though do people do things that way for a single pleat?).
I also took it as read that this method was for plain cloth: to maintain better symmetry either side of the pleat, in terms of being slightly off grain (which is possibly going to result in better drape?).
yup, I was tought to cut the center of a boxpleat, "kissing pleat" in this case straight grain. In checks and stripes and the like, the inner fold should be cut straight grain. For a "single fold" pleat, the fold should be cut straight grain. Cutting off grain will, in time, result an slight twisting of the trouser leg or or sometimes bagging of the sideseams because of the extra bias.
Cheers, Hendrick
I think I'm getting tripped up on the specifics of the instruction for how to spread the pattern. In any approach for adjusting the pattern you want to split down the CF line and spread, then when cutting make sure you lay your pattern on the cloth so the CF line is parallel/along the warp thread. I'm taking it as a given that your CF line = crease line, so correct me if I'm wrong there.
So, why not slash/spread the pattern in the exact way you'll cut? If you plan to go English style pleat, cut along the CF line and spread the inseam-side of the pattern away, vice versa for continental style. This was my thinking that led to my assumption that with this approach of spreading equally you're expected to fold the pants that way as well to create the inverted/box/kissing pleat.
But, maybe I'm over-thinking it. I can slash/spread the pattern per the instructions in the attachment above, then when I lay the pattern on the cloth I'd line up the C line to be my crease line, i.e., make that parallel to warp thread, and when I'm making it up bring the D line over to the C line to create the pleat.
I am about to start on a single-pleat pant, so this is a handy discussion at the moment.
Quote from: EvanTA on March 15, 2025, 02:07:42 AMI think I'm getting tripped up on the specifics of the instruction for how to spread the pattern. In any approach for adjusting the pattern you want to split down the CF line and spread, then when cutting make sure you lay your pattern on the cloth so the CF line is parallel/along the warp thread. I'm taking it as a given that your CF line = crease line, so correct me if I'm wrong there.
So, why not slash/spread the pattern in the exact way you'll cut? If you plan to go English style pleat, cut along the CF line and spread the inseam-side of the pattern away, vice versa for continental style. This was my thinking that led to my assumption that with this approach of spreading equally you're expected to fold the pants that way as well to create the inverted/box/kissing pleat.
But, maybe I'm over-thinking it. I can slash/spread the pattern per the instructions in the attachment above, then when I lay the pattern on the cloth I'd line up the C line to be my crease line, i.e., make that parallel to warp thread, and when I'm making it up bring the D line over to the C line to create the pleat.
I am about to start on a single-pleat pant, so this is a handy discussion at the moment.
Although the article mentions slashing/cutting along the centre line, it also mentions that the pattern may instead be pivoted; and pivoting is more normal. Why would you make a permanent adjustment to your pattern if it's not necessary? What if you later wish to use the draft for a pair of trousers without a pleat.
Pivoting in one direction would be the better way to go for patterned cloth (or following the first method outlined in the article). For an English pleat, the side that gets pulled over towards the CF is on grain and inline with the crease. IIR that's the method outlined here by the Caffeinated Tailor. Though personally, I'd do all the pivoting/marking on the cloth, rather than creating a new pattern from the old (what if you want deeper/shallower pleats for the next pair ... waste of paper):
With plain cloth, and for a deep pleat in particular, it would make more sense to pivot either side of the crease line. As mentioned, this helps to create some symmetry on both sides of the 'dividing line', with respect to the cloth being off-grain from pivoting, as well as mitigating the amount that the CF is thrown off grain if only pivoting in one direction.
I was flicking through an old edition of the T&C the other week and noticed a pair of pleated trousers where the vertical stripes were totally off. So at least one tailor in the past didn't give a damn about such things! :)
Hi all, I have made probably half a dozen trousers unassisted, however I am struggling with my current project, which I've intended to give English style forward pleats, and a continuous waistband.
I've cut with this slash and pivot method, keeping the grain in line with the centre front of the half with the outseam and pocket and swinging out the fly half, however I am finding the pleat looks wrong, in how close it sits to the fly.
I've taken a photograph of both my pattern piece, drafted using a mix of Hostek's guide as well as some guidance from out trouser maker (currently on holiday), and the two fronts. One with the pleat pinned in at what SHOULD be the correct position, and the other in the middle of the front panel, which is where I was originally taught to put the pleat, however it is off grain.
Any comments or guidance would be appreciated on this one as I feel like I'm going mad.
(https://i.postimg.cc/94ZmnQBq/Whats-App-Image-2025-05-01-at-3-22-01-PM-jpg.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94ZmnQBq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Jb1TX9p/Whats-App-Image-2025-05-01-at-3-22-02-PM.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8Jb1TX9p)
I see your center line is not in the center at the crotch line. The crotch tip side seems shorter. That's why the pleat is so near to the zip.
I also see, you have a quite strong hip bow in your side seam. Maybe you need it. Did you do an unpleated version using this pattern and how does it fit?
Hi Don, it took me a number of read-throughs until I understood your post. The sewn RHS side is the problem, yes? Have you measured across the top of the waistband seam on the RHS? If it's too wide, then you've pivoted too much, possibly by double the required amount, but are closing it by the amount you calculated originally? In which case, the pinned side is in the correct position (and has the correct waist width) but the pleat is deeper than anticipated? Or have I misunderstood things?
Your use of the word 'grain' threw me. I think you meant that the pleat is out of position?
PS I agree with Peterle, the curvature at the hip on the side seam is very pronounced.
The pattern is very curved though the hip; much more dramatic than most examples, but the finished trousers have been okay.
The centre line being too far over seems so obvious now that you've pointed it out. I should have waited to cut the cloth and tested it I guess, but I was too eager.
Gerry the pleat is 1" deep, so I split the pattern 2", swinging the fly half of the trouser off grain as discussed in the magazine. Both pleats are the same size, and the finished measurement for the waist is correct I've just placed one (pinned in the image) in line with the centre crease, and the other (sewn down) I've put in line with the crease, which is parallel to the selvedge.
Clearly I'll have to do a full new draft. As this is already cut, do you suggest it is best to simply proceed with pleats too close to the fly, or to sew the pleat where it should be and manipulate the pleat to line up with the crease as I did on the other front? I'd love for there to be a third alternative which fixes perfectly it but I doubt that's possible.
You can't simply shift the crease-line to suit an aesthetic (a nicer looking pleat). The crease, and therefore leg, position needs to be where it needs to be, according to 'figuration'. Which begs the question, have you used the correct leg position? As drawn your pattern is for a 'closed' posture. If that is your actual posture, then leave things alone. Where your pleat 'should' be is not simply where you'd like it to be.
PS and I'm still totally confused as to what you've done on the sewn, RHS (not at all clear from your posts, sorry - you seem to be using the term 'crease' to mean something other than the centre crease down the leg?).
Edit: OK, I think I've understood you. The sewn pleat has been manipulated so that it aligns with the original draft line for the centre crease, prior to pivoting (effectively the grain of the cloth)? If so, then no, that's not the way to do things IMO.
Give the shape of the fronts, can you send a pic of the backpart?
Cheers, Hendrick
You do have a wide SA at the legs it seems.
Measure out how much difference is between the inner and the outer crotch line, just to know how much the center line is off.
You can try to shift the knee line and the hem line towards the side seam as much as possible(leave 0.75cm SA minimum). Reconnect the knee line points with the crotch tip / hip point. Thus you can shift the whole center line a bit outwards. Probably enough.
If there is not enough wiggle room, I personally would try to rescue the yet cut trousers by finishing them without pleats. And cut a new pair...
Maybe a pair of shorts. Summer is close.
Quote from: Greger on May 02, 2025, 05:51:11 PMMaybe a pair of shorts. Summer is close.
Ha ha speak for yourself. We've got nights down to 25C!
77f is a bit warm. Oven hot Australia, perhaps that is kind of cool?
Quote from: Greger on May 05, 2025, 12:34:06 PM77f is a bit warm. Oven hot Australia, perhaps that is kind of cool?
25C is actually a bit cold. ;)
A couple of weeks ago I woke up to 25f (-3.88c) 4,700 feet above sea level. Now, that is cold!
Nippy?
Nippy, complaining? I didn't stay very long. That part of Oregon is very volcanic. Red pumice and white pumice. Perhaps lava tubes. Some, over a hundred miles long. Cold in the winter and hot in the summer.
Quote from: Greger on May 06, 2025, 12:02:12 PMNippy, complaining?
Cultural thing - Nippy = cold and unpleasant. :)