The terms "front balance" and "back balance" seem to be fundamental to German coat drafting systems. Yet they aren't used (AFAIK) in English language drafts.
Could someone (maybe peterle or Schneiderfrei) post a sticky thread, with a diagram showing these balances and how to measure them?
They are just terms that describe the length of the front relative to the length of the back. There are a thousand ways to measure them and none are accurate unless you have experience. Müller & Sohn might try to persuade you that they have either developed the perfect calculation for the front and back balance, or that there is a one and only correct way to measure it, but this is not true. I don't know, they might have stopped saying these thing but they did so in the 60s. If you want to do it by measure instead of by eye, find a method that is not too complicated and stick with it for a while. I recommend J King Wilson's book (Art of Cutting and Fitting) as an intro to the concept.
I'm not suggesting these measures are some sort of magic trick. But if our German members are going to use them in fitting threads, it behooves us to know exactly what they are talking about.
Quote from: TSjursen on January 23, 2025, 06:46:36 AMThey are just terms that describe the length of the front relative to the length of the back. There are a thousand ways to measure them and none are accurate unless you have experience. Müller & Sohn might try to persuade you that they have either developed the perfect calculation for the front and back balance, or that there is a one and only correct way to measure it, but this is not true. I don't know, they might have stopped saying these thing but they did so in the 60s. If you want to do it by measure instead of by eye, find a method that is not too complicated and stick with it for a while. I recommend J King Wilson's book (Art of Cutting and Fitting) as an intro to the concept.
Agree! To me, there is only one balance. And then there are front and back lengths to cover the fullness of the body. However, thirty or so (...) years, ago I had the pleasure of working with a lady who had spent years of working at couture houses. She measured the body with a tape measure around the back neck, over the breastpoint to the exact 1/8th of the waistline, marked by an elastic string. Then again, over the shoulderpoint to the waist. She called them the most important balance lines...
Cheers, Hendrick
Quote from: jruley on January 23, 2025, 08:34:46 AMI'm not suggesting these measures are some sort of magic trick. But if our German members are going to use them in fitting threads, it behooves us to know exactly what they are talking about.
I didn't mean to suggest that. (And absolutely no offence meant either, just to be clear.) My point is that nobody knows exactly what they are talking about when they talk about the front and back balance. I'll leave it to the Germans to explain what they meant by these terms in the thread you are referring to
jruley, here is my old post from 10 years ago:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,61.msg251.html
The only images that are missing are the front of the J King Wilson Book and the download link from way back.
Here are a couple of current download links:
https://archive.org/details/kingwilsoncuttingfitting1958
https://www.scribd.com/document/306187268/1950-Art-of-Cutting-and-Fitting-A-Practical-Manual-Wilson-pdf
If you want to buy a hard copy, new. There's an interesting commentary on the fact that noone holds the copyright and scholars consider it a valuable book for the future.
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Cutting-Fitting-Practical-Manual/dp/1019352337
I have always had an eye for the old measurement techniques, but I'll have to find them later. I'm certain peterle would have one. :)
There is nothing mysterious or unprecise in these terms.
Of course there is just one balance. "Balanced" or "in balance" means the chest line is level at the front and the back.
Where does balance happen? It happens in the vertical distances between the neck point and the front and back chest line. When their relation corresponds with the individual body the coat is in balance.
"Front balance" and "back balance" are just the names for these distances and are obviousley shorts for "front balance distance" and "back balance distance".Maybe these terms are not self explaining like a lot of technical terms, but they are precise.
And I'm pretty sure, they are not a speciality of German systems. I would be glad when a nativ speaker would post more common English terms regarding this topic if there are any. Probably they are more easily to understand.
I think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts, but no fitting information or information about taking or applying specific balance measures, whereas in the German texts I have, it is explained clearly.
If specific measurements for balance are required like *strap* they use a device or a measurement that has a nebulous end point.
It makes me think the British systems prefer to fix the essentials of fit on the body rather than pre emptively at the pattern stage.
Quote from: peterle on January 23, 2025, 10:39:07 PMWhere does balance happen? It happens in the vertical distances between the neck point and the front and back chest line. When their relation corresponds with the individual body the coat is in balance.
This idea seems to be peculiar to the German systems. English language sources talk about "balance" in a more general sense. The corrections for balance problems in English sources I've seen assume the garment has already been cut out, so you are shifting seams and working with inlays. Only the German systems seem to track the problem to its source.
Quote from: TTailor on January 23, 2025, 11:00:56 PMI think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts, but no fitting information or information about taking or applying specific balance measures, whereas in the German texts I have, it is explained clearly.
If specific measurements for balance are required like *strap* they use a device or a measurement that has a nebulous end point.
It makes me think the British systems prefer to fix the essentials of fit on the body rather than pre emptively at the pattern stage.
I'd agree with you Terri, many British tailors are just concerned with getting up-and-running, the draft being merely a starting point. Their skill is in the fittings.
Not unique to British systems, many old tailoring books were pretty scant when it came to fitting advice. The books were written for the trade, so it was assumed that either instruction on such matters would be given to an apprentice by their master, or that the reader was already experienced in tailoring and fitting, and merely interested in the drafts outlined.
Having said that, there was often an apprentice section in the old Tailor and Cutter magazines that would address balance and all the other problems of fit.
Edit: guilds would also organise lectures for apprentices and intermediate tailors, where issues of fit were addressed.
Quote from: jruley on January 24, 2025, 12:17:28 AMThis idea seems to be peculiar to the German systems. English language sources talk about "balance" in a more general sense. The corrections for balance problems in English sources I've seen assume the garment has already been cut out, so you are shifting seams and working with inlays. Only the German systems seem to track the problem to its source.
Tailors around the world were, and are, aware of balance. It wasn't often discussed in literature for the reasons given in my last post. As you point out, there are different types of balance. The one addressed here is often termed 'vertical' balance; and I assure you that all British tailors are aware of how to fix the problem (though they might have their individual ways of doing it). :)
As for tackling the problem at source, good luck with that. Unlike many in the UK, I rely more on direct measurements. Measurements that, in theory, should address all balance issues. It's seldom the case though. NO system can account for all the nuances of an individual's figure. Which is why we have fittings in the first place.
Quote from: Gerry on January 24, 2025, 12:23:11 AMAs for tackling the problem at source, good luck with that. Unlike many in the UK, I rely more on direct measurements. Measurements that, in theory, should address all balance issues. It's seldom the case though. NO system can account for all the nuances of an individual's figure. Which is why we have fittings in the first place.
What I mean by "the source" is the German approach tells you exactly where to make a correction to the pattern. Of course figures are too variable to reduce this to a couple of measurements, and the coat's chest may be built up to varying degrees.
Quote from: peterle on January 23, 2025, 10:39:07 PMI would be glad when a nativ speaker would post more common English terms regarding this topic if there are any. Probably they are more easily to understand.
Well, since our English members seem rather adamant that there's only one balance, might I humbly suggest "upper chest length" and "upper back length"?
Just popped into my head, now everyone can tell me why it's wrong :)
Quote from: jruley on January 24, 2025, 01:04:47 AMWhat I mean by "the source" is the German approach tells you exactly where to make a correction to the pattern. Of course figures are too variable to reduce this to a couple of measurements, and the coat's chest may be built up to varying degrees.
It's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has
published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).
If you ever see experienced, British cutters at work, they will routinely add/subtract length as they draft, or work to cloth, based on experience. Likewise tailors of other nationality. Tackling things 'at source' is nothing new.
Quote from: jruley on January 24, 2025, 01:12:32 AMWell, since our English members seem rather adamant that there's only one balance, might I humbly suggest "upper chest length" and "upper back length"?
If you re-read my post, you'll see that I state quite categorically that there's more than one type of balance. What is being discussed here is generally referred to as 'vertical balance' (as I also mentioned). There's already a term for it:
https://youtu.be/3aL1WtblFqg?si=awm6vYrByZgWKbTX&t=1704
Quote from: Gerry on January 24, 2025, 01:35:10 AMIt's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).
Not at all. I didn't mean to imply that only German tailors, or German drafting systems, were able to correct balance issues. If it came over like that I apologize.
I'm looking at this as someone without formal training who is trying to learn more about tailoring. When peterle told me years ago to "add to the front balance" or "reduce the back balance" I was completely mystified. Dunc was also somewhat confused by these terms in his recent fitting thread.
I think it might be less confusing to English speakers to say "add 1 cm of upper chest length" rather than "add 1 cm to the front balance". Or "take 1 cm from the upper back length" instead of "reduce back balance by 1 cm". Maybe someone else has a better suggestion?
Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
I'm not sure it makes much difference what you call it... The main problem for novices such as ourselves is understanding the specific method of making a particular alteration. Whether you say "take 1 cm from the upper back length" or "reduce back balance by 1 cm" makes no odds in this regard (at least, not to me) - the question remains of exactly where and how best to do this. There's no shorthand that can compensate for the lack of experience.
For what it's worth, I've dealt with similar issues in shirt fittings, so I understand the general principles, but I also understand that there's more than one way to deal with them, and that the way I'd alter a shirt pattern might not be appropriate for a jacket.
Quote from: jruley on January 24, 2025, 02:59:02 AMQuote from: Gerry on January 24, 2025, 01:35:10 AMIt's not the 'German approach'. What you're highlighting is that a well know drafting system, that happens to be German, has published the pattern alteration needed to cope with balance. Please don't for one moment assume that this alteration, or knowledge, is unique to German tailors, simply because it isn't in other literature (see my previous post).
Not at all. I didn't mean to imply that only German tailors, or German drafting systems, were able to correct balance issues. If it came over like that I apologize.
I'm looking at this as someone without formal training who is trying to learn more about tailoring. When peterle told me years ago to "add to the front balance" or "reduce the back balance" I was completely mystified. Dunc was also somewhat confused by these terms in his recent fitting thread.
I think it might be less confusing to English speakers to say "add 1 cm of upper chest length" rather than "add 1 cm to the front balance". Or "take 1 cm from the upper back length" instead of "reduce back balance by 1 cm". Maybe someone else has a better suggestion?
Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.
No offence taken, Jim, I was merely being pedantic! :)
As much as I admire the English tradition, I'm more interested in Italian and French tailoring. And I have no problem with warranted criticism of British tailors (sometimes my fellow countrymen can be a backwards lot!). :P
Quote from: TTailor on January 23, 2025, 11:00:56 PMI think most English/British drafting texts never mention this, you are given a myriad of drafts,
I agree Terri, with the, almost, single exception of John King Wilson, the Art of Cutting and Fitting, which is incredibly clear and thorough.
But how diligent would you have to be to discover that book, published just after the WWII, written to give returning soldiers a foot up into the tailoring profession, after so much had been lost in the war. It has been reprinted in recent years with this interesting commentary byt the publisher:
"This work is in the "public domain in the United States of America, and possibly other nations. Within the United States, you may freely copy and distribute this work, as no entity (individual or corporate) has a copyright on the body of the work.
Scholars believe, and we concur, that this work is important enough to be preserved, reproduced, and made generally available to the public. We appreciate your support of the preservation process, and thank you for being an important part of keeping this knowledge alive and relevant."
The concept of balance must have been transmitted to apprentices, in their training, or imagine the crazy garments that would have walked the streets.
But, in this regard the German system is extraordinary in keeping the methods of balance foremost in print through into modern times.
The Mueller company was founded 1891 as a private trade school, so they work in pattern making and teaching for over 130 years. A long time for continuous developement.
Especially since the Fifties a main target was efficiency in the tailor trade. And solving fitting issues in the pattern stage before cutting is one way to reach this target. Measure twice, cut once.(think of severe balance problems in a yet cut checkered fabric. What a loss of time and fabric)
But this is common to all the German systems I know. Fifties pattern systems like the Lenassi or the Einheits system have incorporated the individual balance measurements in their drafts. And of course there is the contemporary Hoffenbitzer approach who takes individual pattern drafting by measurements to a new level.
I really would like to know, how other continental Traditions (Italy, France Spain) handle this or wether this is a German language area thing.
Well, a discussion which is endless. ;D
I learned drafting after Mueller (ladies).
First you draw after proportional measurements and then you alter this draft with the personal measurements,
You cut the pattern - you spread, you overlapp. As example: Here is a polo shirt for my husband. He has a big belly. So his front length is longer than proportional and his back is rounded - longer as proportional.
I overlapped in front 1.5 cm and I spread in back 1.5 cm. But the balance was about 3 cm. In the front I took the rest length out at armhole (here 1 cm, rotated belly "dart") and in back I inserted 1.5 cm with a second cut (which opened the back dart).
Now the shirt is balanced and fit his body
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z9hBbxFw/shirtbalance.png) (https://postimg.cc/Z9hBbxFw)
I add a pic of the finished shirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xchgPBnq/polohemd.png) (https://postimg.cc/xchgPBnq)
Quote from: peterle on January 24, 2025, 09:25:14 PMI really would like to know, how other continental Traditions (Italy, France Spain) handle this or wether this is a German language area thing.
That would be very interesting, I agree.
It has to be achieved, or think of the fitting disasters that must result, but I've never seen any discussion.
Can someone here on the forum tell how it is done in French tailoring? Or Italian?
The question of whether to use direct measures or proportions has been a topic in tailoring since the beginning of time (by that I mean from about 1800, and probably before that too, it is just that we don't know since literature from before that time is scarce.)
If you are interested in this early history I can recommend "The history of the art of cutting in England" (Edward Giles, about 1880s if I remember correctly.) There is a similar history of cutting in Germany from about the same time by Heinrich Klemm if I'm not mistaken, it is mentioned in the Giles book. German language readers may be interested in "Die neuesten Fortschritte der Zuschneidekunst" by Lilly-Britt Weiss, and interesting dissertation on the subject of the development of cutting systems in 19th century Germany.
Balance measures are probably known to all schools of cutting "western" garments all over the world. The idea that English cutting does not use them is incorrect. There are examples in the MTOC, the pocket Cutters practical Guide by FR Morris has direct measure cuts in it, there are many examples in the Tailor and Cutter journal all through its existence. An old system still in use today, Thornton, has both direct and proportionate balance measures. The Cutters practical guide was originally a mixed system with balance measures. They are there in the American literature as well, Hostek is an example.
The point of my admittedly somewhat rash comments is this: Balance measures are fine, but don't be fooled into thinking that you can get any use out of them without experience and an eye for a well fitting garment. German tailoring (and English and American too, at least in the 1800s) was very taken with the idea of "scientific" progress in cutting. In Germany, this is taken to extreme lengths in the 30s continuing into the 60s. It is almost exasperating reading some publications from this era, they are so sure of themselves and sure that everything else is unscientific crap. The fact of the matter is that you cannot mechanically follow a 1930s german draft, as little as you can a modern Müller draft or something from 1820, and expect it to give good results. The tools of the trade are these: The tape measure and your eyes and hands. It is impossible to calculate your way to a good pattern, you can never separate the tailor, the customer, the expectations, the fashion, the subjectivity, the cloth etc. out of the equation. It is a moving target, too: the customer moves during, between and after fittings. One day he feels bad and slumps in front of the mirror. At the next fitting he carries himself erect with pride because of some happy thing that happened that day. Which balance measure do you use then, to eliminate fitting issues at the drafting stage?
Quote from: TSjursen on January 25, 2025, 10:12:31 PMIf you are interested in this early history I can recommend "The history of the art of cutting in England" (Edward Giles, about 1880s if I remember correctly.)
Thank you for the recommendation TS. I found it easily on Internet Archive, link here:
https://archive.org/details/historyofartofcu00gile
Quote from: TSjursen on January 25, 2025, 10:12:31 PMIt is almost exasperating reading some publications from this era, they are so sure of themselves and sure that everything else is unscientific crap.
Just marketing really. Who's going to write, "Here's my patented snake oil method that doesn't really work?" :D
A little example of 19th century "snake oil".
For a number of years I've been making reenactment and living history clothing using Louis DeVere's ca. 1866 "Handbook of Practical Cutting on the Centre Point System". In this book DeVere defines "balance" as the difference between the "bust" and "curve" measures; i.e. the lengths of the orange and yellow lines taken from the top of the back seam to the "centre point" as shown in this figure:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sG5WwgcB/De-Vere-Basic-Measures-Color.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sG5WwgcB)
(For the curious, the "centre point" is 2/5 of the way along the natural waist from the center back to center front.)
DeVere applies this measure directly in his drafts, as shown here for a body coat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LhPjHxpH/De-Vere-Stooping-Extra-Erect.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LhPjHxpH)
and here for a vest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rKLxz5V5/De-Vere-Vest-Variations-in-structure.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rKLxz5V5)
And I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work (at least, not for me). After the first few coats I found I was better off using the "standard" balance for 80% - 90% of people. If someone needed a "stooping" or "very stooping" cut it was usually pretty obvious by looking at them.
This is not to say all balance measures are valueless, and is presented just for historical interest.
QuoteBalance measures are probably known to all schools of cutting "western" garments all over the world. The idea that English cutting does not use them is incorrect. There are examples in the MTOC, the pocket Cutters practical Guide by FR Morris has direct measure cuts in it, there are many examples in the Tailor and Cutter journal all through its existence. An old system still in use today, Thornton, has both direct and proportionate balance measures. The Cutters practical guide was originally a mixed system with balance measures. They are there in the American literature as well, Hostek is an example.
I didn't mean to suggest that the British systems don't use balance measures but that the information is buried and not as openly presented as how it is in the German sources I have.
Quote from: TTailor on January 27, 2025, 01:47:17 AMI didn't mean to suggest that the British systems don't use balance measures but that the information is buried and not as openly presented as how it is in the German sources I have.
I can only agree. Wir Andern - Mueller system which is an old Rundschau magazine 'competition' is still in print in Germany. Rundschau magazines and those older Der praktische Zuschnitt pamphlets abound with discussions on balance.
I am certainly not intending to point to any superiority here, but I would like to see the equivalent in English, American, French or Italian systems. And I welcome any members to point to specific examples, as it would add greatly to general understanding.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on January 27, 2025, 01:42:14 PMI am certainly not intending to point to any superiority here, but I would like to see the equivalent in English, American, French or Italian systems. And I welcome any members to point to specific examples, as it would add greatly to general understanding.
I doubt you're going to find much, Schneiderfrei. For centuries trade knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret within the medieval guilds. Although they were disbanded in England in the 18th century - pretty much vanquished by the 1750s - the same mentality persisted thereafter. Even today there are UK tailors who keep their cards very close to their chests.
Possibly the difference in Germany was that Rundschau etc eventually catered to industry, i.e. ready to wear, not just tailoring. So knowledge specific to the craft was shared for their benefit? It's interesting that when RTW became the dominant force in UK clothes retailing (from the mid twentieth century onwards), books on fitting start to appear (Styner & King Wilson). Mere conjecture on my part, though.
The tailor and cutter always published articles on fit. In the old copies I have, it's also common to see ads for their night-classes, correspondence courses and lectures. So the information was out there, it was merely kept within the tailoring trade, as it had always been (the T&C became the nearest equivalent to a regulatory guild over time).
Considering that the medieval guilds persisted longer in some countries on the continent, I can only imaging a greater dearth of
published information (the knowledge was still there).
Quote from: Gerry on January 27, 2025, 09:45:51 PMI doubt you're going to find much, Schneiderfrei. For centuries trade knowledge was kept a closely guarded secret within the medieval guilds. Although they were disbanded in England in the 18th century - pretty much vanquished by the 1750s - the same mentality persisted thereafter. Even today there are UK tailors who keep their cards very close to their chests.
We have had an Italian member of the forum, who described his experience with his Maestro. He felt that even after 10 or more years, he was not privy to the maestro's secrets.
Quote from: Gerry on January 27, 2025, 09:45:51 PMPossibly the difference in Germany was that Rundschau etc eventually catered to industry, i.e. ready to wear, not just tailoring. So knowledge specific to the craft was shared for their benefit? It's interesting that when RTW became the dominant force in UK clothes retailing (from the mid twentieth century onwards), books on fitting start to appear (Styner & King Wilson). Mere conjecture on my part, though.
I consider that you can see evidence of this in RTW fashion. The latest drafting boook I have from Rundschau is year 2000. The shirt drafts from back then began to produce garments, in terms of bodice fit, that you would see in the more high end RTW, and the likes of Charles Tyrwitt, in the 2010's.
Well overall, that is one reason why I lean on German drafting systems, they are simply accesible.
I began to think that on real reason why the tailoring industry collapsed in many countries was lack of transperency. If you don't understand why it is preferable to wear an individualised garment, you wouldn't even slightly question a bag made in Bangladesh by blind leper infants.
The Swedish method yonder years is the boy begins at 4-5 years of age. The process is all hand sewn. Tailors wouldn't dare have a machine or your name is ruined. So you sit on the bench and work at straight stitches. When you can sew straight then it is straight to making a pair of pants. From there a coat. In making a coat you are taught fitting, styles and fashions. During the fitting you learn how a coat should fit. Therefore, with your first coat you are learning balance and how to correct off balance. There is no reason to write this down. The child doesn't know how to read. The apprenticeship includes various body shapes.
Jim showed several diagrams. That kind of cut you can't slide the back up or down on the side seams. Modern coat cuts it is easy. A number of books show raising and lowering the back neck and/or raising and lower the neck shoulder points. Lateral balance (straight or crookening) on the front, is maybe 22 degrees angle, is also part of vertical balance. Poulin shows quite a bit about balance, including lifting and lowering the neck. Harry Simon's deals with balance in at least one of his books. Hostek deals with it. One tailor, forgot his name, in his video shows drawing a pattern mentioned when drawing the front to start higher or lower. Some tailors are really good at eyeballing its location (this is from experience). Believe Poulin said the difference can be 1 1/2 inches 3,8 cm. David Carlin shows quite a number of ways for adjusting balance. An old American journal, that I have/had, goes into a lot of details about balance. Tailor and Cutter books and journals certainly deal with it when discussing fitting. A straight line is shorter than a curved line. So a round back means the back length is longer for stooped. It is also a wider back. A chest jutting out is rounder than its straight back. Therefore the back is shorter and adding to the front is a good idea. The front width is wider. The extra wideness is taken from the back to keep the circumference. ATailor who wrote here said the strap measure is helpful. He also took the measure from nape to where the customer wanted the coat buttoned. There are a lot of variables. Inlays are necessary. Experience helps draw better patterns. The word balance isn't always clearly used. Some tailors chalk the pattern and cut added inlays. Some show the pattern chalked and chalked inlays. Beginners should have the inlays chalked before cutting.
Recently someone was selling a batch of late-fifties 'Snob' magazines on Etsy. I knew nothing about this publication, but clearly it was the Italian equivalent of the Tailor and Cutter. Better IMO, because it covered couture and a fair chunk was dedicated to Ladieswear. There were tailoring articles, fashion pages, 'join-the-dots'/regular drafts and completed drafts, drawn to scale.
No idea how long the magazine ran for, but clearly a wealth on info that definitely included articles on fitting. Were I made of money I'd have snaffled the lot (and spent a fair bit of my time on Google Translate, no doubt).
There was also a similar French magazine for the tailoring trade. Can't remember its name though.
Edit: Possibly L'Homme magazine? I just had a look at copies on Esty and it included drafts plus a 'Technologie' section, which covered issues of fit, by the look of things:
https://i.etsystatic.com/13710205/r/il/226481/2197240436/il_1588xN.2197240436_aigl.jpg
Quote from: Greger on January 28, 2025, 05:30:04 PMJim showed several diagrams. That kind of cut you can't slide the back up or down on the side seams.
Actually, you can (or at least DeVere thought so:)
(https://i.postimg.cc/62zgxQQS/Plate-16a.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/62zgxQQS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vxBjYdgm/Plate-16b.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vxBjYdgm)
Again, this is purely for historical interest. But it does show the idea of correcting for balance issues was known.
Quote from: Gerry on January 28, 2025, 09:09:55 PMThere was also a similar French magazine for the tailoring trade. Can't remember its name though.
It was called Le Maitre Tailleur. There was a copy on etsy a while ago. Very similar to the tailor and cutter, by the look of things.