Hello dear cutters and tailors,
my latest project is a casual SB two and half-button jacket (unstructured/unlined/cotton fabric/easy fit), side panel cut on.
Generally I'm quite happy with the fit of the muslin, I would make it a bit longer, change the lapel shape etc, but I think I'm still struggling with the front-back balance: the quarters "swing" forward and overlap, the lower back comes forward and the collar gaps in the back neck. (-> indicating front too short, back too long?) I have quite a rounded back/stooped posture/sloping shoulders.
Can you help what adjustments to try on the pattern?
Many Thanks!
Hello Pergamon,
I'm not very well qualified to comment on fitting, but some of the professionals here have been more than generous helping with my projects.
It would aid them greatly if you indicate the major construction lines on your muslin. Also, see if you can stand in a consistent posture with a background that has horizontal and vertical lines, such as cabinets or a door frame. Get someone else to take the photos, and take front, back, and both sides. Finally, stand relaxed in your normal posture.
Hope this is useful !
It would have helped to see the back too, but I'd say you don't have enough length on the back; specifically at the neck and shoulders. As a result you have gapping at the back and the fronts are being pulled backwards, in turn causing the front hem to lift off the body. It's best to sort out the balance before making other adjustments.
At the side seams put a mark. On the back put a mark half an inch down. Undo the side seam. Now match the marks and bast the side seams together. Mark your new shoulder line and bast that together. The back armholes are adjusted. And add to the bottom. The actual amount may be different and both sides may vary. You may need more width across the back. Perhaps the front a little narrower by moving the front outwards on the shoulder seam. Without fronts pinned together the front edges should hang parallel.
Profile and Back Pics would be fine.
And pics taken with a stand or by someone else. At the moment it seems you have a low left shoulder.
It also helps to mark the chest and waist line in the toile. This reveals inbalances quite good.
I don't have someone to take photos so I prop my phone up against my machine on the table and video myself slowly turning 360 degrees, pausing when in profile and when my back is to the phone. I then pause the playback at these points and take snap-shots.
Wow, thank you so far for all the helping comments. I will try these and post the results.
Hello again,
I am still struggling getting my head around vertical balance of a jacket.
Since I'm fitting a rounded back/stooped posture, I shifted up the back along the side seams, as the cloth has to go over a longer area. What happens is that the bottom of the musslin swings forward against the seat area and the front quarters collapse - when I pull the jacket down on the front, it sits quite nicely, but creeps back/up when moving. Please see my sketch, comparing "regular" posture and stooped posture.
My questions is: what alteration "rotates" the whole jacket forward? (as stated, lengthening the back did not do it).
Many thanks in advance!
It would help if you posted photos of where you are at the moment.
open:
(https://i.imgur.com/i8VRYhy.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/xMie5yK.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IfVOYuv.jpeg)
closed:
(https://i.imgur.com/K05pGLt.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KYs3gOg.jpeg)
(https://i.imgur.com/c70G4QN.jpeg)
Two things I can see because I've struggled with them myself:
1) it looks like you have a dropped right shoulder. There are a number of simple corrections for that you could apply.
2) if you are planning on shoulder pads you should have them pinned in place when fitting.
I'll defer to the professional members for other things.
Take heart, it's looking a lot better than some of mine did at this stage!
I don't see the gapping at the back of your neck as seen in your initial photos, so increasing the length has obviously helped. I'm guessing that the misaligned balance marks seen in profile are due to the back being shifted up (they're old marks?).
If you follow the centre-back seam all the way up you'll see it being pulled over to the right as we approach the neck. Likewise the neck seen from the front. That pull could be due to tension under the arm; which would make sense as your shoulder is dropped on that side, as Jim mentioned. Everything is dropping slightly on the right and needs picking up (with a corresponding adjustment to the armsyce). We need photos for both sides of your profile, incidentally, for comparison.
It's a little on the baggy side. I take it there's no side panel, but did you include a dart under the arm? Difficult to tell. Suppression can be tinkered with later, however, sorting out the RHS would be the place to start IMO. More experienced eyes will no doubt offer other suggestions.
Looks like you fall into the category of sway back. Don't remember much of that anymore.
I would request that your photographs be: Front, Back , Right side, Left side.
Sway back in German is Hohlkreutz. It's best tackled in the draft stage, Shifting the back waist point, to the left by 0.5 to 1.0cm.
Since this changes the draft radically, it's a difficult correction on the muslin.
See: https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,548.msg4300.html#msg4300 Down the Bottom.
"The Alteration for a belly pushed forward
(Hollow Back) and seat drawn in 3 cm
This alteration is extremely common in men's tailoring. The measurements may be completely normal and yet the jacket must be altered if this posture is present. For the sake of clarity, we have implied the normal cut in light lines and the alterations in lines of extra thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K14wr5NV/Zeichnung-43.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K14wr5NV)
Diagram 43
The back draft is marked out. Then the back pattern is held firmly at the shoulder point and rotated forward 1 ½ cm at the seat line – half of the amount of the drawn in seat. The back is marked out such that the neck ring and shoulder remain in their normal positions. The back pattern also pushes forward at the waist. The center front waist point and the waist dart move forward by this amount. Thus, the front part has become 1 cm too wide in the waistline. This 1 cm is removed from the side seam from the waist-line downwards. The side dart should lie as far forward as possible at the waistline. This makes the waist look good. Therefore, it is put forward by 1 cm. Marking out the front edge and the transfer of the shoulder is described in the preceding diagrams. We request you read them there.
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,504.msg4025.
"Since, in this jacket draft, one can readily remove any amount at t1 and g1 below the back width line Rb, for the sake of simplicity, for this normal posture, we did not move the centre back inwards at the seat height and we hollowed the centre back line only 0.5 cm at the waist from T1-T."
As others have said, it's best to make one change at a time. So I would recommend correcting for the dropped shoulder and pinning a couple of ready made shoulder pads in place. Then take a new set of pictures as Schneiderfrei suggested. We can see then just how swaybacked you are and if a new muslin is necessary.
Don't forget to keep track of all changes on your paper pattern.
Quote from: jruley on March 20, 2025, 03:29:37 AMDon't forget to keep track of all changes on your paper pattern.
Great reminder Greger.
What I couldnt find, yet above is the section from Lady's Tailoring, that remarks on how surprising it is, that only a very little forward push is necessary to meet the needs of even a considerable hollow back. 0.5mm is a good start.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 20, 2025, 10:08:37 AM0.5mm is a good start.
Surely you mean 0.5cm? :)
BTW I'm not Greger, nor do I play him on TV.
If you download Modern Tailor vol 1, a tailor and cutter book from the 40s and 50s, towards the end it has some fitting advice. For coats diagram 26 is worth looking at for the back.
Because you don't know how much to change added Inlays gives extra cloth for fitting adjustments. There is a bit about adding inlays in this book, too, several pages up.
The vest fitting part some of this applies to coats.
Lots to ponder.
Quote from: jruley on March 20, 2025, 01:32:37 PMSurely you mean 0.5cm? :)
BTW I'm not Greger, nor do I play him on TV.
So it was 5am. You are right on both counts.
:D
Coffee pot wasn't working? :)
Quote from: Greger on March 21, 2025, 11:41:09 AMCoffee pot wasn't working? :)
It was upside down...
Thank you all very much for your help so far, again I'm impressed by your expertise!
As I said in my initial post the goal ist to develop a basic pattern for very casual unconstructed/unlined garments, so no padding, canvasing, etc.
I do want to get the balance right, but I can compromise on clean lines/shape for the sake of practicality and mobility.
Quote from: Gerry on March 19, 2025, 05:42:33 AMIt's a little on the baggy side. I take it there's no side panel, but did you include a dart under the arm? Difficult to tell. Suppression can be tinkered with later, however, sorting out the RHS would be the place to start IMO. More experienced eyes will no doubt offer other suggestions.
Indeed there is no separate side panel, but I did include a dart underarm. I took that decision to simplify the pattern as much as possible (fewer seams on the interior to deal with)
Quote from: Gerry on March 19, 2025, 05:42:33 AMI'm guessing that the misaligned balance marks seen in profile are due to the back being shifted up (they're old marks?).
correct.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on March 19, 2025, 01:52:28 PMSway back in German is Hohlkreutz. It's best tackled in the draft stage, Shifting the back waist point, to the left by 0.5 to 1.0cm. Since this changes the draft radically, it's a difficult correction on the muslin.
I will try this in another muslin and post photos of all sides.
Again, thank you all for the input, I will get back as soon as I worked through your suggestions.
I think the dropped shoulder is a more obvious issue than the sway back. So why not correct it now, which can be done without cutting a new muslin? You should be able to use the same correction in the new pattern.
Quote from: jruley on March 22, 2025, 11:03:50 PMI think the dropped shoulder is a more obvious issue than the sway back. So why not correct it now, which can be done without cutting a new muslin? You should be able to use the same correction in the new pattern.
I will definitely look at that as well, thank you jruley
Following all 4 sides of the muslin, open and closed, with the dropped shoulder adjustment:
1,5cm taken in at the shoulder seam, armscye lowered accordingly
(https://i.postimg.cc/z379XFvQ/OF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/z379XFvQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RNbywCcQ/OR.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNbywCcQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MvGgcfjp/OL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MvGgcfjp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jnxm4Lgv/OB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnxm4Lgv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mzG0hd7v/CF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzG0hd7v)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3tkSrJ1/CB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3tkSrJ1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/34CzGgBd/CR.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/34CzGgBd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fkDGNrzX/CL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fkDGNrzX)
It's certainly looking better (especially at the back), but the right hand front needs picking up at the neck by a tiny amount. If you look at your lapel on the right, it drops down lower than the one on the left; and the balance lines show that the RHS front is swinging to the side a little.
Also, in profile the balance lines are slightly diagonal when the jacket is unbuttoned. Once the right-left imbalance is sorted, then you should probably pick up both fronts by a tiny amount at the shoulder to correct this. You might have to deepen the arm scyes by a corresponding amount.
The back seems to have too much length on the left-hand side, going into the shoulder tip. There's a pocket of cloth there and it could do with tightening up. Pin out some of the cloth along the seam, to give you an idea of how to shape it.
There's possibly still a tiny amount of tension at the back on the right hand side, under the arm? Difficult to tell, but it doesn't look too clean. That could just be the calico though, due to lack of drape.
Thanks again for your help so far.
Here is yet another set of photos with the suggested changes.
I'm not sure though, if actually I improved the muslin.
I decided to put on a collar to see if the gap is present. It does sit quite ok against the neck open, however buttoned the issue of my earlier post is visible again: the whole jacket seems to creep back- and upwards if you can say so, showing the collar standing away in the back and the front swinging forward (quarters overlapping) and the back pushing against the rear.
Is the mentioned swayback adjustment missing now?
I'm quite clueless now on how to continue - any suggestions would be very appreciated!
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1Wm5sTC/1OF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F1Wm5sTC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XprWVShj/2OB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XprWVShj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xXHSzGnB/3OR.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xXHSzGnB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nycv7y0F/4OL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Nycv7y0F)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pp3HrcbD/5BF.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pp3HrcbD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jw8VbZ4n/6BB.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jw8VbZ4n)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d7jPWq7B/7BR.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d7jPWq7B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bDYXWKkj/8BL.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDYXWKkj)
I'm not a coat maker so my 'expertise' ends here I'm afraid. My gut feeling is that your remaining problem is due to your posture. In leaning back your belly is being pushed out and it seems like you're having to pull the fronts onto your belly when buttoning, which is lifting them.
So perhaps it's time to tackle the sway back draft now? (at least a lot of your balance issues have been sorted out in advance). Though best to wait for more experienced voices to confirm that.