Hi All - hope the holidays were good. I am still plugging away at this, I recently completed a fully-lined casual jacket (sort of a Herrington style) and am pretty happy with some shirts I've completed, although I've only used heavier (7-10oz) denims which are pretty easy to work with. I am happy with the construction elements of trousers I make, but still not happy with their fit. I have been using the Aldrich patterns and making muslins, but then when I transfer over to the real material it's like I'm using an entirely different pattern. I just purchased the Mueller und Sohn trouser pattern set and I'll try that, but I am also interested in doing baste fittings. I was reading something from Richard Anderson and he mentioned that, what are your thoughts?
I think for the first few patterns from the Muller und Sohn book I'll make muslins just to make sure I'm in the ballpark, and the next step would be to cut out from the actual material leaving in a substantial SA all around, especially at the seat seam, and just baste the legs together and attach a simple waistband, either by hand or if I can get my machine to a tension that's easy to rip out when I'm, and adjust from there. And THEN, after fine-tuning I would rip apart, transfer adjustments to the pattern, and then start the construction in earnest - pockets, fly, etc.
Anyone take this approach? I even tried purchasing some heavier weight cheap twill fabric to mimic the real material, but still it might as well have been a different pattern comparing the toile to the real thing.
Evan,
Doing a baste fitting is definitely useful for being able to make changes to a garment. I would suggest basting by hand, taking 2 bites (stitches) on top of each other to secure the beginning and ends of the seam, and taking a stitch every inch or so along the seam line.
If you want to baste by machine don't mess with your tension, just increase your stitch length to its max. Longer stitches are easier to pull out but your machine will try to bunch up your fabric at the longest stitch length. You can counter this by 'taut-sewing' basically holding the seam behind the needle with one hand, and in front of the needle with another, and gently stretching to keep the fabric taught as it is fed through the machine. You shouldn't push or pull the fabric through the machine but hold it like a flat plane and let the feed dogs do the work, it takes some practice to get the hang of it. If machine basting at max SL, you should loosen the top tension so a stitch is still formed but there's enough slack for the thread to pass through the needle to the next stitch without pulling on the stitch it just formed (which makes it bunch up).
Basting by hand gives you the most control and in the long run trying to baste by machine might not really save you any time.
"And THEN, after fine-tuning I would rip apart, transfer adjustments to the pattern, and then start the construction in earnest - pockets, fly, etc."
This is a common technique for fittings in Theatre, on a muslin we can use a sharpie to mark alterations necessary for the final garment and transfer that information to the paper pattern.
What exactly do you mean the muslin acts like a different pattern compared to the fashion fabric? It's definitely best practice to use a similar weight/drape fabric as your fashion fabric to get a sense how it'll behave, but assuming you're accurate in cutting both out from the patterns they should behave similarly. Some fabrics are more slippery than others which can be frustrating to handle when seaming them together.
Ben
Machine basting with a bobbin leave one tension loose enough that so one thread is laying on top the cloth. That thread is very easy to pull out.
Hand basting develops hand sewing skills.
Thank you both for your responses.
To answer your question, Ben, I seem to get strange issues around my hips and the side seam. I'll make a muslin and it'll appear to hang nicely at my hips and be smooth across my backside, but then when I switch to the real material it will be baggy at the sides and back, then when I correct that I get gaping at the front pockets because I've tightened at the side seam so I just end up finding a balance of minimizing the pocket gape/flare and a clean side seam. Part of this may just be an issue I inadvertently introduced to my pants pattern, which is one I've iterated on now a few times. I say that because I just finished up a pair of pants for my brother, brand new pattern for him, and they didn't produce this hip issue.
So, I think I've got two problems: a bad pattern, and annoyance at having to make minor fit adjustments after many constructions steps are done. The first I'll solve by starting a new pattern this time using the M&S system, and the second I'll solve by doing a baste fitting prior to construction. The additional hand stitching practice will be a bonus.
I think there are two reasons why the muslin fits differently than the fashion fabric.
First a muslin usually has no pockets. No pockets, no gaping. The pockets reveal fitting issues.
Second when You use a shifty material for the muslin with a lot of bias give it will lay smoother on the body. A more rigid fabric will reveal fitting issues much more.
My experience is that a front dart can help with gaping pockets (strong thighs)
I think you may be right on the front dart. Prior to the last two pants which produced the gaping pockets I made some low-stakes practice pants from a pleated pants pattern - those pants, cheap though they were, didn't have the gaping pocket issue. Feeling confident, I made some pants from the pattern draft BEFORE I'd added the pleats and and lo and behold I get the gaping pocket.
I'd like to avoid front darts if at all possible, though. I'll see how this M&S pattern goes, I may post some progress shots of that to get some pointers.
Have you tried the Mansie draft (here):
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,56.msg215.html#msg215
It worked well for me, though it took some fitting (here):
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,389.0.html
I have not tried that one, looks like a roomy fit. I've finished drawing the M&S pattern, still need to double check some of the measurements but so far it looks nice and it may be a bit snug which could be good. I have straighter hips than I realized and looking at prior patterns there's more curve near the hips than maybe there should have been. I thought of myself as having strong hips/thighs, but I think that weight is distributed less on the sides than on the front and back, so maybe I was trying to address that incorrectly.
Front dart eventually? ;)
Ok here's the first muslin. Not bad overall, maybe I need to add additional ease around the thighs though (measuring my body relative to the pattern it appears there's 1-3" ease, but still that looks snug). And, I'll taper below the knee a bit, it's a little wide at the bottom I think. It is loose around the waist, which I know some of that will go away with pockets and waistband.
Can I avoid front darts by making a waistband smaller than the pants and easing on the pants to the waistband?
I'll post pattern pics in a minute.
(https://i.postimg.cc/75BVHrKZ/IMG-4849.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75BVHrKZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ppRYKL7d/IMG-4853.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppRYKL7d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RqcL3Hg8/IMG-4857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RqcL3Hg8)
Here's front and rear pattern
(https://i.postimg.cc/JH3RCqcj/IMG-4858.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JH3RCqcj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LY1HNRJC/IMG-4859.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LY1HNRJC)
It looks to me like I need to add to the back part around the thighs, that would reduce the strain at the front, plus taper the legs below the knee just a tad.
FWIW the material I plan to use is a 12oz moleskin, on the stiff side. I imagine it being a heavy winter pant for walks, so I want it on the trim side rather than a loose drapey fit.
The leg crease are very nice. However, you have a number of problems.
There's tension across the front in the crotch area. Note all those lines radiating from the crotch? The front fork of your pattern looks a little short so releasing it might totally solve this; but in profile the seam gets pulled forward as it covers the thighs, suggesting general tightness across the fronts. So you might also need to increase width here after making the fork adjustment.
The darts are a little too far to the sides. They should point to the fullest part of the seat. If they don't, then you create space at the bottom of the darts where there's nothing to fill it, and things look messy. A trick I learned from a 50s draft: at the crotch line of the back, mark the centre position between the fork tip and side seam. Mark the centre position of the waist and draw a straight line between these two points. Now mark in your main dart around said line. It will be at a diagonal, but don't worry: when the trousers are worn it straightens out significantly. Anyway, the dart invariably ends up pointing to the fullest part of the seat when using this trick. Give it a go?
Could just be an illusion due to folds of cloth, but the crotch looks dropped, especially at the back. Does it feel like you're waddling when you walk? Re-check your inside leg measurement.
You're better off fitting with a provisional waistband too. You've possibly got too much rise at the back. You're not noticing this because there's no band in place, so you're compensating and making things high to ensure coverage at the back.
Last year I watched some videos about the "top down centre out" method for fitting trousers. It's mostly aimed at people trying to get a decent fit from sewing patterns, especially if they're working alone. Many fitting issues would easily be circumvented with a bespoke draft, frankly, but it made me very aware just how significant the waistband actually is. Just as coat makers say everything hangs from the shoulders - and all provisional balance adjustments are made with that in mind - everything hangs from the waistband in a pair of trousers, as the videos demonstrate. Really, it's the first thing we should be fitting; and many, complicated adjustments that we make in the bespoke world could be totally avoided if we stopped treating the waistband as an afterthought.
Quote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMThere's tension across the front in the crotch area. Note all those lines radiating from the crotch? The front fork of your pattern looks a little short so releasing it might totally solve this; but in profile the seam gets pulled forward as it covers the thighs, suggesting general tightness across the fronts. So you might also need to increase width here after making the fork adjustment.
Agreed - so I'll lengthen the front fork and let out the seam a bit on the front side seam as well
Quote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMThe darts are a little too far to the sides. They should point to the fullest part of the seat. If they don't, then you create space at the bottom of the darts where there's nothing to fill it, and things look messy.
I did think that was odd, I just followed the pattern instructions, but I'll go your method.
Quote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMCould just be an illusion due to folds of cloth, but the crotch looks dropped, especially at the back. Does it feel like you're waddling when you walk? Re-check your inside leg measurement.
No, you're right, it is oddly low. How do I fix that? Do I fold up the pattern horizontally midway between the crotch and the waist then blend those seam lines, and then between the knee and crotch cut out and insert a matching length?
And your point about the waistband seems correct, I'll try to whip up a quick waistband for this to attach.
Thank you for the pointers, I'll try to work on this today.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 05, 2025, 11:42:54 PMQuote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMThere's tension across the front in the crotch area. Note all those lines radiating from the crotch? The front fork of your pattern looks a little short so releasing it might totally solve this; but in profile the seam gets pulled forward as it covers the thighs, suggesting general tightness across the fronts. So you might also need to increase width here after making the fork adjustment.
Agreed - so I'll lengthen the front fork and let out the seam a bit on the front side seam as well
Do one adjustment at a time, starting with the front fork. There's no point letting out the side seam if it's unnecessary.
QuoteQuote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMThe darts are a little too far to the sides. They should point to the fullest part of the seat. If they don't, then you create space at the bottom of the darts where there's nothing to fill it, and things look messy.
I did think that was odd, I just followed the pattern instructions, but I'll go your method.
Try the same spacing that you've used for your secondary dart, but make sure that it runs parallel with the main one. If there's still a problem then you might need to position it closer.
Using the method that I outlined, the darts can end up at a very slight angle, though they usually look fine; but if you're not happy it's a trivial adjustment to make them straighter looking. Either way, I find it a better starting point than simply dropping darts perpendicular to the waist.
QuoteQuote from: Gerry on January 05, 2025, 10:35:40 PMCould just be an illusion due to folds of cloth, but the crotch looks dropped, especially at the back. Does it feel like you're waddling when you walk? Re-check your inside leg measurement.
No, you're right, it is oddly low. How do I fix that? Do I fold up the pattern horizontally midway between the crotch and the waist then blend those seam lines, and then between the knee and crotch cut out and insert a matching length?
Retake your inside leg measurement and ensure that the crotch line is at that position, relative to the floor. Personally, I'd redraft things. It looks too low to sort out with a simple fix, but I'm not one for slashing patterns so others will be better placed to give advice. Myself, I don't cut out main drafts until the fitting process is over. Instead I trace the pattern onto lengths of grease-proof paper sellotaped together, and make the toile from that. I find it easier to make pattern amendments, and to keep track of them, by keeping the draft intact until I'm ready to commit to cloth. A little eccentric, but I do what I find easiest for me.
PS, because your crotch is dropped, you may find little difference in dart position having followed the method I outlined. The crotch line really needs sorting out first.
Trouser makers get away with all sorts when it comes to crotch position. A voluminous cut disguises many evils. If they made narrow-leg trousers more often, they'd realise that the crotch line is the equivalent of a high arm syce with coat makers.
I also think the crotch is to deep. Pull the pants Up till they are in the right position. You need a waistband for this.
I see different problems:
I think the seat angle of the underside is a bit to slanted.
And I think all folds of the pants point to the same area, the upper thigh. This tells me that the pattern does not provide enough room in this area and that you have to create some volume there. This area needs some width and some additional length.
You can add width by slashing and spreading the topsides.
To create length in this area I would recommend to raise the knee marks of the UNDERSIDE about 1 to 1,5cm. When resewing you have to ease in the fronts in the thighs area and the undersides in the calf area.
This should also reduce the folds of the undersides.
Probably a forward hip posture? For the Pics it would be better to let the arms hang and just raise the underarms.
Interesting - just to confirm, when you say topside you mean front part and underside is back part, right?
It wouldn't occur to me to align the marks like that to force easing in those parts but it makes sense, and that is similar to what Carlin seems to recommend for dealing with flat seat/bunching below seat
(https://i.postimg.cc/q60WdXfS/IMG-4860.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/q60WdXfS)
Yes,
Front = top side
Back = underside
It seems these are the usual English terms.
Native speakers, please confirm!
Quote from: peterle on January 06, 2025, 03:06:07 AMYes,
Front = top side
Back = underside
It seems these are the usual English terms.
Native speakers, please confirm!
Correct, amongst British tailors the terms topside and underside are the norm (though front and back are commonly used during fittings).
Tweaked the pattern to try and fix the issues, I think this next one is an improvement. Reviewing in the mirror myself it looks better, I'm setting up the phone to take these photos myself this time so they're not as good. Here's what I did:
-Tapered below the knee a bit
-Raised the crotch 1cm; not sure if this is the way you do it, but I just folded the pattern above the crotch (perpendicular to crease line) to reduce 1cm, then between the crotch and the knee made a cut across the pattern perpendicular to the crease line and inserted 1cm. Did this same way to front and back pieces.
-lengthened front fork about 1cm
-Let out center back seam 1.25cm, tapering to original line when it begins the curve
-Took in side seam of back part 1.25cm, tapering to original line 10cm down
-Raised knee notch of back part 1cm, eased pieces together as peterle had mentioned
-moved darts as Gerry had mentioned
There was still some tightness around the thighs so I gradually let out the side seams beginning around the hip line and merging with the original line by the knee line; at its widest point I'm letting out the seam 1cm.
So, do I say this is close enough to switch over to the actual material? If so, I may draw a new, clean pattern and this time correctly move the crotch up, and then proceed to a baste fitting with a waistband. I'll post photos in the next message.
I'll post photos in the next message
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yCS5KDs/IMG-4887.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yCS5KDs)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1g77Y3NF/IMG-4906.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1g77Y3NF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xk1FRzqY/IMG-4937.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xk1FRzqY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cvYN2HqP/IMG-4942.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cvYN2HqP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/svbrTWLp/IMG-4943.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/svbrTWLp)
Well, it's a lot better, isn't it. Still a bit of room for improvement, though; and I'm sure peterle will have some good advice, so hold off until you hear from him.
Personally, I'd still like to see a waistband on the trousers before signing-off on them. Waistbands have a tendency to sit where they want to sit, which is not necessarily where we anticipated. Consequently material can get pulled up or pushed down unexpectedly. You really should fit one to see if further adjustments will be necessary once the actual band is fitted. It will avoid nasty surprises. Plus the hang will be better, so it will be easier to determine what further alterations, if any, are required
With the secondary darts, try pointing their apexes towards the mid point at the crotch line, as we did with the main dart. Maybe putting them parallel wasn't the way to go (at least not with the original spacing): they still look as if they're going off to the sides. Also, run the stitching right to the edge of the cloth at the apex to avoid the dimples you're getting.
When I do trouser darts, I always start from the apex. With the needle down and foot up, I butt the fold of the dart against the needle about a quarter of an inch down (mark this point in advance). I then angle the piece anticlockwise by about one degree and bring the foot down. Reducing the stich length I then hand crank that quarter. The first stitch should just catch the edge of the cloth. From then on the work can be straightened and you continue to crank up to the apex in a straight line, right on the edge of the folded cloth. Once at the apex, increase the stitch length to where it was and machine as normal. It prevents dimples and by reducing the stitching just before the apex we add strength there.
Difficult to tell if the crotch still needs raising a little. Did you do a comparison of measurements? (inside leg of trouser vs actual inside leg).
I also think it is an improvement.
But I m also concerned about the waistband. Like Gerry says it is absolutely necessary to make the fitting with a waistband. Otherwise you will never know how the pants will hang and wether the crotch line is worn in the drawn position.
Bear in mind:you started to measure your side length at the upper edge of the hip bone, and you started to draw the pattern at this point. So You have to make sure this point(Side seam/waistline) is also at the upper edge of your hip bone when you wear it. Only then you can judge wether the crotch line is in the right height (and the darts have the right length).
The shifted knee marks seem to work.the folds got much less. But make sure when sewing, that front and back are joint flush about 6-7cm above and below the knee marks. The easig happens above and below this flush area. Ironwork will help a lot, even in cottons. Watch the vid about ironwork that was posted recently.
There's an easy check to do on oneself to ascertain whether the crotch is at the right height. Place your fingers under your crotch while wearing the trousers, right at the junction of all the forks. Simply lift the cloth until it touches your body. If the legs of the trousers don't rise significantly, then you're OK. Otherwise, the crotch is too low. This assumes that a waistband is in place, however.
PS You don't need to sew on a fully-canvased band or anything. A bit of calico on the fold will do. Just make sure that you at least overlap the fronts (no need to finish/bag the ends) so that you can pin the waistband closed.
Gotcha - I can whip up a quick waistband to try for a fitting. Thank you both for the very helpful advice.
Quote from: Gerry on January 06, 2025, 10:19:16 AMWith the secondary darts, try pointing their apexes towards the mid point at the crotch line, as we did with the main dart. Maybe putting them parallel wasn't the way to go (at least not with the original spacing): they still look as if they're going off to the sides. Also, run the stitching right to the edge of the cloth at the apex to avoid the dimples you're getting.
When I do trouser darts, I always start from the apex. With the needle down and foot up, I butt the fold of the dart against the needle about a quarter of an inch down (mark this point in advance). I then angle the piece anticlockwise by about one degree and bring the foot down. Reducing the stich length I then hand crank that quarter. The first stitch should just catch the edge of the cloth. From then on the work can be straightened and you continue to crank up to the apex in a straight line, right on the edge of the folded cloth. Once at the apex, increase the stitch length to where it was and machine as normal. It prevents dimples and by reducing the stitching just before the apex we add strength there.
For the darts, I did that a little hastily on the muslin. My usual routine on the actual material is to carefully sew them together by hand first using basting thread so I can be sure they're lining up the way I want, and I have a nice line of thread to follow when I'm machine sewing. After pressing that I go from the top of the trouser down to the apex but instead of doing a lock stitch I leave the threads loose at the end then tie off in a small knot so it's less bulky. Then I place it on a rounded ham and try to press/steam it into a nice shape with no dimple. Hadn't thought about reducing the stitch length down near the apex though, so I'll try that on the next one.
Quote from: peterle on January 06, 2025, 08:20:32 PMBut make sure when sewing, that front and back are joint flush about 6-7cm above and below the knee marks. The easig happens above and below this flush area. Ironwork will help a lot, even in cottons. Watch the vid about ironwork that was posted recently.
Good to know. I had spread the excess way further out; I made sure it lined up at the hem and at the hip, then lots of pins to spread it out evenly. Only 6-7cm seems tight, the trouser material is a fairly tightly woven cotton, I worry if my home iron will manage it. Is there a reason to keep it concentrated right around the knee instead of spread out further? Thinking through it now, I could see wanting to concentrate it on the back part right below the knee so you get that extra material right where the calf begins, but for the front part above the knee wouldn't I want it concentrated a little further up, maybe starting at the crotch line and going up 7cm? This sort of manipulation seems like a more advanced maneuver, I want to make sure I'm understanding it.
I will also do the other checks you both mentioned regarding outseam/inseam after the crotch movement, and yes I can confirm there is a little space between the crotch line and myself, but not too much.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 07, 2025, 02:28:43 AMI can confirm there is a little space between the crotch line and myself, but not too much.
So long as it's not restricting movement (and it shouldn't with this type of cut - but do test by taking some long strides), then a slightly dropped crotch shouldn't be a problem. After all, many Savile Row tailors get away with it! :-*
That said, I find that the inside leg has a slightly cleaner drape if the crotch is as high up as possible. I also need it in my case because I favour a narrow leg. Not skinning little things, I'm more into the parallel leg look of the late 50s (revived in the late 60s and mid 80s, at least here in the UK). Even though that cut has more ease than skinny drain pipes, unless the crotch is really high, leg moment is restricted and the waist gets pulled down when walking.
Yes, you got it right.
When you look at a Profile Pic you will see the profile of your leg is slightly S shaped, convex at the front thigh and the back calve and concave under the butt.
You want tight pants to look the same. So the easing happens at the convex areas. The knee line is the changing point of the S curve. That's why the parts are sewn flush in this area.
The convex calves make the lower fronts swinging forward, thus the hem gets slanted, and the back hem moves to the heel.
You can think of the easing as little darts that make the seam lines shorter than the center line of the pattern pieces.
Another question to the nativ speakers: when you say easing in do you also mean the longer part is to be eased in? In German we say" to keep short" and mean the longer part is to be kept short to match the shorter part.
Quote from: peterle on January 07, 2025, 03:04:13 AMAnother question to the nativ speakers: when you say easing in do you also mean the longer part is to be eased in? In German we say" to keep short" and mean the longer part is to be kept short to match the shorter part.
Yes, the longer part is eased (shortned) to match the shorter length of the other part.
Quote from: Gerry on January 07, 2025, 03:15:27 AMYes, the longer part is eased (shortned) to match the shorter length of the other part.
So: If you are shortening the long side, but not stretching the opposite side, does that mean you need to add a little length to the draft to account for this? Seems you would be losing some length on both the front and back.
Quote from: jruley on January 07, 2025, 03:34:29 AMQuote from: Gerry on January 07, 2025, 03:15:27 AMYes, the longer part is eased (shortned) to match the shorter length of the other part.
So: If you are shortening the long side, but not stretching the opposite side, does that mean you need to add a little length to the draft to account for this? Seems you would be losing some length on both the front and back.
I was using the term generally, as I believe peterle was when asking about the definition. Partly the reason we call it easing, I'm guessing, is because by gathering a longer length into a shorter length, it creates ease: the wider back of a shirt into its yoke; a sleeve into the armhole etc.
With respect to the specific alteration that peterle outlined, I'll leave him to answer that! ;) (though it was suggested as a correction for a fitting problem, so how could you account for that and add length in advance?).
Quote from: Gerry on January 07, 2025, 04:13:30 AMWith respect to the specific alteration that peterle outlined, I'll leave him to answer that! ;) (though it was suggested as a correction for a fitting problem, so how could you account for that and add length in advance?).
Well, this offsetting of knee notches seems to go with close fitting trousers. So when drafting a pair of those you could add a little length to the cuff. If you don't need it, it just makes a little longer turn up or you could cut it off.
But what do I know, I'm just an amateur trying to learn something :).
Quote from: jruley on January 07, 2025, 05:01:14 AMQuote from: Gerry on January 07, 2025, 04:13:30 AMWith respect to the specific alteration that peterle outlined, I'll leave him to answer that! ;) (though it was suggested as a correction for a fitting problem, so how could you account for that and add length in advance?).
Well, this offsetting of knee notches seems to go with close fitting trousers. So when drafting a pair of those you could add a little length to the cuff. If you don't need it, it just makes a little longer turn up or you could cut it off.
But what do I know, I'm just an amateur trying to learn something :).
It's more of a postural/figuration thing. If you read through all of peterle's posts in this thread, he thoroughly explains the reasoning and mechanics behind it. I wear narrow-leg trousers but have a very straight posture, so have no issues with this problem. So I'd say it's not something to be done by default when going for a narrow leg (for a better fit, simple iron work will suffice). Not unless the cutter has identified postural issues in advance, of course.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 07, 2025, 02:28:43 AMHadn't thought about reducing the stitch length down near the apex though, so I'll try that on the next one.
Forgot to mention, don't go overboard when reducing the stitch length. If you mess up the darts you'll need to be able to unpick the stitching (plus you can create puckering if the stitches are too close).
As I understand it, no need to add additional length, nor will you be left with anything excess. The front and back parts still line up at the hem and waist, you're only offsetting the knee notch then easing in excess; with back part knee notch placed intentionally above front part knee notch, the excess is on the back part below the knee, so it curves/bulges a bit to accommodate the calf, and above the knee on the front part, to accommodate the thigh. Thankfully I recently did a few shirts that had me easing in parts (sleeves to armscye, lower back part to back shoulder yoke), so I now have some practice/comfort with that.
Any reason not to ease on the legs to a waistband? Following the pattern guidance I'm left with a front part width at the waist of 22.5cm, at the back part (excluding darts) of 21.6cm, so 44.1cm total whereas my measured 1/2 waist is 43.1cm, which again according to the pattern guidance this 1cm of ease is recommended. But, they don't go into how to draft the waistband. In the past I've simply made a waistband equivalent to the waist of the front and rear parts together, but then it doesn't fit quite right - either too loose at the waist or too tight at the hips. My thought is this time make the waistband equivalent to my measured waist, and ease in the excess between the side seam and center front (NOT the back).
Quote from: EvanTA on January 07, 2025, 05:45:48 AMAny reason not to ease on the legs to a waistband? Following the pattern guidance I'm left with a front part width at the waist of 22.5cm, at the back part (excluding darts) of 21.6cm, so 44.1cm total whereas my measured 1/2 waist is 43.1cm, which again according to the pattern guidance this 1cm of ease is recommended. But, they don't go into how to draft the waistband. In the past I've simply made a waistband equivalent to the waist of the front and rear parts together, but then it doesn't fit quite right - either too loose at the waist or too tight at the hips. My thought is this time make the waistband equivalent to my measured waist, and ease in the excess between the side seam and center front (NOT the back).
What you're suggesting is fine, especially with such a trivial discrepancy. In fact it's common for bespoke trouser makers to ease in a little excess cloth over the front pockets, to prevent them from splitting open.
With waistband. What do you think? Reviewing in the mirror shifting my weight around and letting the pants settle in, the waistband sat level across me. I see in the photos it shifted a bit where it points down at my stomach, but mostly it seems to sit level. Overall I'm happy, maybe I trim .5-1cm off front and back patterns around the side seam, as shown in the fourth photo in red.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bsxhFTht/IMG-4948.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bsxhFTht)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdQyZ95J/IMG-4951.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdQyZ95J)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wTh2Pws/IMG-4953.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wTh2Pws)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LgZHXKwC/IMG-4951.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LgZHXKwC)
Plus, I could have done a better job easing in the front. And I think I'll focus the easing right above the pocket per the advice.
Quote from: jruley on January 07, 2025, 03:34:29 AMQuote from: Gerry on January 07, 2025, 03:15:27 AMYes, the longer part is eased (shortned) to match the shorter length of the other part.
So: If you are shortening the long side, but not stretching the opposite side, does that mean you need to add a little length to the draft to account for this? Seems you would be losing some length on both the front and back.
Some tailors add length and shrink it in. Some muscles the way they are used they expand and shrink and you want the cloth there for the expansion where it expands. The thigh area.
Some people have large calfs. One method is adding width to both sides of the back, perhaps a little length. Either way adds adds a little bit of length to the seam. One method doesn't lengthen the leg.
Some tailors add length for the knee bending.
Coats have lengths added. Depends on the need. The back shoulder is wider than the front because of the curve of the back. Back armhole is little longer. Below the armhole is a little longer. Sleeve caps as much as can be shrunk in. Some guys have bigger muscles which expand under pressure. Shrunk sleeve cap means the room for expansion is there.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 07, 2025, 12:38:11 PMPlus, I could have done a better job easing in the front. And I think I'll focus the easing right above the pocket per the advice.
The're starting to look nice, well done! Obviously they'd be a lot better with a properly formed center front/fly and waistband etc, but that's for the real thing and not a toile.
The darts are looking much cleaner. As you say, there's a bit of unevenness at the front. Chalk either side of it, unpick the waistband there and do whatever it takes to make things look even (baste or pin in advance of machining). You can leave that for the real thing though.
I'd possibly raise the crotch a tiny amount. It would probably give a nicer shape at the back, just below the seat. it's up to you though, as things stand they look nice.
My only concern is that your fly gapes, so you might get a wee bit of tightness across the front when you sew the proper thing.
How you've done it isn't wrong (it's how I sew my flies for toiles), but it's better to do it more like a concealed zip, even if you're not using one. Sew the crotch curve up to the notch, tack back-and-forth there for strength, increase the stitch length so that it's suitable for a baste, and continue stitching up the centre fronts to close them. You then press the seam open (with calico you can use the nail of your first finger to do this), position your zip right in the middle of it, and sew through all layers. Then rip the basted, CF section down to the notch. The fly will look more concealed and you'll avoid the aforementioned (possibly problematic) gaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DSkq1pDf/Fly-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DSkq1pDf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/18GDBchG/Fly-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/18GDBchG)
The above toile has been through the wars, so you'll have to excuse its knackered condition! I was also too lazy to change over to a zipper foot, hence the uneven stitching (not that it matters here). Hopefully you get the idea though.
The knee notch solution refers to this specific fitting problem. But generally it's also true that the tighter the trousers the more manipulation(ironwork) is necessary.
Jruley you can look on it this way:shifting the knee notches makes two alterations in one step. It adds length to the upper front and it adds length the lower back and shortens their counterparts. Both alterations sum up to the original (measured) side length. So there is no need for elongating one pattern part.
EvanTA:I also think that the waistline should be eased in to the waistband. It cares for a certain grip of the waistband. That's also the reason why I think you should not shave off at the top side seam.
But I think you can shave off a tiny bit on top of the seat seam. Maybe it is just the pic, but it seems the waistline forms a slight Chevron there. Make sure the seat seam and the waistline meet in a right angle.
Another tip for the back: give the seat seam in the curve area a good stretch with the iron before sewing. This will smooth the area of the lower butt.(Background: with the stretching you create a concave form wich is needed in this body area).
Overall I think the trousers improved a lot.
It's hard to tell wether the front folds result from the zipper installation or the pattern, so you better sort that out like Gerry already wrote. Bear in mind, the pockets will add some volume in this area so don't make it too tight.
Thank you all for the tips, I'll fuss with it a bit more, my goal is to be cutting out the material on Thursday so I still have some time to fine tune. Wife is away this weekend so I'll have more time than usual to set aside and try and work on this next pair.
For a baste fitting, how far in the construction should I go you think? No pockets I imagine, but do I do a waistband and a zipper, more or less as I've done here for the toile? I'm fine with the extra work, I just worry about over-working the material, but then if I have to undo and rework stuff after I think I'm done then I'm REALLY over working the material. Not sure where people usually draw the line for a baste fitting.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 08, 2025, 01:15:59 AMThank you all for the tips, I'll fuss with it a bit more, my goal is to be cutting out the material on Thursday so I still have some time to fine tune. Wife is away this weekend so I'll have more time than usual to set aside and try and work on this next pair.
For a baste fitting, how far in the construction should I go you think? No pockets I imagine, but do I do a waistband and a zipper, more or less as I've done here for the toile? I'm fine with the extra work, I just worry about over-working the material, but then if I have to undo and rework stuff after I think I'm done then I'm REALLY over working the material. Not sure where people usually draw the line for a baste fitting.
With a waistband it really varies. Some firms just sew on a provisional waistband (sometimes elasticated!), because they just want to get up-and-running with a general assessment. Others will baste a partially constructed band on (no lining). Flies are often hand basted in place with a large backstitch.
Because you've done a toile, you could simply go ahead with a lot of the details. And that would be my approach (after all, what's the point of the toile if you repeat the same procedures on your cloth). That's not to say you won't encounter issues, though, because different cloths behave differently.
However, before you consider committing to cloth, IMO you really need to check what that gaping fly is doing, if anything, to the fit. A little time spent now could save you a lot of heartache later.
PS the elasticated waistband isn't as daft as it sounds. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about bands sitting where they want to sit; and everything hanging from the waistband. The advantage of elastic is that if cloth is being pushed down or pulled up, the baste is broken at those points then the material and/or band is simply adjusted. The elastic holds everything in place (maybe with the help of a pin or two) and the seamline's new position is marked.
I've never done it, but it makes sense. It's a very quick way of getting right the balance and rise. Can't remember which firm I saw doing this. Pretty sure they were on the Row, though (West End at any rate).
I had gone into this thinking I needed to do a baste fitting because the switch from toile to real material always felt so stark, but it may have actually been the case I was rushing through the toile fitting in the past.
I'll play with the fly a bit to make sure I'm not getting a gaping issue there and keep working a few other small parts until I'm pleased (raising the crotch, a little more carefully easing on the waistline, double check the waistline at the CB seam per peterle's advice).
What you're saying about the elastic waistband makes me wonder if I should make one specifically for toile fittings that I could reuse. The waistband wouldn't change much across pants, would be handy to have one done up I could attach as needed.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 08, 2025, 02:44:42 AMI had gone into this thinking I needed to do a baste fitting because the switch from toile to real material always felt so stark, but it may have actually been the case I was rushing through the toile fitting in the past.
I'll play with the fly a bit to make sure I'm not getting a gaping issue there and keep working a few other small parts until I'm pleased (raising the crotch, a little more carefully easing on the waistline, double check the waistline at the CB seam per peterle's advice).
Well done, that sounds like a sensible plan. Yes, by the sound of things you hadn't spent enough time on your toile when you committed to cloth.
QuoteWhat you're saying about the elastic waistband makes me wonder if I should make one specifically for toile fittings that I could reuse. The waistband wouldn't change much across pants, would be handy to have one done up I could attach as needed.
That's exactly what this company did. They just sewed on a couple of hooks and bars at the fronts of the elastic to secure it, and basted it in place. I think they doubled back the ends of the elastic, to give more support to the hooks and bars. Can't remember, but that's what I'd do. I'd probably sandwich a bit of interfacing in between the doubled back elastic too.
You wouldn't be able to have much of a cinch though. It would be murder trying to gather any quantity of cloth into a elastic waistband when basting (at least by hand). It would probably distort things in places too, which isn't going to help fitting evaluations. Probably why I've never tried it.
That said, I can't see it being a problem if the circumference of the waist a little higher up from the seamline is used.
Possibly posted elsewhere but I couldn't quickly find it, this video series on trouser ironwork seems useful to drop into this thread. Made by an active forum member, Thom Bennett.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozy9iF54c08
Very helpful, along with the other video on shaping fabric posted here:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,1569.0.html
Quote from: peterle on January 07, 2025, 10:43:43 PMJruley you can look on it this way:shifting the knee notches makes two alterations in one step. It adds length to the upper front and it adds length the lower back and shortens their counterparts. Both alterations sum up to the original (measured) side length. So there is no need for elongating one pattern part.
Thank you. I don't think I explained it very well.
If I understand correctly, above the knee you ease (or "full") the front part onto the back. This takes a little bit of length from the front. If you don't stretch the back, its length isn't changed by this step.
Below the knee, you ease (full) the back onto the front. This step shortens the back a little, but does not change the front length.
Yes both parts line up at the hem. But if no stretching was done, they should each be a little shorter than before you started. Correct?
It's only a trivial amount, maybe half a cm - but it would affect the amount you need to add for turn up at the hem.
Sorry for the digression, I shouldn't interfere with Evan's fitting. :)
Quote from: Gerry on January 08, 2025, 03:21:48 AMThat's exactly what this company did. They just sewed on a couple of hooks and bars at the fronts of the elastic to secure it, and basted it in place. I think they doubled back the ends of the elastic, to give more support to the hooks and bars. Can't remember, but that's what I'd do. I'd probably sandwich a bit of interfacing in between the doubled back elastic too.
Gerry: Do you happen to know how much shorter they cut the elastic than the customer's waist measure?
Do they sew the elastic waistband on, or cut the trousers with some extra length above the waist and slide the elastic waistband on top? Seems like that would allow adjustments for different hip heights which could be marked with chalk.
Quote from: jruley on January 08, 2025, 08:24:47 AMGerry: Do you happen to know how much shorter they cut the elastic than the customer's waist measure?
Do they sew the elastic waistband on, or cut the trousers with some extra length above the waist and slide the elastic waistband on top? Seems like that would allow adjustments for different hip heights which could be marked with chalk.
I don't know the details Jim, sorry. All bespoke tailors leave inlay at the waistband seam, so there's always scope for adjusting the waistband height/balance. I'm pretty sure the elastic was basted to the trousers, which suggests that it wasn't significantly smaller in circumference.
As I mentioned, the way I'd do things is to take a circumference measurement up from the seamline, at the same height that the top of the waistband will be. Just use that? That's pretty much how I do things anyway, with actual waistbands. Otherwise the tops of the bands are too loose and just slip down (unless a fitted band is cut, of course).
That might sound a little wishy washy, but elastic being what it is it'll stretch lower down and simulate a fitted band. So even if there isn't significant cinch at the top of the waistband, it shouldn't slip. I'm guessing that's why they use this method.
On the trousers I started before getting the flu (I've done nothing but watch TV boxsets the past week!) my intention was to cut a band of slightly smaller circumference on the cross-grain, then stretch the lower edge a little with the iron, to marry with the trousers. This would simulate a fitted band without all the hassles of pattern/pile disruption; and I've sort of done this in the past. The cloth is a twill, which can sometimes have a little give along the warp, so I might even be able to cut the band on grain. Not a problem if it doesn't work, I bought additional cloth just in case (I can always go back to my normal way of doing things, and I have drafted a fitted band just in case).
Made all those adjustments I mentioned above (raised crotch another 1cm, redid the fly, cleaned up where waistband connected to CB seam and where waistline at front is eased onto waistband) and all looked good so I'll transfer those changes to the pattern today and get that cleaned up so I can get started cutting out tomorrow. I'll see how the material responds to some iron work. I have a feeling it won't with it being a heavy moleskin, but we'll see. No big deal if it doesn't, I see these pants ending up more casual, closer to jeans. I'm giving them "western style" front pockets and inset pockets with a flap on the rear. But, after that I really want to try this pattern and some heavy iron work on a lighter, charcoal wool I got from the remnants pile at B Black and Sons. I'll post some pics of the moleskin pants when I'm done.
Thank you all for the very helpful advice, I feel like I learned a lot from this exercise.
Quote from: EvanTA on January 09, 2025, 02:44:00 AMI'm giving them "western style" front pockets and inset pockets with a flap on the rear.
It's always a good idea to mark the shape of the pocket on the toile then wear it, to check if the positioning works. Erasable pen is good for this. It's more visible than pencil and disappears with the heat of an iron; so if things don't look right you can always 'rub it out' (so to speak) and start again. Pilot is a good brand of pen.
In theory, cross-front pockets should only go up to the crease line of the leg and no further. Otherwise the trousers won't fold properly and a crease will appear in the mouth of the pocket over time.
This guideline (it's definitely not a rule) is often broken, however, with jeans. Nobody puts creases in them and they tend to get flung over a chair/whatever, so correct fall on a hanger isn't an issue. With dress trousers though, it should be a consideration. And there are more formal forms of cross-fronts (frogmouth for example).
Obviously this can restrict the width of the pocket, so the typical thing of leaving all the seams on the underside/back isn't advisable: seams need to be on the topside/front pattern too, which widens our pocket by a seam's width. That might not sound like much, but it can mean the difference between a functional pocket and an adornment.
You'll probably opt for more formal pockets when working with the wool you mentioned. And as you say, your moleskin ones will be more like jeans, so the above isn't critical. Worth knowing about, though.
Glad the fitting went well. Good luck with the sewing!
Quote from: jruley on January 08, 2025, 08:18:15 AMIf I understand correctly, above the knee you ease (or "full") the front part onto the back. This takes a little bit of length from the front. If you don't stretch the back, its length isn't changed by this step.
The knee notches are offset, don't forget. So relative to the front knee position, the back
is shortened. That tidies up excess cloth under the seat.
QuoteBelow the knee, you ease (full) the back onto the front. This step shortens the back a little, but does not change the front length.
It doesn't shorten the back, it lengthens it. Because the knee notch was taken higher then, relative to knee position of the fronts, there is more actual length on the backs across the calves.
QuoteYes both parts line up at the hem. But if no stretching was done, they should each be a little shorter than before you started. Correct?
Easing is done locally, at the seam. Think about the back of a shirt that is wider than its yoke. Once gathered into the yoke, is there now tightness at the waist? No, and it's the same here: away from the seam the fronts are unaffected and retain their length. The backs, however, have the same full length as before, only the ratio of length above vs below the knee has changed. There is literally less length above the knee and more below.
Technically, above the knee no actual length is added to the front; but relative to the back there is more length. To create actual length, ironwork is utilised. What the above alteration does, apart from tidying up folds under the seat, is to help create shape that better replicates the leg structure.
Quote from: Gerry on January 09, 2025, 09:42:38 PMEasing is done locally, at the seam. Think about the back of a shirt that is wider than its yoke. Once gathered into the yoke, is there now tightness at the waist? No, and it's the same here: away from the seam the fronts are unaffected and retain their length. The backs, however, have the same full length as before, only the ratio of length above vs below the knee has changed. There is literally less length above the knee and more below.
Technically, above the knee no actual length is added to the front; but relative to the back there is more length. To create actual length, ironwork is utilised. What the above alteration does, apart from tidying up folds under the seat, is to help create shape that better replicates the leg structure.
Thanks, that explains it very well. Any length lost is at the seam, the crease lines retain their original length. Or may gain length if they are stretched, but I was thinking of materials such as cottons which won't take traditional ironwork.
The term "length" can be used in multiple ways. What I was thinking of was the vertical distance (measured along a straight line, not a curve) from the bottom of the waistband to the hem line. Let's call this distance "L" for short. Not to belabor the point, but since the trouser legs are now slightly S shaped I think L will be slightly shorter than the "true length" as measured along the front and back crease lines - unless these are made longer through stretching (ironwork).
I'm very pleased with the final result! Maybe a tad tight around the hips, but otherwise these feel great. The quality of the fabric helps, it's a wonderful feeling moleskin, not sure the mill it just said "12.5oz moleskin - Japan".
Thank you all again for the help, it really helped me advance to another level.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rDXjFxPD/IMG-4968.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rDXjFxPD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfGVZqsS/IMG-4969.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfGVZqsS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdq95ccc/IMG-4970.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdq95ccc)
Well done, they look very professional! Yes, there's a wee bit of tightness around the hips. But nothing that makes them unwearable. I think the gaping fly lulled you into a false sense of security with respect to ease across the hips. At least you know what to do to your pattern for the next pair.
Well done!