Some may recall the jacket which resulted from this thread in 2016:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,361.90.html
Eight years later the jacket is doing fine, but I've put on a little weight and it is uncomfortable to button. I updated the pattern last year for a little more room in the waist and also an overall looser fit (increased width but not length). I also used a front zipper without removing the button stand, which gave some slack in the chest. That resulted in a nice corduroy version (not shown) which I've gotten a lot of use out of since.
The latest version (shown here) uses the same pattern, but is made of a heavy woolen overcoating remnant. I'm looking forward to breaking it in this winter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QV75ZfrC/DSC-3574-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QV75ZfrC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6yNZWC90/DSC-3575-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6yNZWC90)
I really like this style for spring and fall wear. With the short tail and the "action back" it's very convenient for driving. But on really cold days, I think I would like something longer, and maybe with hand warmer pockets.
I have some more overcoating, in a color called "Garter Blue", a little lighter shade than navy. I'm thinking of making another one, long enough to cover the butt - I already have a knee length coat.
I could probably just extend this pattern and come up with something usable, but I'm interested in other ideas. Don't think I need the pleated back and belt, and the separate skirt piece under the belt might be troublesome if made longer.
Thinking about trying the "Viennese seam" back style shown here:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,1557.0.html
I would like the result to be form following, but not skin tight.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Jim
If you click on the photo it will expand for a better view. Second from right is a similar type of jacket, but full length. No front darts, so it's not going to be overly fitted. I'm guessing Amies would have called it a ghillie collar.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-hardy-amies-mens-fashion-1962-mens-fashions-designed-by-hardy-amies-19538701.html (https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-hardy-amies-mens-fashion-1962-mens-fashions-designed-by-hardy-amies-19538701.html)
I intend to make this jacket in the new year (I love the look). I even committed to buying some Melton the other week (ouch it was pricey!), so I have to make it now.
I like that look as well. Maybe a little looser, and just a little longer; and I'll probably go with a zipper just for practicality. Maybe I can learn how to do a concealed one...
This is the cloth I have, bought many years ago for historical reenactment use. It's from Hainsworth's "overcoating" line.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BXGD7Kbd/DSC-3576-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXGD7Kbd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xcymw1bq/DSC-3578-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xcymw1bq)
The fronts and the sleeves are more elegantly done on the Amies coat, but it's basically a donkey jacket minus the PVC shoulder patches.
If you made the hems straight, rather than the fronts sloping away, it would probably give you the illusion of length that you are after.
Google around for 'Melton chore/donkey jacket' and you'll see plenty of modern interpretations of The look.
This sort of thing:
https://communityclothing.co.uk/products/arthur-jacket
https://www.drakes.com/products/navy-melton-wool-donkey-jacket
I think that style would flatter a man with a strong chest and broad shoulders. That doesn't describe me, so I want to build in some shape. A little waist suppression helps hide my love handles.
OK - here is my first draft of a body pattern. Fronts are extensions of my existing casual jacket pattern. Backs developed from the "Viennese seam" manipulation to eliminate the separate yoke.
Darts in the back are just for reference, to remind me how much to ease and shrink.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sQRX1DHv/DSC-3580-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/sQRX1DHv)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XGcv5Stx/DSC-3581-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGcv5Stx)
Other than the uneven hem, does anyone see an obvious problem at this point?
I made a toile out of lightweight canvas drill. Here I am wearing it buttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nX0yrvpX/DSC-3595-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nX0yrvpX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TLWFtFmb/DSC-3596-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TLWFtFmb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/R3Y2Q439/DSC-3597-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3Y2Q439)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kVGkbBgf/DSC-3598-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVGkbBgf)
And here unbuttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JySdHxgz/DSC-3599-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JySdHxgz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bS96MhvZ/DSC-3600-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bS96MhvZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QV7n0fc/DSC-3601-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QV7n0fc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qhnDsnVX/DSC-3602-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qhnDsnVX)
I know the hem will have to be levelled. What does everyone think of how it hangs?
To get the right impression of the hang, it would be better to keep the arms hanging naturally for the pics.
Your neck hole is quite tight. It could be wider for an overcoat. It's good to secure the neckline with a stay stitch to prevent stretching out while fitting.
You have a hanging right shoulder you could consider to adress in your pattern.
Looking on your pattern I recognise:
You shifted the shoulder seam for the yoke forward in your original pattern, and didn't reshift it for the new one. Be aware of that. ( The original placement would shorten the dart, thus less amount ist to be eased in)
And I think you have to reconsider the waist surpression. Waist surpression means the largest amount to take out is at the waist line. So you have to establish the right waistline throughout first and than you have to consider where to take out: keep in mind you front dart is first of all a chest dart, it should create enough width at chest level. You also incorporated a waist surpression (btw seems not to aim to the waist line). Skip that. The slight belly does'nt allow a waist surpression in this area. Draw the dart lines dead straight from the tip to the hem. (keeps the chest dart, eliminates the surpression)
it seems to me that the right side is not only hanging
(https://i.postimg.cc/mhWK40LC/balance2.png) (https://postimg.cc/mhWK40LC)
- the right hip is going out and so the left is straighter. With you hands hanging down, pinch how much fabric you can grab right and left. I think left will be more.
But first of all correct the balance lines. The front is going up
(https://i.postimg.cc/9zv5DrYR/balance.png) (https://postimg.cc/9zv5DrYR)
and the side seam swings a bit to the front ( see pic).
Do you plan shoulder pads?
lg
posaune
forgot: See the neckline in the back view. There the jacekt is climbing up the neck. As Peterle wrote enlarge the neckhole (clipp with little snips at the left neck , to see how much it will be) then the hang will be better.
Thanks to both peterle and posaune for your comments!
For peterle:
The jacket pattern was developed from shirt patterns which already incorporate corrections for the dropped right shoulder, spinal scoliosis, and forward hip posture (these threads:
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,238.0.html
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,316.0.html
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,354.0.html)
If you think it needs more shoulder drop we can work on that, but only if really necessary.
I actually remembered to tape the neckhole this time! That's one reason it's tight :). I don't plan to wear this over a suit jacket, but I agree a looser collar might be more comfortable.
I can't change the shoulder seam position without making new fronts. If it won't affect the fit I will leave it for the time being.
If I understand correctly, the front darts should be ripped out and resewn as straight lines? I will do that and then another try-on.
For posaune:
You are right about the hip, my spine slants from left to right. Maybe the shape of the lower skirts needs to be tweaked?
Looking at the old pictures of the jacket fittings I think I the balance looks similar. Do you think it needs more front balance length? How much to try?
I am not planning on shoulder pads.
I have ripped and re-sewn the front darts. The belly is less obvious, and I think it helped the balance as well.
The sad part is, I think we went though this with the jacket years ago. I still had both sets of darts marked on my old pattern and used the larger ones :( .
Will post pictures as soon as I can.
I reconsidered you fronts and the strange dart form. I'm sure it derives from elongating the pattern. The kink in the chestline tells me the original pattern was yet tweaked. The slashed dart opened by pinching at the armhole. The opened dart ended at the hem of the old Jacket. You elongated the dart with tow parallel lines. This created the "too low surpression effect".
To find out how to elongate the dart lines correctly, you have to look at the dart of the original pattern before tweaking.
Presenting Version 1a.
First, what changed?
The front darts have been straightened (faint red lines). I'm sorry, but I could not be sure which dart I used for the original jacket.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mtW3BWWk/DSC-3603-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtW3BWWk)
A small wedge has been taken off the right side seam below the waist line on the side piece. This was to even up the skirt width at the hem
(https://i.postimg.cc/zyJnHwB1/DSC-3604-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zyJnHwB1)
Here is the fit when buttoned. I am wearing a sweater to allow the neckhole to lie smoothly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6y6ryLTx/DSC-3605-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6y6ryLTx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZWC6Lbrf/DSC-3607-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZWC6Lbrf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wh9MrFJF/DSC-3608-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wh9MrFJF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k2zK10s7/DSC-3609-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2zK10s7)
And now, unbuttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dLXhw8yB/DSC-3610-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dLXhw8yB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8ft14NP/DSC-3611-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8ft14NP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bZtsJs0j/DSC-3612-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZtsJs0j)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QBgCQwn4/DSC-3628-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QBgCQwn4)
I don't want to jump the gun, because there may be more work to do on the body.
But: I would like to think about changing the sleeve style. Maybe some ease in the crown, for a bit of "rope", since I have a nice wool to use.
When the time comes, is this a suitable application for posaune's tutorial here?
https://movsd.com/BespokeCutter/index.php/topic,453.0.html
If not - is there something similar for men's sleeves?
OR - is there a good way to slash and spread my existing sleeve pattern for more ease in the crown?
Hi Jim,
In my opinion you can`t have darts like this. remark: I only sew for males: my husband and my grandchildren. So not much experience in the male business.
But when I look at your side view pic - I see that your belly point is laying before your bust. I attach again the pic as before but I have added the green rectangle to make clear what I mean. (Belly before bust). You have this adressed with the slanted CF in your pattern (but only till armhole line).
As second pic I have attached a coat draft for my husband. You can see how I drafted it. I cutted the green curve and then I rotated the CF part to vertical 90°- it opens at armhole. But my husband has a belly not a little stomach like you.
Have you adressed the hanging side with a) shoulder b) armhole? I think the right armhole has to be deeper.
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/RJq1FR6q/balance3.png) (https://postimg.cc/RJq1FR6q)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zbvHSfJc/Balance4.png) (https://postimg.cc/zbvHSfJc)
Hi posaune!
The chest dart started as a bust dart, which peterle put in the jacket pattern to build some shape in the chest. If I take it completely out the coat will go out of balance.
Or do you mean to say I have too much width in the front of the skirt? I think the usual alteration to correct this for bellied men is a cut to the side seam which is usually hidden under a pocket flap ("Donlon wedge"). It does the same thing as your diagram, but isn't visible at the armhole.
I have not tried to change the amount of dropped shoulder correction. I would rather have not quite enough, than a little too much. Wouldn't want the coat to force me to hold the right shoulder low.
Do you think the skirt looks better, worse, or about the same? Is there a usual alteration for women with asymmetrical hips like mine? Or is this something that has to be worked out for each individual case?
We can discuss ideas, but I want to hear from peterle before making more changes.
Quote from: jruley on November 25, 2024, 12:27:00 AMI have not tried to change the amount of dropped shoulder correction. I would rather have not quite enough, than a little too much. Wouldn't want the coat to force me to hold the right shoulder low.
Looking at the balance lines, your 'horizontals' are all diagonal. Whether you like it or not, the right shoulder needs picking up so that those lines are parallel with the floor. Obviously the syce will need lowering/scooping to compensate.
The easiest thing to do is rip the shoulder seam, turn the seams to the outside and pin them. Adjust until balance is right. You might need to release the lowest part of the syce seam with a few cuts to do this.
I'd also turn-in and baste the neck seams. As is, they may be preventing the jacket from hanging properly. Only a tiny bit, but it all makes a difference.
Aesthetically, it's crying out for an extra button at the bottom of the fronts, IMO. If you bring the spacing in a little, you might be able to wangle things so that this extra, lowest button is inline with the very top of the hip pockets. That always looks right (if it's achievable).
PS, it's a lot simpler to mark your button positions on the cloth and pin them. That way you're not committing to anything. You can can make positional changes, to see what works best, without having the visual distraction of pre-sewn buttonholes.
I'm not yet sure where the dart comes from.
The thing is, probably the original dart was just a single slash before tweaking (not a dart taking out width). Then the correct way to elongate the dart would be to carry the dart lines straight down to the hem. That would take out more width at the hem than now.
Fact is, the hem is wavy and "dancing", there is too much width. And looking on the profile pics you can see, some of the waves start at the belly peak.
So I second a Donlon wedge, probably after the necessary correction of the dart.(A short jacket does'nt need a Donlon wedge, a longer one does)
Tonight's changes.
First, the neckhole has been re-taped at the seam line, clipped and basted as Gerry suggested.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cgsKnPPd/DSC-3629-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cgsKnPPd)
Second, the shoulder. Pinned out a wedge at the natural shoulder line, where the seam will be relocated. Here it is buttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hXTh3SBS/DSC-3630-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXTh3SBS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d7F3bzsG/DSC-3631-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d7F3bzsG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WFb33gJ3/DSC-3632-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFb33gJ3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/v1vTb3Tk/DSC-3633-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v1vTb3Tk)
Even I can see that this is an improvement.
Same as last post, but unbuttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qtB0X0BD/DSC-3634-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qtB0X0BD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/v1Py0jcY/DSC-3635-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v1Py0jcY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fd844Lyw/DSC-3636-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Fd844Lyw)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8HCVQyk/DSC-3637-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8HCVQyk)
Now a dart change. Front darts were ripped and resewn along the outermost lines shown here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/crQNp6r5/DSC-3646-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crQNp6r5)
Here is the result worn buttoned. The front skirt seems better behaved, but now it shows the belly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDnRnDLH/DSC-3638-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDnRnDLH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dhqgg6ML/DSC-3639-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhqgg6ML)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N58WNVz3/DSC-3640-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N58WNVz3)
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7XMVmDb/DSC-3641-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7XMVmDb)
I have marked this "Version 1b" on the pattern.
And unbuttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/phnSK1j1/DSC-3642-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/phnSK1j1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QKGymkkN/DSC-3643-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QKGymkkN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6TnS3gt8/DSC-3644-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TnS3gt8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQL35zpL/DSC-3645-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQL35zpL)
What should I try next?
Clarence Poulin says some people don't need a dart. Maybe this pattern is best with it.
The Donlon wedge will get rid of some of the excess skirt. But they do show the belly bulge. But it does keep cold air from blowing up inside.
You're getting there Jim. Obviously pinning the shoulder has helped a lot with the balance lines, especially at the back (nice and horizontal there). However, it's possible that your front on the left hand side could do with dropping, uniformly, at the shoulder seam by the slightest amount.
In all the photos, it's slightly raised. Especially in profile, where there's a clear imbalance (front higher than back, creating a slight diagonal). Because of this slight hight difference, the RHS front is being pulled up a little at the CF when buttoned.
Having said that, it could just be misalignment of your buttons and buttonholes. Take the buttons off and pin the fronts closed, matching the horizontal balance lines. If that improves things, then we've solved the problem. Otherwise, you need a little more length on the RHS.
If it comes to making the adjustment, don't forget that the seamline for the back shoulder remains untouched. Just need a little more length on the front. Difficult to judge, but try a quarter of an inch to begin with. Rip the shoulder and pin the seams wrong sides together. Adjust till happy.
PS If you do end up adjusting the seam, obviously don't use the buttons. They're going to be out of whack. Which is why pinning is best when making toiles. Again, match the horizontal balance points then pin the front closed.
Trying Gerry's shoulder alteration, with the left (wearer's left) front lowered 1/4" on the back.
Pinned closed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XrqNrwJr/DSC-3647-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XrqNrwJr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HJ7p2dbH/DSC-3648-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HJ7p2dbH)
(https://i.postimg.cc/18dmwfnJ/DSC-3649-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/18dmwfnJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8wbgVjD/DSC-3650-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8wbgVjD)
Unpinned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JDMhKtmJ/DSC-3651-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JDMhKtmJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/kDM4bVTP/DSC-3652-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDM4bVTP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wRBj8P1j/DSC-3653-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wRBj8P1j)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDPmLQKg/DSC-3654-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vDPmLQKg)
The front chest line seems more level now. OTOH the left shoulder is a little baggy, and the left front droops when the toile is unpinned.
The left front is now swinging open when unbuttoned. Ordinarily, I'd say to pick up the front at the neck only, to balance the hem. However, the front balance lines are still a little higher than the back's when seen in profile. So I'd drop the shoulder tip a tiny amount on the left, to get that front evened out when unbuttoned. Then probably drop the whole RHS front uniformly by a similar amount too.
Adjustment is going to be easier and quicker if you pin those seams.
The shoulder alteration did work. Don't forget to deepen the arm hole for the same amount you pinned away.
The fronts:I'm pretty sure now the "dart" originally was just a vertical slash that opend when pinching the pattern at the arm hole. Thus the cleanest way to draft it for the long pattern is to draw a right angled line to the chest line. Each leg perpendicular to it's part of the chest line. They meet at the kink point of the chest line.
As you can see in your last set of pics, this takes a bit of width and the coat is a bit too tight over the belly. Lowest button and button hole don't meet.
I think you need a slight belly pattern and need a pattern where the belly point lies forward to the chest point. So you can add the missing width (1,5 to 2cm?)at the center front line at the belly point. Connect the new point to your chest point. To draw the lower part of the new CF line, mark the spot where the new line would meet the hem line. Half the distance of the old and new hem point and connect to the belly point. Add the button stand to the new CF line.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CdJy3bKd/17326329644184171597646099576081.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CdJy3bKd)
In this slight belly cut coat patter you can see the CF line H-B-U-L
A little more shoulder work before drafting the new fronts.
Following Gerry's direction, I let more out of the left shoulder at the tip, graduating the original 1/2" seam allowance from nothing at the tip to 1/4 at the neck. Obviously I can't let any more out of this front without adding material to the shoulder.
This looked better tried on, but I noticed the top of the shoulder was getting loose and floppy because of the extra length. So, I pinned out a small wedge along the natural shoulder line.
I did not change the right shoulder, it seemed low enough already with the wedge pinned in the left shoulder.
Here is the result pinned together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6T0ZznZ5/DSC-3657-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6T0ZznZ5)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JGYkC8Kf/DSC-3658-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGYkC8Kf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JGzkF033/DSC-3659-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGzkF033)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qNtCkF5z/DSC-3660-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qNtCkF5z)
And here unbuttoned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/N2sv4WHD/DSC-3661-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N2sv4WHD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3dbQXfJj/DSC-3662-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3dbQXfJj)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3W1TRJsc/DSC-3663-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3W1TRJsc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RN0znx9V/DSC-3664-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RN0znx9V)
What I propose to do now is draw up the new fronts, incorporating the new shoulder seam location (natural shoulder line) and the changes we have made. Should be able to re-use the backs with the new shoulder edge location marked.
If anyone would like to see something else first, please let me know.
Well done Jim, that's looking much better.
The perfectionist in me would still like to see the fronts dropped a miniscule amount, to get the balance a little more level in profile, but if you've run out of cloth at the shoulder ... obviously leave more inlay at the seams for future toiles. To paraphrase the late, great Edward Sexton - I have to rely on his knowledge, because I'm not a coat maker! - it's all about the shoulders. Get the hang right and everything else - suppression, darts, length etc - as important as it all is, becomes secondary 'detail'.
When the neck opening is on the narrow side, a coat can end up hanging from neck rather than the whole shoulder. That's possibly why you had such a dramatic swing of the LHS front with such a minor alteration. It seems to be under control now though. Pinning out the shoulder was a good idea. I love the draping approach to fitting. Whatever it takes to get results, is whatever it takes.
Here is the new belly cut front pattern, and the upper part of the backs showing the alterations (blue dashed lines) to relocate the shoulder seam.
If anyone sees a problem, please let me know.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3WZY2vBF/DSC-3665-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/3WZY2vBF)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ykYBj8p4/DSC-3666-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ykYBj8p4)
Tomorrow is Thanksgiving Day over here. In addition to many other things, I am thankful for all the help so generously provided on this forum :).
New fronts are done and sewn to the backs. I'm sure there will be corrections, but overall it follows the body without dragging on the belly.
Pinned together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZB2XML5B/DSC-3667-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZB2XML5B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/H8MFD7rS/DSC-3668-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/H8MFD7rS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hhQk7N29/DSC-3670-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhQk7N29)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fJ4675P1/DSC-3671-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fJ4675P1)
Unpinned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bZmC5R6y/DSC-3672-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZmC5R6y)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgV0cwGT/DSC-3673-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgV0cwGT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ns5dFhbN/DSC-3674-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ns5dFhbN)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8tYf1yx/DSC-3675-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8tYf1yx)
Two things I've noticed:
- it seems to hang better unpinned
- the right back in the side seam area is getting sloppy looking (yes, I deepened the armhole :) )
Looks quite good I think. The chest doesn't collapse anymore bcause there is enough space for the belly.
You're right, the right side I a bit messy and the right side seam swings forward.
It looks as if it has too much width. Looking on your back and side panel pattern, it seems to me, the right side is wider. Is this true?
Happy turkey, by the way😄
IMO you really need to widen the neck to make allowance for the jumper you're wearing. Presumably you intend to wear the finished coat with such a nice, warm layer; in which case you have to cater to it. Otherwise, take it off for the fitting.
If you look at the back, the neckline is at a slight diagonal and the shoulder seams mostly hang from the sides of the neck. Things are catching there, especially on the LHS, and preventing a proper hang. Probably why we're back to a slanted, horizontal balance on the fronts, face-on; and possibly why the fronts are raised relative to the back (slanted balance lines from front-to-back). A little more width will probably release that tension and the fronts will hopefully drop and feel/look more comfortable.
It's important not to take anything off the nape when widening the neck, otherwise the collar can detach at the back. Just shave some material from the sides. You can even get away with taking a little off the fronts at the base of the neck, if you need to give the opening more natural curvature, for aesthetics.
You'll probably have to re-pin the shoulders (especially on the LHS) afterwards, but I think the narrowness is causing problems and I've encountered this myself. And don't worry about gapping at the sides. Don't forget that you're going to be dealing with quite thick cloth for a coat, so you need a little more space around the neck so that you don't end up with an overly-fitted collar. Plus the neck-opening of your jumper needs some space (and will also fill any resultant gap).
At the very least, turn in your neck seams and baste them again (that alone might help).
Quote from: peterle on November 28, 2024, 07:42:19 PMYou're right, the right side is a bit messy and the right side seam swings forward.
It looks as if it has too much width. Looking on your back and side panel pattern, it seems to me, the right side is wider. Is this true?
Along the waist line, the backs are the same width.
The right side panel has about 1/2" more width than the left.
The right front has about 1" more width than the left.
I believe this extra width goes all the way back the shirt pattern this was derived from, and was added to prevent dragging on the right hip.
For Gerry:
The neck seams are in fact turned back and basted over a tape as in the first toile. You might be seeing the tape right on the edge of the hole on the right side. That's because the right shoulder came out a little narrow in the draft (don't know why), so I split the difference and positioned it on the middle of the back shoulder rather than line up the edges at the neck. I was going to treat that as the seam line and adjust the pattern, but I can shift the tape or shift the whole seam so the edges of the neckhole line up if that's the right thing to do.
I'm a little bit reluctant to change the neckhole because I have a well proven collar pattern that works. I can do the next fitting over a T-shirt to see if the sweater is causing problems.
Since we're talking about the collar here are few pictures of the existing style, worn over that same pesky sweatjumper:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G44Rb4GP/DSC-3677-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G44Rb4GP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bZ4hrq97/DSC-3678-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZ4hrq97)
(https://i.postimg.cc/94Tjqsxr/DSC-3679-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94Tjqsxr)
This jacket is a similar weight wool to what I'll be using for the coat. Top collar is a thinner wool with a finer finish.
This collar can also be worn up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qg1Wgkk1/DSC-3680-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qg1Wgkk1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vd5pC3vm/DSC-3681-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vd5pC3vm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xc77ytNH/DSC-3682-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xc77ytNH)
I think it works well, and it's comfortable - but tell me what you see.
QuoteI'm a little bit reluctant to change the neckhole because I have a well proven collar pattern that works.
Jim, all I can say is that your existing toile has a problem; and by the look of things, you had the same problem with the original design. Look at the neckline with the collar turned up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xc77ytNH/DSC-3682-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xc77ytNH)
It has a slight, diagonal slant, just like your toile. The yolk has a similar slant too. Is it well proven?
Even if your body has a slight lilt, the garment will look better if it doesn't. Balance lines and horizontal seams need to be level with the floor and you need to do whatever it takes to make that happen. Of course you can ignore these signals. Your new coat may look OK, but it will look/fit a hell of a lot better by getting the balance right. And just think how it would look in its current incarnation with patterned cloth.
The last toile I made looked as if it had been in a warzone. Pockmarked all over from needle scars (I machine basted a lot of it); slashes to the armholes and neck; biro marks here, there and everywhere; wrinkled from multiple try-ons. There's no need to be precious about your test garment, be bold and experiment.
When adapting a coat from a shirt pattern, extra width is require at the neck to allow room for the undergarment (invariably a shirt). Similarly, when adapting a coat pattern to an overcoat, further neck width is required to allow the jacket's collar to 'breath'. In this case you need a little more room for your jumper; and for the jacket to hang more from the shoulders, not just towards the sides of the neck.
When I make a toile, I iron the left bottom stand inwards so I can match the center lines more precisely. I also pin it close up to the neck, because this reveals eventual issues with the neck hole. I also prefer a shirt with collar for fitting, because it's collar sits better in place. A sweater shifts, is bumpy or has a too wide neck hole.
Regarding neck hole width: For my 100cm chest measure the back neck construction width (W-h in the posted patter) is:
shirt:7,5cm
Vest, lounge coat: 8cm
Overcoat: 8,5cm
This evening's changes:
- Right shoulder seam has been matched at the neckhole.
- 1/4" width has been added to the sides and front of the neckhole, graduating to nothing at the nape, taped, turned and basted.
- Left button stand has been pressed under at the centerline and basted down
- A small bit of width (1/2" total) has been pinned out of the right back between the chest and waist lines.
Tell me what you think.
Pinned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KkGs6Knb/DSC-3684-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KkGs6Knb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/c6JbTnxM/DSC-3685-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/c6JbTnxM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ygLrsVPZ/DSC-3686-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ygLrsVPZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jnC3jGgk/DSC-3687-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jnC3jGgk)
Unpinned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXcYvbZ4/DSC-3688-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXcYvbZ4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lhr3fYns/DSC-3689-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Lhr3fYns)
(https://i.postimg.cc/56Lqm4CS/DSC-3690-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/56Lqm4CS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/v4y7qJ7F/DSC-3691-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v4y7qJ7F)
That's much better Jim, well done for persevering. A couple of very minor points:
Firstly, pin the bottom of your fronts too. As things stand, the fronts look fairly balanced when 'unbuttoned' so I don't think there's a further problem. However, because you left that area open when 'buttoned' (pinned), the LHS swayed out a little, giving the false impression of a balance problem. I don't think there's any real issue here, but it does make fitting evaluations easier.
Secondly, if I were draping this, then once the balance lines were looking good, I'd literally take an erasable pen or pencil and draw in the lines that I want to see. This sort of thing (but hopefully done better - the limitations of using MS Paint!):
(https://i.postimg.cc/ftwRtQzG/Neckline-Amendment-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ftwRtQzG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/grjGfDnH/Neckline-Amendment-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/grjGfDnH)
That curve in the last snap would be mirrored on the RHS, BTW. And the line in the first snap wouldn't be so straight (though hopefully it's highlighting better symmetry).
When happy with the results, cut away the surplus cloth and transfer the new lines to your pattern. You can always skip the first step if you're uncertain about the shape (at least you'll still have cloth to play around with). As things stand, you have a little asymmetry that needs tidying up. I must reiterate though, this stage is only done once the balance is looking good.
PS I'd recommend watching some elementary draping vids on youtube. Plus some advanced ones, just for inspiration. Your front darts could be pinned (you'll get the best results that way); and in an ideal world, your back too ... but difficult to do oneself.
Either way, you'll see just how bold drapers can be when working with toiles. Don't be afraid to try stuff out. It's just cheap cloth, we can always start anew if things don't go well.
Another tiny observation. I might be wrong, but I'm guessing that your darts are about a quarter to 3/8ths outside of each apex. Feel where each apex (nipple) is and measure between the two. Halve that distance and bring it out from the CF in both directions, to mark the vertical drop of each dart.
It's not that critical here, this is more of an aesthetic thing. Using definite points of the body as references for seams/darts/suppression etc always (well, mostly) looks better.
Thanks Gerry, especially for your persistence about widening the neckhole. That made all the difference.
I don't understand what you are trying to do with the front neckline. Does it need to be lower, more scooped out, or what?
Quote from: jruley on November 29, 2024, 10:02:12 PMI don't understand what you are trying to do with the front neckline. Does it need to be lower, more scooped out, or what?
This is nothing to do with fit, it's pure aesthetics. Comparing the left side of the neck hole to the right, there's some aymmetry of shape, which needs addressing. And while we're at it, we might as well make the neck hole look nicer.
The curvature that I drew in is what I would want to see on the garment. And if it's a little deeper, so be it. That wasn't the aim, but you can see that by lowering the neck hole slightly it allows the shirt collar to breathe a little. It just looks better to my eyes.
It's up to you how you shape and neck hole of course, but as things stand you've got some asymmetry at the front and at the back; and that definitely needs sorting out.
You can still retain height at the front, of course, as this photo of the collarless Cardin jacket demonstrates; but you still need a nice, symmetrical-looking (despite what your body is doing) shape.
https://uk.pinterest.com/pin/595741856931485839/
You can also see in the above the width needed at the sides of the neck to allow undergarments to breath, and for the hang to be more from the shoulders, rather than getting 'caught' at the neck. The width is more visible on the subject's LHS, because their head is turned to the right, but hopefully you can see what I'm driving at.
Thanks Gerry.
Before fine tuning the neckline, I thought I would try to take some more width out of the right side seam to clean up that side of the back. I made a few tries, and this one looks best to me. The body lines all seem to be horizontal, but one thing that concerns me a little is the coat isn't sitting into my back. Also the front skirts seem to want to swing open a little at the front.
Have I taken out too much width, or maybe in the wrong place?
Instead of pins, I basted some short Velcro strips to the fronts. This allows minor repositioning - plus my wife is much happier :)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TK9GC8kk/DSC-3703-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TK9GC8kk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5H2JrPTf/DSC-3704-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5H2JrPTf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WDYVcGcg/DSC-3705-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WDYVcGcg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1ngQm8yT/DSC-3706-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1ngQm8yT)
Same alteration, unfastened:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hXSRJySV/DSC-3707-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXSRJySV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NyFhDK2M/DSC-3708-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/NyFhDK2M)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CZQ3Qwb4/DSC-3709-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZQ3Qwb4)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5Xnd8B0T/DSC-3710-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5Xnd8B0T)
Tell me what you see, please.
Quote from: jruley on November 30, 2024, 12:07:40 PMI thought I would try to take some more width out of the right side seam to clean up that side of the back.
Postimages is inaccessible at the moment, so I can't see any images from this thread. Must be a maintenance issue ... or the Kremlin have it in for tailors. With that in mind, I have no idea what you've done, but I don't understand why you're making changes to one side of your body only.
Much of what tailors do is artifice. They take our crooked bodies and make them look straighter. What you seem to be doing is the reverse. By catering to every quirk of your figuration you're actually accentuating your body's asymmetry. That was clearly the case in your first jacket. The seams run at a diagonal, slanting from left to right. Imagine what that would have looked like with check cloth. You'd cut right across the pattern and your jacket would have looked badly sewn.
With the exception of the shoulder drop adjustment, your pattern should remain symmetrical. Anomalies of fit from side-to-side are generally catered to by adjustments internally - wading to even up shoulders, for example - or with the iron. Or simply left alone, so that the body looks more even (if stiff enough, the internal structure of the garment will maintain shape).
QuoteThe body lines all seem to be horizontal, but one thing that concerns me a little is the coat isn't sitting into my back.
As mentioned I can't see any of the photos. From memory, you've created side seams that are very much at the side. Consider shifting them towards the back, like a lounge coat. You can then create suitable suppression to clean up the back. Alternatively, you can create a yolk, ditch the centre seam and incorporate two darts either side of the CB line, running from the yolk to the hem. These can be turned into seams.
QuoteAlso the front skirts seem to want to swing open a little at the front.
When unbuttoned, a jacket will always swing open a little. If it's problematic then the fronts need picking up at the neck. I can't see any of the images right now though. If you mean that you have this problem when buttoned, then many tailors draw in the fronts and hems with tape or selvedge from lining/Silesia to stop them 'detaching' from the body. That's something that's done in the making, though, and doesn't concern us at this stage.
The side seams hang straight, that's good.
The front grapes a little since the strip was ironed inside,so most likely the strip just pushes a bit.
When taking in at the side seam you also make the arm hole smaller. Not a good thing. I think it would be better to correct at the curved seam. In my eyes the right side is wider throughout from the shoulderblades to the hem. You should just make the right side widths (chest waist hip) the same as the left and see what happens.
Bizarrely, I have to use a VPN now to access/see postimg. Opera is inadvertently blocking it: I get a 'failed to load' message. Solutions (other than a VPN), anyone?
Anyway, with this type of jacket, 5 buttons are preferred. Either that or space your four buttons more. Preferably the former arrangement because, as mentioned earlier, alignment of the lowest button with the top of the hip pocket always looks right; and an extra button should allow you to do that. Reference the Cardin and Hardy Amies examples I posted.
Better/lower spacing of the buttons will help with keeping your fronts closed. Drawing in the hem and front when making the jacket will do the rest.
You're creating asymmetry on the RHS. It looks bad - see above mini-rant ( :) ).
The balance is looking good though, well done. If you want something more sculptured at the back, then you really should consider shifting the side-seams further back. That way you can add proper suppression. Did you add any along the CB seam?
Do remember to check your apex measurement as described earlier. Those darts look like they could do with pulling in slightly. It will look better.
Quote from: peterle on November 30, 2024, 08:33:17 PMI think it would be better to correct at the curved seam. In my eyes the right side is wider throughout from the shoulderblades to the hem. You should just make the right side widths (chest waist hip) the same as the left and see what happens.
Previous alteration has been removed, and 1/2" taken off the right side piece along the curved seam, graduating to nothing at the top:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yDJhWN49/DSC-3713-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yDJhWN49)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xXWvmSnZ/DSC-3715-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xXWvmSnZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7G4SBMCM/DSC-3716-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7G4SBMCM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rdxSCYpw/DSC-3717-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rdxSCYpw)
Here unfastened in front:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8zTX0nd/DSC-3718-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8zTX0nd)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bSJDM6qb/DSC-3720-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bSJDM6qb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K4vMRYtz/DSC-3721-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K4vMRYtz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6TjGRNhh/DSC-3722-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TjGRNhh)
This seems to me to fit better in back, but now the fronts are slanting a little again.
What do you see?
This one has the same alteration as post #63 and #64, but with 1/2" pinned out of the right side seam below the waist. Above the waist line, it graduates to nothing at the chest line, so the armhole does not change.
I think it helped the back.
Fastened:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2Ldq1VCk/DSC-3723-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2Ldq1VCk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gr3LSB8C/DSC-3724-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gr3LSB8C)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PPhpBzMP/DSC-3725-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PPhpBzMP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tp9LGLkQ/DSC-3726-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Tp9LGLkQ)
and unfastened:
(https://i.postimg.cc/crr63x0B/DSC-3727-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/crr63x0B)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XpmqcRvS/DSC-3728-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XpmqcRvS)
(https://i.postimg.cc/75z6BKCC/DSC-3729-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75z6BKCC)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VScN2XMK/DSC-3730-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VScN2XMK)
Tell me what you think.
QuoteBizarrely, I have to use a VPN now to access/see postimg. Opera is inadvertently blocking it: I get a 'failed to load' message. Solutions (other than a VPN), anyone?
https://help.opera.com/en/latest/security-and-privacy/#:~:text=Whitelist%20a%20website%20in%20Opera's%20ad%20blocker&text=Instead%20of%20having%20to%20completely,off%20for%20this%20site%20button. (https://help.opera.com/en/latest/security-and-privacy/#:~:text=Whitelist%20a%20website%20in%20Opera's%20ad%20blocker&text=Instead%20of%20having%20to%20completely,off%20for%20this%20site%20button.)
https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/images-not-loading-in-opera/4132 (https://www.sitepoint.com/community/t/images-not-loading-in-opera/4132)
https://help.opera.com/en/latest/web-preferences/ (https://help.opera.com/en/latest/web-preferences/)
https://perishablepress.com/opera-brave-blocking-images/ (https://perishablepress.com/opera-brave-blocking-images/)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm1BqS1vs4k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm1BqS1vs4k)
The last pic set looks good to me. Are all the widths in the back symmetric now?
Quote from: peterle on December 01, 2024, 08:51:40 PMAre all the widths in the back symmetric now?
Yes, that seems to have been the problem.
Well, if the body looks good, maybe it's time to think about sleeves?
Before going any further, I thought it would be good to check the armholes. I laid the pattern pieces (with existing alterations marked) on a sheet of paper. Working front to back, I traced the outlines, then matched each piece at the seam lines. The result is shown below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXcN3dsh/DSC-3731-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXcN3dsh)
The heavy lines are the pattern piece edges. Dashed lines indicate seams, and the chest line is marked on each front.
Next I marked in for the seam allowances (see the finer pen line inside the heavy outline), correcting for the obvious irregularities. Then I "walked" each seam with a ruler to measure the circumference. The left sleeve is 24-5/8", right 24-7/8".
I don't remember what method I used to draft the original armhole shape when the jacket pattern was developed.
Questions:
- Other than smoothing things out, what changes should I make to the shape?
- What to do about the unequal length? I would like to use one pattern for both sleeves if possible.
Here is my existing sleeve pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mzCZgny7/DSC-3732-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mzCZgny7)
Currently this is fitted to the armhole, with little to no ease.
I would like to have some "rope" in the sleeve crown, just for aesthetics.
Can I do that by slashing and spreading the existing pattern, or should I draft a new one?
Why are your armholes different in length? When adapting for dropped shoulder, the whole armhole should be dropped, thus it's length would stay the same.
I think you should mark the armholes in your toile. It seems to have wide shoulders and probably a dropped/overcut sleeve seam?
If yes, your sleeve crown seems quite high to me.
Quote from: peterle on December 03, 2024, 03:53:25 AMWhy are your armholes different in length? When adapting for dropped shoulder, the whole armhole should be dropped, thus it's length would stay the same.
It's not on purpose. I did drop the armhole when we lowered the right shoulder. But we also adjusted the slope on both shoulders, and the balance correction on the left side made the front of that armhole longer. Putting all these together is the reason I did the check.
The question now is, what to do about it? Where to add or take away length?
Here are closeups from the last fitting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/75sqMWMr/DSC-3723-Dx-O-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75sqMWMr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t1sprN2Z/DSC-3724-Dx-O-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t1sprN2Z)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LqGRGgby/DSC-3725-Dx-O-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LqGRGgby)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8YrRh0b/DSC-3726-Dx-O-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8YrRh0b)
The armhole seam will run 1/4" inside the cut edge. The right front will need a little additional width at the shoulder tip to match the back - unless we cut back on the shoulder width.
The shoulders are about 1/2" wider than on the original denim jacket. That's because when I altered the pattern for more room in the waist, I basically spread it 1/2" in width. That was "quick and dirty" and I probably would have been better off with the "belly cut" that we have now. If the shoulders (and even the side seams) need to be taken in we can do that.
If pictures from a different angle would help to show the run of the scye we can do that as well.
I measured the seam length of the existing sleeve pattern. It is 23-3/8", so some additional length is required in any case.
Some pictures wearing the original jacket so you can see how the sleeves fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6T8tLXMW/DSC-3733-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6T8tLXMW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/SJ843G0H/DSC-3734-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJ843G0H)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k2mCmtqG/DSC-3735-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k2mCmtqG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yW2BLbGF/DSC-3736-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yW2BLbGF)
And wearing the new one, made of similar weight material to what I will use for the coat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8ZG898G/DSC-3737-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8ZG898G)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jwmVkDMs/DSC-3738-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jwmVkDMs)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cKDGw9Yt/DSC-3739-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cKDGw9Yt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LYnKTtBC/DSC-3740-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LYnKTtBC)
Am I better off returning to the original shoulder width?
After measuring the shoulder seams on an assembled jacket, I thought I should re-check the pattern pieces before proceeding further.
I have egg on my face.
When I laid out the armhole shapes, I forgot that I hadn't cut the shoulders off the backs to reflect the new seam location. The corrected layout is shown below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LnS41tHk/DSC-3742-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LnS41tHk)
Happily, both seams now measure the same (22-7/8"). That leaves 1/2" ease in the existing sleeve head.
I can't believe I missed that - but then, I am the guy who ran to the hardware store the other day for a new set of drill bits. Only to find my hand drill was set to reverse...
Trying to add ease to the sleeve cap by slashing and pivoting.
First I combined my two sleeve pieces back into a one-piece sleeve, with the construction lines indicated. Also added length to eliminate the separate cuff. The seam location is shown as a dashed line.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D4kKmr7H/DSC-3743-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4kKmr7H)
Then I cut the sleeve apart. Added a bit of width to agree with the old cuff. Then cut the head into four pieces and added ease as shown.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HJRqPw8n/DSC-3744-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HJRqPw8n)
Here is the toile with a test sleeve in place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9wQCk3cY/DSC-3745-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9wQCk3cY)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hXdg61R6/DSC-3746-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hXdg61R6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bsdqHjCz/DSC-3747-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bsdqHjCz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4mMsWFqp/DSC-3748-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4mMsWFqp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gwbdWLYJ/DSC-3749-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gwbdWLYJ)
Please tell me what you see.
At the moment you added some ease in the crown and you also increased the crown height. Is this the effect you wanted?
Why do you want more ease in your pattern and how do you want your sleeves to look like? You should consider this to change your pattern accordingly. Keep in mind that the sleeve style should match the jacket style an it's construction.
Quote from: peterle on December 06, 2024, 08:10:02 PMWhy do you want more ease in your pattern and how do you want your sleeves to look like? You should consider this to change your pattern accordingly. Keep in mind that the sleeve style should match the jacket style and its construction.
Well, to be perfectly honest - I have made three jackets with the same sleeve style and I thought it would be fun to try something different :)
Also, I thought adding ease to the crown might give me enough mobility to eliminate the underarm gusset I put on those jackets.
I know it's "working backwards", but I don't have a fixed idea of what the finished jacket should look like. Let me explain how it will be used.
We live in a very rural area. Other than the next door neighbor's house, there is nowhere within walking distance. And I have old jackets (an M65 field jacket and a Carhartt coat) that I wear doing chores around the property.
So this is for taking trips to town in the car. The short jackets are ideal for that purpose, but once the temperature gets below freezing a longer one would be nice. Hand warmer pockets would also be nice so I don't have to bother with gloves.
Since I will be driving a lot in this coat, it's very important that the sleeves don't bind with my hands on the steering wheel. A fitted body that doesn't ride up when I get in the seat is also important.
Does that help?
That's what I wanted you to think about.
When I read Casual Jacket I think of an unstructured, more or less straight cut garment, cut more like a shirt than a lounge coat, probably overcut shoulders and lower sleeve crown.
When I see your pattern, I think you aim for a more elegant short coat with waist nipping. This would call for a structured making, shoulder pads and an elegant two seam sleeve.
So I think it's time to make some decisions about the style before you continue.
What about raglan sleeves or a soft coat with a belt? So many variations!
I guess I was using "Casual Jacket" to mean a style without lapels :).
Quote from: peterle on December 07, 2024, 03:39:04 AMWhen I see your pattern, I think you aim for a more elegant short coat with waist nipping. This would call for a structured making, shoulder pads and an elegant two seam sleeve.
Yes, this is what I have in mind. I don't think it will need much structure, since the cloth I have is quite thick and stiff. But I'm not opposed to learning how to make better looking shoulders.
Not as tightly tailored as a suit jacket, and able to be closed up to the neck if necessary. That's why I used the "convertible" collar on the previous jackets.
I think buttons look better, but a zipper is much more convenient. I'm thinking of an overlapped zipper instead of the centerline one you see on the gray jacket.
Also thinking about pleated pockets on the front of the skirts, a bit bigger than on the gray jacket, and made so I can also put my hands in them from the side. I have a similar style on a work vest I like.
Unsupported shoulders will allways collapse. Your choices are:
Go for more casual, make the shoulders a bit wider and make the sleeve wider but with a lower crown. The collapsed shoulder is part of the style.
Or more elegant, move the sleeve seam more to the natural shoulder point and keep a higher crown. To keep the shoulder crispy, at least sew in a bias cut strip of horsehair and/or a strip of your woolen fabric. All SAs towards the sleeve. Success not guaranteed.
Btw, I wanted to add a Pic. Got a Warning:Postimage is known for Phishing. And loading didn't work.🤔
Thanks. I have a couple of pairs of shoulder pads on order from wawak.com. 1/4" and 1/2" thickness.
Postimage was "mad at me" a few nights ago when I stopped it from loading a full size image. It worked normally the next morning.
A little help from the cat, as I was basting on a test collar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXWLHf1F/DSC-3750-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXWLHf1F)
While waiting for the shoulder pads to arrive, I drafted up a two piece jacket sleeve for my armhole using the M&I Kim menswear pattern book. Here is the sloper:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDqJdDwp/DSC-3751-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDqJdDwp)
and the finished draft with seam allowances:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t72pzygT/DSC-3752-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t72pzygT)
This has a slightly higher crown than my last test sleeve, but much less bicep width. Measured amount of ease is 1-1/2".
Just trying the jacket sleeve over my shirt, it was obvious that it was too tight for use in this coat.
So I drafted another one, keeping the same crown height but increasing the bicep width to agree with the more casual style of post #79. As a result I have about 3 inches of ease to work into the armhole, but I don't think that will be a problem with the woolen fabric I'm using.
The resulting sleeve is on my left side in the following pictures. The casual two-piece sleeve (post #79) remains on the right.
I have also pinned in 1/4" shoulder pads on both sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BXVkZysq/DSC-3753-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BXVkZysq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FfjBZHSR/DSC-3754-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfjBZHSR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4YHMY5Np/DSC-3755-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4YHMY5Np)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XZMPdCpm/DSC-3756-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZMPdCpm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cg055G7c/DSC-3757-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cg055G7c)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nj2SyS0f/DSC-3758-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nj2SyS0f)
The only change here is a 1/2" shoulder pad on the right, keeping the 1/4" one on the left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vg2L7J0T/DSC-3759-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vg2L7J0T)
(https://i.postimg.cc/p59QssSZ/DSC-3760-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p59QssSZ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fkFfVh3g/DSC-3761-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fkFfVh3g)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qggGB773/DSC-3762-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qggGB773)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TpDqmHg2/DSC-3763-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TpDqmHg2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mPW3SNyY/DSC-3764-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPW3SNyY)
Please tell me what you see.
Well, 3inches is a lot. Generally when you make the sleeve wider, the crown gets less high.
When you use shoulder pads, consider where to position them exactly on your body. And you have to raise the shoulder points a little to allow for them.
The thing I see, both right side panels of your coat seem be to wide. There are vertical waves/folds. Do they really have the same widths as the left ones? I'm not sure, maybe the front fold is just a stress fold from the pad.
I thought the collar might be causing some problems. So let's take it out of the equation. This is still with the 1/4" pad in the left and 1/2" pad in the right shoulder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0MjxxgRG/DSC-3765-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0MjxxgRG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vrhwk7mx/DSC-3766-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vrhwk7mx)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FkJ4djK7/DSC-3767-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FkJ4djK7)
(https://i.postimg.cc/23qmKfxr/DSC-3768-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/23qmKfxr)
And here we are with a new collar. The old one had been changed several times, and didn't take into account the asymmetry in the pattern - I had simply drawn the left side and reflected it to the right. This one seems to lie much better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pynbBJ2d/DSC-3769-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pynbBJ2d)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nCvyyV9b/DSC-3770-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCvyyV9b)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QHGLYKtJ/DSC-3771-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHGLYKtJ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/DSn9nV1W/DSC-3772-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DSn9nV1W)
Quote from: peterle on December 16, 2024, 03:28:42 AMThe thing I see, both right side panels of your coat seem be to wide. There are vertical waves/folds. Do they really have the same widths as the left ones? I'm not sure, maybe the front fold is just a stress fold from the pad.
I took another 1/4" width off the Viennese seam on the right side body. It seems to have helped with the back fold:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YGTwpxWD/DSC-3773-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGTwpxWD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5QvWjF54/DSC-3774-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QvWjF54)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dDTY5gbb/DSC-3775-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDTY5gbb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TpMXFCGp/DSC-3776-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TpMXFCGp)
Looks more symmetric with the smaller back, I think.
yes, way better. But the right jacket side collapes under the armpit. And the right sleeve is not sitting good.
So I think the right armhole is maybe not correct. Look how different right and left sleeves are hanging.
But what a surprise: such nice christmas surroundings! season bespoke! I can't barely wait for Eastern.
Lg
posaune
Quote from: posaune on December 17, 2024, 12:58:57 AMyes, way better. But the right jacket side collapes under the armpit. And the right sleeve is not sitting good.
So I think the right armhole is maybe not correct. Look how different right and left sleeves are hanging.
Hi posaune,
The right and left sleeves are not the same pattern. I need to make a new right sleeve (same as left) and see if that fixes the problem.
And now we have sleeves from the same pattern on both sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Q9VNK8hn/DSC-3781-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9VNK8hn)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y3ZVnLJm/DSC-3782-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/y3ZVnLJm)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rq6VMZPW/DSC-3783-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Rq6VMZPW)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8NLkWp3/DSC-3784-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8NLkWp3)
EDIT: peterle was right, there was extra width in the right front. This has been removed - pictures coming soon.
And now with the surplus width taken out of the right front:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dL5NQr5F/DSC-3785-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dL5NQr5F)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WdtWdzyk/DSC-3786-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdtWdzyk)
(https://i.postimg.cc/68SHnws1/DSC-3787-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68SHnws1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8KmCy4Z/DSC-3788-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8KmCy4Z)
Much better, isn't it?
How do you like it?
Do the left and the right shoulder tip have the same widths/ same distance to the back seam?
Quote from: peterle on December 18, 2024, 07:35:33 PMDo the left and the right shoulder tip have the same widths/ same distance to the back seam?
Measuring along the shoulder seam from the tip to the collar seam, we have:
Left 6-1/2", right 6-3/4"
Measuring across the back from shoulder tip to center seam at collar base, we have:
Left 10", right 9-3/4"
Remember that the center seam is slanted from left to right as we go down the back.
There is maybe something wrong with the left- right balance.
Look at the neck - front view. The distance from neckhole to neck is different for left and right side (see the collar of the shirt?).
I think it is about 1 to 1.5 cm. So to speak: the neck is not centered.
I attach a simple draft example. The red example starts at center back neckhole, (the blue starts at the left side neckhole). The green is a "normal" lowered shoulder.
lg
posaune
(https://i.postimg.cc/cg8QGFhd/R-ckenstellung.png) (https://postimg.cc/cg8QGFhd)
Quote from: posaune on December 19, 2024, 12:22:07 AMThere is maybe something wrong with the left- right balance.
Look at the neck - front view. The distance from neckhole to neck is different for left and right side (see the collar of the shirt?).
I think it is about 1 to 1.5 cm. So to speak: the neck is not centered.
Hi posaune,
I adjusted the camera just before the last picture set was taken, and must have pulled the coat to one side.
It's not there in the previous two picture sets - and it's not there as I look in the mirror just now.
Plus, it's hard to see how making the right front smaller would pull the neck to the left?
I will be more careful (have my wife look more closely :) ) before taking the next set of pictures.
And with that, I have to leave off fitting until after the holidays.
I'm interested in opinions about style. What would the best hem length be? Pockets? Tweaks to the sleeves?
Instead of pockets on the skirts, I'm thinking about working hand warmer pockets into the chest darts, starting a couple of inches below the waist seam. Maybe pleated pockets on the upper chest like I had on the original denim jacket.
What do you think would look best?
Oh, yes, I think it is about time to do this. Sorry for picking nitbits.
lg
posaune
;) in the moment I sew for a customer who has just this problem. so maybe I look for it everywhere.The left neckhole (in her case) is sliding down at the neck, the shoulder and armpit is lowered and the left hip is standig out. The spine must be bended sideways like ">" Difficult.
Quote from: posaune on December 19, 2024, 03:58:17 AMOh, yes, I think it is about time to do this. Sorry for picking nitbits.
lg
posaune
;) in the moment I sew for a customer who has just this problem. so maybe I look for it everywhere.The left neckhole (in her case) is sliding down at the neck, the shoulder and armpit is lowered and the left hip is standig out. The spine must be bended sideways like ">" Difficult.
I am a skolyosis type; I just adjust my shoulder paddings to "normal"...
There is an old joke about this amongst New York tailors.
A guy goes to a tailor to have a suit made. Measuremets are taken and about two weeks later he has his first fitting. the suit looks horrible but the tailor tells him to raise his left shoulder a little, put his feet wider apart and his right foot a bit forward. Two weeks later next fitting and things are no better. In desperation the client orders the suit. When he picks up his suit the tailor offers him a steep discount on the condition that he wears it immediatly and tels anybody who asks where he had it made. He steps out to the bus stop where two ladies are waiting for the bus. He is standing like the tailor told him to and one of the ladies goes "look at that poor guy", the other answers "yes but some genius tailor managed to cut a suit for him, nevertheless"
Cheers, Hendrick
Here is a "short overcoat" pattern.
It's length is half the body height and you can see the position and size of the muff pockets. This one is double breasted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4HsvFXv5/IMG-20241220-104555.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4HsvFXv5)
Thank you. So a bit higher than I was thinking. Looking at different patterns, it seems the shorter the coat the higher the pocket. Is there a formula or aesthetic principle for this?
Is there any reason putting them in the darts wouldn't work?
You can put them in the darts. A hefty bar stitch at the top of pocket. Or one of those fancy triangle stitches. Some of my dad's WWII Naval coats had those fancy triangle stitches at the ends of the pockets.
Back from the Christmas holiday trip. My wife marked a provisional hem line an even distance from the floor as I turned around. This has been turned up and pinned.
With this length, I think pockets in the darts would be less comfortable than slanting them a little. Provisional pocket mouth locations are indicated by the brown paper strips, which seem to be where my hands naturally want to fall.
Rather than taking the dart all the way to the hem, with this pocket location I am thinking about making a cut over to the side seam somewhere in the pocket mouth. Might make a cleaner looking skirt and I wouldn't have to cut through multiple thicknesses of material to open the pocket. OTOH, a seam with a right angle in it can be tough to sew.
What do you think? Both technical and aesthetic comments are appreciated.
(https://i.postimg.cc/F7vCYyjD/DSC-3791-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7vCYyjD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/K1v9NmpT/DSC-3792-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/K1v9NmpT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1fKCw8BP/DSC-3793-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1fKCw8BP)
(https://i.postimg.cc/18Cv7bbj/DSC-3794-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/18Cv7bbj)
I think proportionally the pockets could be a bit bigger,i.e longer and wider. They look a bit miserly.
About the dart question:
You could shift the pockets a bit backwards so the top matches the dart. You can continue the dart below the pocket at it's lower end (the Line would be dart-pocketmouth- dart).
Or you can rotate the dart into the armhole. The dart will be much shorter and therefore less wide. Probably you even could skip sewing the dart and just gather the amount in at the armhole line and iron it. Then you would have no dart to cross. Are you planning chest pockets?
Quote from: peterle on January 10, 2025, 09:39:52 PMAre you planning chest pockets?
Yes, the same style as the original denim jacket (see post #75).
I personally would keep the same style for both pockets, i.e. cut through or applicated pockets.
Both styles can hide an armhole dart pretty well.
More "help" from Callie as I was getting ready to chalk out the body pieces for cutting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0zy8Srww/DSC-3795-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0zy8Srww)
Here is a baste fitting of the body. I transferred the chest dart back into a bust dart, then shrunk it out instead of sewing. Canvas has been basted into the fronts. Viennese seams have been sewn and pressed; shoulder and side seams are overlapped and basted flat. Shoulder pads are basted in place.
Unpinned version:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B8dsRgwT/DSC-3796-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8dsRgwT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/LYLRS1rr/DSC-3797-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LYLRS1rr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0KvvyNvr/DSC-3798-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0KvvyNvr)
(https://i.postimg.cc/p5BHhtVC/DSC-3799-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p5BHhtVC)
And here with a couple of pins at the neck and waist line:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QFC3tP2g/DSC-3800-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QFC3tP2g)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QFzrWmD2/DSC-3801-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QFzrWmD2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgFF0mcX/DSC-3802-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgFF0mcX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJSChRYk/DSC-3803-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJSChRYk)
Any suggestions before I proceed with pockets and permanent seams?
For better or worse, here's the finished coat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXV2218t/DSC-3812-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXV2218t)
(https://i.postimg.cc/G8RMnX18/DSC-3805-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G8RMnX18)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bDRmy1z6/DSC-3806-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDRmy1z6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1V5Jf4Xy/DSC-3807-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1V5Jf4Xy)
And here it is unzipped (sorry the first is out of focus):
(https://i.postimg.cc/R37RdwnM/DSC-3808-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R37RdwnM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cgdcb6Qf/DSC-3809-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cgdcb6Qf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/349Z57BV/DSC-3810-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/349Z57BV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jn54R935/DSC-3811-Dx-O.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jn54R935)
Please share your thoughts. It will certainly be useful; the temperature here as I write is -3 F (about -20 C).
My thanks to everyone who contributed to the thread. Especially peterle who was so generous with his time. Also posaune, and thanks again Gerry for insisting I correct the dropped shoulder :).
Looks nice. Little wide around the bottom edge for some people. Other people it's just fine. The cloth is nice. Doubt the wind blows through it. It is certainly worth the time making it.