Hi everyone!
I've been observing different pattern-making techniques, and a question came up. As an example, I'll bring up the systems of Rory Duffy and Sven Jungclaus. My question is actually about the grainline.
In Jungclaus' system, the grainline in the front of the jacket follows the dart, which he constructs perpendicular to the hemline of the jacket. However, this line is not perpendicular to the chest line, which Reza mentions in his video should always be parallel to the ground. On a checked fabric, this would likely be quite noticeable, right?
What happens if I modify Jungclaus' system by making the grainline perpendicular to the chest line, and thus aligning the dart with it as well? (I've started testing Jungclaus' system, and indeed, the dart does come out quite slanted.)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BjQMq4Lt/IMG-2438.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BjQMq4Lt)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k21wGzKs/IMG-2439.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k21wGzKs)
Additional question: Why does Jungclaus (and, for example, Rundschau) tilt the side of the back panel (left side of the hemline) and the other panels in the opposite direction? What does this affect? I haven't seen this approach with Italian tailors or in Rory's system either.
I'm guessing that the second draft compensates for the distortions caused by suppression and the darts. When the jacket is made up, everything will be on grain.
Perhaps it's more fitted, which would result in more distortions. The inclusion of a side pannel would suggest this.
Best to wait for a coat maker to answer, though (I merely dabble).
BTW is that slight diagonal at the chest just a construction line for the pocket?(is it the actual chest line?).
Hi Gerry
that is the construtionline for the breast pocket.
the draft of Sven Jungclaus is near the Rundschau construction. Both give a nice "skirt" and a "hugging" back. It is easy to alter for different figure types.
The first draft looks like an english draft to me. I think the slanted dart at the side can act maybe a bit difficult - but I do not know.
But I am not a coat maker and sew mainly for ladies (or my husband :) ).
I own some books of Jungclaus, because he shows detailed in pictures how to sew men's clothes.
lg
posaune
Thank you posaune, that's what I thought. In which case, the dart is actually perpendicular to the chest line.
Any slight angling of the back is to compensate for the back suppression? And the angling at the front to compensate for shortness in the front that might otherwise occur. Personally, I just allow inlay at the hem and sort it out in the fitting. :)
Thank you for the feedback.
I also checked again in the Jungclaus book; I am attaching the image. Additionally, in one of my Rundschau drafts, it also mentions that a perpendicular should be drawn to the hemline.
The following note was added to it:
,,Dart
(https://i.postimg.cc/TpcMf6hg/IMG-2440.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TpcMf6hg)
on waistline from chest-center-line: mark to the left 2 cm
at hem-line square up through previous point
halve this dart-line between chest-line and hem as shown
on dart-line from chest-line: mark down 4 cm"
The slanted back panel is the result of an incorporated wedge at the shoulder Blade level and gives enough length over the shoulder blades.
In older Rundschau drafts the back seam line at hip Level is moved just 2cm(instead of 4cm) from the vertical center line and the finished Back pattern was slashed an pivoted at the blade level. They incorporated that step to the drafting process.
Quote from: posaune on November 05, 2024, 11:56:52 PMHi Gerry
that is the construtionline for the breast pocket.
the draft of Sven Jungclaus is near the Rundschau construction. Both give a nice "skirt" and a "hugging" back. It is easy to alter for different figure types.
The first draft looks like an english draft to me. I think the slanted dart at the side can act maybe a bit difficult - but I do not know.
But I am not a coat maker and sew mainly for ladies (or my husband :) ).
I own some books of Jungclaus, because he shows detailed in pictures how to sew men's clothes.
lg
posaune
There is a technique to prevent slanted darts and seams from going crooked, even on light materials. Here the seam value of the dart is covered inside with a bias cut organdi...
Cheers, Hendrick
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn1WR2DH/not-french.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn1WR2DH)
Quote from: Hendrick on November 07, 2024, 10:19:23 AMThere is a technique to prevent slanted darts and seams from going crooked, even on light materials. Here the seam value of the dart is covered inside with a bias cut organdi...
Cheers, Hendrick
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn1WR2DH/not-french.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn1WR2DH)
I'm guessing that the organdi is pressed to one side and the dart to the other, so that they mirror each other; and that the dart isn't cut open in any way?
I've been thinking of doing this myself following a toile that I made recently. The chest darts have a mere one quarter inch intake. There's no way I could cut them open so the best I can do is what you've described. Unless you meant something else of course, in which case please enlighten me! :)
Mmm, the darts or seams are effectively opened; they can be because the pivot is much greater in a women's than a man's jacket. In couture, this is often done, even when a jacket has important curving, but also when fabric tends to unravel (like a Chanel). The seam or dart value is then hand overcast together with the strip of organdi. The last two or three cms (the ends)of the dart are pressed with an awl inserted. But it never hurts to try, the judgement of the material is probably the most important factor anyway. A french friend once opened a Chanel jacket (his wife's!) to try and trace the form of it. Picking it apart the loosely woven material quickly started unraveling before his eyes, immagine his panic!
Cheers, Hendrick
The dart on her coat seems to go to high. Does it got to the edge? Is there a gap (spread) which is pulled together for more shaping when seamed?
...it's actually a seam. It it incorporates the neck dart (to keep the top of the forepart above breast point closer to the body) as well as the chest dart. I posted it to illustrate that symmetrical darts are easier but not obligatory.
Cheers, Hendrick
It's nicely done, Hendrick.
About the warp. When it is vertical where needed it is strong and the cloth hangs better. Off bias cloth can be fitted but after awhile the garment starts hanging crooked. There is an overcoat that the back is set crooked. Don't remember why. Someone with a large seat maybe bias would be better. And maybe better for the shoulder blades.
Quote from: Greger on November 11, 2024, 02:23:42 PMIt's nicely done, Hendrick.
About the warp. When it is vertical where needed it is strong and the cloth hangs better. Off bias cloth can be fitted but after awhile the garment starts hanging crooked. There is an overcoat that the back is set crooked. Don't remember why. Someone with a large seat maybe bias would be better. And maybe better for the shoulder blades.
True, almost any garment will start collapsing and draping downwards where the weft is not horizontal. Although charming for a silk satin shiftdress, not so for a structured overcoat! I have never been able to really distill a fixed rule for grainlines in womens' though. Sometimes the design (stripes, checks) is also at play. Take a women's swing coat; sometimes the centerback is almost straight grain and the sides neer full bias, other times it is straight grain near or at the middle of the half panel... I remember that Balenciaga coats with the "bombé" effect (the rounded backs) were straight grain from the back armpoint, exactly where he wanted it to bulge. Now back to the drafts above (and the tailoring matters I want to learn more about) Greger, would you consider cutting a checked fabric in the second draft?
Cheers, Hendrick
Drawing it like that is one thing. Because getting dimensions can have an odd method of achievement. The warp threads would be aligned different. I would use the waist line to figure plumb and level. So the back piece would be tilted at the angle for level and plume when chalking on the cloth. Wouldn't want a V in the back. The hip shape might be off on the side panel.
Thank you!
Hendrick,
Some patterns the waistline moves up as it moves back. Need to be aware of that, too.
What's your opinion about the question you asked?
Hofenbitzer has a very adaptive view of waistlines. He is drafting for females, but its completely likely men have similar variations.
Quote from: Greger on November 13, 2024, 06:21:01 PMHendrick,
Some patterns the waistline moves up as it moves back. Need to be aware of that, too.
What's your opinion about the question you asked?
I was actually fishing for your opinion... But in fact, I was trying to immagine the slanted center back on a strong yarn dyed fabric and concluding that a heavy chevron effect would occur. Maybe fine (but still disturbing) with a fine bankers'stripe but not with a chalk stripe or, worse, a check where you would obviously center the window of the check. That was what started my post. I have no experience in bespoke but I have seen cutters (like my dad) balancing and adjusting pattern parts to a design while striking. I was curious to hear the reaction of an experienced person. Your remark about the waistline is bang on and in womens' pattern making is a devil. When a coat swings out, the waistline is like a pendulum hung by the atlas point of the neck; with more volume the waist will go up more than you expect every time. Then, going back to front you find that the volume compensates for the chestwidth; balance gone! And that is, without the bulk and weight of the fabric...
Cheers, Hendrick
You mention the waist going up. Lots of variables there. Larger breast. Where the bulk of the stomach is at. How much from the top do you add, or the bottom. The curved lines are longer than the straight ones. The more round the longer. Includes horizontal. And what do you want to do with the armhole? If it fits- change everything else that needs to be changed. Or, maybe your brain is thinking different. And of course aligning the vertical stripes. One pin per panel at shoulder makes it easy to move each panel rather quickly. Then decide how you want the darts and fish. How much of the don lon wedge. I think of tailoring as art on the person instead of the pattern says it is right. Hostek was telling me about one customer who wanted a coat with a name. But different regions might have a different coat with that name. Hostek said when the customer had it on for first fitting, "That's not what I want". Maybe he forgot, or it looked terrible on him, or just changed his mind. The tailor had the inlays so they could design the coat on the customer. About chest and stomach shapes hunchbacks are similar. Reading an old tailor and cutting book about stripes either direction keep the back rather straight. Under the arms put the deep curves and for the hips put the curves on the front piece or side panel. Granddad said under the arms is quite hidden. Watching an Italian tailor (no side panel) he added a lot of curve on the front side for the hip and seat. You kind of described women as 4 dimensional and men as 3. I agree. Your dad certainly wanted a higher standard. That's the kind of tailor to go to. One complaint about women, is that, they are more fickle.
"One complaint about women, is that, they are more fickle."
Thanks for reminding me...
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on November 13, 2024, 10:24:35 PMHofenbitzer has a very adaptive view of waistlines. He is drafting for females, but its completely likely men have similar variations.
I noticed that... But then women's bodies have completely changed over two generations. I remember patterns with a waist to hip ratio of 74 to a 100 cm (26 cm drop) as normal, whereas these days 80 to 100 is more realistic. In menswear lots of cuts barely have any ease and are worn skintight, in a way that calls for maybe a slightly "feminised" pattern setup?
Cheers, Hendrick
I remember men's styles would last 5-9 years. The skinny style last for 20-25 years is totally completely ridiculous.
Quote from: Hendrick on November 15, 2024, 04:40:07 AMIn menswear lots of cuts barely have any ease and are worn skintight, in a way that calls for maybe a slightly "feminised" pattern setup?
I have wondered about that. In the old forum, there were several discussions about the resistance to the appearance of darts in men's wear, as opposed to the improvements in cuts that darts would give. I reckon DZ made contibutions to such discussion.
Quote from: Schneiderfrei on November 15, 2024, 09:31:16 AMQuote from: Hendrick on November 15, 2024, 04:40:07 AMIn menswear lots of cuts barely have any ease and are worn skintight, in a way that calls for maybe a slightly "feminised" pattern setup?
I have wondered about that. In the old forum, there were several discussions about the resistance to the appearance of darts in men's wear, as opposed to the improvements in cuts that darts would give. I reckon DZ made contibutions to such discussion.
I suppose darts and chest hair go together? Remember Jason King?
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJnj1TFp/373px-Peter-Wyngarde-Allan-Warren.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJnj1TFp)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9DYtbBNX/6b6fe3276c4a2efc60db49799f2e0f83.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DYtbBNX)
(https://i.postimg.cc/yJnj1TFp/373px-Peter-Wyngarde-Allan-Warren.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yJnj1TFp)
I never saw him on Australian TV. But Ahh! The tiny shoulders. You would have to do something with that!
;)
Speaking of Jason King, erm ...
Love Harry Enfield ;) ;D 8)